Protesting and the US Military.

[Spookshow]

Originally Posted by Unknown
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Pretty good quote I think. It says alot about our military and what they do for us. I got extremely upset when the other day, I read about soldiers finally coming home, only to be spit on and called baby killers. Should'nt we support them, not for what they did but who they are? That war wasn't right, I concede that but they are just following their orders.

[antiklaus]

Pretty good quote I think. It says alot about our military and what they do for us. I got extremely upset when the other day, I read about soldiers finally coming home, only to be spit on and called baby killers. Should'nt we support them, not for what they did but who they are? That war wasn't right, I concede that but they are just following their orders.

I have yet to see any soldiers being met by anything less than open arms and welcome returns.

That said, a lot of them are being spat upon by their government. Reservists are getting health care terminated upon return - and many aren't even offered plane tickets home. All in all they are being abandoned by the people at the top - cuts in benefits and employers who have filled the positions that these reservists once had are allowed to get away with it.

[Spookshow]

At 8/17/04 06:35 AM, antiklaus wrote:

Pretty good quote I think. It says alot about our military and what they do for us. I got extremely upset when the other day, I read about soldiers finally coming home, only to be spit on and called baby killers. Should'nt we support them, not for what they did but who they are? That war wasn't right, I concede that but they are just following their orders.

I have yet to see any soldiers being met by anything less than open arms and welcome returns.

http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-07-14/opinion/200407143731.shtml

That said, a lot of them are being spat upon by their government. Reservists are getting health care terminated upon return - and many aren't even offered plane tickets home. All in all they are being abandoned by the people at the top - cuts in benefits and employers who have filled the positions that these reservists once had are allowed to get away with it.

I know, Bush is starting to screw the people he says he supports. With Kerrys military funding record however, I doubt he will do much better.

[antiklaus]

I have yet to see any soldiers being met by anything less than open arms and welcome returns.

http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-07-14/opinion/200407143731.shtml

For one, that was an opinion pice, so the bias was set beforehand.
Even according to the article:

"I believe (Jason's) mom when she said her son was called 'a murderer.' But I'm sure it wasn't so much directed at the kid as it was the president."

(he was holding a sign saying 'Veterans for Bush')

I know, Bush is starting to screw the people he says he supports. With Kerrys military funding record however, I doubt he will do much better.

The military soldier always gets treated like crap by the men in charge. The contractors and weapon designers get treated like heros where it counts... in the pocketbook.

[Snoofalah]

I think it's great that these kids can show how much they love their country, but it makes me sad to think that the chose to do so in means of death. Many of these kids (adults too) never make it home to see another Christmas, or another Thanksgiving day get-together. No more hugs from recognizeable family other than the friend that fights next to you. It makes me sad to hear about their legs being blown off or being shot down, but then I remember that they died for a purpose, and that's to save what we know is true and good.

[Spookshow]

I know it was biased but they heard people yelling those hateful things out and even if he WAS for Bush they should respect him for serving. It's time to bring them home.

[bumcheekcity]

At 8/17/04 06:21 AM, Spookshow wrote: Originally Posted by Unknown
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

It was the soldior, not the reporter,
Who bombed Ali Ismail Eedan and blew his arms and legs off.
It was the soldier, not the poet,
That shot another one of the 2500 dead palestinian civilians.
It was the soldier, not the campus organiser,
That shot the 11,000 Iraqi civilians now dead.
It is the soldier,
Who strips the Iraqi,
Who laughs at the Iraqi
and who ties electrodes to his genitals,
who allows the Iraqi to have his 'freedom' again.

Sorry, I believe you had some sort of point there?

[TheWakingDeath]

It was the poet, the protestor turned militant that created our country, not the soldiers who unquestioningly supported the government. When you join the armed forces and you job is to kill people, or to help others kill people, you are a murderer. You knew what your expectations would be when you joined and no one forced you to do it. Don't let it be said that i disrespect the members of our armed forces in any way, but i will not absolve them of the responsibility of their actions.

[Spookshow]

At 8/17/04 10:06 AM, bumcheekcity wrote: It was the soldior, not the reporter,
Who bombed Ali Ismail Eedan and blew his arms and legs off.

Who?

It was the soldier, not the poet,
That shot another one of the 2500 dead palestinian civilians.

I was refering to US servicemen.

It was the soldier, not the campus organiser,
That shot the 11,000 Iraqi civilians now dead.

We didn't kill all them.

It is the soldier,
Who strips the Iraqi,

Under orders, hate the player not the game.

Who laughs at the Iraqi

I pity them.

[bumcheekcity]

At 8/17/04 10:28 AM, Spookshow wrote: Who?

This guy:
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/iraq%202003/2003%204%208/Ali4.jpg

We didn't kill all them.

http://iraqbodycount.net/ Up to ~12,500 now. You must have killed a few of them...

Under orders, hate the player not the game.

I hate them both. They signed up willingly knowing they'd eventually properly murder someone else.

I pity them.

I noticed you missed out replying to the 'electrodes' bit.

[Spookshow]

At 8/17/04 10:57 AM, bumcheekcity wrote: This guy:
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/iraq%202003/2003%204%208/Ali4.jpg

Back story?

http://iraqbodycount.net/ Up to ~12,500 now. You must have killed a few of them...

Probably because they were either soldiers or enemy combatants.

I hate them both. They signed up willingly knowing they'd eventually properly murder someone else.

That's what soldiers do. You hate our servicemen... Wow, that;s harsh. They do what they have to. If they have to kill someone that is threatening them, then so be it. I'd rather they die than our boys.

I noticed you missed out replying to the 'electrodes' bit.

My Dell deleted that. My post was to ask if you had a link or accused.

[bumcheekcity]

At 8/17/04 11:15 AM, Spookshow wrote: Back story?

US Soldiors bombed his house, killed all his family, leaving him an orphan, and blew both his arms and legs off.

Probably because they were either soldiers or enemy combatants.

*Sigh* You didn't visit the site, did you?

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq

That's what soldiers do. You hate our servicemen... Wow, that;s harsh. They do what they have to. If they have to kill someone that is threatening them, then so be it. I'd rather they die than our boys.

They don't have to do that. They can become plumbers. However, they signed up to become murderers. I respect that that is their decision, but I hate the fact that they signed up to become murderers.

My Dell deleted that. My post was to ask if you had a link or accused.

What do you mean, a link!? Abu Gharib has been in the papers for the past month!

[Phineus]

"War is hell."

I'm sure we've all heard this one before. It's words are simple, yet its meaning is profound.

The same is true with war itself. Blowing someone away is easy, but the ramifications of doing so are vast and long lasting.

Rallying behind the cause or protesting its ignorance are also fairly easy to accomplish. These things alone, without action to their fufilment, are useless.

If you think about it, nither helping nor hindering one side of a conflict saves lives. Only when both sides have come to terms can the bloodshed stop.

I think we can all agree that killing is never a good thing. By taking sides, we only perpetuate it.

If someone has the answer to the question I am asking, I will listen. But, I have yet to hear anything useful.

[bombkangaroo]

At 8/17/04 10:06 AM, bumcheekcity wrote: It was the soldior, not the reporter,
Who bombed Ali Ismail Eedan and blew his arms and legs off.
It was the soldier, not the poet,
That shot another one of the 2500 dead palestinian civilians.
It was the soldier, not the campus organiser,
That shot the 11,000 Iraqi civilians now dead.
It is the soldier,
Who strips the Iraqi,
Who laughs at the Iraqi
and who ties electrodes to his genitals,
who allows the Iraqi to have his 'freedom' again.

it was the reporter who makes money from the story of ali ismail eedan.
palestinian civilian casualties are unintentional.
the current civilian body count in iraq includes those killed by both(or all) sides, and those deaths caused by the coalition were largely unintentional.
the atrocities from abu ghraib were soldiers who were not doing their jobs properly. that isn't anything close to a fair reflection on the majority of soldiers.

[Montgomery-Scott]

its the politicians, not the peacenicks who should be reviled by the soldiers. We support the troops, we just don't like the wars.

[bumcheekcity]

At 8/17/04 04:54 PM, bombkangaroo wrote: it was the reporter who makes money from the story of ali ismail eedan.

I do believe there is a lot of difference between reporting on a story and getting money for it, and blowing a kids arms and legs off.

palestinian civilian casualties are unintentional.

*Raises one eyebrow*

the current civilian body count in iraq includes those killed by both(or all) sides, and those deaths caused by the coalition were largely unintentional.

Be that as they may. I'd be happy to accept that 99.9% of all civilian deaths were unintentional. Doesn't stop the fact. They're dead. If someone shot your mum, but it was unintentional, you'd still have a right to be a LITTLE bit pissed off...

the atrocities from abu ghraib were soldiers who were not doing their jobs properly. that isn't anything close to a fair reflection on the majority of soldiers.

Were they soldiors? Yes. Did they do it? Yes. Was that my point, nothing more, and nothing less? Yes. I'm well aware that all soldiors aren't like that. I'm also well aware that more than enough are.

[bumcheekcity]

At 8/17/04 06:21 AM, Spookshow wrote: Originally Posted by Unknown
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Spookshow, please detail for me exactly HOW the soldiors gave us freedom of speech, allow us to burn flags and all that jazz...

[Montgomery-Scott]

Abu Ghraib was NOT a bunch of bad apples, it is a symptom of the wider disease in our current defence department of a totall lack of regard for basic human rights. THis guy in Dick Cheney's office wrote a memo on how to torture people and not violate the Geneva Convention. CIA agents told soldiers to "soften up" inmates before interrogation. The soldiers WERE doing thier jobs right, it was their jobs that were wrong.

[Spookshow]

At 8/17/04 11:52 AM, bumcheekcity wrote: US Soldiors bombed his house, killed all his family, leaving him an orphan, and blew both his arms and legs off.

So we just up and bombed his house? I need more of a back story than that.

*Sigh* You didn't visit the site, did you?

Yep. I don't see how blaiming the US Military itself for EVERY death in Iraq is valid.

This includes civilian deaths resulting from the breakdown in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care or sanitation.

They don't have to do that. They can become plumbers. However, they signed up to become murderers. I respect that that is their decision, but I hate the fact that they signed up to become murderers.

So who would you rather fight the oppressors and defend our security? We need a military, call them what you will. BTW they are ALL NOT combat arms. Are you calling the support staff "murderers" too?

What do you mean, a link!? Abu Gharib has been in the papers for the past month!

I don't study every once of data concerning the military. I have a problem where my comp moves the mouse, deleting everything in between. So what if one or ten soldiers did something bad. If you are classifying EVERY soldier and serviceman as that then...

[RedSkunk]

Imagine how free we would be if everyone was conscripted then! Gee wiz!!1

[slicindicin]

There is a real problem with equating military service with murder. Ideally, a military's purpose is to defend a country from foreign attacks. I don't want to get into the details of preemptive strikes, but barring those sorts of issues that may or may not be proper or ethical, my original definition stands as the ideal.

Similarly, a police force is ideally intended to protect people from coercion by other people. I don't want to get into details like police brutality and the ethics behind the death penalty.

To say that all persons in the military are murderers because their actions result in the deaths of others necessarily requires one to say that all police officers are murderers.

When one pays taxes, one indirectly supports the military and the police force. A taxpayer knows the consequences of his actions when he sends in the money to the IRS. It is not hard to say that all taxpayers are murderers as well.

This can mean several things, one is that we should eliminate the military and police force as they force us into becoming murderers. another is that murder isn't necessarily wrong.

I doubt either of these conclusions is very good. Am I missing something?

[XcakerX]

At 8/17/04 06:21 AM, Spookshow wrote: Originally Posted by Unknown
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

This is an old military quote.

gotta lotta people dissing soliders in this thread. Shame on you all. Someone not to older than you is gonna bite the bullet simply cause he wanted to get out of a shit of a fucking life, and the military was the only way.

Most of the people that hate the military are rich white guys who don't know what real struggle is. How hard it is to get a job, or ever have to worry about making it. Somewhere in this country people struggle, and making it in the military ensures you're kids will have food to eat, and someone will be looking after them. Call them murders, but they are just trying to survive. You would be amazed that the conditions some Americans live in. Count yourself lucky that you are not in the possition where gotta kill people or get shot at for three hots and a cott, or so his son can get his vaccines.

Now we got a president who is about as sharp as a bowling ball and the only man who is in a position to take him out of office, is a rich preppie shit that went into vietnam to play cowboy from the saftey of a riverboat, and got himself signed off on medals he didn't deserve by freinds high up in command.

And what happens when a scandal hits. Do the people orginiziting it get hit with anything??? NO. The lowest ranking guy there, a spec-4 barely in his fucking twenties gets two years in Levinworth and everyone else gets off scott free.

Now its easy to judge from your nice home, where you EAT everyday, and things are taken care of. Its easy to argue when you go to college, and its cool to hate the military. BUT GOD FORBID YOU THINK OF THE LESS FORTUNATE AMERICANS WITH NOTHING ELSE.

As for me. I serve weekends in the New Jersey Army National Guard. I figured I would be filling sand bags durring the winter when the ice melted, and get paid for it, and if anyone wanted to take over Jersey, I'd lift a rifle, and work homeland security(stateside)

Now I've been throught Army basic training(OSUT training for 19k in ft knox actually ), and I can tell you what sort of people join. I can only say, one person going into the regular army wanted to go to Iraq, and he was the sheltered type.

Everyone else was there cause they were going absolutely nowhere with their lives, and they were tired of the ass end of the econimic system.

I can personally say I am not thrilled that next deployment cycle I am up for duty in Iraq. I've seen the protester sorts, I've hung out with them, partied with them, puked in the same toliets.(was one when I was younger)

Now they're are a lot of them who are just trying to bring some sort of human element to this country. Others are just caught up in being more hardcore and diehard. Most of theese more hardcore than though are just a bunch of rich kids trying to look cool. Its a shame, when they let their fashion superscede someone else trying to make it in this world. Especially when they have no problems getting ahead.

To think, that the people running the arab world are DIFFRENT that the people that run ours is sheer lunacy.

So I want all you rich little kids who hate the military to THINK a second before you recite some mindless garbage propiganda probably written by a third world reject. Think about the bigger picture, and about something other than what you are told and stop following trends.

[Spookshow]

At 8/17/04 08:11 PM, XcakerX wrote: This is an old military quote.

Thanks for clarifying sp* that.

gotta lotta people dissing soliders in this thread. Shame on you all. Someone not to older than you is gonna bite the bullet simply cause he wanted to get out of a shit of a fucking life, and the military was the only way.

I don't see why people on NG seem to hate the Military so much. Do they hate Metal_Hed69 too? The average soldier in Iraq is 19 to 20. The military is often the only way someone who has made bad decisions or has not had the best life can go.

Great things.

I agree, we are truly lucky.

Now we got a president who is about as sharp as a bowling ball and the only man who is in a position to take him out of office, is a rich preppie shit that went into vietnam to play cowboy from the saftey of a riverboat, and got himself signed off on medals he didn't deserve by freinds high up in command.

Someone attacking both Bush and Kerry... STOP THE PRESSES! :) I'd like to know peoples opinions as to the movies that were made too...

And what happens when a scandal hits. Do the people orginiziting it get hit with anything??? NO. The lowest ranking guy there, a spec-4 barely in his fucking twenties gets two years in Levinworth and everyone else gets off scott free.

Humanity thrives on negativity. We will never be happy unless we have something to bitch about. It's always the guy at the bottom who pays the greatest price, then again in this case they were the ones most directly responsible.

Now its easy to judge from your nice home, where you EAT everyday, and things are taken care of. Its easy to argue when you go to college, and its cool to hate the military. BUT GOD FORBID YOU THINK OF THE LESS FORTUNATE AMERICANS WITH NOTHING ELSE.

Or the people who are fighting and dying for our country.

As for me. I serve weekends in the New Jersey Army National Guard. I figured I would be filling sand bags durring the winter when the ice melted, and get paid for it, and if anyone wanted to take over Jersey, I'd lift a rifle, and work homeland security(stateside)

Thank you for serving your country.

Now I've been throught Army basic training(OSUT training for 19k in ft knox actually ), and I can tell you what sort of people join. I can only say, one person going into the regular army wanted to go to Iraq, and he was the sheltered type.

A tanker! Former "crunchy" here. How is Old Ironsides?

Everyone else was there cause they were going absolutely nowhere with their lives, and they were tired of the ass end of the econimic system.

People also joined for the honor. We had an extreme marksman who made some special outfit in Washington DC.

I can personally say I am not thrilled that next deployment cycle I am up for duty in Iraq. I've seen the protester sorts, I've hung out with them, partied with them, puked in the same toliets.(was one when I was younger)

I hope you don't have to deploy but if you do, Stay low and stay safe. Come back to the states and NG soon.

[Raptorman]

At 8/17/04 06:19 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: Spookshow, please detail for me exactly HOW the soldiors gave us freedom of speech, allow us to burn flags and all that jazz...

By not shooting you when you do it. There are many places where you have no such privllages.

[TheWakingDeath]

At 8/17/04 09:24 PM, Raptorman wrote:

By not shooting you when you do it. There are many places where you have no such privllages.

That was pretty ignorant thing to say. If, i had a gun, i could give you your freedom of speech by not killing you?
That's not giving someone their rights, that's just following the law and not obstructing them.

[Spookshow]

At 8/17/04 09:24 PM, Raptorman wrote:

At 8/17/04 06:19 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: Spookshow, please detail for me exactly HOW the soldiors gave us freedom of speech, allow us to burn flags and all that jazz...

By not shooting you when you do it. There are many places where you have no such privllages.

He's right Izzy. Im some places, Iraq for instance, saying whatever you wanted could get you shot or worse. Soldiers gave you the freedoms to say whatever you wanted. Soldiers guranteed sp* you even got that privledge by fight in the Revolutionary war. They also insured the right by fighting in WW 2. You could be living under a Socialist dictatorship speakig German right now if it wasn't for them.

[XcakerX]

At 8/17/04 09:17 PM, Spookshow wrote:
I don't see why people on NG seem to hate the Military so much. Do they hate Metal_Hed69 too? The average soldier in Iraq is 19 to 20. The military is often the only way someone who has made bad decisions or has not had the best life can go.

ever see footage from ANSWER protests. Its propiganda gotten to their brains. Logic is useless

Someone attacking both Bush and Kerry... STOP THE PRESSES! :) I'd like to know peoples opinions as to the movies that were made too...

Everyone in my national guard unit feels the same way. Its funny, sometimes the military has the most independant minded people. Or at least they know better than believing propiganda.

Humanity thrives on negativity. We will never be happy unless we have something to bitch about.

Its true, as much as I hate to admit, its fucking true.

Now its easy to judge from your nice home, where you EAT everyday, and things are taken care of. Its easy to argue when you go to college, and its cool to hate the military. BUT GOD FORBID YOU THINK OF THE LESS FORTUNATE AMERICANS WITH NOTHING ELSE.

Or the people who are fighting and dying for our country.

change the "or" to "and"

Thank you for serving your country.

With Pride.

A tanker! Former "crunchy" here. How is Old Ironsides?

cool shit. In two years I am gonna be a crunchy like it or not. They are taking the tanks away from NJ, all us kilos are getting re-trained as deltas.

People also joined for the honor. We had an extreme marksman who made some special outfit in Washington DC.

There are a few, and you gotta give them respect. They didn't have to go through hell, but they did anyway. You probably get more on the cav scout end since scouts got a rep for being a little more crazy. (you gotta be nuts to drive something like bradley out into combat, its slower than an abrams, noiser, less armor and weapons, and has a bigger silloute)

I hope you don't have to deploy but if you do, Stay low and stay safe. Come back to the states and NG soon.

Thanks. There are twelve guys going to Iraq in the fall I know, leaving three tankers left in my unit, the rest of Jersey is in the sands as we speak. Next cycle I am up for deployment. At the LEAST, I will get a hardship tour somewhere.

[Spookshow]

At 8/17/04 09:57 PM, XcakerX wrote: ever see footage from ANSWER protests. Its propiganda gotten to their brains. Logic is useless

I love how people think our servicemen are running around just shooting and bombing anyone and everything.

Everyone in my national guard unit feels the same way. Its funny, sometimes the military has the most independant minded people. Or at least they know better than believing propiganda.

That's because alot of them experiance sp* it firsthand.

Its true, as much as I hate to admit, its fucking true.

Positive reports on Iraq that I've read: 2.
Negative... you get the idea.

Or the people who are fighting and dying for our country.

change the "or" to "and"

And the people that are fighting and dying for Old Glory.

A tanker! Former "crunchy" here. How is Old Ironsides?

cool shit. In two years I am gonna be a crunchy like it or not. They are taking the tanks away from NJ, all us kilos are getting re-trained as deltas.

Crunchies aren't too bad... We're f*cking crazy though. We like to do weird sh*t. I trained on both Abrams and HMMWV's. Not too much but enough to know what's what. I think we're starting to downgrade our tanks. Knox, when I was there was deplapidated. sp*

There are a few, and you gotta give them respect. They didn't have to go through hell, but they did anyway. You probably get more on the cav scout end since scouts got a rep for being a little more crazy. (you gotta be nuts to drive something like bradley out into combat, its slower than an abrams, noiser, less armor and weapons, and has a bigger silloute)

Like the Ranger who gave up a NFL contract. I greatly respect him and anyone else. Yeah, we called the Bradleys "death traps" and played with explosives all day. We had two DS that went "crazy". One shot a deer and the other broke the Chain of Command board with some crutches. sp*

Thanks. There are twelve guys going to Iraq in the fall I know, leaving three tankers left in my unit, the rest of Jersey is in the sands as we speak. Next cycle I am up for deployment. At the LEAST, I will get a hardship tour somewhere.

I wish you the best of luck. If you can learning welding, I hear it helps with the UA kits. I heard they were working on reactive armor for the Bradleys and Strikers.

[slicindicin]

At 8/17/04 10:13 PM, Spookshow wrote:

:: I love how people think our servicemen are running around just shooting and bombing anyone and everything.

What! Everyone knows that the military is full of sadistic, kill-crazy, psychos who flip at the slightest provocation.

[Spookshow]

Just like everyone thinks everyone at Ali- Gharab sp* tortures Iraqis