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At 7/10/06 11:58 PM, ThebanLegion wrote:

Mono:
For the past six years I have been learning self defence and it's concepts through the learning of techniques, this is simply how I learn. Keeping this in mind could you describe for me just one or two specific possible techniques against a knife attack? I intend on working them with a fellow student at my school so that we can learn more about knife defences.

I realize that you train by learning techniques....... and that's the most difficult way to teach how to defend against a knifer. It's really not a situation where things can be broken down into a set of techniques. It's not going to be like, "Okay, if he holds his knife in THIS grip, he'll attack you with this type of motion; you want to do A, followed by B, then immediately turn it around into C. Practice that with your training partner until you can do it with your eyes closed." (I wish knife attacks could be broken down into sets of techniques. Would make defending against knifers a lot easier).

Knife attacks are often brutal and dynamic. With the exception of a knifer throwing his blade at you (not likely), he needs to close the distance between the 2 of you. There's no such thing as getting INSIDE the range of a knife. Therefore, you have to stay OUTSIDE of it's range. Practice techniques that prevent the knifer from closing the distance. One way to do this is to practice in a garage. Stand in the middle of it, have your partner slowly approach you with a dull training knife. Now, look around and grab the nearest object or tool that you believe will help you to prevent him from closing on you. (Take note of your partner's immediate reaction to whichever item you grab........ It will instantly tell you if he thinks you picked wisely). At SLOW speed, with VERY LIGHT hits, try to fend off the "knifer." Your training partner's job is to look for holes in your defense, and try to "stab" you. You go slowly, to not injure your partner and so you can see when & where your partner has found a hole in your defense; so you can seal it up.

Although not a technique in the strictest sense of the word, it is one of the best ways to teach the importance of distancing.

*IMPORTANT NOTE: The 2 of you NEED, at the very least, RUBBER training knives and goggles! Please do not forget those items. I would also suggest getting two, red, washable magic markers. Each of you puts on a white T-shirt (and your goggles). Now you square-off a few feet away from each other. (Not how a realistic knife encounter will take place, but that's unimportant for now). Okay, have at it! Slashing and cutting motions only! Try to "kill" each other with your "knives." After two full minutes, stop and look at each other.......... Both of you are going to quickly realize why I advocate keeping a knifer at a distance, and why running away from one is always best.

hehehe... when the question of ropefighting was raised i perked up a little bit (i'm sick as hell, some kind of uber cold) we used to do a lot of random as hell stuff in my systema class, and every month or so we would do classes where we would take anything we could find in the room, and learn to fight with it (lawnchairs, clipboards, pens, rope) and we had this really thick (like 2 inches thick) rope and we would brutalize each other with it. it was hard to wrap around people, but when you got hit with it you knew it right away. we would often simply club eachother with it.

we also did one class with some half-inch rope, and that was almost completely different. that ended up being trying to wrap it around peoples' limbs when they swung at you and failing 3/5 times. then most of us got better and started to improvise. i tend to simply whip people in the face with it, and while they're stepping back holding their face i do something more effective with a real hit.

satan: yeah, i remember that rant, i was tired as hell and typing nonstop.

At 7/11/06 12:38 PM, Monocrom wrote: I realize that you train by learning techniques....... and that's the most difficult way to teach how to defend against a knifer. It's really not a situation where things can be broken down into a set of techniques. It's not going to be like,

I realize that is the case for many situations but I learn concepts like the ones you advocate through the learning of techniques. Give me a technique and I can develop it into a score of techniques for only one or two of the attacking motions of the attacker.

I would also suggest getting two, red, washable magic markers. Each of you puts on a white T-shirt (and your goggles). Now you square-off a few feet away from each other. (Not how a realistic knife encounter will take place, but that's unimportant for now). Okay, have at it! Slashing and cutting motions only! Try to "kill" each other with your "knives."

That sounds like fun, I think I'll suggest that to my instructor, see if he's willing to run a knife fighting class like that :)

Thanks, I will definitely give that stuff a try, but I'm not yet giving up on getting an actual true technique out of you :p

If a knifer gets within stabbing range without you realizing, you have no place to run and he goes for, lets say the stomach, with a stab, what would you do? What is your first, basic, instinctual reaction?

(Now I'm not saying that I would practice this for the purpose of using it, I would practice it to better understand some of the ways to defend against a knife attack.)

In my school we learn 5 basic techniques and practice them with rubber knives. Even though we only learn 5 techniques, every once in a while, we are forced to make up our own b\c someone attacks us differently.

blade: the best realistic fighting ive seen would be in some bruce-lee movies. i havent seen all of them so i cant tell you if all are the same, but its the most realistic ive seen yet. im looking at the old samurai movies to judge their weaponry (1 down, definetly not realistic, but the other 3 are old, like black and white old, so i wanna judge) stuff.

tom3: ya rope fighting is a strange thing to pick up. ive found that it doesnt really deviate much from unarmed, you just have a rope. ropes dont really have a structure to hold them up, but thats whre you hands come in (i think thats what i want to say).

mono: that sounds like fun.. ill have to try that one of these days...

fine i join your club

At 7/11/06 06:08 PM, Silent_Hill_Revenge wrote: fine i join your club

Why are you so reluctant?

This club is awesome.

At 7/11/06 07:10 AM, Dj_I3lade wrote: What movies have you seen that have Realistic MA fighting? Ive tried looking for ones and they all have people fighting in the air for like 20 minutes and weird stuff like that. oh and i forgot to mention on my previous post that eventually (at brown belt level) i will be trained in the most deadly of oriental weapons...... THE FAN! XP lol i know that its not the most deadly but it is a really cool weapon if you know how to use it right! andd it also hurts..... (if we screw up our forms our master loves to practice his pressure point techniques on us using HIS set of fans... >,>) and i have yet to see a MA movie that uses the fan in any of the fight scenes! then again i dont usually watch the whole thing cuz they tend to be too cheesy. oh well!

I dont know if you know this, but Ive been training in the fans for the past 4 years. They are the first weapon I started out in and probably the one I will die with. Fan techniques are very painful and they look girly so no one expects so much power to come from them. I saw a guy at a seminar once that had metal fans with modified ends so they ended in blades. As soon as I find out how he did it, Im gonna have bladed fans. :P Are you ust learning fan forms or techniques? I do both, and fans do really well in competition especially if you have a good form because you dont see very many of them. Let me know if you have any questions or tips, I would like to share techniques. This is cool, I dont know very many people that do fans! XD

If i ever learn how to use with fans it would make it so much fun to get in fights. :p. Imagine this, you are getting fucked around with by someone and you pull out a fan. They call you *certain things that ng doesnt allow* and you act like a lil girl with it. Then all of a sudden you kick their ass with it.

But the knife thing, we are doing a bit more with them now. From how to kill them with their own knifes to just flat out embarassing them, to killing them with your hands when you could easily do it with the knife. Fun stuff.

fans look so cool. The only thing I have ever really seen or experienced w\ them is at a tournament when I watched a black belt doing a fan form. It was frickin' awesome.

Also, @ DSM - you might not want to embarrass a knifer, a desperate animal is sometimes the most dangerous.

At 7/11/06 09:33 PM, Satanic_Samurai wrote: I dont know if you know this, but Ive been training in the fans for the past 4 years. They are the first weapon I started out in and probably the one I will die with. Fan techniques are very painful and they look girly so no one expects so much power to come from them. I saw a guy at a seminar once that had metal fans with modified ends so they ended in blades. As soon as I find out how he did it, Im gonna have bladed fans. :P Are you ust learning fan forms or techniques? I do both, and fans do really well in competition especially if you have a good form because you dont see very many of them. Let me know if you have any questions or tips, I would like to share techniques. This is cool, I dont know very many people that do fans! XD

Im not learning fans YET. But i cant wait! In KSW theyre considered a higher class weapon so i cant learn it untill im a brown belt. Also (believe it or not :P) Fans are considered a Girls weapon in KSW as are Short swords. which reminds me of a fair my Master once did with his wife... She used dual short swords and he used a rope (hey i tied into another topic!) and he got his but whooped. His wife scares me.... but ive seen rope fighting a few other times too, We primarily use extra white belts as ropes cuz were kindoff a poor class and cant get a good rope. But a belt works pretty good too, you can disarm and opponent prettey easily and get them in some really good joint locks!

satan: get the fan made out of metal (thin enough so it'll fold but thick enough so it wont snap.. at least i think thats how its done) and just sharpen the ends, and you've got yourself a giant razor blade. or put spikes on the frame stuff, and sharpened their edges.

in ninjutsu, fans are mostly just used to block someones sight, or for surpizing them.. openening it quickly in someones face gets them to move their head back, which creates opprotunitys. then, and things that are made too look like folded fans but arnt fans, they're just little clubs to bash people with. thats what i know about fans in ninjutsu.

i don't know quite how relevant this is to martial arts, but it is armor which is relevant to combat in general, so i'll just let it slide: today i met a guy who makes chain mail and other small steelcraft (small as in the links and welds) and we got to talking, and it turns out that he is highly reccomended by the same place that i get all of my other QUALITY stuff of the sort (ritual knives, fun aparrel like chainmail and gauntlets, real stuff too, battle ready, not just cheap fetish store junk.) they basically buy from small local vendors and act as the end of the funnel. but so we were talking prices and we came to an agreement and in 2 months he'll have ready for me a full shirt, long sleeves with an hand set up that has the chains hanging loose around the top of my hand, and if i so wish i can wrap them around my fingers and knuckles and use it as a weapon. but normally a set like that would cost around 800$ because he's using real quality steel (the full thing will weigh about 35 pounds) and because of the hand setup which i designed for him, but he's going to make it for me for 600$ because he's going to have to take a week and a half longer than he usually would. i was measured for size and everything. but i'm excited as hell to get it. he had some samples of his links on him and i couldn't for the life of me break them, and he is known for making every link that good.

on a more martial arts related note: my tai chi class finally starts back up in 2 days, so i've been practicing like hell to gte all of the form back. in about a month i'll start sword form and i'll be giddy about that. tai chi sword form is not so much combat applicable as adaptable to copmbat using other arts. (wow, just like tai chi)

tsuchiya: rope fighting with small ropes is mostly distraction, whip em in the face then punch them, or swing right with rope, sweep out legs with legs. with big, thick ropes it becomes an act in bludgeoning the opponent until they've had enough.

At 7/11/06 07:10 AM, Dj_I3lade wrote: What movies have you seen that have Realistic MA fighting? Ive tried looking for ones and they all have people fighting in the air for like 20 minutes and weird stuff like that.

the most realistic fighting I've seen a motion picture that was on the silver screen probably is BLOOD SPORT...with exception of the end fight...but if you actually look at what's going on...it's pretty realistic...

Hey new to the forums was sent here by Satanic_Samurai

Ive taken wado Ryu Karate now for 8 years, but also have exstensive experience in Capoiera, some Tae Kwon Do, some Jujitsu, Kempo, Win Chun(sp?), A bit of Greko-Roman Wrestling, Kick Boxing. And thats all i can think up for now.

Am I in the club or...hows this work now?

Hello Flying J!

Welcome to the NG MAC. Im satan. Ive done Hapkido, Wing Chun, Hap Gar, Tai Chi and a few others. But you already know that. :P Thanks for joining. I hope this doesnt mean I have to post on the SB forums. :P Things are really slow this evening. But then again Ive been checking this every five minutes. Im sooo bored.

At 7/12/06 02:47 AM, Flying_J wrote: Am I in the club or...hows this work now?

Welcome to the club :)

All you have to do is request to join, if you're not being a jerk in your first post, you don't spam, and provided you come back, you're in. That's it.

The styles you listed; did you train in all of them at the same school or how many different schools did you have to go to?

-------

t3r:
Sweet, I want a chain mail shirt, that would rock! And just 600 bucks is a really good deal, I've seen some where you get less than what you described for well over a thousand $$$. You must post pictures!

At 7/11/06 02:46 PM, ThebanLegion wrote:

At 7/11/06 12:38 PM, Monocrom wrote: I realize that you train by learning techniques....... and that's the most difficult way to teach how to defend against a knifer. It's really not a situation where things can be broken down into a set of techniques.

I realize that is the case for many situations but I learn concepts like the ones you advocate through the learning of techniques. Give me a technique and I can develop it into a score of techniques for only one or two of the attacking motions of the attacker.

Okay, but what do you do if the knifer uses more than one or two attacking motions? However, if you can get off of the center-line, you'll have an excellent chance of avoiding the most basic knife attack. (Several straight stabs to the gut). I'm not sure if Kenpo teaches pivoting off of the center-line. (This would be a lot easier to show you, than trying to write about it). Imagine a pole going through the top of your head, straight down between your legs and through the floor. Put your arms behind your back. Now pivot your body to the right, then ALL the way to the left. If done properly, you'll be lifting your outside foot (opposite foot from the direction you're pivoting in) up; so that your toes are pointed up and you're heel is the part of your foot that rotates. (Damn, this would be a lot easier if I could show you). Now, everytime the straight-stab comes in, you pivot out of the way; in one direction. Second stab = pivot the other way, third stab = pivot in the direction you did for the first stab; and so on! Repeat, over and over and over......... slowly at first, then have your training partner increase the speed with which he is trying to stab you. Now, against a real knifer, you're not going to be constantly pivoting out of the way. This technique is done to build up your own reaction time. There's no such thing as being fast enough, when it comes to pivoting. All there is, is being as fast as YOU can possibly be. Once you've reached that point, pivot with your arms out to your sides. Your training partner should wear a helmet, swimmer's goggles and a mouth-guard. Now as you pivot out of the way, deliver a palm-heel strike to the side of his face. Now repeat the same exercise, with the added strike. If your training partner is still able to cut you, after you strike him, you're too slow! Once you become fast enough, you'll be able to defend against the most basic knife attack.

I would also suggest getting two, red, washable magic markers. Each of you puts on a white T-shirt (and your goggles). Now you square-off a few feet away from each other. (Not how a realistic knife encounter will take place, but that's unimportant for now). Okay, have at it! Slashing and cutting motions only! Try to "kill" each other with your "knives."

That sounds like fun, I think I'll suggest that to my instructor, see if he's willing to run a knife fighting class like that :)

Actually, it is fun......... But afterwards, the importance of using RED markers will become very clear. The only reason I see why your Instructor would object is if the knife defenses he's taught you end up being upstaged. Remember, no big arm motions. Keep the "knife" close to your torso, and keep your slashes and cuts, tight. If your training partner tries to disarm you, immediately jerk your elbow back and try to cut the arm that he tried to use to disarm you.

Thanks, I will definitely give that stuff a try, but I'm not yet giving up on getting an actual true technique out of you :p

Looks like you've succeded! ......... I'll try to post more advanced techniques in a couple of days, on my day off, when I'm not exhausted from work and have to be back there in only a few hours........ Yes, even the great Monocrom needs sleep. :P

If a knifer gets within stabbing range without you realizing, you have no place to run and he goes for, lets say the stomach, with a stab, what would you do? What is your first, basic, instinctual reaction?

That's an easy one! Your arms go up, as you suck in your stomach, bend forward at the waist, and jump back with both of your feet. That's definitely going to be your 1st, basic, and instinctual reaction.

(Now I'm not saying that I would practice this for the purpose of using it, I would practice it to better understand some of the ways to defend against a knife attack.)

I'm not worried that you'll go out and use this knowledge to cut open some little old lady. The thing is, you're right! Knowing HOW to use a knife yourself, understanding how a real knifer is going to use his knife........ those are the ways that you can best learn to defend against the knife.

Along with some more techniques posted here in the club, I'll PM you a couple of offensive techniques that more experienced knifers prefer. Once you learn those, I'll leave it up to you to come up with defenses for them. (Other than the effective ones of distancing and running away). PM me later on with what you'll come up with as defenses, I'll let you know how effective they would be and why. (Once again, I'll do this in a couple of days).

At 7/12/06 12:38 PM, Monocrom wrote: Okay, but what do you do if the knifer uses more than one or two attacking motions?

Give me an attack where he does and I can create an additional 20 or so techniques from a couple concepts. As for if I really was attacked in such a way I'm not too sure yet, that's why I'm asking :)

However, if you can get off of the center-line, you'll have an excellent chance of avoiding the most basic knife attack. (Several straight stabs to the gut). I'm not sure if Kenpo teaches pivoting off of the center-line.

Actually we do pivot in a similar manner; however it isn't emphasized as much for us as it appears it is for you.

Actually, it is fun......... But afterwards, the importance of using RED markers will become very clear. The only reason I see why your Instructor would object is if the knife defenses he's taught you end up being upstaged.

I see what you mean but my instructor isn't arrogant, his goal is to give everyone who trains with him the tools necessary to defend themselves, if I can help him with what you're teaching me then I think he'll be open to trying new things.

Looks like you've succeded! ......... I'll try to post more advanced techniques in a couple of days, on my day off, when I'm not exhausted from work and have to be back there in only a few hours........ Yes, even the great Monocrom needs sleep. :P

Stop lying; everyone knows you don't need sleep. So what is it this month, you working on solving world hunger in your spare time?

That's an easy one! Your arms go up, as you suck in your stomach, bend forward at the waist, and jump back with both of your feet. That's definitely going to be your 1st, basic, and instinctual reaction.

Makes sense... In my style the first thing we do is block or avoid the attack, the second step is we become the attacker (example: if someone grabs your shoulder the first thing you do is grab their shoulder or pin their hand, of course in the case of a shoulder grab step one is void). Step three: we attack back, break their arm, punch them in the face or something like that. There can be more to it but that's basically how most of our techniques are put together.

Now that we have a first reaction, what do we do next?

This is my idea: (assuming the knifer stabbed with his right) immediately drop your left arm to quickly perry (<open handed block) his arm away as you step up with your right and throw a web hand to his throat also with your right. Again with your right, throw a thrust kick to the side of his right knee pushing him off balance away from you (theoretically the thrust kick and the web hand could be done in reverse order or even at the same time), this provides you with enough time while he's regaining his balance and breath (from the web hand) for you to get away.

What do you think? *cringes and braces self for painful realization*

The only thing I can think of is if he's quick enough he may be able to whip his hand back as you perry it and cut your hand/arm, especially if he's holding the knife blade up...

Along with some more techniques posted here in the club, I'll PM you a couple of offensive techniques that more experienced knifers prefer. Once you learn those, I'll leave it up to you to come up with defenses for them. (Other than the effective ones of distancing and running away). PM me later on with what you'll come up with as defenses, I'll let you know how effective they would be and why. (Once again, I'll do this in a couple of days).

Awesome! Everything that I didn't quote or respond to is noted and very much appreciated :D

Yeah I did all at one school except the Tae Kwon Do. My main instructor has been doing some form of martial arts for 26 years now. Lot of stuff to learn from him.

My weapon...main one is the kamas but Im also pretty good with a staff and an Escrima...I knew I forgot one...we also do Cali(sp?) Escrema. Just curious...but what exactly do I do to put quote tags up? My normal forum stomping grounds have different controls.

Yes Satanic_Samurai you have to start posting on SB too.

Now for my sake would everyone mind introducing themselves?

Not wanting to interrupt the discussion on knife fighting/defences I only just scanned through it. Ive done the marker style knife fighting its fun and very...informative when you realize just where you would actually be cut. May I suggest after a major artery is cut the person only has a few seconds to do anything before they lose? When your adreniline is pumping it is said you only have roughly 7 seconds of true consciousness before youve lost to much blood to do anything.

Anyone also willing to catch me up on the discussion...Help me out!? :p

At 7/12/06 03:02 PM, Flying_J wrote:
Now for my sake would everyone mind introducing themselves?

No problem! I've been doing Ninjutsu for... ONE lesson, I had my first lesson on a saturday morning but... the tuesday after it... my arm broke. That was in April this year, I'm going to call the instructor of Ninjutsu this week, to say I can come again, my arm should be healed right now... Well, that was me!

At 7/12/06 03:02 PM, Flying_J wrote: Yes Satanic_Samurai you have to start posting on SB too.

What is 'SB'?

Now for my sake would everyone mind introducing themselves?

Well, you can call me Theban, I've been taking Chinese kenpo Karate for a little over six years now and have been teachnig it for over two and a half years.

About the knife topic, it's pretty much just Monocrom (or 'Mono' [we shorten eachothers names, you shall be 'flyJ', unless you prefer something else?]) and myself. I have little knife experience so I'm asking Mono some questions as he has ample experience to share. I'm sure that if you ask some questions of him he will be more than happy to answer but he's been busy lately so be patient.

About Quoting.

You need to put this : and a space at the beginning of a paragraph before you start typing.

(: Example.)

Example.

To make it easy on yourself you can just press the "reply with quote" button at the top of every post and it will automatically put everything contained in that post in quote format, all you have to do is type out your responce inbetween the paragraphs. you can even sepperate the paragraphs apart just so long as you remember to put one of these : at the beginning of the part you sepperated out.

I hope that answers your question :)

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Dj3:
This isn't martial arts related but sorry your flash got blammed, I voted 4 on it :P

Sorry for the double post everyone...

FlyJ:
Also try not to double post, if you forgot to say something important (like I just did) then it's okay but just don't do it intentially. Also don't quote too much, only what you are directly responding to. And one more thing, it is customary to put a link to the club in your sig or at least an advertizment (so to speak), like the one I have.

After watching a single U$F video from Urban free flow, i have come to appreciate there parkour skills. But i still hate them.

U$F Volume 3 now available! go watch all three, free download, and each video is approximately 30 minutes long.

http://www.urbanfree..lar_f/u_dollar_f.htm

Flying J-

Thank you for joining NG MAC for me, or out of sheer boredom, but Im not posting on SB. Maybe a little in the General Forums, but Im not going near the sci fi. Everyone here calls me satan, I enjoy my title, plus it keeps things less formal. And Im pretty sure you spelled Kali with a 'c' just to piss me off. If I have to go over word origins again Im gonna freak. KALI...with a K. Just for future reference. Grammar nazi out.

Mono and Theban-

Since we're on the knife fighting topic today, I have to ask your opinions on the xblock against overhead attacks (slash or ice pick) and abdominal stabs? Military and combat styles of Hapkido teach you to use a different block and traditional styles teach you to xblock. I was taught both techniques and prefer the military style better. Xblock against anything just seems flimsy. From an abdominal blow, defending with an xblock into the technique, all they have to do is turn the knife and pull out and they've sliced both of my wrists. Which isnt the best place to get cut. For knife fighting I know you have to be faster than your attacker, but I would rather be slow and have control of the situation than I would fast and fuck everything up. I know most styles teach you to get out of the way and run, but my style suggests disarming and then running, just in case they really wanted you and happen to be on high school track. So what do you guys think, xblock or not?

SB is for spacebattles, its a forum for sci fi and a few other things. I prefer NG. I dont really like sci fi and most of the members have a self centered God complex where they're right and no one else is. (No offense Flying J) And I would much rather post in the NG MAC where everyone's opinion is valued and taken into consideration. But it can be mildly entertaining on occasion. Check it out.

http://spacebattles.com/

At 7/12/06 11:07 AM, ThebanLegion wrote:

t3r:
Sweet, I want a chain mail shirt, that would rock! And just 600 bucks is a really good deal, I've seen some where you get less than what you described for well over a thousand $$$. You must post pictures!

hell yeah. i kind of broke my thumb today swordfighting with my friend with no gloves. i had the killing blow though, so i know that i won. but of course i'll post pics when i get in 1-2 months. and 600$ is a damn good deal. the guy thats making it, olaf, is from norway and made a living there making chainmail and has been doing it for 40 years. so i know itll be well made.

Man i hate this club, you guys post too much crap for me to read. :p.

Anyways TKD is so stressful as of late. Lots of changes in the school and plus the fact that i have to pay a contract in order to work there is annoying my parents. They are so fed up with it that even if i paid for it they would still want me to quit. Why does this shit happen to me. It seems every summer at TKD sucks. Wish it would just end.

Anyways ill have my infamous scissor kick up soon since my friend is going to get the thing he needs to upload it on a computer. Hopefully you guys will enjoy it.

Also if you want please join the forums. It has been hectic as of late thanks to certain people but i ave got it back under control.

Its pronounced "TAE KWON DO." i would know after 6 years of it. I've reached a 2'nd degree black belt.

At 7/12/06 09:38 PM, _XaNDer2193_ wrote: Its pronounced "TAE KWON DO." i would know after 6 years of it. I've reached a 2'nd degree black belt.

eeeyeah. What would make you think that we dont know how to pronounce Tae Kwon Do? Calling it TKD saves us from having to type out the entire name. Either way other people know what we're talking about.You seem kinda snotty. I dont like you.

Everyone else-

Those of you that chat with me often on messenger need to readd me if they would like to continue coresponding with me. I downloaded the new 8.0 messenger and then decided that I dont like it so I removed the program and tried to reinstall the old one. It turns out the old one no longer exists so I had to get the new 8.0 system back. Doing this caused all of my contacts to disappear. And sadly I dont know any of your email addresses (if I did I would just readd you myself, but I dont so fuck off) so I cant add you to my contact list. ADD ME NOW!
sara_guyton@hotmail.com