Recent Fetus Events

[Ravens-Grin]

Discussion question, if you don't like them click back...

What do you feel the current events will have on the topic of abortion? The recent slaying of an 8 month pregnant lady in order for the culprit to receive the lady's fetus, which the fetus survived, as well as the recent Laci Peterson case which counted the fetus as a child, how could these cases have an impact on people's rights for an abortion? What are the social ramifications that will come frome these events?

[Maus]

Find me a state that allows the abortion of 8 month old babies in utero. Oh wait, you can't.

Only the wacko abortio rights extremists support anything like that. Most pro-choice people support a cut off of 3 months, maximum. I'm on the lower end, at 8 weeks.

[Ravens-Grin]

At 12/18/04 12:46 PM, Maus wrote: Find me a state that allows the abortion of 8 month old babies in utero. Oh wait, you can't.

Still the general populous doesn't think like that.

[awkward-silence]

I doubt that this will have any major ramifications. However, it is setting the stage for Bush to come after Roe V. Wade, when he gets control of the Supreme Court.

[LazyDrunk]

At 12/18/04 12:38 PM, Ravens_Grin wrote: Discussion question, if you don't like them click back...

What do you feel the current events will have on the topic of abortion? The recent slaying of an 8 month pregnant lady in order for the culprit to receive the lady's fetus, which the fetus survived,

Thought I'd give it a link just in case folk didn't know what you meant.

[LazyDrunk]

At 12/20/04 10:29 AM, -LazyDrunk- wrote:

Thought I'd give it a link just in case folk didn't know what you meant.

sorry, that last link was rotten. Real deal here.

[drDAK]

At 12/18/04 12:46 PM, Maus wrote: Find me a state that allows the abortion of 8 month old babies in utero. Oh wait, you can't.

Only the wacko abortio rights extremists support anything like that. Most pro-choice people support a cut off of 3 months, maximum. I'm on the lower end, at 8 weeks.

I'm "Shut up and worry more about you frikin' STDs first."

In other words I'm anti-abortion period.

[Maus]

At 12/20/04 10:36 AM, drDAK wrote: I'm "Shut up and worry more about you frikin' STDs first."

In other words I'm anti-abortion period.

I'd like to hear you say that to a 12 year old that's been raped by her stepfather. There are some apropriate situations for abortion.

[Memorize]

At 12/20/04 10:36 AM, drDAK wrote:
In other words I'm anti-abortion period.

Even in cases of Danger and/or Rape?

[drDAK]

At 12/20/04 10:44 AM, Maus wrote: I'd like to hear you say that to a 12 year old that's been raped by her stepfather. There are some apropriate situations for abortion.

I would say: "I'm sorry, but abortion is not the right answer."

There is always a c-section rather than abortion maus.
And the youngest girl to ever give birth was 5, so it's possible.

And what gives the mother the right to live over the baby? The fact that you can see her?

[LazyDrunk]

At 12/20/04 10:49 AM, drDAK wrote:

At 12/20/04 10:44 AM, Maus wrote: I'd like to hear you say that to a 12 year old that's been raped by her stepfather. There are some apropriate situations for abortion.

I would say: "I'm sorry, but abortion is not the right answer."

And she would say, "fuck you, I won't love this child, so I'm aborting it"

There is always a c-section rather than abortion maus.
And the youngest girl to ever give birth was 5, so it's possible.

That's not the point.

And what gives the mother the right to live over the baby? The fact that you can see her?

An incestuous baby, conceived via maliciousness and hate? How does the "purity of life" stand up to this?>

[drDAK]

At 12/20/04 10:59 AM, -LazyDrunk- wrote:
And she would say, "fuck you, I won't love this child, so I'm aborting it"

nah, thats more of what I'd tell you cause you just popped outta nowhere. besides, she's 12 you dork, like she would curse a guy off.
and "i won't love it?" whatever.

That's not the point.

yes it is, but it requires thinking. something i think you're on a short supply of.

An incestuous baby, conceived via maliciousness and hate? How does the "purity of life" stand up to this?>

So, does not mean the baby will be hateful. This is a reason to kill? "Because it was conseived out of....." shutup.
Some lazy excuse to abort is all that is.

[LazyDrunk]

At 12/20/04 11:04 AM, drDAK wrote:

At 12/20/04 10:59 AM, -LazyDrunk- wrote:
And she would say, "fuck you, I won't love this child, so I'm aborting it"

nah, thats more of what I'd tell you cause you just popped outta nowhere.

You just noticed me now?

besides, she's 12 you dork, like she would curse a guy off.

You fool. Have you no perception? Look back on those posts and re-read until you understand the meaning so I don't need to spell it out for you.

and "i won't love it?" whatever.

see above

That's not the point.

yes it is, but it requires thinking. something i think you're on a short supply of.

C-sections aren't abortions you ignorant ass.

An incestuous baby, conceived via maliciousness and hate? How does the "purity of life" stand up to this?>

So, does not mean the baby will be hateful. This is a reason to kill? "Because it was conseived out of....." shutup.
Some lazy excuse to abort is all that is.

You're a fool. You've demonstrated you have no drive to see both sides of the story. I'm not much into accusing people of being close-minded, but you sure as hell qualify.

[Maus]

At 12/20/04 10:49 AM, drDAK wrote: I would say: "I'm sorry, but abortion is not the right answer."

So you would force a 12 year old to go through drastic hormone changes that full grown women have a hard time dealing with (let alone a pubescent girl,) and then ultimately have surgery that may or may not leave her sterile? Let's not even talk about the long term mental scarring something like that would cause, and the social stigma.

There is always a c-section rather than abortion maus.
And the youngest girl to ever give birth was 5, so it's possible.

'Possible' doesn't make it right.

And what gives the mother the right to live over the baby? The fact that you can see her?

As I have posited before, and 8 week old embryo is not a baby.

[drDAK]

At 12/20/04 11:12 AM, Maus wrote:

At 12/20/04 10:49 AM, drDAK wrote: I would say: "I'm sorry, but abortion is not the right answer."

So you would force a 12 year old to go through drastic hormone changes that full grown women have a hard time dealing with (let alone a pubescent girl,) and then ultimately have surgery that may or may not leave her sterile? Let's not even talk about the long term mental scarring something like that would cause, and the social stigma.

I'm sorry, but life isn't fair. And killing to save your normal life is selfish.

There is always a c-section rather than abortion maus.
And the youngest girl to ever give birth was 5, so it's possible.

'Possible' doesn't make it right.

Possible doesn't make it right. EXACTLY! Just because abortion is possible does not make it right.

And what gives the mother the right to live over the baby? The fact that you can see her?

As I have posited before, and 8 week old embryo is not a baby.

Oh.... so what? is there a scale that says: This is not a baby yet, wait exactly 1 week and 3 days before it will finally be welcome into society.

And another way to make abortions scarce if we will not change it's laws is to crack down harder on child molestors and rapers. They need to have the option of death if their child they molested becomes pregnant or a bad case of STDs. I think we can all agree on that.

[Maus]

At 12/20/04 11:32 AM, drDAK wrote: I'm sorry, but life isn't fair. And killing to save your normal life is selfish.

It ceased being 'normal' the moment she was raped. To end the pregnancy would actually put her back on the road to a more normal life. Who is going to take care of this child after it is born? A 12 year old is in no shape to do it, that's for sure.

Possible doesn't make it right. EXACTLY! Just because abortion is possible does not make it right.

Opinion. We differ, oh well.

Oh.... so what? is there a scale that says: This is not a baby yet, wait exactly 1 week and 3 days before it will finally be welcome into society.

Yeah, pretty much. A mass of undeveloped tissue is not a human being.

And another way to make abortions scarce if we will not change it's laws is to crack down harder on child molestors and rapers. They need to have the option of death if their child they molested becomes pregnant or a bad case of STDs. I think we can all agree on that.

Oh, so killing the rapist is okay, then? They were babies once, too, you know. Killing the rapist doesn't change the child's pregnancy or health status. Talk about selfish measures.

Why not castration instead? I'm in favor of that over the death penalty for rapists and pedophiles.

[drDAK]

At 12/20/04 12:01 PM, Maus wrote:
It ceased being 'normal' the moment she was raped. To end the pregnancy would actually put her back on the road to a more normal life. Who is going to take care of this child after it is born? A 12 year old is in no shape to do it, that's for sure.

she would never become as you say "normal" after being raped.

Opinion. We differ, oh well.

yup.

Yeah, pretty much. A mass of undeveloped tissue is not a human being.

abortions are addicting maus. soon she will abort all the baby's she has and killing everything inside her because "it's not human".

Oh, so killing the rapist is okay, then? They were babies once, too, you know. Killing the rapist doesn't change the child's pregnancy or health status. Talk about selfish measures.

yes. they started the whole dang thing. better kill them (convicted persons) than innocent babies.

Why not castration instead? I'm in favor of that over the death penalty for rapists and pedophiles.

You know that the child molestors are seperated from the rest of the jailers? b/c they might get hurt? Well though luck. you raped a12-year old then you get beat up. end of story.

p.s. i am not in favor of the death penalty.

[Maus]

At 12/20/04 12:09 PM, drDAK wrote: she would never become as you say "normal" after being raped.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I said 'more normal.' Which means 'not all the way normal.'

abortions are addicting maus. soon she will abort all the baby's she has and killing everything inside her because "it's not human".

AH-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I'm sorry, that's one of the more far-out things I've heard in awhile.

yes. they started the whole dang thing. better kill them (convicted persons) than innocent babies.

Yet you actually don't think we should kill them. -_- Why even say it, then?

Why not castration instead? I'm in favor of that over the death penalty for rapists and pedophiles.

You know that the child molestors are seperated from the rest of the jailers? b/c they might get hurt? Well though luck. you raped a12-year old then you get beat up. end of story.

What in the name of Kali does that have to do with castration? Getting 'beat up' seems like a pretty pathetic punishment for the crime.

p.s. i am not in favor of the death penalty.

Yeah, yet you use it in this debate as a punishment method, along with getting beat up.

[FatherVenom]

At 12/20/04 10:49 AM, drDAK wrote: I would say: "I'm sorry, but abortion is not the right answer."

You're kidding right?

There is always a c-section rather than abortion maus.

That doesn't remove any portion of the psychological trauma.

And what gives the mother the right to live over the baby?

Having an established life identity, legal status, uniqueness, among other things.

At 12/20/04 11:04 AM, drDAK wrote: nah, thats more of what I'd tell you cause you just popped outta nowhere.

Roll with the punches. He's here so talk with him. Just because someone is new to the conversation doesn't make their point invalid.

she's 12 you dork, like she would curse a guy off.

You're kidding right?

At 12/20/04 11:32 AM, drDAK wrote: I'm sorry, but life isn't fair. And killing to save your normal life is selfish.

Killing an underdeveloped, 80% likely to die anyway, aggregate of cells is worse than destroying the mental health of the fully formed advanced life form and most likely the mental health of that new human should it develop? How do you ethically justify that?

This is not a baby yet, wait exactly 1 week and 3 days before it will finally be welcome into society.

It hasn't been legally established as I recall, but yes there is a point.

I think we can all agree on that.

No, I don't think we all can. Pro-choicers can still be against the death penatly.

[FatherVenom]

At 12/20/04 12:09 PM, drDAK wrote: abortions are addicting maus. soon she will abort all the baby's she has and killing everything inside her because "it's not human".

LOL! a slipperly slope argument
I haven't seen someone try one of these in a while.
Not that it's ever justified mind you.

they started the whole dang thing. better kill them than innocent babies.

Because rape babies grow up mentally stable and aren't more likely to kill themselves anyway.... oh wait, nuts.

[Z17]

At 12/20/04 10:44 AM, Maus wrote:

At 12/20/04 10:36 AM, drDAK wrote: I'm "Shut up and worry more about you frikin' STDs first."

In other words I'm anti-abortion period.

I'd like to hear you say that to a 12 year old that's been raped by her stepfather. There are some apropriate situations for abortion.

Do you realized how often that happens though? I wouldn't even imagine that 1% of 1% of all the abortions performed are even close to that. Most of them are little girls that screwed up and don't want to pay the concequences. Hell, they don't even have to tell their parents.

~Z~

[Maus]

At 12/20/04 01:37 PM, Z17 wrote:

At 12/20/04 10:44 AM, Maus wrote: I'd like to hear you say that to a 12 year old that's been raped by her stepfather. There are some apropriate situations for abortion.

Do you realized how often that happens though? I wouldn't even imagine that 1% of 1% of all the abortions performed are even close to that. Most of them are little girls that screwed up and don't want to pay the concequences. Hell, they don't even have to tell their parents.

Let me re-iterate what I said in my post:

There are some apropriate situations for abortion.

I realise that some abortions are unnecessary. That does not negate the thousands that get pregnant even when taking precautions, are raped, are in danger of losing their lives, are drug addicts, etc. I used an extreme to rebut his extreme, which was that abortion should never be used.

I seriously doubt that 'most' abortions are performed on minors.

[drDAK]

At 12/20/04 12:37 PM, FatherVenom wrote:
LOL! a slipperly slope argument
I haven't seen someone try one of these in a while.
Not that it's ever justified mind you.

no, it's never justified.
and?.....

[Z17]

At 12/20/04 01:47 PM, Maus wrote: I realise that some abortions are unnecessary. That does not negate the thousands that get pregnant even when taking precautions, are raped, are in danger of losing their lives, are drug addicts, etc. I used an extreme to rebut his extreme, which was that abortion should never be used.

I still don't understand why one would say that a baby that is a product of rape wouldn't be wanted. There are thousands of people that are waiting in line to adopt someone. Are a few months carrying around a baby, followed by a few hours of pain really more important than an entire life? I wouldn't say so.

I seriously doubt that 'most' abortions are performed on minors.

Alright, so take the "little girl" out of my statement and it still applies. Abortions rights are taken advantage of by the irresponsible, and abortion rights promote irresponsibility.

~Z~

[ReiperX]

At 12/20/04 12:09 PM, drDAK wrote:

At 12/20/04 12:01 PM, Maus wrote:
It ceased being 'normal' the moment she was raped. To end the pregnancy would actually put her back on the road to a more normal life. Who is going to take care of this child after it is born? A 12 year old is in no shape to do it, that's for sure.

she would never become as you say "normal" after being raped.

Somehow I doubt the child would become any more "normal" than a raped girl. The child would be put into a foster home more than likely, which slims its chances even more at having a decent life, and becomming a bigger burden on society. So I'd rather have the little girl living and have a chance at some mental recovery rather than a totally mentally scared child that knows she has a baby in the world created from one of the most disgusting acts.

Earlier you asked what makes the 12 year old have more right to life than a fetus? The fact that the 12 year old has made it 12 years outside their mother's womb, that if something happened that killed her it would scar her family and friends more than if she got the abortion. You can't honestly say that many people will truely miss a fetus rather than a little girl can you?

Opinion. We differ, oh well.

yup.

Yeah, pretty much. A mass of undeveloped tissue is not a human being.

abortions are addicting maus. soon she will abort all the baby's she has and killing everything inside her because "it's not human".

Do you have some evidence showing how addicting abortions are?

Oh, so killing the rapist is okay, then? They were babies once, too, you know. Killing the rapist doesn't change the child's pregnancy or health status. Talk about selfish measures.

yes. they started the whole dang thing. better kill them (convicted persons) than innocent babies.

And let the child grow up unloved if it even survives.

Why not castration instead? I'm in favor of that over the death penalty for rapists and pedophiles.

You know that the child molestors are seperated from the rest of the jailers? b/c they might get hurt? Well though luck. you raped a12-year old then you get beat up. end of story.

And that has what to do with this entire post?

p.s. i am not in favor of the death penalty.

Ok

[Maus]

At 12/20/04 02:00 PM, Z17 wrote: I still don't understand why one would say that a baby that is a product of rape wouldn't be wanted. There are thousands of people that are waiting in line to adopt someone.

I never said that. I said the person should not be forced to carry it to term if they don't want to.

Are a few months carrying around a baby, followed by a few hours of pain really more important than an entire life? I wouldn't say so.

I would say so in this case. I have the spectre of it looming over me. I know that I personally would not be able to carry a child to term if it were conceived that way. Can you say the same? I doubt it. Think about it. Nine long months, a constant reminder of something that is best put in the past. Can you imagine looking at your swelled belly and remembering being violated every day for nine months? And you couldn't drown your sorrows in anything stronger than herbal tea.

Alright, so take the "little girl" out of my statement and it still applies. Abortions rights are taken advantage of by the irresponsible, and abortion rights promote irresponsibility.

You ignored most of what I said. For every irresponsible woman that gets an abortion, there are others that use it for legitimate reasons.

Everything is taken advantage of by the irresponsible. I would rather they have an abortion now, than make it my problem later when the parents can't/won't take care of them, and they become leeches on the state.

How about a compromise solution, like if a woman has more than two abortions in three years, she be required to have Norplant? Or something similar?

[ReiperX]

At 12/20/04 02:00 PM, Z17 wrote:

I still don't understand why one would say that a baby that is a product of rape wouldn't be wanted. There are thousands of people that are waiting in line to adopt someone.

And there are thousands of kids in orphanages too wanting to be wanted.

Are a few months carrying around a baby, followed by a few hours of pain really more important than an entire life? I wouldn't say so.

As Maus stated, that is 9 months of constant reminders of what happened that night, something that needs to be put in the past. Plus the cost of the pregnancy that is unwanted, unneeded, and that the person did nothing wrong in the first place in order to cause is enormous. The girl's family is going to be paying those bills for a while. And while I have no evidence, I am willing to bet its safe to say that the child would have a much much higher chance of suicide during the pregnancy due to both the rape and the huge change in hormones and that would kill both the fetus and the child.

I seriously doubt that 'most' abortions are performed on minors.

Alright, so take the "little girl" out of my statement and it still applies. Abortions rights are taken advantage of by the irresponsible, and abortion rights promote irresponsibility.

And as Maus also stated, not all abortions are because of irresponsiblility. Its like welfare, it helps a lot of people legitimately, but also is taken advantage of by others. So do we say "fuck you" to all of the people who legitimately need the welfare to stop the people taking advantage of it? But I do like Maus's idea about the Norplant, or hell give them a historectime <sp> after so many abortions within a certain time frame.

That would take a lot of the irresponsibility out of it.

[Z17]

At 12/20/04 02:33 PM, Maus wrote:

At 12/20/04 02:00 PM, Z17 wrote: I still don't understand why one would say that a baby that is a product of rape wouldn't be wanted. There are thousands of people that are waiting in line to adopt someone.

I never said that. I said the person should not be forced to carry it to term if they don't want to.

Well, that's just a matter of opinion then. I don't understand why someone would kill a baby due to an inconvenience, but whatever.

Are a few months carrying around a baby, followed by a few hours of pain really more important than an entire life? I wouldn't say so.

I would say so in this case. I have the spectre of it looming over me. I know that I personally would not be able to carry a child to term if it were conceived that way. Can you say the same? I doubt it. Think about it. Nine long months, a constant reminder of something that is best put in the past. Can you imagine looking at your swelled belly and remembering being violated every day for nine months? And you couldn't drown your sorrows in anything stronger than herbal tea.

And you think that aborting the baby would leave you with a clear conscience? Constantly knowing that someone could have had a long and prosperous life, but they didn't. Would you say that's a little traumatizing as well?

You ignored most of what I said. For every irresponsible woman that gets an abortion, there are others that use it for legitimate reasons.

A "legitimate reason" is a matter of opinion.

Everything is taken advantage of by the irresponsible. I would rather they have an abortion now, than make it my problem later when the parents can't/won't take care of them, and they become leeches on the state.

Just because irresponsibility is common in other situations, doesn't make it right in this one. And I wouldn't call putting a child up for adoption making it a "leech" on the state.

How about a compromise solution, like if a woman has more than two abortions in three years, she be required to have Norplant? Or something similar?

Abortion is one of the few things that i'm really passionate about, and i'm not willing to make such a compromise. But teenagers aren't included in major government decisions, so it seems that i'm fresh out of luck.

~Z~

[DancingTurkeyGod]

At 12/20/04 11:32 AM, drDAK wrote:

At 12/20/04 11:12 AM, Maus wrote:

At 12/20/04 10:49 AM, drDAK wrote:

I'm sorry, but life isn't fair. And killing to save your normal life is selfish.

Abortion is selfish in a way, but not when your own life is in danger. Some people need abortions because their health isn't stable enough to carry through with the pregnancy.

There is always a c-section rather than abortion maus.
And the youngest girl to ever give birth was 5, so it's possible.

'Possible' doesn't make it right.

Possible doesn't make it right. EXACTLY! Just because abortion is possible does not make it right.

Hmm, by agreeing with Maus, you just discredited your own argument. Way to go.

Oh.... so what? is there a scale that says: This is not a baby yet, wait exactly 1 week and 3 days before it will finally be welcome into society.

I say it's not human until it breathes on its own. End of story.

drDak, you wouldn't be saying these things if you were a female. You have to put yourself in their place to understand why abortion should ALWAYS be legal in the case of rape. Are you very religious?

[ReiperX]

At 12/20/04 02:55 PM, Z17 wrote:

At 12/20/04 02:33 PM, Maus wrote:

At 12/20/04 02:00 PM, Z17 wrote: I still don't understand why one would say that a baby that is a product of rape wouldn't be wanted. There are thousands of people that are waiting in line to adopt someone.

I never said that. I said the person should not be forced to carry it to term if they don't want to.

Well, that's just a matter of opinion then. I don't understand why someone would kill a baby due to an inconvenience, but whatever.

Its a little more than an inconvienance. The cost, the higher likelyhood of the death of both the fetus and the mother rather than just the fetus and the mother being able to live her long life.

Are a few months carrying around a baby, followed by a few hours of pain really more important than an entire life? I wouldn't say so.

I would say so in this case. I have the spectre of it looming over me. I know that I personally would not be able to carry a child to term if it were conceived that way. Can you say the same? I doubt it. Think about it. Nine long months, a constant reminder of something that is best put in the past. Can you imagine looking at your swelled belly and remembering being violated every day for nine months? And you couldn't drown your sorrows in anything stronger than herbal tea.

And you think that aborting the baby would leave you with a clear conscience? Constantly knowing that someone could have had a long and prosperous life, but they didn't. Would you say that's a little traumatizing as well?

I don't think it would be nearly as traumatizing as carrying the baby to full term, that and the way that the person became pregnant in this case the abortion might even help her get over the rape.

You ignored most of what I said. For every irresponsible woman that gets an abortion, there are others that use it for legitimate reasons.

A "legitimate reason" is a matter of opinion.

Everything is taken advantage of by the irresponsible. I would rather they have an abortion now, than make it my problem later when the parents can't/won't take care of them, and they become leeches on the state.

Just because irresponsibility is common in other situations, doesn't make it right in this one. And I wouldn't call putting a child up for adoption making it a "leech" on the state.

Not all of the kids are adopted. These kids are a leech on the state.

How about a compromise solution, like if a woman has more than two abortions in three years, she be required to have Norplant? Or something similar?

Abortion is one of the few things that i'm really passionate about, and i'm not willing to make such a compromise. But teenagers aren't included in major government decisions, so it seems that i'm fresh out of luck.

~Z~

Thats the thing, in my years alive I have found that many times the best solutions are a compromise. But thats something that you may learn later.