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At 10/14/04 05:26 PM, TomFulp wrote: Last night I went to the pre-opening party for a new bar in Brooklyn: BARCADE! One of the owners is Tim's brother - Tim is the guy who manages our servers here at NG! If you are in the Brooklyn area, be sure to check out Barcade. It's got great atmosphere and tons of arcade games - all from the 80s and only $0.25 to play! It is the best feeling I've had at any bar in a long time. Ross (former NG database guy prior to Liljim) nabbed the high score for DIG DUG. Our friend Bob totally owned Arkanoid. I sucked at everything. I also drank a lot.

Ubisoft sent me one of their latest PC games, a presidential campaign simulator called The Political Machine. You take the roll as campaign manager for a US Presidential nominee. It features all the current characters and issues - strategy game fans and political minded types will learn a lot and have tons of fun playing this!

The gang at Warner Bros. sent me the season 1 DVD for MAD TV. If you've never seen it, you should definitely check it out! If you have seen it, you have probably bought the DVD by now - but if not, go grab a copy! It's one of the best sketch comedy shows out there!

Yeah, I'll do anything for free stuff... But it's all REALLY GOOD free stuff. :)

Yeah, anything.

Is it just me or is Tom slowly turning the casual mood of newgrounds into a business? Like how he just let the lego thing passed, like how he's advertising other groups for 'free gifts'? Seems to me like Tom's slowly turning into a sellout. Oh I know it doesn't seem that way, it's just that they're glad they're getting these cool things, and these companies are being nice to them, so why not return the favor? It's all fun and nice, right? Right?

Nope, it's really just inconspicuous. Morality and ethics slip as one is exposed to new situations and put in new shoes. Newgrounds may or may not start hosting more ads per page, may put more pressure on stickers, maybe a "premium member"s option is going to be the trick, or maybe a forced visit to a sponsor sight before being able to continue. At one point or another, they'll lay the drop on that. They might not do that, they might be thinking clearly enough to continue their community and freedom focus, but already some things are slipping up, and I know that if Tom and Wade don't keep a perspective on they're values and original dreams for newgrounds as a whole, which they haven't been keeping as much perspective on lately, well, I don't want newgrounds to end up like another empty shell of site made entirely for the purpose of demanding money from it's visitors.

I may just be paranoid. They may be keeping they're ethics perfectly fine, and not slipping like so many rulers have into corruption. They may be doing fine. They may not even be remotely close to this. They may have even sworn against it. I don't know. I have no actual knowledge of the matter, but what I think is that Tom and Wade are still being realistic and truthful about their opinions and motivations, they're still clean, but they're coming quite close to losing that bar of soap.

The thing is that newgrounds is Tom's creation, and he can plug whatever the hell he wants on the main page. But yes, the plugs for satellite radio DJs and other products is starting to clog up the front page. I don't know about calling Tom a sell out just yet.

My advice, ignore it if it bothers you.

At 10/15/04 06:29 PM, Skizor wrote: Is it just me or is Tom slowly turning the casual mood of newgrounds into a business? Like how he just let the lego thing passed, like how he's advertising other groups for 'free gifts'? Seems to me like Tom's slowly turning into a sellout.

it's called making MONEY off of your creation. anyone would do the same thing. it's called making a living.

At 10/15/04 08:39 PM, madhatt3r wrote:

At 10/15/04 06:29 PM, Skizor wrote: Is it just me or is Tom slowly turning the casual mood of newgrounds into a business? Like how he just let the lego thing passed, like how he's advertising other groups for 'free gifts'? Seems to me like Tom's slowly turning into a sellout.

it's called making MONEY off of your creation. anyone would do the same thing. it's called making a living.

*Sigh* To begin with, I agree he has a right to put anything he damn well pleases on his website, freedom of speech, first amendment, I know.

Secondly... making money off your creation, huh? Well, Tom's making plenty of money earning to earn a living right now, and while I'm perfectly fine with him trying to get more (that's what greed is for, folks!), what I DON'T LIKE is the freedom and quality of newgrounds going down as a result.

Why do I think the freedom and quality of newgrounds is going down as a result of Tom just 'trying to make money which is perfecty acceptable'?

Save money and time by not fighting for the right for users to submit movies even involving legos and the background, that's example one. Tom advertising anyone who gives him stuff example two. Newgrounds becoming more money oriented lately with contests, example three. Oh yeah, and whatabout that crafty move tom made, y'know, the news that was an underhanded excuse to coax us into buying serius corporation stock!
Lemme just quote this for clarity:

" I'm also really tempted to buy some Sirius stock... Right now it's at $3.35 per share, but has gained 22% today. At a low price like that, it seems you could make a killing! I would imagine it will at least double by the end of today. "

Uhuh, that's just him rambling in his head, he's just putting that on the news for absolutely no good reason because he feels like it! Right, I'll believe it when I see it. Y'know what happens when someone else buys stock in a company you already hold stock in? I'll tell you what. Your stock value goes up. And even if that's not enough, the company being invested in becomes more secure, helping you in the end anyway. So Tom just mysteriously out of the blue makes a statement suggesting how great it would be if we all bought sirius stock right now. He says he hasn't bought stock, but I doubt it, I bet he already bought a good few shares before announcing this, just so the value would go up even more. And not only that, but doing so is illegal, if that's what he did. There's not enough evidence to make a case, but it's strange nonetheless. That's the fourth example.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not under the delusion that I'm going to force tom to stop here. I can't do that. He's allowed to say whatever he wants, and do whatever he wants here, it's his website. I know that. And I know it's not like he's doing anything particularly illegal or evil by trying to make a few bucks (except in the possible case of part four.)
What I AM against, is Tom allowing the freedom, fun, quality, community, and promotion of young artistic and programming skills here at newgrounds to deteriorate because of greed. It hasn't happened in any significant way yet, it might not happen at all, but it's happened in visible ways.

I'm not sure whether you guys think you're loyally defending your great friend tom here, and if you do, I don't know why. Even if this was a viable enough attack that it merits response, if that was the case, how could you defend it with idealistic images of tom? I'm not being mean to your pal tom, if I'm right, then I'm not the one mean here, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not saying that "TOM SHOULD BE FORCED TO BE A GOOD LITTLE BOY!" I'm just saying that there's a level of evidence pointing towareds a level of greed leaking into NG, and while greed is fine on it's own, if it begins to affect newgrounds negatively, I don't like it. I don't like it at all. It's my opinion that Tom is somewhat leaning in the direction of being a sellout for his previous ideals, he hasn't yet, but he may, that's my opinion, and you can't argue that unless you have proof of his innocence. Which judging from the type of accusation I'm launching, proof would be quite hard to find, unless you can prove that you can read tom's mind.

Just my paranoia, for all I know it could be wrong, innocent until proven guilty, but who says I can't have my suspicions. I get to voice my opinion about tom, just as much as he can voice his opinion.

-Skizor

*Sigh* To begin with, I agree he has a right to put anything he damn well pleases on his website, freedom of speech, first amendment, I know.

Secondly... making money off your creation, huh? Well, Tom's making plenty of money earning to earn a living right now, and while I'm perfectly fine with him trying to get more (that's what greed is for, folks!), what I DON'T LIKE is the freedom and quality of newgrounds going down as a result.

yea i gotta agree with you there he can do whatever he wants and making money is just a thing of life (if not tom would be poor and this website would fall as a result) and if in his position just about ANYONE would do the same thing (if offered free stuff and money). the only thing we users here at newgroundsw can do is wait and persuade (speling) Tom in the direction of "not selling out" but ultimatly it's his decision, if the sites freedom and fun continues to go down we can either accept it or leave (even tho they both sound shitty) as for the whole "Stock Sales" thing im not too sure about that but it does sound kinda fishy.

At 10/16/04 02:38 AM, mushroomsamba17 wrote: *Sigh*
what I DON'T LIKE is the freedom and quality of newgrounds going down as a result.

Well, its only one thread that is this way, promoting a friends buisness deal, A guy who obviously helps us alot here at newgrounds, and the bar sounds realy cool, If i was in newyork, i'd find a way to go. So the point is, get over it. Whether we know it or not, we spend most of our lives handing out endorsements of products.

At 10/15/04 06:29 PM, Skizor wrote:

At 10/14/04 05:26 PM, TomFulp wrote: Boo hoo I don't like Tom advertising on the front page :(

Flash by Skizor:
- none -

So STFU no one gives a damn about your opionion!

At 10/16/04 04:17 AM, mar_go wrote:

At 10/15/04 06:29 PM, Skizor wrote:

At 10/14/04 05:26 PM, TomFulp wrote: Boo hoo I don't like Tom advertising on the front page :(

Flash by Skizor:
- none -

So STFU no one gives a damn about your opionion!

Stop spamming dude - your gonna get banned if you keep carrying on like that

sounds sweet dude

At 10/16/04 04:17 AM, mar_go wrote:

At 10/15/04 06:29 PM, Skizor wrote:

At 10/14/04 05:26 PM, TomFulp wrote: Boo hoo I don't like Tom advertising on the front page :(

Flash by Skizor:
- none -

So STFU no one gives a damn about your opionion!

I love the irony in this:
Flash by mar_go:
- none -

Why is my opinion any less important if I haven't spent hundreds of dollars to spend a good few weeks learning and making flash to submit to newgrounds? Huh? Why does my opinion make any less sense if I haven't made flash? I've seen plenty of people post who have made flash, and they're still jackasses. I suppose your argument might be that I can't complain about something on newgrounds if I haven't done anything to improve newgrounds myself. But that doesn't make sense either, I can't call newgrounds bad if it begins to go that way, because I haven't done anything to improve it, right? Does that mean newgrounds a better website just because I haven't done anything to improve it? That's completely contradictory! Next time have your arguments make sense before you present them.

And even IF your argument wasn't contradictory, even IF my opinion was "worthless", you haven't submitted any flash either, so your opinion about mine being worthless would be worthless about mine. That's another entire circle of useless hypocrisy. When you find a real flaw in my argument, then maybe I'll "shut the fuck up".

At 10/16/04 02:43 AM, ArtistJ wrote:

At 10/16/04 02:38 AM, mushroomsamba17 wrote: *Sigh*
what I DON'T LIKE is the freedom and quality of newgrounds going down as a result.

Well, its only one thread that is this way, promoting a friends buisness deal, A guy who obviously helps us alot here at newgrounds, and the bar sounds realy cool, If i was in newyork, i'd find a way to go. So the point is, get over it. Whether we know it or not, we spend most of our lives handing out endorsements of products.

ArtistJ, generally I respect you a lot as a poster, and I still do, I just don't agree with your post. :)

Multiple threads actually, the lego one, the stock one, and this one, and I'm sure if I spent the time to dig through the news, I'd fine a few, but not many, because this trend has only started happening recently. Either way, it's not like I have this horrible grudge which I'm obsessing over, it's just an opinion which I'm defending, you don't tell a democrat or a republican to "get over" their political party, because that's not the nature of the opinion. This is less of whining, as it's not just saying how "Oh it sux so bad!", then I ought have to get over it, as that would be making a fuss over something little, but just responding to attacks on my opinions, and holding beliefs is no little matter, and besides, I'm having quite a fun time defending them.

Sure, we spend most of our lives handing out endorsements of products, and yes, tom has helped us a lot, and I'm glad for that. But does that change in anyway that tom has been letting newgrounds slip by doing it more and more? Does that mean his motives are entirely altruistic, just because bob across the street is any worse?

And this is just for most of the people who have been jumping at me in general:

You've got to understand. I KNOW I'm geetting to enjoy newgrounds free. I KNOW that tom has done a lot for our entertainment. I KNOW that it's his website and he gets to do whatever he pleases, and that's it's his kindness that allows me to post on this board, and for some reason, I'm not entitled to have a theory because of it. For some unknown reason, I'm not allowed to dislike it when I think newgrounds is beginning to enter a declination. I don't see why this is.

If anything, I OUGHT to be sad if we lose all these wonderful freedoms and niceties that everyone constantly spouts about tom being humanitarian enough to give us. I don't enjoy the double standard you're all holding here. If you all appreciated newgrounds and it's greatness as much as you say you do, I'm sure you wouldn't like it if you thought things were beginning going down. Tom's been nice to us, and we should be kissing his toes for it? Well in that case, why is it wrong to be sad when he's not so absolutely cordial, if we valued his gifts before so much? Should we have some sort of loyalty that forces us to hold a blind eye to everything he does to betray it? More contradiction.

Listen, I know I Tom owes me nothing, but when he does something that means less fun for us, that doesn't mean I have to like it.

My goodness.. Tom is a regular guy, he's not conspiring to do some insider trading. He advertises on this site mostly to create funds to run Newgrounds. Look at how many hundreds (thousands maybe?) of flash cartoons are stored on Newgrounds.. That must cost quite a bit to maintain, especially considering how much traffic they get.

Besides, even if Tom did get some money from Newgrounds, who cares? Good for him! He's earned every penny. I don't see many people up and starting entire communities like this every day.. If I stand up for Tom, it is because I admire what he has accomplished.

At 10/15/04 10:26 PM, Skizor wrote:
Just my paranoia, ....

-Skizor

I agree, You're Paranoid.

Firstly your remark about Tom not Defending the little man with the Lego Bullshit. You might not have been around. But Tom has had many Bouts on Legal matters and properties, where you here when he spent thousands of his own money defending the Charlie Brown Parodies?.. Do You think he should fight this fight alone? Are you willing to help him? What about all the legal hassle Tom gets from Flash with copyrighted music? Did Tom turn the other way? Quite the Contrary, the man went on to create the 'Audio Portal' yet another avenue for creativity. Seriously a few Half Assed Lego flashes are not going to Hinder the Portal in anyway. Infact that Lego Fiasco is only a Fraction of the Legal threats That Tom speaks of Publicly. Every time some Dufus decides to animate sticks to some copyrighted material.
Your remark that Tom is letting Newgrounds Slide because he is supposedly allowing flashes to be removed is Unfounded. Newgrounds attracts the biggest and the Best in Flash animators, and programmers, while still making it inviting and engaging for the hobbiest or enthusiasts. Some of the Best Flash/ games to date have come out of newgrounds in the recent years. This in part to some of the restrictions you whine about now, those same restrictions that have helped create a more productive commuity with more focus.
The result? Better Flash animations and Games.
So what if Tom Plugs a few Items from some distrubutors. He's been running this site with no help from anyone going on Ten years now. If Big brand companies are finally recognizing the Flash culture as a viable market, it manly because of sites like Newgrounds. It sure as hell isn't because of you.
and If Tom ever decides to make a VIP section for newgrounds, then more power to him, Sign me da' fuc up. When you have Creeps like Illwillpress, making hundreds off his DVDs, and the Xombie creator
going Bigtime, Or even RAB creator beggin for handouts. the truth to the matter is, there are tons of other artist selling out for the Allmighty buck, all because of Newgrounds, then shit, why shouldn't Tom?

But here's the funny part, one needs only to Venture out to other Flash Sites, to realize. that in fact Tom hasn't.

While you make think I'm a loyalist, I'm not .
I simply been around long enough, and know more about whats going on behind the scenes, to know that no matter how knowledgeable and pretentious your post may be...

You're merely talking out your ass.