To the creationists...

[VigilanteNighthawk]

I am curious, how many (if any) creationists who believe that God created the world, but that evolution is now acting to change life on earth? If you do believe, then please elaborate on how you feel the relationship between creation and evolution works.

[nXXt]

I'm an atheist...

[FUNKbrs]

At 12/3/04 03:26 PM, nXXt wrote: I'm an atheist...

Obviously you didn't bother to read the thread title, then. Try to make SOME contribution to the thread next time.

I believe the Bible is a copy of a copy of a copy of a story told by someone who heard the story from someone else who heard a story from an old man who acutally saw a bunch of stuff happen, added to various hallucinations had by old people who nevertheless many people listened to.

It has truth in it that can't be derived in any other way, but it's not an authority unto itself.

Until I hear of a theory on how time, matter, and energy all sprang out of ultimate nothingness, I'm going to have to be a creationist though.

[TheloniousMONK]

In order to merge Evolution and Creation, you have to understand that The Bible is not absolute on its quantitative values, much of it is metaphor, and that God is a omnipotent and omniscient being who is all-powerful and all-knowing.

It is also worth noting that The Bible never speaks of Evolution.

Now, and you will have to excuse me, I usually include scripture for arguments like these, but I have not the time or patience right now, it says in Genesis that God created the entire universe, the Earth, the critters and man all in seven "days" time. Notice that it says first he created the universe, then light, then the Earth, then the critters, and then lastly man. In other scripture in the Bible, it states something to the effect of "one day in heaven is but a thousand days on Earth." And, also, if you have ever read The Bible and studied it, you would find that ten thousand was sort of their maximum absolute value and was used qualitatively to describe a very large number. And, for instance, instead of saying hundreds of thousands or millions, they would say "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands."

Okay, so that is the raw information. Now, let's meld Evolution and Creation. We see in the course of those "seven days" the Universe was created gradually, starting with a suddent explosion of light (read Big Bang), which is in accord with theory. We know that the measurement of seven days is not absolute, and could very well be a number significantly larger in the magnitude of millions of years. So, when the Earth is formed, we see that a very large number of years later animals began to populate the Earth, then after another very large number of years man appeared. It is now obvious that this is very much like Evolution AND the Big Bang, the current theories of how the man and the universe came to be.

And now for the last part of the argument. God is all-powerful and all-knowing. As far as I am concerned, he can create the universe and man in any way he wants, and I am not going to ignore proven science.

[FUNKbrs]

Sorry Thel, noone's listening. They've all grown up listening to the Beatles "Strawberry Fields", and no amount of facts will change their minds.

[pielover87]

At 12/3/04 03:53 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Beatles

That is funny. Really, that is a good one. Thank you for my laugh of the day.

[supercubedude]

I'll believe evoulution when I see it for my self. When a human can shoot something out of their eyes, I will believe!

[Ravens-Grin]

Thelonius your argument is very strong. I can't deny that. The thing is I don't believe in theories for proving the existence of God because theories are all speculation. Another thing, I don't believe in the big bang theory. What I do believe is that the universe is constantly in chaos. Black holes constantly suck matter into an almost timeless "pit" and once it reaches it's optimal mass it'll excrete it's matter in a violent explosion, like almost the Big Bang theory. Except while this is occuring, other universes are co-existing. Basically it means that there was no beginning, only alterations of time do to extremely large masses and the interactions between supposed "differences of times" between different large bodies of matter.

I always say this whenever someone says something about the Big Bang theory so....

[AntiangelicAngel]

The whole theroy of creationism with evolution being employed as God's mean to make man is the way my Biology teacher at the Catholic high school I go to explained it. He said evolution is becoming more and more solid of a theroy, and obviously since many parts of the bible should not be taken literally, it can be assumed others that seem like maybe they should... shouldn't.

[Demosthenez]

Thel, damn. That really made me think. That is the first good argument I have heard about evolution and the Bible. I know I definatley believe in evolution, but not sure of creation. Maybe I will re-examine my beliefs...

And this is some wierd shit when you think about it. I have thought for a long time, where the hell did all the universe come from? What was before the big bang (if that really what it was)? What is it really like to reach the end of the universe? And how the hell is that possible there is a finite end? If there is a God, how the hell did he get there? Did anything make him? Kinda wierds me out when I start thinking along these lines and really how little we know of how the hell we are where we are.

[poxpower]

At 12/3/04 03:53 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Sorry Thel, noone's listening. They've all grown up listening to the Beatles "Strawberry Fields", and no amount of facts will change their minds.

look who's speaking, you said you're a creationist after saying "until something explains that time matter and energy sprung out of nothingness".
What created God then? You believe god sprung out of nothingness, and then created the universe?
That makes a lot less sense than supposing the universe simply existed on its own. Think about it for two seconds and you'll realise I'm right :o

If you can admit something has been here forever, then why would it be a god and not the Universe itself??

[poxpower]

At 12/3/04 03:49 PM, Thelonius wrote: blablabla

why even mention the bible????

Seriously, every time someone mentions the bible and puts it side by side with science, they stretch the scriptures as much as Goatse's asshole.
"Well a day might be any amount of time, actualy, hum.. yes I'm totaly right now this" "well light.. that's sorta like the big bang.. not really, but close enough". Anyways, they only think they have to "guess" in that is if god created man before or after animals, and following a simple narrative logic, anyone who has written the bible would write that god created the more global and less perfect things first and finished with the most perfect, man.
NOTHING TO DO WITH EVOLUTION WHATSOEVER

As for the "years" thing, they would have had to say like "on the first week he created light, then the next one he created the earth, and the the next day he created animals and plants, and at the last minute, man". Or something that respects proportions in some form or another for me to ever believe the bible has something to do with facts of evolution and creation of the Universe.

anyways -.-

[TheloniousMONK]

At 12/5/04 12:29 AM, -poxpower- wrote: If you can admit something has been here forever, then why would it be a god and not the Universe itself??

If the concept of God is true, omniscient, omnipotent, and quasi-omnipresent, then it is sensible to say God exists outside the physical realm and is therefore not subject to the laws of nature.

[Ravens-Grin]

At 12/5/04 12:20 AM, FAB0L0US wrote: And this is some wierd shit when you think about it. I have thought for a long time, where the hell did all the universe come from?

Let me answer with my beliefs, and I'll let Thel answer with his... Don't forget I have completely different beliefs from anyone that I know.

What was before the big bang (if that really what it was)?

Before the big bang was an unstable black star, but there were many universes occuring at the same time.

What is it really like to reach the end of the universe?

The end of the universe does not really exist. Gravitational energy is relatively weak in the surrounding area because of the going so slow in large masses, but once you get near the fringe of the universe, the pull from almost all of the gravitational energy would be too great to overcome and you'd be pulled back in. So you could go to the end of the universe, and it'd most likely look on one side a bunch of massive stars. But it'd be impossible to stay in this position for more then a second. The universe is continually combining and exploding. Combining into black holes and exploding from blackholes that can't contain themselves anymore. Stars that cannot contain they're matter is more typically seen because it emits detectable electromagnetic waves. These explosions are supernovas. For a black hole, the electromagnetic energy is so compressed(the wavelenghts of the pulses) that it looks almost like nothing. Don't take anything I say as fact, I still need to prove a lot of this stuff through math/observations.

And how the hell is that possible there is a finite end?

There's a possible finite end, but it is constantly changing. So in reality, there is not a constant definete end, but an evolving finite end.

If there is a God, how the hell did he get there? Did anything make him?

Ahh the who created the creator problem.

Kinda wierds me out when I start thinking along these lines and really how little we know of how the hell we are where we are.

Cool thing about thinking like that is that you can make things as simple(religion) or as complicated(all of the mumble jumble you'd like) but it has a simple reasoning. To explain why we're here.

[TheloniousMONK]

At 12/5/04 12:35 AM, -poxpower- wrote: blah, blah, blah

I was answering the question poised by the starter. Honestly, if you want to debate the merits of The Bible go for it. However, your crusade against Christianity's impact will be as light as the millions that have tried before you.

[Tripnosis]

to the people saying that existance had to be created from nothingness, you assume that god has been around forever, but since you think that existance and matteretc couldnt of just existed forever

how can you say god has been around forever and created existance and say that existance had to be created? couldnt it of been around forever just like god? and not had to of been created?

[Ravens-Grin]

At 12/5/04 12:44 AM, Thelonius wrote: However, your crusade against Christianity's impact will be as light as the millions that have tried before you.

Which is why only 33% of the world's population practices Christianity right? Because people haven't crusaded against it.

Oh and something about the US...

[poxpower]

At 12/5/04 12:38 AM, Thelonius wrote:

If the concept of God is true, omniscient, omnipotent, and quasi-omnipresent, then it is sensible to say God exists outside the physical realm and is therefore not subject to the laws of nature.

No :o
Logic is greater than god. You can't just bullshit your way out of this one and say "God doesn't obey to the laws of logic", it doesn't work that way. That's just you being ignorant and using the ultimate moronifier. "Well, GOD EXISTS, OK, EVEN IF YOU LOGICALY PROVE HE DOESN'T, OK, BECAUSE I SAID SO AND HE DOESN'T OBEY LOGIC, WHICH MAKES NO SENSE, BUT DOES, BECAUSE HE'S GOD" :o

Logic > God
And not just the Christian God, all gods.

Logic if your best friend, not the bible.

[Maus]

At 12/5/04 12:29 AM, -poxpower- wrote: You believe god sprung out of nothingness, and then created the universe?

Actually, we believe that God was always here. Infinitely. Nothing created God, they always were. Always.

It's a matter of Faith at that point, not proof. Which makes the argument now moot, IMO.

I have faith. You don't. End.

No better, no worse.

[TheloniousMONK]

At 12/5/04 12:41 AM, Ravens_Grin wrote: Before the big bang was an unstable black star, but there were many universes occuring at the same time.

You may need to elaborate more for me to fully understand what you mean here, but to my knowledge black stars are nothing more than "hollowed husks" of their original selves. Their radioactive core is burned out, so they no longer emit any sort of detectable radiation. If this is true, then it seems unlikely that a black star could therefore be unstable.

From what I have read, the multiverse theory could very well be reality.

The end of the universe does not really exist. Gravitational energy is relatively weak in the surrounding area because of the going so slow in large masses, but once you get near the fringe of the universe, the pull from almost all of the gravitational energy would be too great to overcome and you'd be pulled back in.

I am by no means an authority on physics, but the early Newtonian principle that the more distant two objects in space, the weaker the gravitational attraction between them still stands, to my knowledge. I would be very interested to see if you could produce a source that supports this claim.

So you could go to the end of the universe, and it'd most likely look on one side a bunch of massive stars. But it'd be impossible to stay in this position for more then a second.

If what you say is true, then it would be impossible to even reach the extent of the universe. The further out you went, the more energy would be required to continue. Infinite energy is an impossibility.

The universe is continually combining and exploding. Combining into black holes and exploding from blackholes that can't contain themselves anymore.

Yes, but string theorists believe blackholes do not explode, but rather gradually recede.

Stars that cannot contain they're matter is more typically seen because it emits detectable electromagnetic waves. These explosions are supernovas. For a black hole, the electromagnetic energy is so compressed(the wavelenghts of the pulses) that it looks almost like nothing.

Black holes are detectable; they emit radiation through quantum jitters, which is how they slowly lose their energy and "die."

Don't take anything I say as fact, I still need to prove a lot of this stuff through math/observations.

Nice to know we will be working in the same field.

[TheloniousMONK]

At 12/5/04 12:51 AM, -poxpower- wrote: Logic is greater than god. You can't just bullshit your way out of this one and say "God doesn't obey to the laws of logic", it doesn't work that way. That's just you being ignorant and using the ultimate moronifier.

I am the one being logical. Does nature support infinites? If the concept of God, above, is true, then he exists outside of nature. Quite simple, yes?

"Well, GOD EXISTS, OK, EVEN IF YOU LOGICALY PROVE HE DOESN'T, OK, BECAUSE I SAID SO AND HE DOESN'T OBEY LOGIC, WHICH MAKES NO SENSE, BUT DOES, BECAUSE HE'S GOD" :o

Good luck logically proving he does not exist.

[poxpower]

At 12/5/04 01:07 AM, Maus wrote: It's a matter of Faith at that point, not proof. Which makes the argument now moot, IMO.

No better, no worse.

BUT HERE'S THE CATCH

God is a magical being that doesn't obey the laws of the universe. He can do anything, see everything and all that bullshit. The Universe is just the Universe, acting under a certain set of laws that make it work. That's it. Nothing magical or extra-special beyond the fact that it would always have been there.

Now what's harder to beleive? That some magical being that no one can agree on was always there, yet at one point in the "always" decided to create something.... then he leaves it... then.. nope, makes no sense to me.

This is sorta like betting on one number at the Wheel in a Casino, while I'm betting on all the others :o You can call it faith, but I call it probabilities.

[drDAK]

Evolution is practically impossible...

How did our Hearts get in the center of our body so perfectly?

How did the mind stand the tallest for being the leader of the body, its nerves send orders throughout the body everywhere.... on accident?

I'm a creationist.

Anyhooo..... If evolution happened, would we have not evolved after the past millions of years of same?

Our bodies were not put in this order accidentally.
"accidentally" to create something this smart. Humans were designed to be leaders of animals PURPOSELY.

[poxpower]

At 12/5/04 01:10 AM, Thelonius wrote:

If the concept of God, above, is true, then he exists outside of nature. Quite simple, yes?

but since he cannot exist outside of nature or logic, the concept is false, hence making it useless to cite it all the time and to pretend like its a possibility, when it isn't.

[Maus]

At 12/5/04 01:13 AM, -poxpower- wrote: Now what's harder to beleive? That some magical being that no one can agree on was always there, yet at one point in the "always" decided to create something.... then he leaves it... then.. nope, makes no sense to me.

See, in my belief, they didn't 'leave.' They left us be. Free will. They are still there with us, just not directly influencing the world as we know it.

Like I say...I have faith. I can't explain it.

[TheloniousMONK]

At 12/5/04 01:16 AM, -poxpower- wrote: but since he cannot exist outside of nature or logic, the concept is false, hence making it useless to cite it all the time and to pretend like its a possibility, when it isn't.

1) It is quite possible to exist outside of nature. Look up the multiverse theory if you require a scientific method to wrap your mind around this concept.

2) Go back to minesweeper. Your logic is defficient for this argument.

[drDAK]

At 12/5/04 12:29 AM, -poxpower- wrote:
What created God then?

Nothing. He is superior and has never had a parent to have authority over him.

:You believe god sprung out of nothingness, and then created the :universe?

No. He was never born, you think kinda shallow, like: GOD HAS TO OBEY OUR LOGIC. Wrong, he created logic so we would not be so confused about the world around us. Since confusion was brought into us through the Apple Adam ate.

That makes a lot less sense than supposing the universe simply existed on its own.

Where did we come from!!!??? We ARE a soul! This soul came from something! You are a soul, not a body, not a mind.

:Think about it for two seconds and you'll realise I'm right :o

*Thinks about it longer than two seconds*, Nahhhhh... your pretty much shallow on your Logic thinking and wrong. But, you question everything like God, which could be good, but God cannot be understood.

Everything we understand is something of equal or less value. We understand how we work, we understand how small and big creatures work. However, God is beyond our comprenshion, he does not have a body, but is the strongest, he has no mind, but is the smartest.

If you can admit something has been here forever, then why would it be a god and not the Universe itself??

Vise-versa dude.

[Demosthenez]

Man, I wish I was good enough at math, or not so lazy, to be good at quantum physics. That shit I have read about string theories and anthropic principle and all that crazy stuff looks SOOOO cool to learn. I dont know why, but it looks awesome, no matter how nerdy it is.

Oh well. I'll stick to things I understand, basketball and video games.

[poxpower]

At 12/5/04 01:21 AM, Maus wrote:

Like I say...I have faith. I can't explain it.

well in that case, its the same as saying "we all have a destiny, even though we make choices that seem of free will, they aren't, we all make things in a pre-programmed manner"
like, so what?

If the existance of god doesn't even have an impact on anything, why even bother?

At 12/5/04 01:21 AM, Thelonius wrote:
1) It is quite possible to exist outside of nature. Look up the multiverse theory if you require a scientific method to wrap your mind around this concept.

What theory? The strings? The 11 dimensions? Whatever it is, it works inside of rules that cannot be broken, and that set of rules is "nature", and nothing can exist outside of all rules and logic, because as soon as something exists, it exists withint a certain set of rules, or it wouldn't exist.
So you can't have a god that exists outside of all rules without not existing, its a paradox, and no, God cannot win against the paradox just because you say so.
If there is a God, he exists within a certai set of rules, and therefore obeys the logics of that universe.

[TheloniousMONK]

At 12/5/04 01:28 AM, -poxpower- wrote: If there is a God, he exists within a certai set of rules, and therefore obeys the logics of that universe.

Congratulations. You just figured it out.