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What the hell is wrong with America? We are so quick to point a blaming finger at some freak who lives out in the desert. America is so ignorant to the facts that we automatically think it's Bin Laden. Where's the proof? There is none. It's all circumstantial evidence. We are going to war over assumptions. What if Bin Laden isn't the culprit? Then what? We'll just bomb another Muslim coutry. Afterall there all the same aren't they? They're all terrorists aren't they?
No they are not. Most of them are just regular people like you and me. It's the Taliban who we need to look out for. Not Afghanistan. America needs to get the stone cold facts before pointing the finger at someone.
By the way I'm a red-blooded American born and raised. It's just sickening how fast the investigation is going and we are ready to go to war....over ASSUMPTIONS.

Actually, that letter made me change what I wish to be done. I said we should turn the Middle East into a parking lot, and in some ways I still think
it wouldn't be a bad idea, but now I have a new suggestion. There are many elite military units in the world today. In the United States we have the U.S. Army Special Forces (Green Berets) and the Navy SEALS (Sea-Air-Land). The British have their SAS (Special Air Service). The Russians have the SPETSNAZ (SPETSialnoye NAZranie, "troops of special purpose). The Israelis have the Sayeret Matkal (The Unit). And the French have their GIGN (Goupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale, "National Gendarmes Intervention Group"). All of these units are designed for anti-terrorism. My point? We should have this Osama Bin Laden fucker already. If we use our combined forces around the world this would be a joke. So lets get on it people and crucify this shithead.

My main reason for posting this was, what does it make you think? Does it change your view of Afghanistan? Does it change your feelings towards what must be done to end this conflict?

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I agree with the Afghani dude. Bombing is out of the question. Snipers trained on Osama's fucking head is the answer

see the real question is...are they willing to fight through a billion drones set on the goal of killing each and every American or other non islamic nationalities. Would you like to look into the eyes of men trained since they were 7 to hate and destroy. All for the glory of their fabulous allah.

Now that takes you to the karan or quaran how ever you spell it. It clearly states that killing another man woman or child is against their religious laws. And they kill Americans and Jews like they were stepping on ants. It's funny how easily minds are influenced just by a few words.

Osama is manipulating every person in the Talaban into thinking that hey will win this war fo the greater good. He knows that there will be countless casulties but still he presses on. He is daranged, he isn't psychotic, he has his mind set on a goal...he plans to follow it through no matter what the cost.

I do think that it would be better to seak and destroy rather then bombing what we think is his HQ and it ends up being another innocent by-standards home. But how do you expect to get past killing machines set on protecting the all mighty master? How can we even comprehend what forces he has. It's gonna take time, and patience to draw him out.

but the way we're looking at this, I mean, the people who arranged the men to board the planes looked like the guy next door. It really sounds harsh but you can't trust anyone, not just the islamics but anyone. God knows what people will do for money and Osama has plenty of that. So until we get rid of him and the whole terrorist organizations. Pain is Temporary Bones Heal Glory Lasts Forever

A really big problem with this is...
from day one, the Bush administration has been speaking with anger and strong words.......

Despite our viewpoint, the people in the government are listening to the misled mass. While discussion online is interesting, shouldn't we make our viewpoints heard on Capitol Hill? ...but HOW?

When I heard the attack, first I thought "OH DEAR GOD NO..." then i thought "WHY DID THIS HAPPEN RIGHT WHEN A TRIGGER-HAPPY PRESIDENT IS IN OFFICE?"...

sigh. i dont want a fucking WW3, man.

The way I see it, there may be still a solution:

Take out the rat's nest. Get help in there, and eliminate the bully that is the Taliban. The Northern alliance has offered aid. Let's accept. They know the area far better than anyone else, so they will provide some advantages we wouldn't have otherwise.

Bombing from a distance won't help. No problem. We have the capabilities. It is time to use them.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." --Sun Tzu.

I'm wodering if we are about to enter WWIII, but as I sit here watching "Hogan's Heros", I can't remember if the series takes place in WWI or WWII. I always confuse the two.
I know what you're thinking; "Stupid girl, have something important to say." Isn't it sad that I can't think about last Tuesday anymore without crying? I don't know when that feeling will go away. I'm sure if (hopefully not when) this results in a war, it will be years until I'm back to my old happy self.

Alright, i just felt like bitching, so bare with me.

First, this bin laden guy, he sure is smart and tricky. Of course he is, the CIA trained him. The first Bush administration trained him to fight his enemies. They also supplied weapons and man power. Then all of a sudden, we abandoned bin laden and he's been pissed ever since. SO, all in all, America is kinda to blame for this and all of bin laden's actions anyways. And on that, if we taught him, shouldn't we be able to capture him easier?

On the topic of people milking a disaster, shouldn't America be milking this baby to it's extreme? For the first time in.... i'm sure ever, every country is on our side. Whether it's out of genuine concern, fear of being victims of terrorism themselves, or are just trying to make it look like they care for politcal reasons, everyone, save for extremists groups within countries, is on our side. Shouldn't we take this opportunity to make peace with all those countries we've been pissing off for so long?

For the first time ever, i'm glad we have Bush in office. Although an idiot, at least his family is bloodthirsty. I fear how Gore would've handled this. We need to strike back, whether completely leveling Afghanistan, or moving in troops to reduce civilian casualties, action needs to be taken. Usually after any act of terrorism, at least half a dozen groups take claim on it. No one wants to take claim to this. Why? because every country is taking notice and saying they'll back America in any action we take, so terrorists are scared shitless. If we don't strike, it'll allow for terrorist to feel at ease for making another attack.

As for the actual assault, civilian casualties need to be limited. We need to stay on the good side of all other nations, we can't become like the terrorists. Not everyone in Afghanistan is a terrorist, and so it's not justified to kill everyone there. If we kill everyone, all other countries will jump down our throats, and it's not like we need them hating us more.

Anyways, it's just a few thoughts....

Another thing: Anti-patriotism. "We must feel for other cultures," they say. Fuck cultures. America's culture is the best, and you know it. We have freedom for everything. We can say what we want, when we want, and who about. Soldiers do not roam the streets in America gunning down rioters. We have the best fucking culture in the world, and whatever culture doesn't follow ours DESERVES to be hit by missile attacks. They DESERVE to be wiped out. Friggin' hippies who hate America so much...Why don't THEY go and live in Russia or Afghanistan? Then they'll come crying back 'You were so right' they'd say.

I can't be bothered to reply to your other stupidites, as others already have, but lemme tell you that USA is not the best culture. To say that people who are from different cultures should be killed is absolute madness. Right, a world of USA, great fun huh. You say you've been to foreign countries, well obviously you didn't like it, you narrow-minded racistic moron.

Besides, Sweden is a lot better than the USA. We've got more freedom and more wealth, less bums less poor and most importantly we've got better looking chicks. And we aren't fat, hahahahahahahhahahah.

that's it, gotta go

If I were president.. (You should thank the Lord I'm not..) I would simply finance the anti-Taliban factions, that is, refrain from direct involvement. Assure the defeat of that extremist party, pour funds into rebuilding.. could work, no? Bread, wine and games... the prefect formula to subdue a nation. It worked for the romans, and believe me, is still in effect, to this day.

Bad what happened.
US civilians were killed. Near 6000 it seems.
How many foreign civilians US army killed during the last years ? Not at once, that's why it's not that hard.
Irakians to start. Kicking Saddam's ass ? Yeah, it looked like a good idea, to restore peace and democracy. Crap ! US army just settled in Arab countries, killed some iraki soldiers, killed more than 6000 iraki civilians and is starving the pop there to death with the embargo. Did this change anything to Saddam's life ? No, he is still living in a castle, eating meat everyday, doing all he wants. From iraki point of view, civilians, Saddam dictatorship was hard, but it's Americans who killed more of them. Once Gulf war was won, they could have put Saddam away, the reason was supposedly to restore democracy and remove the Iraki threat on Arabi. But there, US army should have left. So they let Saddam, to keep their soldiers here and ensure that the price of the petrol is still so low for America. Or they just attack. That's the only reason. Now NATO soldiers die from the Gulf war disease.
Bin Ladden asked the US army to leave his country, Arabi, and stop threatening them, to stop supporting the king and his puppets who starve the pop here. This is fair. But US said no, too much money in the game.
After that he attacked several militarian targets.
Still in the game of settling democracy all over the world, America made the taliban lead Afghanistan. These guys are the opposite of democracy, they are the bigger drug producers in the world. America put them there just to taunt the russians. Just to make fun of them, they put one more dictatorship in place, giving weapons to islamic terrorists to beat them.
And what was supposed to happen happened.

I say they looked for it. They really did everything for this to happen, building it, motivating it, and more than everything, it's only justice. I hear Bush saying "We will revenge". But what happened in the States is already an avenge. 6000 people died and some buildings collapsed. Hey, that's what US army is causing every year in the world.
Stop getting angry after me, I say all this is sad.
Cause what I see is that it's always civilians who pay the bill. US civilians, Iraki civilians, Afghani civilians, Arabic civilians. North Americans are angry, but they only discover what is happening to 4/5th of the world because of their leaders since so many years. Dictatorships almost everywhere in the world are still there cause England and America wants it, and you stupid you are just happy to have cheap gas and confortable life.
OPEN YOUR EYES !
US army is not there to protect the civilians, like all armies of NATO countries. They are there to protect themselves first, and the country leaders, and the system. And they are the tool of country leaders to make money.
On our lives, we civilians. Even on soldiers life. A hand of people makes war and kill people just for money and power.
How sad !

At 9/17/01 05:42 PM, Tesla_Trooper wrote: America was attacked by two planes that slammed into the World Trade Center Towers. Thousands of innocent Americans lost their lives. The Pentagon was attacked by the same terrorist group. This is a direct assault on America's military. Those are the facts. Now, for my opinion.

Liberals say that we should not counter this attack. "We might hurt innocent children," they say. Well, you know what? Fuck the children. I could care less about the damn children that get hit. How many children died in the attack on the towers? Much more than a tomahawk missile's debris field when we bomb the country harboring the terrorists who did this. How many innocent civilians must die before these bleeding hearted morons finally realize that we have to do something.

Another thing: Anti-patriotism. "We must feel for other cultures," they say. Fuck cultures. America's culture is the best, and you know it. We have freedom for everything. We can say what we want, when we want, and who about. Soldiers do not roam the streets in America gunning down rioters. We have the best fucking culture in the world, and whatever culture doesn't follow ours DESERVES to be hit by missile attacks. They DESERVE to be wiped out. Friggin' hippies who hate America so much...Why don't THEY go and live in Russia or Afghanistan? Then they'll come crying back 'You were so right' they'd say.

The terrorists who committed this atrocity deserve to die, as does the country that accepts them. There is no downplaying the situation. There is no saying "it's overexaggerated." Serve your country, people, one way or another. Because if you don't, it may not be around for you to bitch about later.

You have the highest rate of people living under the misery limit of all "civilized" countries and you think you got the best culture. That's exactly this kinda words who makes the whole world think you are just some stupid people who believes everything their government says. Hopefully, reading Tom's and other's words I can see it's not the case for every one, but humility can sometimes teach things. Maybe you should think a little more and watch in the world what is happening because of the CIA for example, wars, dictatorships, terrorism. An example ? Who made the talibans what they are ? Cool sick culture who can think to this and support it.
Till it goes back in your face !

I personally believe bombing civilian targets is wrong. However, I do firmly believe that collateral damage is acceptable. If we are going to bomb military installations, and some stupid Pakistan kid gets hit by debris (he's been taught that the U.S.A is evil anyway) and dies, I personally could not care less. Sorry for his family, but a lot more died in the Trade Center bombings, and if we don't bomb the bastards who harbor or did this heinous crimes, then we'd just prove ourself to be soft and weak.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

-Darth Vader, Star Wars

Great; just great. We have a radical on our hands, folks.
Okay... imagine a boy who lives in Pakistan or Afghanistan. (This is just a possibility; don’t get all over my ass about, “well how do you know he exists…” just fuck off if you‘re thinking that) He is a bright child, could perhaps grow up and make something of himself. He doesn’t know much about America, as his parents never mentioned it much; therefore, he had mostly neutral feelings concerning America (similarly to how we felt about Afghanistan before Tuesday: “Where in the bloody hell is that? Ah, screw it; s’not like I care.”) He doesn't have much, but he loves his parents and does the best he can living in a third-world country.
One day, some bomber planes fly over him. He dies.
But, fuck, who cares, right? You obviously don't; to you, he's just "some stupid Pakistan kid." Heh...that's all foreigners are to you, eh?. Just another face in the crowd of people who you don't give a shit about. God, you sound more and more like the terrorists by the minute. It's all about the expendability of innocents and extracting revenge, isn't it? It's all about pushing back harder than they pushed you, isn't it? And without even thinking, either. You don't give a shit what you hit, do you: kids, mothers, dads; just like those who died on 9/11/01. Just as innocent. Having just as much to do with the provocation of the attacks. And just what good will hitting ANY particular middle-Eastern country do, anyhow? No one knows for sure where Bin Laden is hiding out(not to mention that not one person in this self-interested country can say with indisputable proof in their mind that Bin Laden is the guy who did this in the first place), and if you had read this post's article at ALL, you'd know that the people of Afghanistan have been under an oppressive government for nearly 5 years. They all had just as much to do with the bombing as WE did.
"well lots of people died in the bombings!" OK; so that excuses us to run amok and kill anyone we like? Including bystanders and people completely unassociated with the Taliban? Why are we all SO CONVINCED that two wrongs make a right? We're not even striking out at the real enemy. We're trying to bomb another one of their VICTIMS.
Gad, you freaks constantly succeed to sicken me with your stupidity. And fuck, who cares if the terrorists (or anyone else, for that matter) views us as "soft and weak" for not bombing another country on a whim. First off, if other people think we're so goddamn yellow, then they can very well bomb Afghanistan themselves. Let THEM take the blame when they find out that Bin Ladin moved to San Fran while they were busy burning civilians to a crisp. Furthermore, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd choose being labeled as "soft and weak" in the eyes of some country founded by some militant maniac, over being labeled as "short-sighted, impulsive, and ludicrously destructive" by the rest of the U.N.

"I think that you need a good psychiatrist... to stab you in the head."
-I make my OWN quotes, you whore

Hot damn...as eloquent a letter as I have ever read. This is first person perspective on something that I very strongly agree about. People in general, including us Americans, are often too quick to jump to conclusions. I agree that what happened is tragic and what happened needs to be dealt with, i.e. the people responsible for the tragedy need to be punished severely. However, I also believe that our first step is to find out FOR SURE who the hell did it and then shove our collective foot up their ass. I have heard accounts of Americans of Middle Eastern descent being heckled, harassed, and even attacked because they are assumed to have been a part of that attack simply because of their ethnicity. This is a GROSS injustice. Americans come from all sorts of different places and countries to seek out a better life, and sometimes that includes getting the fuck away from psychoes like Bin Laden. The Middle Eastern Americans who are hard working, decent people do not deserve to be punished by other Americans who should be their brothers and sisters and not their assailants. I know we're all angry, but please, let's save our anger and violent impulses for those who really deserve it.

The Taliban themselves do not have the power to take out America. They made a foolish attempt at that already. What needs to happen is our military needs to occupy Afganistan and smoke out the Taliban like bees from a hive. They will hide in fear, but we have the resources to find them. It is true that Afganistan is already a war torn "parking lot", and if a few innocent lives have to be taken to rid the world of these maniacs, so be it. Thats the ugly face of war. But in the long run, it would be the best thing that ever happened to the Afganian people. The next step would be to aid the innocent people and help them create their own government, and not some crazy religious movement. They dance in the streets at our suffering, because they are lead to believe that the US is responsible for their hardship.The Taliban will continue to ravage Afganistan, and point the fingers else where. It's time to break those fingers, no matter what the cost.
John

At 9/17/01 12:36 PM, EntropicOrder wrote: What would happen if one of the many freaks living in our very own nation were to flip out and go crash a plane into an afganistan building? Would you (as an innocent civilian) want to be held responsible for that man's actions?!?! Of course not.

Think the golden rule people. Without it not only will innocent suffer, but possibly our entire species.

As I said though, that doesn't mean something shouldn't be done. Punish those responsible.

The Afghani e-mail is originally from www.salon.com.

:smoke out the Taliban like bees from a hive.

Remember me of a little guy with a mustach who said the same thing of jews.

:and if a few innocent lives have to be taken to rid the world of these maniacs, so be it.

That's exaclty what they did. And think.

:Thats the ugly face of war.

You seem to enjoy this. Sad.

:But in the long run, it would be the best thing that ever happened to the Afganian people.

Kill them, they'll like it and say thanks. US army is killing innocent people in the world since too long now, and the only thing it does is that they want to die killing Americans. You should think of solving the problem, not avenging and increasing it.

:The next step would be to aid the innocent people and help them create their own government, and not some crazy religious movement.

Who created the talibans ? US government.

:They dance in the streets at our suffering, because they are lead to believe that the US is responsible for their hardship.

Are u sure it's completely wrong ? The talibans were put there by the CIA. US is supporting Israel killing on Palestinians. Without US, the Israel oppression would have stopped. So they think US is responsible and I can't say they are wrong. Anyway being happy of USA slap in the face is one thing, being happy of civilians dying is ugly. But so many like you, just a little less moderate say they'll be happy that Afghanis civilians die. It's the same. Wait for people to die in Afghanistan, civilians, and watch extremists in the US who will just dance too.

:The Taliban will continue to ravage Afganistan, and point the fingers else where. It's time to break those fingers, no matter what the cost.

Massoud begged and prayed US to help him. Now it's too late, they killed him too and resistance there got no more charismatic leader.

John

ST

And you still don't know who did it.

If we put innocent people at risk of death by going over with ground troops what is the difference between that and nuking the sumbitches but i agree that one of the only ways we get osama is to take out taliban becuase without his throne and his kingdom behind him he is impotent.
Me out
~Rein~

Just remember that we STILL haven't been able to completely blame bin Laden yet. And even if it was him, there were probably other terrorist networks working with him...who knows?

As for Tom's post, I thank you Tom for posting that. The fundamentalists want a war people! They'll die for their cause without fear because they are THAT hell bent that their ideas. And they'll fight with full force for their cause as well. They want a war, and they think that they will defeat us (the West) and our ideas.

I personally think taking out bin Laden isn't going to do it because one of his psycho followers will just take his place. Terrorism is always be around I think, it's just that we have to wipe out their resources and have better fucking security here in the states.

Did you know that someone who works at Starbucks is more trained at their job than the security at airports? That's why this happened! We never thought in a million years that a bunch of psychos would hijack 4 of our planes...and then go to find out that we actually trained these pilots in our OWN COUNTRY!!! The stupid airlines didn't spend enough of security, and now they realize their mistake.

*sigh* Well, hopefully Bush will be SMART about this and not just go and bomb countries. And hopefully this won't turn into some full-scale war....or even a draft...but we just don't know do we?

By the way, WHAT U.S. terrorist attacks? Are you referring to bombing Iraq's radar stations or something? The United States has never terrorized potentially, I don't know where you get this innaccurate anti-American crap.

Oh my God. No wonder foriegners say that Americans are stupid.

I pretty much feel as the writer does. The everyday people of this country have nothing left to lose. The only real way to get Ladin is to send in ground troops and ferret him out. He will hide like a snake under a rock and let all the innocent people get hurt. We have to be careful and not let this become another Vietnam. This should be a no holds barred effort with no governmetnal constraints on what can and cannot be doen to get him. It is s shame but we must go DOWN to his level in order to get him.

It is s shame but we must go DOWN to his level in order to get him.

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Fortunately, I don't think we need to sink to the terrorists' level in bringing Bin Laden to trial and justice. Sinking to the terrorists' level would entail risking civilian lives. However, if we can pinpoint Bin Laden's position, then all we have to do is send in a 40man strong SEAL team to do things to him that he hasn't even contemplated in his wildest dreams. Best part of all? Virtually no risk of civilian casualities. :)

Like many Americans, I at first wanted revenge. Nothing more than Bin Laden crushed under a collapsed building or helpless in a plane about to fall out of the sky.

It is natural to have these feelings. Over 5,000 innocent civilians (Americans, British, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese, Middle Easterners, you name it) have been killed without provocation. A recent poll whosed that 54% of Americans feel this atrocity is worse than Pearl Harbor for God's sake!

We're all upset, but, let's stop to think before we take action. I didn't know really what had been going on in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Shit, I barely know where the country is. I think it's time the American people do their homework before coming to any conclusions about what should be done.

I know it's hard, but set your emotions aside a little bit. Be sure you are totally informed before making any decisions about what our retaliation, if any, should be.

Hi I am a New York citizin this is not something that was should ever take likly people have bin saying we are over reacting but to tell you the truth we are not. it has bin a harible trasity it the city and people have died. this isen't like 5 people died this is more like 10,000 people that died. they had no reson to dei all they did is go on there live then all of a sudden this happen. i don't know you feel about this but i feel tereble about this. the coutry that did this is going to pay baybe not from me or baybe not from you but we should try are best to keep are haids up hye and we will not stand for this. bayben't do anything but Amarica can Thank You for lisening and i hope you that had a family member die i know that i can't help you but i wish u well and i hope you have a good life and keep this in your hart. this has bin a trasity in Amarica but this hasen't cept us apert it has kept us together as a country.

from Andrew a cosern sitizin and if u r wondering i am 12 bye and god brese you all.

I think that we should only punish those involved in the acctually destroying of the WTC and killing of many innocent lives. The way i see it is, ok they attacked us, we by all rights have the right to blow the crap out of them....but...we should not be just as bad as them and kill their innocents and destroy and desicrate their monuments. I am sure there will be more innocent lives taken, but thats what war is about, takeing of lives. Like the thousands upon thousands of lives taken at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, are we just as bad as those terrorists who destroyed the world trade center? sure the Japanese attacked us a pearl harbor, but they did not destroy our entire country, just as the terrorists only "awakened the sleeping giant" as well, we can't fly over and nuke them...what happnes when the wind carries the gigantic radioactive cloud accross the border to countries that have nothing to do with the actions of afghanistan, should they die of radiation posoning, just because they live next to afghanistan, nope i dun think so.

Ok...we've understand very well what the situation is.

We have two way now:

1) A blind Fight
2) Find the reason of the disaster.

1) We can start fight with all the power of the Atlantic alleance...maybe we could win... but are we shure that (after the ordeal) nobody will born again with the same cruel intentions of Mr. Bin Laden?

2) We can listen for the reason of this fact...but we have to be shure that those words will reach us without the filter of the system. Maybe those people tried many and many times to have a contact with us but nobody gived a fuck about it.

After all, we must punish the responsable of that olocaust, and let grow up only positive people on that side.
The war is a point of no return.

Don't forget it.

I'm writing from Italy, I lived in the states for a short period and I love that country.

I want to be free to come back in the States in the future without the Damocle sword on my head.

We must be stronger and wiser than those crazy guys.

Drillpipe.