Patriot Act??

[XcakerX]

what do you guys think about it??

any groups trying to get it repealed??

[Jemistad]

What is it?

[RedSkunk]

The ACLU is trying to chip away at it. They also have a decent campaign going to minimize the amount of "PATRIOT ACT 2" getting into legislation.

MoveOn might be doing something too.

[XcakerX]

At 7/26/04 12:42 PM, Jemistad wrote: What is it?

some people live their lives in a closet, but ok, yer probably too young to rember 2001, in short it turned the FBI, CIA back to the "glory days" of McCarthy commie hunting of the 50s, and offered only a few real reforms. here are a few links:

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087984/
http://www.ala.org/ala/washoff...sapatriotact/alaresolution.htm

[Jemistad]

Cheers. No need for the sarcasm - I live in England.

[The-Enforcer]

Jemistad don't worry about it, it's not a big deal. Some whackos get too worried over trivial things around here.

[Jemistad]

Fair enough. I'm in a bad mood because I got fired yesterday.

[The-Enforcer]

At 7/26/04 01:00 PM, Jemistad wrote: Fair enough. I'm in a bad mood because I got fired yesterday.

Fired from where?

[Jemistad]

I play in a jazz quartet - we got sacked because they couldn't afford us. We played in a bar - and we got 50 pounds each a night.

[antiklaus]

At 7/26/04 12:38 PM, XcakerX wrote: what do you guys think about it??

any groups trying to get it repealed??

Alex Jones, a controversial anti-authoritarian spokesperson from Austin, Texas, has succeeded in getting it repealed in not only his own hometown, but in 400 other communities as well, all on a grassroots level.

While I don't always agree with what the man has to say, you have to respect a man who can so passionately plead the case of the common man before government bureaucracy.

I'm sure if anyone wanted to start up a campaign in their community, Alex would be glad to get involved and lend a hand.

[The-Enforcer]

At 7/26/04 02:59 PM, antiklaus wrote:
I'm sure if anyone wanted to start up a campaign in their community, Alex would be glad to get involved and lend a hand.

I think most communities want to be protected from terrorists, plus a local or state government can't repeal a federal law.

[antiklaus]

At 7/26/04 03:08 PM, The_Enforcer wrote:

At 7/26/04 02:59 PM, antiklaus wrote:
I'm sure if anyone wanted to start up a campaign in their community, Alex would be glad to get involved and lend a hand.

I think most communities want to be protected from terrorists, plus a local or state government can't repeal a federal law.

I think many communities are waking up to the fact that Patriot Act labels many of their citizens as terrorists without sufficient justification.

And uhm.. yes, they can.. look it up.

RESOLUTION NO. 030925-66

The entire text of which is located at http://news.phaseiii.org/article1270.html

and was adopted by 4 yea, 3 neutral votes
on 9/26/03

[BAWLS]

Kerry's going to tweak it, Nader would repeal it. I personally don't think it needs to be repealed, but I don't know exactly what Kerry would do to it though...

bah

[bumcheekcity]

At 7/26/04 03:40 PM, NotYouZ wrote: Kerry's going to tweak it, Nader would repeal it. I personally don't think it needs to be repealed, but I don't know exactly what Kerry would do to it though...

I think that if it's tweaked, and some of the bits like the secret trials, and unlimited holding without charge of people suspected of terrorism etc. are removed, that'd be fine. But then it would be almost empty. And I'd like that.

[fli]

At 7/26/04 03:08 PM, The_Enforcer wrote:

At 7/26/04 02:59 PM, antiklaus wrote:
I'm sure if anyone wanted to start up a campaign in their community, Alex would be glad to get involved and lend a hand.

I think most communities want to be protected from terrorists, plus a local or state government can't repeal a federal law.

It doesn't protect American from terrorists, but breach rights and liberties. But of course everyone wants to be safe, but nobody wants to be imprisoned due to "suspecious" behavior (which is so cloudy according to PA).

[Spookshow]

Doesn't the "Freedom of Information" act nullify alot of the information they are trying to block? It's not like the FBI reports all of what it does anyways.

[Metal69hed]

All I can say about the Patroit Act is that I'm personally against it, but I know people that are high in rank in the military and have hands in confidental documents and they tell me that this act has saved all our asses more times than we will ever know. But that's all they can say without revealing anything they shouldn't.

I'm against it in a civilian view point, but there's more to it that we don't personally know unless people dropped their blue/white collar jobs and they became a part of the government.

[GooieGreen]

well, what do ya know!

The Patriot Act is like "1984" in real life. I hate it. I'm glad MoveOn.org has information about how there is progress to strip it of its hold on the United States

[Alejandro1]

The best argument against the patriot act is the permission for federal courts and investigators to obtain library records for people suspected of terrorist activity. Interestingly enough, courts were allowed to do that pre-patriot act for suspected criminals; this has helped lead to the capture of many notorious criminals (including the unibomber).

People speak of the patriot act as a hinderance to liberty all the time; however, I have not heard of one case where somebody's rights were violated. Give me one example.

[antiklaus]

People speak of the patriot act as a hinderance to liberty all the time; however, I have not heard of one case where somebody's rights were violated. Give me one example.

I'd give you just one, but why give an ounce when a pound will do.

First one... the Internet company 'PayPal' was unjustly cited and brought under investigation by the FBI because of a small subsection involving gambling revenues. (The had a popup on a page that involved online gambling). There is still pending litigation over this, despite the Ebay purchase of the company.

The University of California Sand Diego student organization "Che' Cafe Collective" was raided and shut down by the FBI for having a link to the FARC webpage "because FARC is a left wing terrorist organization". Strangely, none of the right wing terrorist organizations linked to by two of the conservative clubs on campus were sufficient to cause the FBI to even investigate.

and http://www.disinfopedia.org/wi...t_Act_abuses&printable=yes

has enough other links to articles (at the bottom half of the page) that you'd be a fool to question whether or not Patriot Act has been an anathema to civil rights.

It's obvious that it has.

[The-Last-Cynic]

Well, just tonight I heard that some charity in Texas that gives money to Muslim groups in the Middle East is being charged for funding terrorism. Chances are they were just trying to support their religion not relizing it was hurting people, now under the victory act there gonna get 10 to 50 years. I'll have a link soon.

[antiklaus]

At 7/27/04 11:38 PM, KirbyMan wrote: Well, just tonight I heard that some charity in Texas that gives money to Muslim groups in the Middle East is being charged for funding terrorism. Chances are they were just trying to support their religion not relizing it was hurting people, now under the victory act there gonna get 10 to 50 years. I'll have a link soon.

I didn't post this one, but there was a very angry post on another message base I frequent (of all things, a 3d graphics forum) where a woman was making very angry remarks that her husband (who just happened to share the name of a suspected terrorist) was detained in FBI custody, interrogated, and held without sleep, food, or water for days and was not allowed to make contact with his family or his employer.

If that's not abuse, I don't know what is.

[Gunter45]

The Patriot Act is another example of the government taking things too far. It's hard to make a solid case of the Patriot Act doing more harm than good. It's pretty sick, too, I mean just the fact that it's even called the Patriot Act is pretty twisted.

[fli]

At 7/27/04 04:37 PM, Alejandro1 wrote:
People speak of the patriot act as a hinderance to liberty all the time; however, I have not heard of one case where somebody's rights were violated. Give me one example.

I work in a bank. People often take out lots of money. One person, whom I knew was doing major work on his house because I've passed by there, took out a lot of money. I can't report what it is because I will get in big trouble, but I think I won't be in trouble if I tell you the more or less... Well, I have to report it, even when I know what the money is going to be used. It's the law.

Basically, pre-PA, for the amount of money this guy took, I had to report him to a computer... it monitors it and creates a paper trail, often used to monitor money laundering, sending money to restricted countries (Iraq, Iran, Cuba, parts of the Phillapines), and to certain people (Osama bin Ladin and others).

It's nothing big... it's been around for a long while...

It was all good and well until the PA which urkes me quite a bit. His information can be monitored for "further" suspecious transactions. I don't know how "further" it could mean, but I don't want the government tracking what I buy on my credit card because I withdraw ten thousand for a car 5 years ago...

I have lost count on the amount of people I've reported. If it were up to me, I would not do so unless I have suspicions with credibility.

That's how much I can say without getting any trouble. If I were you, go talk to you branch manager at your bank and ask what the Patriot Act does within the banking system.

[Metal69hed]

I don't know much about the abuses, nor do I know a lot about the Patroit Act other than what I have said. I still stand by what I said, but...

"First one... the Internet company 'PayPal' was unjustly cited and brought under investigation by the FBI because of a small subsection involving gambling revenues. (The had a popup on a page that involved online gambling). There is still pending litigation over this, despite the Ebay purchase of the company."

-- I do know that, even though I have an account with PayPal, they have had a lot of lawsuits against them for various reasons. They aren't a company to trust with large amounts of money I've learned and actually I'm glad that the FBI is investigating them for whatever reason. It could be more than what antiklaus listed here and what the website listed. You can't believe everything you see and hear afterall.

And I have heard of what spanishfli mentioned, and I don't like the idea myself. I know a banker myself. But she does say that for some members she felt that they should have been monitered a long time ago for sending very large sums of money overseas, much more money than what even someone making a six-digit income could not afford to send. It seemed suspicious, and even though this may seem like an invasion of privacy which I do not like at all, I look at the other side of the picture and understand that this type of thing might have been needed long ago.

[antiklaus]

-- I do know that, even though I have an account with PayPal, they have had a lot of lawsuits against them for various reasons. They aren't a company to trust with large amounts of money I've learned and actually I'm glad that the FBI is investigating them for whatever reason. It could be more than what antiklaus listed here and what the website listed. You can't believe everything you see and hear afterall.

Actually, I personally find PayPal's practices very unsavory. Anyone who can freeze your account for and its assets for 180 days for not agreeing with their politics (at least publically on your websites) is obviously no champion of the business world. (You might keep that in mind, yourself if you have such an account).
BUT, legally, they are in their rights. Just as are they to accept revenue from online gambling companies.
Does this relationship with online gambling companies warrant a lengthy investigation and costly litigation from the govt? Or even surrender of nine months of revenues just because they took place in a window framing the period around 9/11???
Personally, I don't think so. Patriot Act disagrees.

I didn't site a source (mostly because there were a lot better ones on the link site I posted), but if you are interested in checking my veracity, look for yourself.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-994810.html

And I have heard of what spanishfli mentioned, and I don't like the idea myself.

They are targetting people trying to get home loans. That's pretty suspect.