Gobble Gobble...

[IllustriousPotentate]

Happy thanksgiving, everybody.

All this turkey has me thinking...is the turkey a more fitting symbol of this nation than the bald eagle, as Ben Franklin offered?

--We're stupid. Just like turkeys looking up and drowning in the rain, instead of getting out of it, we've meddled in the Middle East and international affairs, instead of getting out of it or trying a different approach to curb terrorism.

--We're stuffed. We're one of the most obese nations in the world, and we waste a lot.

--We're grounded. Like the turkey, we are not able to fly off into the 21st century. The turkey has its weight holding it back, but our country, however, is weighted back by the moral majority who denies rights despite the fact that they have no effect on them.

--We're vulnerable. As 9/11, and previous and subsequent terror attacks have demonstrated, we are prone to terrorism. Our metaphorical neck, our well-being, can be chopped off at anytime by the metaphorical axe, terrorism, including biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. And it doesn't help any that we take such an antagonistic approach to preventing it, as aforementioned.

As you can see, we have a great deal more in common with the turkey than the bald eagle. All of the traits of the bald eagle--nobility, strength, valor, integrity, intelligence, are no longer valid. The only thing left in common with our current national symbol, the bald eagle, is that both it and our nation are endangered species.

Thoughts?

[nemoibi]

i agree with what ur saying....i just wonder what would have happened if bush didn't get his second term...and instead nader actually got into office....u think we'd get the nobility and valor back? or would we still be turkeys?

[Doran]

From a cynical perspective, yes the United States would be better represented by the turkey and I believe that the United States should bear the turkey as its symbol as a punishment for being so dumb, fat, and slow. I think the turkey is a better symbol now than when Ben Franklin suggested it and it would be great to use it now, but two hundred years of tradition kind of prevents the changing of the US symbol. Besides that, the eagle represents the ideal that the US represents: freedom. Though, I question whether or not we have freedom anymore because of the wonderful civil rights atrocity bill known as the Patriot Act. Personally, I would like to have the bear as the symbol (suggested by T. Roosevelt) because it shows that we don't attack unless provoked, but we can't possibly use that now.

[IllustriousPotentate]

At 11/25/04 11:24 PM, nemoibi wrote: i agree with what ur saying....i just wonder what would have happened if bush didn't get his second term...and instead nader actually got into office....u think we'd get the nobility and valor back? or would we still be turkeys?

No, if we elected Nader we'd have to change the symbol to a dodo bird.

[TheShrike]

Another name for this topic: RANT OF DISCONTENT #200132

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.

So what do you propose? How should it be fixed? I'm growing weary of people stating the obvious over and over, never really providing a solution. Or even proposing one.

[CountPoopoo]

At 11/26/04 01:28 AM, TheShrike wrote: I'm growing weary of people stating the obvious over and over, never really providing a solution. Or even proposing one.

Then good luck with being alive.

[IllustriousPotentate]

At 11/26/04 01:28 AM, TheShrike wrote: So what do you propose? How should it be fixed? I'm growing weary of people stating the obvious over and over, never really providing a solution. Or even proposing one.

But this isn't about solving, or even proposing a solution to the problem. It's about changing the symbol of this nation to something more appropriate, that fits the nation and its problems.

Is this somewhat on the petty side? Yes. But remember this--there's no telling how many taxpayer dollars are wasted every year when legislatures go through all sorts of brouhaha creating official state flowers, fossils, rocks, possums (Georgia's official state possum is Pogo). If they can waste taxpayer money and legislating time with this crap, what's wrong with a discussion of the symbols, and what they should(n't) be on the BBS?

[TheShrike]

At 11/26/04 02:00 AM, IllustriousPotentate wrote: But this isn't about solving, or even proposing a solution to the problem. It's about changing the symbol of this nation to something more appropriate, that fits the nation and its problems.

If you believe, even for one second, that the sensibility of the mob will triumph over it's pride on an identity issue, you are the greatest fool alive.

If they can waste taxpayer money and legislating time with this crap, what's wrong with a discussion of the symbols, and what they should(n't) be on the BBS?

What I was trying to communicate is that I don't see any purpose here. This topic just feels like a typical bash <insert noun here> thread, with a holiday theme. There's no real purpose. There's no real point. This topic boils down to whining/complaining. It isn't progressive or even interesting. It does not live up to the most vague definitions of those words. Are you talking to hear yourself speak? If not, what's the point for this thread?

[IllustriousPotentate]

At 11/26/04 02:31 AM, TheShrike wrote:

If not, what's the point for this thread?

The point is this...what good does it do to have symbols that no longer symbolize what they are supposed to?

It reaches far beyond turkeys and bald eagles and that crap.

The nation that we live in has long been the standard bearer for prosperity, freedom, advancement, progress--"a city on a hill", if you will. Most Americans continue to look at our nation this way. However, those with an outside perspective know differently.

America's economic growth is bested by many countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_gro_199
It's even worse when you look at real GDP growth.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_rea_gro_rat&int=-1

Freedom House thinks that there are many countries with as much personal freedom as the United States.

Our strength has obviously been belied by 9/11 and our foreign policy in Iraq, where we can't even take control of a small third world country.

Sure, we're still a superpower, but a superpower that is on a decline.

What do outsiders and cognizant individuals in this country get that most Americans don't? Simple--they are not motivated by red white and blue stars and stripes bald eagle liberty bell disposaganda. We're able to look beyond that, and realize that there are problems with this country, as described above. Most Americans though, through the social climate of the current times, are dwarfing the substantial problems of the US by comparing them to those of say, Afghanistan or Iraq, or overlooking problems for the sake of "unity", or refusing to believe that people might have other reasons to be against us, other than out of jealousy. They see the crying bald eagle, and American flag flying, and Ground Zero.

What's the solution for the nation's problems? The reason that none are offered is because all of the solutions are destined to fail if people are so glazed over with patriotism and symbolism that they fail to recognize the problems with the country. There's no incentive for people to correct problems if they don't see any.

The misuse of symbolism has to go. Change our 'mascot' from the majestic eagle to the lowly turkey. Stop showing the bald eagle swooping over a mountain scene, start showing a turkey rummaging around in a polluted, suburbanized marsh. Stop showing the flag flying at half mast, start showing the soldiers who died for a mistake instead. Stop showing the Statue of Liberty, start showing the prisoners held at Gitmo without trial. Stop with the school children reciting "liberty and justice for all", start showing the people denied rights due to sexual orientation, the minorities arrested due to racial profiling. Stop showing what we should be, start showing what we are.

[TheShrike]

At 11/26/04 03:29 AM, IllustriousPotentate wrote: The point is this...what good does it do to have symbols that no longer symbolize what they are supposed to?

Symbology in relation to governments is not about properly reflecting the character of the country, regardless of what you may have been told.

The flags, the banners and idols (eagles) are to give the weak-minded a sense of pride. That is the purpose they've always served. All throughout history. Making those symbols lame and weak would only further any problems that lay beneath that surface. See also human psychology and self-confidence.

All these symbols also give the more discerning minds a sense of comraderie. Making these symbols lame... just read previous paragraph's last two sentences again.

But I don't think you really mean to change the eagle into a turkey, afterall...

...[some stuff about the decline of the american superpower]...

You want to make the country worthy of the eagle.

My opinion is that aimlessly attacking the symptoms is no way to bring about change. Any good doctor will tell you that.

People aren't blind. Conservatives and Liberals, Authoritarians and Libertarians alike would agree that america is facing some troubling times.
Again, I say you are merely whining and complaining. Discussion and debate are fine. But you do not offer that. You offer blind criticism and the verbalization of your personal guilt for being born here.

And I just don't give a fuck about that. I'm interested in discussing possible solutions, both radical and subtle. Your topic does not satisfy that hunger. It actually intensifies the hunger pangs for one who has been on a fast-food diet of insubstansial things like finger-pointing and name-calling for far too long.

I want a meal. Not this McWHINE shit.

[IllustriousPotentate]

At 11/26/04 05:30 AM, TheShrike wrote:

At 11/26/04 03:29 AM, IllustriousPotentate wrote: The point is this...what good does it do to have symbols that no longer symbolize what they are supposed to?

Symbology in relation to governments is not about properly reflecting the character of the country, regardless of what you may have been told.

On the contrary.

The flags, the banners and idols (eagles) are to give the weak-minded a sense of pride. That is the purpose they've always served. All throughout history.

Find some people. Do show them pictures of say, a flag, the Statue of liberty, the bald eagle, and do some word association with them. I'm sure you'll get plenty of responses such as "America", "freedom", "liberty", etc. That's not from pride, it's because those objects are symbols of those terms.

If the whole purpose of symbolatry is to instill pride, then why aren't our symbols greater than what they are now? Wouldn't Americans be more proud of a better song than the hard-to-sing, lengthy Star Spangled Banner? If this is the case, what's with the 50 stars and 13 stripes on the flag?

You want to make the country worthy of the eagle.

Yes.

My opinion is that aimlessly attacking the symptoms is no way to bring about change. Any good doctor will tell you that.

Acknowledging that you have a problem is always the first step towards solving it. You can't solve a problem if you don't know you have one.

People aren't blind. Conservatives and Liberals, Authoritarians and Libertarians alike would agree that america is facing some troubling times.

Yes, but many of them dismiss them as "not as bad as _______" or "having to put them aside to support our country".

Again, I say you are merely whining and complaining.

The only whining I've heard is from you about this thread.

Discussion and debate are fine. But you do not offer that.

But yet we're discussing and debating the significance of symbolism right now.

You offer blind criticism

I've described the problems I think the nation has, and backed them up with examples. I'm not just going out saying OMG America SUX LoL.

and the verbalization of your personal guilt for being born here.

Don't ever say that again. I thank God that I am born in this country, I love it and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. If I didn't, I wouldn't care if it got better or worse.

I'm shocked and disappointed in you, Shrike. I thought you, out of all people, would realize that criticism of something does not mean you hate something.

And I just don't give a fuck about that. I'm interested in discussing possible solutions, both radical and subtle.

I gave you a solution: make symbolatry more accurate. I also said that there is no possible solution until that is done, which leaves you to counterpropose a solution, or create a solution that can work without changing national symbols. You've done neither. All you've done is ignored my solution while neglecting to make one of your own, while falsely whining about me not presenting any solutions.

I want a meal. Not this McWHINE shit.

Then stop whining.

[AlexFan]

I don't understand why you can imagine the people's thought outside USA.But it seems you are very sane .USA. is one of the greatest countries in the world , and is most powerful contry.I do not agree that war is the only approach to settle the issue with another country , we need peace , no blood any more.

[drDAK]

At 11/25/04 11:24 PM, nemoibi wrote:

:....i just wonder what would have happened if bush didn't get his second term...and instead nader actually got into office....

The newspaper comic called the "Parahana Club" did a short series about Kerry and Bush losing and Nader becoming President (Mainly about how screwy and gay of an enviormentalist left-wing he would be).

You should have seen it to understand how a Nader Presidency would be.

[lapslf]

At 11/26/04 08:32 AM, AlexFan wrote: .USA. is one of the greatest countries in the world

why?

[drDAK]

At 11/26/04 03:05 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

At 11/26/04 08:32 AM, AlexFan wrote: .USA. is one of the greatest countries in the world

why?

Why?

1. We are one of the wealthiest nations of the world.

2. We have an equally fair two-party system. Giving you choice.

3. This is a great, big, powerful Republic (Not a democracy).

4. There is freedom. Lots of it.

5. Our willing and brave soldiers over seas help keep peace.

6. Idiotic and meaningless questions like yours are free to be asked.

I could go on. But I won't. Because that's another freedom that I have.

[lapslf]

At 11/26/04 03:10 PM, drDAK wrote:

At 11/26/04 03:05 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

At 11/26/04 08:32 AM, AlexFan wrote: .USA. is one of the greatest countries in the world

why?

Why?

1. We are one of the wealthiest nations of the world.

At the cost of other nations. Yeah, great country.

2. We have an equally fair two-party system. Giving you choice.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Yes, great choice! TWO PARTIES!!! WOW!!! This bullshit election system of yours only allows two fucking parties to be able to get elected. Now that's democratic.

3. This is a great, big, powerful Republic (Not a democracy).

And that's great because....?

4. There is freedom. Lots of it.

Yes, the patriot act is a good example of that. Pfah, you people aren't even allowed to smoke pot.

5. Our willing and brave soldiers over seas help keep peace.

Yeah, just look at how peaceful iraq and afghanistan are right now.

6. Idiotic and meaningless questions like yours are free to be asked.

Just like in every Western country. Big deal.

I could go on. But I won't. Because that's another freedom that I have.

Yeah, I think I already have a clear view of why your country is so great :-p

[mrpopenfresh]

Yeha but the bald eagle is a fitting symbol as well. It's vicious, much like the USA, opportunistic, much like the USA and downright dirty, mush like the USA.
Most of you will probbaly disagree with the things I said about the bald eagle, but this is pretty much why Benjamin Franklin thought a turkey would be a better symbol than that voracious bird that prays.

[drDAK]

At 11/26/04 03:16 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

:1. We are one of the wealthiest nations of the world.

At the cost of other nations. Yeah, great country.

And where the hell are you from dude?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Yes, great choice! TWO PARTIES!!! WOW!!! This bullshit election system of yours only allows two fucking parties to be able to get elected. Now that's democratic.

Republic. Dumb ass.

And that's great because....?

There is freedom. Lots of it. Damn straight.

Yes, the patriot act is a good example of that. Pfah, you people aren't even allowed to smoke pot.

...yup. that's a good thing we filter pot-heads like u guys.

Just like in every Western country. Big deal.

That's only one.

Yeah, I think I already have a clear view of why your country is so great :-p

I hope u have one.
But I don't think u do.

[Maus]

At 11/26/04 07:36 AM, IllustriousPotentate wrote: Find some people. Do show them pictures of say, a flag, the Statue of liberty, the bald eagle, and do some word association with them. I'm sure you'll get plenty of responses such as "America", "freedom", "liberty", etc. That's not from pride, it's because those objects are symbols of those terms.

Hum. Then why were we inundated with images of the American flag, and people across the country plastred them on cars, houses, lawns, businesses, etc., et. al. ad nauseum, after 9/11. That was pride, pure and simple. Arrogant pride, even, because the majority of those people didn't even take care of that symbol of PRIDE. I can't tell you how many ratty, wind torn flags I still see hanging off of cars.

[lapslf]

At 11/26/04 03:24 PM, drDAK wrote: And where the hell are you from dude?

If you took the exhausting effort of checking my profile you didn't have to ask that question.

Republic. Dumb ass.

Doesn't make it any less of a stupid system.

There is freedom. Lots of it. Damn straight.

Nope, there isn't. You can get locked up without a trial because of not liking your government. You're not allowed to smoke pot, marry someone of the same gender and you can get locked up without a trial because the government suspects you might have ties with terrorists.

...yup. that's a good thing we filter pot-heads like u guys.

It still means less freedom

That's only one.

I don't understand what you mean here.

I hope u have one.
But I don't think u do.

I believe thinking isn't one of your strongest capabilities. Oh, and by the way, you may be a wealthy country, but you have millions of people under the poverty line. In most Western- European country's you have practically none.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 11/26/04 07:36 AM, IllustriousPotentate wrote:

Find some people. Do show them pictures of say, a flag, the Statue of liberty, the bald eagle, and do some word association with them. I'm sure you'll get plenty of responses such as "America", "freedom", "liberty", etc. That's not from pride, it's because those objects are symbols of those terms.

..no...no, i'm pretty sure that is pride.

If the whole purpose of symbolatry is to instill pride, then why aren't our symbols greater than what they are now? Wouldn't Americans be more proud of a better song than the hard-to-sing, lengthy Star Spangled Banner? If this is the case, what's with the 50 stars and 13 stripes on the flag?

It's because of (and your going to love me using this against you) what those things symbolize. Get it? It's just like shrike said.

My opinion is that aimlessly attacking the symptoms is no way to bring about change. Any good doctor will tell you that.

Acknowledging that you have a problem is always the first step towards solving it. You can't solve a problem if you don't know you have one.

Yes...that's true. But you aknowledged it...and aknowledged it...and aknowledged it...and aknowledged it. Every day, people just like you spend thier time aknowledging the same thing.

It's like a bunch of doctors, standing around, drinking coffee, and watching a man die from aids. And all the doctors have to say is 'yup...he sure is sick.' 'Yea, very sick.' 'I think he might die'.

[drDAK]

At 11/26/04 03:31 PM, Veggiemeal wrote: I believe thinking isn't one of your strongest capabilities. Oh, and by the way, you may be a wealthy country, but you have millions of people under the poverty line. In most Western- European country's you have practically none.

So tell me, your country is great cause....
You got pot.

Oh, yeah.

Having a law saying that high crackheads are 100% legal makes your country superb.

Well, this makes me stunned.
I don't think your leader (God knows who he is) agrees with the fact that pot makes a country great.

The things that make a country great are:
Economy
Support (America supports its troops)
and unity. (Working on post-election crap)

[Maus]

At 11/26/04 03:49 PM, drDAK wrote: Having a law saying that high crackheads are 100% legal makes your country superb.

Crack is not legal in the Netherlands. Pot is not 100% legal, either. I dare you to go there, and light up a spliff while walking down the street. Their marijuana laws are much more sensible than ours are, though. What is so horridly wrong with me taking a few bong hits at home?

[drDAK]

I would answer had I not been watching the A&M v.s. Texas Game.
Pot still doesn't make a country great.

[Maus]

At 11/26/04 04:29 PM, drDAK wrote: I would answer had I not been watching the A&M v.s. Texas Game.
Pot still doesn't make a country great.

I didn't say it did. i was merely pointing out the fallacy of your statement about crackheads, and how their marijuana laws are saner than ours.

Believe me, I'm proud to live here, although some changes direly need made. One, our electoral system sorely needs an overhaul, as well as a lot of our domestic policies, which have fallen by the wayside in these times of invasion and occupation.

One of the first things that needs shaking up is our educational system. We are graduating some of the most ignorant people in the world, and they are to go on to be our leaders. The young liberals make fun of Bush's verbal foibles, and most can't string together a compound sentence. In Ohio, a protracted battle has been fought about school funding. The system has been ruled unconstitutional, because is it based off of property tax. The higher the property tax, the more money the district gets. That means poor people get outdated books, while rich people get brand new Macs in the computer lab every few years. Suggest that we pool the money together and distribute it evenly, and the people in rish neighborhoods have a fit, claiming that it is unfair. Classism, anyone?

The second thing that need shaking up is our Children's Services programs. Florida just loses kids, Ohio kills them through incompetence. They allow people unfit to care for a pet, let alone a child, take government money to neglect and abuse children. Those children are our future. Meanwhile, Ritchie McRich Rich adopts foreign babies, letting the American ones languish in foster care. Brilliant, no?

>:|

[Samuel-HALL]

At 11/26/04 04:41 PM, Maus wrote:

our electoral system sorely needs an overhaul

uh huh...i'll refrain from making assumptions...and ask you 'why?'

Suggest that we pool the money together and distribute it evenly, and the people in rish neighborhoods have a fit, claiming that it is unfair.

It...is..unfair. You're talking about a major redistribution of the wealth in our nation. And that's silly.

[Maus]

At 11/26/04 04:46 PM, Damien3003 wrote: It...is..unfair. You're talking about a major redistribution of the wealth in our nation. And that's silly.

It's a caste system based on class. You're saying that kids don't deserve an equal opportunity at an education because they were born into a poor family?

The Supreme court of Ohio has already declared several times over that the current way of hoarding the wealth is unconstitutional.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 11/26/04 04:51 PM, Maus wrote:

At 11/26/04 04:46 PM, Damien3003 wrote: It...is..unfair. You're talking about a major redistribution of the wealth in our nation. And that's silly.

It's a caste system based on class.

That's too bad, for anyone who disagrees. A major redistribution of wealth defeats the point of capitilism. Why work hard and save money, only to have it stolen and given to the poor?
I say, fuck that whole robin hood way of thinking. It might make things easier, for poor people...but it's not fair to anyone who works hard.

You're saying that kids don't deserve an equal opportunity at an education because they were born into a poor family?

Welcome to capitilism.

The Supreme court of Ohio has already declared several times over that the current way of hoarding the wealth is unconstitutional.

So you get it passed in one state? That's tough luck for any wealthy people living in ohio...but you'll never get it passed in the majority of the country. And you'll NEVER get it passed in my home state of virginia...so my money is safe.

[Maus]

You know what you get when there are a shitload of dumb, poor people? More people on welfare, sucking resources from the government. OOPS, looks like they're stealing your money! Wouldn't it make more sense to raise a generation of self sufficient people, instead of driving a bigger wedge between the classes?

[TheShrike]

At 11/26/04 07:36 AM, IllustriousPotentate wrote:

At 11/26/04 05:30 AM, TheShrike wrote: Symbology in relation to governments is not about properly reflecting the character of the country, regardless of what you may have been told.

On the contrary.

You're wrong. Mislead. It's only advertising. Budweiser is never going to air a commercial where everyone has fun until they're too sloppy or sick to remain functional.

Acknowledging that you have a problem is always the first step towards solving it. You can't solve a problem if you don't know you have one.

-At 11/26/04 03:46 PM, Damien3003 wrote:

Yes...that's true. But you aknowledged it...and aknowledged it...and aknowledged it...and aknowledged it. Every day, people just like you spend thier time aknowledging the same thing.

It's like a bunch of doctors, standing around, drinking coffee, and watching a man die from aids. And all the doctors have to say is 'yup...he sure is sick.' 'Yea, very sick.' 'I think he might die'.

Again, I say you are merely whining and complaining.

The only whining I've heard is from you about this thread.

Obviously you aren't paying attention to your own words.

and the verbalization of your personal guilt for being born here.

Don't ever say that again. I thank God that I am born in this country, I love it and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Not even Fiji, or some other warm pacific isle? I wouldn't mind living in some tropical paridise, truth be told.

I'm shocked and disappointed in you, Shrike. I thought you, out of all people, would realize that criticism of something does not mean you hate something.

I never said you hate anything. Show me where I said that, and I'll give you a dollar. You speak of the disgust you have for the way symbols are perveted, now listen to me speak for a moment on the perversion of words and their meanings. HATE is a strong word. How can you claim that I say you hate anything when I have not said anything like that? I said you want to make America worthy of the eagle, and this somehow translates into me saying you hate america? Are you nuts?

I gave you a solution: make symbolatry more accurate.

That isn't a solution, it's foolishness.