Objectification of Women

[Proteas]

I was sitting around channel surfing last night, when I came across the Miss America Pangeant on (I believe it was) CBS. And I thought to myself, "Now here is a true spectacle; self respecting adult females dressing up in luxurious clothing (gowns, bikini's and the like), prancing around on stage in a beauty contest."

Then the thought occured to me; The Miss America pangeant is allowed on T.V. and no one complains about it because it's a staple of American Televison. But when something like the Victoria's Secret fashion show comes on, so called "Upstanding Citizens" throw an all unholy shit fit because it "Objectifies Women" and isn't wholesome family entertainment.

Am I the only one who see's something deeply wrong with this?

[RedSkunk]

They should really just throw out all the sections except for the bikini contest. I mean really, why else would anyone watch?

[Montgomery-Scott]

women were ment to be objects. ever hear of a dowry? in olden times, a woman was worth aproximately 3 goats and a cow.

[ZeroAsALimit]

Personally, I hae nothing against the objectification of women. In fact, sometimes I'm like that, but other times I'm quite sweet. I alternate, but who's to say that I'm wrong for objectifying a woman. Besides, chances are that the women who complain of this objectify men.

[FatherVenom]

At 9/19/04 12:55 PM, Proteas wrote: And I thought to myself, "Now here is a true spectacle; self respecting adult females dressing up in luxurious clothing (gowns, bikini's and the like), prancing around on stage in a beauty contest."

Why do you think you respect themselves?

Am I the only one who see's something deeply wrong with this?

Some women validate themselves by being objects of lust. It makes them feel good about themselves. So why should we try to lessen their pursuit of happiness?

[Tommy]

I can't see why people complain about miss America being degrading, i mean the girls who take place in it choose to do so and enjoy it, the only people who have a problem, are probably the girls who have no self confidense in them selfs , Sorry if i rambled then but theres my 2 cents.

[Montgomery-Scott]

YEAH!!!! ONLY UGLY GIRLS DON"T LIKE MISS AMERICA!!!!!!

[SIG-1]

At 9/19/04 02:14 PM, Quanze13 wrote: YEAH!!!! ONLY UGLY GIRLS DON"T LIKE MISS AMERICA!!!!!!

yeah ugly girls like u <JK> no its though damn over religios cristains, they rune eveything that is remotly sexul! (can't spell sorry)

[SIG-1]

At 9/19/04 02:59 PM, Tal-con wrote:

At 9/19/04 01:23 PM, Quanze13 wrote: women were ment to be objects. ever hear of a dowry? in olden times, a woman was worth aproximately 3 goats and a cow.

Well, we're not in olden times anymore. Man, are you an idiot? Are you trying to get flamed by all the females on Ng?

there art many females on ng, woman make up about 1/20 of ng users

[drmooski]

How dare you insult the miss america pageant! It is wholesome and family oriented, these women are talented role models! you should be ashamed.

[drmooski]

just kidding, yeah, a lot of the talent conest is just a shroud to get hot women on stage in lengerie (spelt right?), it really is mysognistic( spelt right again?).

[Samuel-HALL]

So, to carry on this conversation...what are some instances when you feel women ARE objectified?

Porno? Victorias secret lingerie shows?

I believe that whether it be porno, a buety pagent, a stripper, or a lingerie show...if the women intentionally and willingly goes into it...then it is not demoralizing or objectifying. If it's a choice, then there is nothing wrong with it.

[The-Deadly-Spoon]

another case of shit hopocricy in American society.. ah well, just be glad you get to watch hot girls in bikinis.

[The-Deadly-Spoon]

At 9/19/04 01:54 PM, ZeroAsALimit wrote: Besides, chances are that the women who complain of this objectify men.

true, thats why I dont like feminists

At 9/19/04 02:05 PM, FatherVenom wrote: Some women validate themselves by being objects of lust. It makes them feel good about themselves. So why should we try to lessen their pursuit of happiness?

Aye! if women are not forced to pose as objects, I dont see the problem about it. Hell there are a lot of women making crap loads of money doing it, whats bad about that?

[Wraith]

At 9/19/04 06:54 PM, Tal-con wrote: And how does this justify you saying that women should be treated like objects?

You misunderstood them. Quanze never said women should be treated like sex objects, he said they once were treated like sex objects. And ShadowFox was only pointing out that there aren't that many female users to begin with. Don't be so aggresive.

At 9/19/04 07:12 PM, Tal-con wrote: This is why i despise pornography of all kinds.

But not everyone who watches pornography treats women like objects. You probably have just as much of a chance of getting someone in that state of objectification by having them watch prime-time television.

It's inherent in our society. Sex sells, so advertisers and virtually all mainstream media play to certain images and stereotypes in order to make more money. The women participating may not feel like they're being objectified, but the people that run the whole thing will encourage that image anyway. You can't just blame any one thing for encouraging this practice, you have to look at the bigger picture.

[pierrot-le-fou]

At 9/19/04 07:12 PM, Tal-con wrote: I disagree, even though it may not be objectifying to the woman who chooses to participate in pornography, it definitly objectifies woman to the person who is viewing it.

How? When I watch porno, I don't go "Jenna Jameson, the next time i see you, i'm going to give you five dollars for a BJ and then slap you on the ass like the guy did in the video."

Let me explain, if one were to masturbate often and constantly be surrounded by pornography, that person would have a higher chance of treating women like objects, not lke human beings.

Well first off, thats just sad if someone hordes porno and surrounds themself with it until climax.

Chances are that the people that do that kind of shit would never openly come out and do the same crap on the street. It's not exactly something that is looked up too in society.

Hentai is no exception, especially in all those poses that makes it seem as if the woman is gettin raped. This is why i despise pornography of all kinds.

What are you doing watching hentai rape movies?

[RedSkunk]

At 9/19/04 02:08 PM, Tom_s00 wrote: I can't see why people complain about miss America being degrading, i mean the girls who take place in it choose to do so and enjoy it,

So if a woman chose to remain in an abusive relationship, that's totally alright too?

[GooieGreen]

At 9/19/04 07:54 PM, red_skunk wrote: So if a woman chose to remain in an abusive relationship, that's totally alright too?

It's her own fault for staying it. She has a will. She picked that relationship. Is the abuse right? No, but she made that mistake to stay in that relationship and she has to fix it or live with it.

[niffweed17]

At 9/19/04 07:54 PM, red_skunk wrote:

At 9/19/04 02:08 PM, Tom_s00 wrote: I can't see why people complain about miss America being degrading, i mean the girls who take place in it choose to do so and enjoy it,

So if a woman chose to remain in an abusive relationship, that's totally alright too?

well, yes, although that's downright stupid in my opinion.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 9/19/04 07:12 PM, Tal-con wrote:

At 9/19/04 04:36 PM, Damien3003 wrote: I believe that whether it be porno, a buety pagent, a stripper, or a lingerie show...if the women intentionally and willingly goes into it...then it is not demoralizing or objectifying. If it's a choice, then there is nothing wrong with it.

I disagree, even though it may not be objectifying to the woman who chooses to participate in pornography, it definitly objectifies woman to the person who is viewing it.

That depends. Are you talking about softcore porn? How about hardcore porn?
Women AND men have sex. People may not want to admit it, but that goes on in bedrooms all across america, brother. It shows women...what...having vaginal intercourse? Having anal sex? Being with another woman? These things happen in real life.
I could see what you're saying when it comes to bestiality, pretend rape, etc. Because people don't typically enjoy those things. That doesn't actually happen in many bedrooms, and it's degrading.

Let me explain, if one were to masturbate often and constantly be surrounded by pornography, that person would have a higher chance of treating women like objects, not lke human beings.

Are you ignorant? Is this how you are? Are you that impressionable?
I've experienced huge amounts of porno in my day...yet i have a girlfriend that i've been with for a year. It's not even a question of if i 'treat her right' or not. It doesn't even need to be asked. It's an ignorant concept that because i've looked at a lot of porn, i somehow treat women with less respect.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 9/19/04 07:54 PM, red_skunk wrote:

At 9/19/04 02:08 PM, Tom_s00 wrote: I can't see why people complain about miss America being degrading, i mean the girls who take place in it choose to do so and enjoy it,

So if a woman chose to remain in an abusive relationship, that's totally alright too?

She chose it. If she has a choice to leave, it's no one's fault but her own. Obviously, if the husband has her locked in the basement...i'm not reffering to that.
She made a choice, and she is suffering the consequences that came with it. She can change it, but chooses not to.
She deserves no sympathy or justification.

[alurbasebelungtomoie]

At 9/19/04 09:18 PM, Damien3003 wrote: She can change it, but chooses not to.
She deserves no sympathy or justification.

See, that's what I'm getting at. Your view is entirely naive and simplistic. In the perfect world, we would all be able to get out of abusive relationships. If we all thought rationally, we wouldn't stay with abusive boyfriends.

In the perfect world, where everyone thought rationally, we would all marry once, have two kids, carpool to work, and sit on the PTA board.

If we all were coherent and rational, we wouldn't buy lottery tickets, or do drugs, or gamble or smoke.

But guess what, humans are not rational beings. You can pretend like everything is perfectly simple, but you're likely to come off as an incredible hypocrite.

The woman in the abusive relationship deserves sympathy, because she does not know how to leave the relationship. It's easy for you or me to sit here and just say, "well, the trite bitch could just walk out," but things aren't as simple as that in the real world.

Now, to try and bring things back to my original point - it doesn't really matter if a woman entering a swimsuit contest is doing so on her own accord. Saying that they are doing it freely and willingly doesn't really help anyone's point. It doesn't prove jack. Of course a woman raised in such a society won't think of it as demeaning. But it's still in my mind objectifying and demeaning women. They're reduced to a hunk of meat, walking around in skimpy bikinis, that you want to fuck. Simple as that.

The women in these cases have already been socialized into the popular mindset. Oftentimes, blacks during slavery truly believed that they were inferior to whites. They were told such every day, and thus believed it.

Would you seriously contest the fact that such notions of racial superiority are wrong, on many levels? Even if everyone involved believed in it?

If a woman is told that she's a simple sexual object, placed on this earth for the sole purpose of gratifying men's sexual desires, what will make her feel good about herself? Would it seem odd to go out and act as such?

You realize that when we label people slow, retarded, whatever, and put them into "special" classes, we further inhibit them? They become of the mindset that they are too stupid to learn, to lead meaningful lives, and we create even stupider drones.

You think every 'valley girl' out there is really that stupid? No, they've adapted and conformed to society's notions - of what a blonde is suppose to act like, of what women are suppose to act like.

Rappers rap about killing and drug-dealing because popular society tells them that blacks are violent and base creatures.

-

I ramble, and I'm trying to put acouple points across, I think. But this is a response to a lot of crap I see on these forums. Everyone can talk about how rational and simple everything is. Perhaps people on these forums need to get out and experience actual life more. Everything isn't cut-and-dry, black-and-white. No one here ever thinks critically, everything has to be reduced to the barest, lowest level around here.

Another problem with these boards, is everyone feels the need to jump to one side or another. Liberals against conservatives and vice-versa, on every damn issue. I guarantee you that half of the people arguing on any thread on here, are doing such simply because someone of "the other side" said the opposite earlier.

as a postscript, plz don't expect any more replies from me damien, I'm on a self-imposed vacation from here for a week or so..

[FatherVenom]

At 9/19/04 09:12 PM, Damien3003 wrote: Are you ignorant? Is this how you are? Are you that impressionable?

Maybe, but I'm still with Tal-Con on this one. The majority of the population isn't as enlightened as you or me or even most of the posters who happen to post on the politics board. The majority is like the average NG user. They are that depraved and impressionable. Look at the number of fan boys that LF and piconjo have. People will follow dumb ideas just because they are ideas and porn, that is degrading to women, because some of it is more degrading to men, is an idea.

Of course the operative word Tal-Con used was chance.

[EnragedSephiroth]

I say bring out the women in scant lace.

[Wraith]

At 9/20/04 06:42 PM, Tal-con wrote: I never said all of them either, i said that person would have a higher chance, not a definite one.

Ah.

Every person i've met who has willingly admitted to masturbation has shown dysfunctions in his behavior one way or another. though i have no proof of my statements, i speak through my personal experiences.

And if medical science is right, we all probably have some underlying disease that twists our personality. After all, what is normal? What is the condition that they all set the bar at? If he exists, I've never met him. Every person I've ever met has some form of problem. Black, white, male, female, masturbator, non-masturbator, they've all been messed up somehow.

So I guess there is no universal "normal" as we know it, just the norm for each individual.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 9/19/04 10:54 PM, alurbasebelungtomoie wrote:

At 9/19/04 09:18 PM, Damien3003 wrote: She can change it, but chooses not to.
She deserves no sympathy or justification.

See, that's what I'm getting at. Your view is entirely naive and
In the perfect world, where everyone thought rationally, we would all marry once, have two kids, carpool to work, and sit on the PTA board.

So...you're long winded speech really boils down to this : Even though she knows what kind of relatioship she is in; even though she does not enjoy abuse; even though she has every oppurtunity to leave...she still deserves sympathy? Why? What is binding her to her current relationship? If she doesn't like it, she can leave. Are you saying that if you were in an abusive relationship, you would not be able to figure out a way to leave?
Perhaps i'm not the one being naive here...

The woman in the abusive relationship deserves sympathy, because she does not know how to leave the relationship.

How does she not know how to leave? Is there not a door to her house? Does not an outside world exist?
Perhaps it is only her own ignorance, and refusal to accept the circumstances of her choices. If she didnt want the relationship, she'd walk out the fucking door.

Now, to try and bring things back to my original point - it doesn't really matter if a woman entering a swimsuit contest is doing so on her own accord. Saying that they are doing it freely and willingly doesn't really help anyone's point. It doesn't prove jack.

Sure it does. The women in the swinsuit competition has a right of choice. If she chooses to enter into the contest, it's no one's fault but her own. She is not forced to. And if you asked her, she would not say 'oh yea, i'm such a piece of meat. I mean really, all i'm good for is sex'. You won't find one single female anywhere who would make that statement. She enters into it because she enjoys it...or she wants the prize (whatever the prize may be)...or because she wants the fame. She does not enter into it because she 'wants to thought of as a piece of meat'. That's an ignorant concept.

They're reduced to a hunk of meat, walking around in skimpy bikinis, that you want to fuck. Simple as that.

That seems to be how you alone think. I don't thik like that...the women in the contest don't think of it like that...the judges of the contest don't think of it as that.
Perhaps you're in denial over some kind of personal sexism?

The women in these cases have already been socialized into the popular mindset.

As i've said, you will not find one woman in america who calls herself 'just a piece of meat'. And i think you may be slapped if you go around asking them, too.

If a woman is told that she's a simple sexual object, placed on this earth for the sole purpose of gratifying men's sexual desires, what will make her feel good about herself?

Once again...you can tell women that all day long, and you'll get nothing but slaps and harsh words from their mouths. No woman believes she is a piece of meat. No woman lives her life simply to 'please men'.

You realize that when we label people slow, retarded, whatever, and put them into "special" classes, we further inhibit them? They become of the mindset that they are too stupid to learn, to lead meaningful lives, and we create even stupider drones.

That has nothing to do with a woman choosing to enter into a swimsuit competition...nothing at all.

You think every 'valley girl' out there is really that stupid? No, they've adapted and conformed to society's notions - of what a blonde is suppose to act like, of what women are suppose to act like.

You're an ignorant man. Some people just lack intelligence. You will not convince me that any female pretends to be stupid. There is no reason to think that. As a male, i am turned off by the 'valley girl'/'dumb blond' mentality. It's ugly.

Rappers rap about killing and drug-dealing because popular society tells them that blacks are violent and base creatures.

lol no, they rap about killing and drug dealing because that is what their fan base wants. That's why they sell records.

Everything isn't cut-and-dry, black-and-white. No one here ever thinks critically, everything has to be reduced to the barest, lowest level around here.

And yet, that is how your rationality works. You assume that if we tell women that they are just meat...they will for some reason conform to this standard. You won't find one female with this mindset. You assume woman are unable to make their own choices...you assume that the only thing women know is what men tell them.
It's funny that you're trying to stand up for woman, WHILE being sexist...all at the same time. It's almost impressive, actually.

Another problem with these boards, is everyone feels the need to jump to one side or another. Liberals against conservatives and vice-versa, on every damn issue. I guarantee you that half of the people arguing on any thread on here, are doing such simply because someone of "the other side" said the opposite earlier.

Everything isn't cut-and-dry, brother, nor is it black-and-white. there is no reason to reduce things to the barest, lowest level around here.
I don't adapt my points simply to disagree with someone i don't like. That's grade school stuff. And you can't 'guarantee' me anything, except for the fact that you're views are simplistic and naive.

as a postscript, plz don't expect any more replies from me damien, I'm on a self-imposed vacation from here for a week or so..

That's good. Your stupidity made my head hurt anyway.

[Maus]

Of COURSE we 'objectify' women.

Women are beautiful. They are MEANT to be looked at and admired. Being beautiful is an asset that you should be able to be proud of, and not ashamed of. All those that automatically assume that a gorgeous woman is a little dumber than most, are missing out. Certainly, there are women that use only that asset to clear the hurdles of life. But beautiful women have an advantage over ugly people. They can get smarter, and ugly stays ugly (plastic surgery looks incredibly false to me, and IMO is ugly.)

Don't hate on the beauty. Love it, and admire it.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 9/21/04 12:07 AM, Maus wrote: Of COURSE we 'objectify' women.

You've already started out on a bad foot...

Women are beautiful. They are MEANT to be looked at and admired.

lol years and years of fighting for equal rights, and this is the best theory you have on women?

Being beautiful is an asset that you should be able to be proud of, and not ashamed of.

Being beautiful is not the issue, objectification is. If the only problem was guys calling women beautiful, then i don't think people would be complaining.

All those that automatically assume that a gorgeous woman is a little dumber than most, are missing out.

Once again, this has nothing to do with this thread.

Certainly, there are women that use only that asset to clear the hurdles of life.

Well sure...THEY'RE allowed to objectify themselves...it's different when WE do it though.

[Maus]

I AM a woman. Those are my opinions. Assume nothing.

[Wraith]

At 9/21/04 12:29 AM, Maus wrote: I AM a woman. Those are my opinions. Assume nothing.

Simply because of that, I think your opinion here is more highly valued than the rest of ours.

No fair. >=(