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I blame the jews. For the mongols.

At 1/13/08 08:34 AM, Earfetish wrote:

For the record, both the guy you're quoting and RedSkunk are right in a way. The Qur'an does permit violence and it does instruct that (some) unbelievers are slain, but all passages have a caveat in the general vicinity that emphasize the defensive nature of the wars. I'll cite a few passages that relate to war and violence and underline the caveats that focus on defensive fighting, I'm using the Pickthall translation because that way I can more easily copy several verses at the same time, otherwise you could use this compilation of three translations which also includes the Pickthall translation (haven't done this for a while).

2:190-192 - "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

About the Munafiqûn from the fourth sura that you menioned,
4:89-91 - "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them. Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.'

4:94 - "O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: "Thou art not a believer," seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever Informed of what ye do."

8:59-61 - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged. And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower."

9:1-5 - "Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. "

9:13 - "Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first ? What! Fear ye them ? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers"

22:39-40 - "Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty. "

47:4 - "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain. "

At 1/13/08 08:57 AM, lapis wrote:

At 1/13/08 08:34 AM, Earfetish wrote: Read Surah 4.

Could you name anything in particular that you consider to justify violence against "those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk", or "hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace" (90)?

Preceding that is:

"They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them."

So it's quite obviously, kill the unbelievers UNLESS they have a covenant with you.

Following 90 is:

"Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."

So, kill all the non-believers who don't have a peace-treaty with you.

People say I take the Qu'ran out of context, but I'm the one providing the context for your quote here.

At 1/13/08 09:37 AM, Earfetish wrote: So, kill all the non-believers who don't have a peace-treaty with you.

Yes! Exactly! And if they incline to peace, you make it (8:61). So these non-believers must have attacked you, making the war defensive. How were you providing context for me here?

At 1/13/08 09:41 AM, lapis wrote: Yes! Exactly! And if they incline to peace, you make it (8:61). So these non-believers must have attacked you, making the war defensive. How were you providing context for me here?

So... you can use the Qu'ran to justify 9/11 then?

At 1/13/08 09:43 AM, Earfetish wrote:

At 1/13/08 09:41 AM, lapis wrote: Yes! Exactly! And if they incline to peace, you make it (8:61). So these non-believers must have attacked you, making the war defensive. How were you providing context for me here?

So... you can use the Qu'ran to justify 9/11 then?

That varies on your interpretation of these verses, but I'd say no. The attackers did not represent the umma but only a fraction of it. The Muslim world as a whole was not at war with America, Hell, they're close allies of Saudi Arabia among a whole bunch of other Islamic countries. So I don't think they had any right to claim to be the sole defenders of Islam in this situation. But they probably considered themselves to be the only true Muslims in a sea of kufr.

I have to say, Surah 4 doesn't read like a passage in a 'religion of peace'. Disbelievers are always called 'the enemy'.

4:101 - In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you
4:104 Relent not in pursuit of the enemy.

Like, it totally seems to be pushing for a world where everyone either brokers treaties with Islam or is killed by it.

And Surah 9 seems to be pushing the idea that treaties with non-Muslims can be invalidated willingly and should only be gained when the Muslims have the upper-hand.

And if I was in the Middle East pre-9/11, I'd definitely feel like America didn't have a treaty with me. There is also a striking lack of stated difference between America's military wing and people working in an office-block. They're all still 'nonbelievers without a treaty' who can be justly slain.

Maybe it would be a worthy point to say Islam justifies Total War, every war.

At 1/13/08 09:53 AM, Earfetish wrote: 4:101 - In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you

In truth, religion, they are your enemies. So, Muslim, take heed and refeain from worship if you travel through the lands of the kufâr and you fear that they may attack you.

Like, it totally seems to be pushing for a world where everyone either brokers treaties with Islam or is killed by it.

Well, yeah.

And Surah 9 seems to be pushing the idea that treaties with non-Muslims can be invalidated willingly and should only be gained when the Muslims have the upper-hand.

I disagree, it annuls the treaties with those who broke said treaties or aided the enemies of Islam, a treaty is never to be broken by a Muslim but when the people who you're at peace with violate these treaties then they no longer have value.

And if I was in the Middle East pre-9/11, I'd definitely feel like America didn't have a treaty with me.

Then how was America fighting Islam per se according to you, instead of just fighting some factions that were Islamic while at the same time allying with other factions that were also Islamic?

Maybe it would be a worthy point to say Islam justifies Total War, every war.

Total War refers to a war against a population as a whole instead of just the military, Total War was restricted by Abu Bakr who, for example, forbade the killing of women and children. And I think wars are only legitimised by the Qur'an against people who attack you first (in a military way), against people who aid those who attack you or people who persecute you because of your religion. To quote another few of my favourite verses:

60:8-9 - "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong- doers."

Actually, I think a somewhat large part of the reason why the Middle East is fucked up can be attributed to all the various cultures over the years who have raped and pillaged their way through the region to serve their own ends. That means the Romans, the Mongols, the Europeans, the Ottomans, the Europeans again, the U.S. and the Soviets, and various others.

But, I think we can mostly chalk it up to the Middle Easterners themselves, for constantly squabbling over the past 3000 years or so.

At 10/10/04 10:51 AM, LightningRider wrote: Weren't the Aztecs in South America?

No, they were in Mexico.