Be a Supporter!

Discussion of Current Events

  • 6,250 Views
  • 205 Replies
Respond to this Topic
TomFulp
TomFulp
  • Member since: Dec. 15, 1999
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Staff
Level 13
Game Developer
Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 11:06 AM Reply

We've heard a lot of different response to recent events - many people want to turn Afghanistan into a parking lot, while others want to shower Osama Bin Laden with love and show him we are not the monsters he thinks we are. I would personally like to see his head on a stick, but before we discuss extremes, lets take a look at someone else's perspective. The following is part of an email thread written by Tamim Ansary, Afghani-American writer. He gives his American friends the perspective through his Afghani eyes:

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do
with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators.

They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there were 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan - a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering.

Level their houses? Done.

Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.

Eradicate their hospitals? Done.

Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care?

Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing.

Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban - by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed.

Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people.

Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?

You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.

That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would
mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

I'm not sure when this email was written - but Pakistan has since pledged support to the US. I am guessing that would include sending ground troups through Pakistan. I also doubt that we will be turning Afghanistan into a parking lot. Anyone who has been reading up on our current military status may have seen that we have two prototype planes with high powered lasers, capable of destroying a single human target in a crowd from 180 miles away. I'd like to see us use that between Osama's legs. But I'm getting sidetracked...

My main reason for posting this was, what does it make you think? Does it change your view of Afghanistan? Does it change your feelings towards what must be done to end this conflict?

Luftballoon
Luftballoon
  • Member since: Aug. 17, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 08
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 11:18 AM Reply

There should be no distinction between governments that harbor terrorists and the terrorists themselves. I agree with the US Government on that.

While it is true that many Afghans could be harmed or killed as a result the Taliban could easily prevent all of this by just handing over Bin Laden. Then they wouldn't have to worry about a US Attack.

The reason they don't hand over Bin Laden is so that they can keep the loyalty of soldiers who swear loyalty to him.

Its obvious that the Taliban favor their military over their civilians, its time for Uncle Sam to bust out the Warheads.

arrogancy
arrogancy
  • Member since: Jun. 28, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 11:22 AM Reply

I just posted that article as well. I already wrote a long "anti-bombing" article on my site. I also wrote this today (excerpts):

In the comments section on one of the articles written, someone made the analogy of the “war movement” in America being comparable to Starship Troopers.

This analogy is almost perfect. You know, in Starship Troopers, the bugs attacked Earth because humans were taking their territory away. Sound familiar? Of course, that was glossed over by the media in that movie…similarly to what is being done now. Of course, “the only good bug is a dead bug.”

Would you like to learn more?

I’m tired of arguing pacifism vs. aggression - I agree that pacifism poses disadvantages, but what outcome is potentially worse? There is no solution; that is the problem with politics.

However, I am making this post to address another, more pressing issue. One that we can actually do something about.

The World Trade Center bombing has shown us just how stupid people can be. I don’t just mean the ignorant “America is good, everyone else is bad” comments that you hear. I mean some of the idiotic sentimental jargon that some of the webmasters and camgirls have come up with.

The human animal has a longing to be noble and dramatic, just as it enjoys drawing attention to itself. The attacks of New York and Washington have sparked many webmasters, camgirls, and flash animators (I use that term loosely) to draw attention to themselves under the guise of empathy. I personally find this to be more disgusting than some of the anti-Arab comments that I’ve been hearing. For instance…

(snip)

(continued)

EVERY SINGLE PERSON that I’ve shown that video to has come up with a comment equivalent to “How can someone have the gall to try to profit off of the tragedy like this?” And I agree. The self-promotion that is so obviously evident in this video can be likened to the people trying to sell pieces of the building on EBay, or the ones pretending to be doctors so that they can get onto the disaster site. I can’t believe that there were people that allowed themselves to be suckered in by this.

Well actually, I can.

Next, we have Newgrounds – the site where anyone and everyone can submit their flash movies. After seeing that people were getting front page coverage and high ratings for their WTC tribute movies, everyone and their uncle decided to make a crappily-done tribute that involved little more than a picture slideshow to some melodramatic music. People whose movies create a total average of 0.56 saw their opportunity to finally get a decent rating by milking people’s sentimentality. This has resulted in a bunch of low effort, no talent movies being ranked higher than pieces that people put tons of effort into. Perhaps the worst part is that people who give the movies high ratings think that it is bad to rank the movie low since the “message” is so good.

In case they haven’t noticed, the message is to milk the tragedy for a high score. Something Awful was doing a great job of talking about some of those movies – I urge you to go there if you haven’t yet. And by the way, here are a few examples:

“United We Stand”

“My WTC Tribute”

“9/11/01 a day to remember”

“God Bless the U.S.A.”

And the worst one so far, complete with Final Fantasy 7 music:

“Us And Terrorists”

(snip) (end copy)

Like I told you before, I'm more disgusted by people trying to milk the tragedy than all of the anti-Palestine sentiment combined. Those are my thoughts.

arrogancy
arrogancy
  • Member since: Jun. 28, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 11:24 AM Reply

At 9/17/01 11:18 AM, Luftballoon wrote: There should be no distinction between governments that harbor terrorists and the terrorists themselves. I agree with the US Government on that.

While it is true that many Afghans could be harmed or killed as a result the Taliban could easily prevent all of this by just handing over Bin Laden. Then they wouldn't have to worry about a US Attack.

The reason they don't hand over Bin Laden is so that they can keep the loyalty of soldiers who swear loyalty to him.

Its obvious that the Taliban favor their military over their civilians, its time for Uncle Sam to bust out the Warheads.

I say all the supporters of nukes go over there and fight it out hand to hand with the people that support the terrorism. Let's get rid of all the idiots at once.

tkeme2urleadr
tkeme2urleadr
  • Member since: Sep. 17, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 02
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 11:34 AM Reply

Fuck em...Those people at the pentagon...innocent civilians...those people in the airplanes...men,women and children...all innocent civilians...the thousands of people in the WTC's...very innocent civilians...Kill em all...now

At 9/17/01 11:06 AM, TomFulp wrote: We've heard a lot of different response to recent events - many people want to turn Afghanistan into a parking lot, while others want to shower Osama Bin Laden with love and show him we are not the monsters he thinks we are. I would personally like to see his head on a stick, but before we discuss extremes, lets take a look at someone else's perspective. The following is part of an email thread written by Tamim Ansary, Afghani-American writer. He gives his American friends the perspective through his Afghani eyes:

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do
with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators.

They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there were 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan - a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering.

Level their houses? Done.

Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.

Eradicate their hospitals? Done.

Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care?

Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing.

Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban - by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed.

Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people.

Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?

You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.

That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would
mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

I'm not sure when this email was written - but Pakistan has since pledged support to the US. I am guessing that would include sending ground troups through Pakistan. I also doubt that we will be turning Afghanistan into a parking lot. Anyone who has been reading up on our current military status may have seen that we have two prototype planes with high powered lasers, capable of destroying a single human target in a crowd from 180 miles away. I'd like to see us use that between Osama's legs. But I'm getting sidetracked...

My main reason for posting this was, what does it make you think? Does it change your view of Afghanistan? Does it change your feelings towards what must be done to end this conflict?
pat-man
pat-man
  • Member since: May. 10, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 13
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 11:47 AM Reply

The Taliban must be removed from power, and eradicated, it's leaders tried for crimes against humanity as the Nazi's were.
The Taliban is an embarrasing blight on the human race.
The Recognized government must be restored in Afganistan and the world must then help them rebuild.

AlphaFactor
AlphaFactor
  • Member since: Jan. 13, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 31
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 12:02 PM Reply

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators.

=============================
=============================
=============================

This guy's right. Bin Laden is just some other half-crazed kook that has as little to do with representing the people of Afghanistan as Hitler had to do with representing the people of Germany. Sure, we COULD launch an avalanche of cruise missles and reduce Afghanistan to a crater by the end of next week, but many thousands, perhaps many millions, of innocents would die in the process thereby lowering us to a level almost as despicable as the maniacs that flew the planes into the side of Manhatten. Who's our enemy? Bin Laden. What do we do to him? Drag him by the collar to stand trial and face justice. Missles would be useless in hitting him anyway. He travels in convoys that rarely number more than 50 people of which less than 10 are ever heavily armed. The hard part is figuring out where he'll be and when. But, when we do figure that out, it's only a matter of sending out a 100 or so SEALs to intercept the convoy, and then put Bin Laden and his 50 men in a single 3' x 3' wooden-crate bound for the US and a very, very angry federal judicary.

To the people of Afghanistan: know that there are those out there who will not kill you and then atribute your death to "collaterol damage" in our quest to obtain Bin Laden.

To Bin Laden: Your days are numbered, mother-fucker.

TheJinxed
TheJinxed
  • Member since: Dec. 23, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 20
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 12:23 PM Reply

as a brit i dont really have the emotional involvement as most of the yanks. But i think Bin Laden or whoeva should be punished, not the whole of Afghan. Surely as America knows what it is like for innocent people to die, no more should on one of bushes power trips.

SK
SK
  • Member since: Jan. 2, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 06
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 12:27 PM Reply

Lets talk about innocent lives you stupid afgan. Your "people" killed many innocent people in the WTC and Pentagon not to mention other who died when the building fell on them. We will fuck all those afgans there. Hell well be doing them a favor, ending them of there misery. They want to fuck with us, they think they know bad, huh, their a fucking choir boy compared to us, a choir boy!

EntropicOrder
EntropicOrder
  • Member since: Apr. 21, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 10
Game Developer
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 12:31 PM Reply

This doesn't change anything I feel because I already believed that. Just because a bunch of our innocent people died doesn't mean that we should "return the favor" on other innocent people. I'm not afraid to admit that I am at least partially ignorant of the correct thing to be done, but most people are. Rather than think about what they are saying, they just react with fighting fire with fire.

Something must be done, but it doesn't have to mean killing more innocent people.

DrMSM
DrMSM
  • Member since: Dec. 15, 1999
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 60
Reader
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 12:32 PM Reply

I am in full agreement with the writer of the e-mail that Tom posted. Understandably, we are upset and we want blood for out lost, but is that the American way? We shouldn't stoop to the levels of the barbarians that perpetrated this, nor should we make the populous of Afghanistan suffer-they've suffered whole lives worse than our one day last Tuesday, in most cases. The Taliban themselves are no more than a retro-loving, women and free-speech suppressing bunch of hoods who sadly enough had OUR support in 1980 and on. Without them, Bin Laden and his band of "Muslims" (I use the term lightly, as they are nothing close to the true Muslim religion) would have no where to run. All I would say to all of you, is let justice take its course. If Bin Laden is deported to the US, there isn't a jury on this planet that wouldn't strap him in just as we did to Tim McVeigh last month. But he would have his trial, his say, if he wants it. I severely doubt he would even let it go to a trial, because he's such the coward he would most likely off himself prior to it; similar to Hitler did at the end of the Nazi regime in WWII. Killers like Hitler and Bin Laden never have the cajones to face the real world and real justice anyway.

EntropicOrder
EntropicOrder
  • Member since: Apr. 21, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 10
Game Developer
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 12:36 PM Reply

What would happen if one of the many freaks living in our very own nation were to flip out and go crash a plane into an afganistan building? Would you (as an innocent civilian) want to be held responsible for that man's actions?!?! Of course not.

Think the golden rule people. Without it not only will innocent suffer, but possibly our entire species.

As I said though, that doesn't mean something shouldn't be done. Punish those responsible.

Discussion of Current Events

Wormtail
Wormtail
  • Member since: Apr. 1, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 13
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 12:42 PM Reply

At 9/17/01 12:36 PM, EntropicOrder wrote: What would happen if one of the many freaks living in our very own nation were to flip out and go crash a plane into an afganistan building? Would you (as an innocent civilian) want to be held responsible for that man's actions?!?! Of course not.

Think the golden rule people. Without it not only will innocent suffer, but possibly our entire species.

As I said though, that doesn't mean something shouldn't be done. Punish those responsible.

I think you are right but Bin Laden wants us to do that!Bin Laden wants us to war,he hates America you know.

Taleban should be killed in vicious ways.He supports Osama Bin Laden.

Toastedbread
Toastedbread
  • Member since: Apr. 28, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 02
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:01 PM Reply

I was horrified at what happened. I even witnessed the towers fall... I have not cried since I was 16, all of that changed last tuesday. Someone must pay. I pledge to you now that I will be one of the first in line for the draft if there is to be a war, not because I always have agreed w/our government, but because someone attacked my backyard (I live 5 min from the GWB). Now I am very proud of our government in how they have handled this situation. We have obtained warrents for people's arrests, we have looked for evidence, and we have not jumped to any quick conclusions. So the fact that people say we are going to level Afganistan is a quick judgement. I highly doubt that America is going to jump in and just bomb because we already know that many people in that country and the surrounding areas don't want anything to do with Osama. I know for a fact that this country will go after WHOEVER IS RESPONSIBLE and not just any arab nation. God Bless and God willing to a quick and justful solution to this.

Dante-Kamar
Dante-Kamar
  • Member since: Mar. 7, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 10
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:03 PM Reply

Tamim Ansary's message does make sense. As I under stand it, Afghanistan was to Russia as Vietnam was to the United States. A war which the larger country fought half heartedly and only managed to cause long lasting devistation to the land and people. There is no doubt in my mind that the Afghans need help.
The people are under the tumb of oppresion. Terrorists are running the place, perhaps not the government but still the country. Bombing Afghanistan won't kill the terrorists anymore than destroying a house will kill cockroaches. The terrorists will simply scurry to another hiding hole with little damage done to themselves.

We must deal with Osama Bin Laden carefully. He is intellegent, slippery, and determind to start a large scale war at any cost. As much as I hate to say it, a foot battle may be the only way. Remember how hard it was to bomb Sadam Hussein himself. We never did get the guy and he had to run a government. Osama doesn't need to do anything but hide.

We'll never get 'em with bombing runs. He'll never give himself up. He'll never go away or change his mind. An assaination will make him a martyr. We must go in with troops, capture or kill (in battle of course) any troops that follow Osama, and put Osama Bin Laden himself on trial for war crimes.

Discussion of Current Events

pyroarchy
pyroarchy
  • Member since: Jan. 30, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 16
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:03 PM Reply

i always loved afghani reefer :P

AlphaFactor
AlphaFactor
  • Member since: Jan. 13, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 31
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:09 PM Reply

At 9/17/01 01:03 PM, pyroarchy wrote: i always loved afghani reefer :P

Um, I agree with pyroarchy.

Done1done1done
Done1done1done
  • Member since: Sep. 19, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 16
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:16 PM Reply

Tom, I agree that this isn't about the people of Afghanistan. It's about Bin Ladin, the Taliban, and their supporters. Bombing raids won't work, killing innocents won't work, it's almost like nothing will work. But we will find a way, mostly because we always do.

TomFulp
TomFulp
  • Member since: Dec. 15, 1999
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Staff
Level 13
Game Developer
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:47 PM Reply

At 9/17/01 11:22 AM, arrogancy wrote: Next, we have Newgrounds – the site where anyone and everyone can submit their flash movies. After seeing that people were getting front page coverage and high ratings for their WTC tribute movies, everyone and their uncle decided to make a crappily-done tribute that involved little more than a picture slideshow to some melodramatic music. People whose movies create a total average of 0.56 saw their opportunity to finally get a decent rating by milking people’s sentimentality. This has resulted in a bunch of low effort, no talent movies being ranked higher than pieces that people put tons of effort into. Perhaps the worst part is that people who give the movies high ratings think that it is bad to rank the movie low since the “message” is so good.

You can argue that about everyone, though. Ecommerce sites are making a great show by accepting donations, but do you realize how many Amazon, Yahoo, etc. user accounts they are generating? Everyone who donates money through Amazon.com will no doubt be receiving email from them, and now that Amazon has their info stored in a user profile, they can easily come back and do more shopping. I'm sure Amazon (and all other ecommerce sites) execs were well aware of this, but does it lessen the good they are doing?

There are a lot of people who made Flash movies because they felt strongly about what was going on. It is hard to make a movie about Yogi bear when something as big as this is happening. There are other users who were just doing it for votes and/or traffic, but it is still a much better sentiment than making fun of the situation.

I am linking to Amazon.com without receiving any sort of user data or referal fee, so that seems pretty honorable... But you could say that I am milking the situation by showcasing the movies on the frontpage - they no doubt generate traffic and build our fanbase - but I also can't imagine showcasing anything else on the frontpage at this time. I would feel like a tool if America was about to go to war and I was showcasing the latest nintendo parodies and poop jokes.

-Tom

Septimus
Septimus
  • Member since: Mar. 7, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 28
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:51 PM Reply

At 9/17/01 11:06 AM, TomFulp wrote: We've heard a lot of different response to recent events - many people want to turn Afghanistan into a parking lot, while others want to shower Osama Bin Laden with love and show him we are not the monsters he thinks we are. (snip)

Thank you for posting that Tom. It seems that in the rush for vengeance most everyone forgot that it is the people not the government that will pay the heaviest price if bombing begins. If the US bombs the hell out of Afghanistan, what will we accomplish: Bin Laden and his supporters will have "proof" that we are just as barbaric as they say we are. Then again we could turn the other cheek to show Bin Laden that we aren't the "meanies" that he says we are, what will this accomplish: absolutely nothing, we will appear weak to the world. We must do something, but an arbitrary bombing or a big group hug defiantly won't cut it.

Like I have said so many times before- we must seek justice, not vengeance. Bin Laden and the Taliban are products of the Cold War- if we go in to Afghanistan without a plan; they can keep us there for a very long time and create a lot more hatred of the US and more terrorists. For years, the US and Soviet governments funneled money into warring factions, that is one of the reasons for the hatred of America by so many people. If we must go in there has to be two missions: to get Bin Laden and his associates, and to try to build an infrastructure so the citizens of Afghanistan will be able to stand up against bullies like the Talaban.

Don't let blind rage goad you into something that you will regret. We must think before we proceed, we must be wise in our next move, else the situation will consume us all.

-Septy.

irnbru316
irnbru316
  • Member since: Jun. 18, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 15
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:52 PM Reply

i agree with him....at first i thought a nuke up bin ladens arse would be appropriate but that would sink the U.S and everyone else to their level...too many more innocents would be killed....and as to his opinion that he could beat the west (does that include us? ((I live in scotland)) ) its complete pants...skidro jo smelly bulging with shite pants....in my opinion this osama bin laden fucker is gonna get what's coming to him...and i hope that they get a gorilla to rape him up the arse while an elephant sits on his face and makes him suck......

but that's just my opinion...I personally don't like the idea of going to war but at the same time bombing innocents is fucked up oo...i dunno...but i do know that bin raider laden is gonna get one hell of an ass whuppin....

arrogancy
arrogancy
  • Member since: Jun. 28, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 01:57 PM Reply

There are a lot of people who made Flash movies because they felt strongly about what was going on. It is hard to make a movie about Yogi bear when something as big as this is happening. There are other users who were just doing it for votes and/or traffic, but it is still a much better sentiment than making fun of the situation.

I am linking to Amazon.com without receiving any sort of user data or referal fee, so that seems pretty honorable... But you could say that I am milking the situation by showcasing the movies on the frontpage - they no doubt generate traffic and build our fanbase - but I also can't imagine showcasing anything else on the frontpage at this time. I would feel like a tool if America was about to go to war and I was showcasing the latest nintendo parodies and poop jokes.

-Tom

People in general milk a situation like this for their own selfish use. Given the whole context of the rant I wrote, you could see that it was referring strictly to them.

There's no real way for one to tell someone else's motives, unless it's just BLATANT (such as featuring yourself and your "acting skills" in a tribute), but I wrote that just to make people who have or who were thinking about profiting off of the situation feel just a little bit guilty.

I like to twinge people's consciences. If it does not apply to you, do not take it personally.

arrogancy
arrogancy
  • Member since: Jun. 28, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 02:00 PM Reply

To sum it all up, EVEYONE who made a tribute did not have dishonorable intentions, but many did. And to expound on what Tom was saying about Amazon; for "big business" supporting relief, they're more often than not just promoting company image while giving themselves a nice big tax write-off.

Nonny
Nonny
  • Member since: Sep. 8, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 02
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 02:16 PM Reply

This whole thing has shown me something important. It shows me that there are two types of Americans. There are the true Americans. These Americans concentrate first on aiding the injured, helping out with the recovery, or supporting their fellow Americans any way they can. Then there are the other Americans. The stupid ones. These Americans go around killing (or trying to) Muslims and any body else with a rag on his/her head. It reminds me of the stories of WWII. The Japanese military attacked Pearl Harbor. So what did the stupid idiots of that time do? Well, if their next-door neighbor was of asian decent, they probably vandalised their home and called them chinks or somehting.
The moral of this story? Just because an American has a towel on his/her head, dosen't mean they are a terrorist. They are Americans too. And as for the stupid people who go around yerrorising inocent rag-heads, (Like the moron who drove his car into a mosque) they are barley Americans themselves! Of course we'll get justice, jsut leave that to the mmilitary!
And when push does come to shove, Afganistan probably will "get turned into a parking lot." Although, I was hoping for a glow-in-the-dark crater instead. This way, the U.S. soldiers nuking them can see in the dark, and roast marshmellows without a camp fire.

P.S. For all in the area of Medina Ohio:
The Red Cross will be at Medina Super K-Mart on Septmenber 18, 2001. Please, Give LIfe.

TomFulp
TomFulp
  • Member since: Dec. 15, 1999
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Staff
Level 13
Game Developer
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 02:27 PM Reply

At 9/17/01 01:57 PM, arrogancy wrote:
There are a lot of people who made Flash movies because they felt strongly about what was going on. It is hard to make a movie about Yogi bear when something as big as this is happening. There are other users who were just doing it for votes and/or traffic, but it is still a much better sentiment than making fun of the situation.

I am linking to Amazon.com without receiving any sort of user data or referal fee, so that seems pretty honorable... But you could say that I am milking the situation by showcasing the movies on the frontpage - they no doubt generate traffic and build our fanbase - but I also can't imagine showcasing anything else on the frontpage at this time. I would feel like a tool if America was about to go to war and I was showcasing the latest nintendo parodies and poop jokes.

-Tom
People in general milk a situation like this for their own selfish use. Given the whole context of the rant I wrote, you could see that it was referring strictly to them.

There's no real way for one to tell someone else's motives, unless it's just BLATANT (such as featuring yourself and your "acting skills" in a tribute), but I wrote that just to make people who have or who were thinking about profiting off of the situation feel just a little bit guilty.

I like to twinge people's consciences. If it does not apply to you, do not take it personally.

It didn't bother me at all - it is a good topic that is worthy of discussion - cause I've been thinking about it a lot as well. :)

Where did Something Awful talk about it? I was looking around for it on there...

-Tom

capn-g
capn-g
  • Member since: Jul. 6, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 39
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 02:28 PM Reply

At 9/17/01 12:27 PM, SK wrote: Lets talk about innocent lives you stupid afgan. Your "people" killed many innocent people in the WTC and Pentagon not to mention other who died when the building fell on them. We will fuck all those afgans there. Hell well be doing them a favor, ending them of there misery. They want to fuck with us, they think they know bad, huh, their a fucking choir boy compared to us, a choir boy!

You sir, are the most ignorant human being on the planet. Want to bomb Afgans? Do us all a favor and strap yourself to the first bomb.

arrogancy
arrogancy
  • Member since: Jun. 28, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 02:30 PM Reply

Rich did a writeup on a really bad flash here:

http://www.somethingawful.com/archives/news-archive-13-9-2001.htm

And the Geistmag guy did one the following day.

dagger-happy
dagger-happy
  • Member since: May. 14, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 13
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 02:34 PM Reply

At 9/17/01 12:27 PM, SK wrote: Lets talk about innocent lives you stupid afgan. Your "people" killed many innocent people in the WTC and Pentagon not to mention other who died when the building fell on them. We will fuck all those afgans there. Hell well be doing them a favor, ending them of there misery. They want to fuck with us, they think they know bad, huh, their a fucking choir boy compared to us, a choir boy!

For every level-headed person there's always an idiot who feels like he has to prove his masculinity with neanderthal fighting talk. The Afgahn people haven't "fucked" with anyone. They're just doing their best to live their lives, keep their heads down and not get executed for looking suspicious in the police state that is their home. A group of deranged fanatics were chosen to carry out this atrocity - not a whole nation. When are you going to understand the fact that life is not as simple as we would like it to be? It would be great if we could divide the world into "good" and "bad", but it's a lot more complex. The Afgahn civilians do not deserve to bare the brunt of the USA's rage because they happen to have been born there. I understand that Bush MUST do SOMETHING in response to the attackers, but it seems so futile in hurling missiles at crumbling towns in a desperate attempt to exact vengeance on the people who will no doubt be huddled in their underground bunkers, while their people - once again - pay the price.

GiR
GiR
  • Member since: Jul. 11, 2000
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 04
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 02:51 PM Reply

Hmmmm... everyone is making a good point. I do have one idea of conspiracy... but I don't know. Here is something that I e-mailed my friends:

I think that the gov't started this whole thing. FACT: In the WTC, when the planes crashed into the buildings, everything in the plane and around that area of the building melted because it was so hot. And yet, the US gov't claims to have found one of the terrorists passports. FACT: When the buildings collapsed, they imploded to an extent, like how when they implode buildings that are no longer needed. If a huge plane crashes into a building, and it collapsed, wouldn't it fall over on its side just a little bit??

Now, the way the building collapsed could have been set up earlier by terrorists by putting plastic explosives of something like that in the walls, by working as a janitor or something. But the fact remains that the passport that they "found" could not have survived. Again, the terrorists could have somehow have planted that after the accident, but how? It would be easier for the US gov't to maybe pay a person to "find" it.

End of that e-mail. I do think that we should NOT bomb Afganistan. It wouldn't help anything. It would just cause more death and dying and war... nobody really wants that. I know I sure don't. One idea a teacher of mine had was to go to each country (starting w/ I think Libya) and demmand that if they really didn't support terrorism, to send all the terrorists out w/in 24 hours and if they don't, we attack just that single country, then go on to the next country and the next doing exactly the same thing.

End of 16-year-old-girls thoughts.

Wyldfyre
Wyldfyre
  • Member since: May. 4, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 06
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion of Current Events Sep. 17th, 2001 @ 03:20 PM Reply

Man, the posting has been frequent, long, and in more than one case, fierce. So many people, with so many different attitudes to the situation. Might as well add my thoughts in.

I don't mind saying that the situation scares the living hells out of me. Not just the fact that all the people here were injured, ruined financially, or died. Don't get me wrong, now. I could hardly speak most of 9/11 and the morning of 9/12. But as much as the tragedies got to me, there are two things that make me very afraid for my life, and for the world.

First, the jump in hate crimes, especially towards certain ethnic and religious groups. (No offense meant; I don't remember the exact names so I'm just saying it that way.) I don't like seeing anyone getting treated badly, and I feel sorrow that some people want to take out their hatred on people who had nothing to do with the tragedy. I hope they understand that not everyone feels that way, and that they can forgive the people who lash out at them.

Second, the response of some Americans. I do understand how they feel, but the thought occurs to me (and was reminded to me by someone's earlier post) that if Bin Laden wants to start a fight, he just pressed exactly the right buttons to do it. Now, we've got a lot of blood-thirsty Americans out there... and possibly the beginnings of World War 3.

I do have to compliment some of the people who've posted recently. I can't even begin to recall the whole list, but some of the more notable ones include Tom Fulp, Septimus, arrogancy, EntropicOrder, DrMSM, and Dante_Kamar. It relieves me some to know that there are people out there who are holding off the trigger long enough to find the appropriate target, so to speak. The more people start thinking like this, the more likely we can get through this without hurting too many people that have nothing to do with the problem. And that's some of the best news I've heard so far.

Oh, just one more thing to say. I'll admit freely that I don't know much of anything about Afghanistan, the Taliban, Osama Bin Laden, or for that matter, anyone else involved. But, starting today, I intend to learn. I'm going to find out the who's, and the where's, and the why's. Maybe, if I do that, I can act with a little wisdom instead of just on instinct and feelings.

(If anyone knows of good ways to find out about these subjects, please email me: [email protected] I'd appreciate it.)

For now, that's it. The best to everyone. -Wyldfyre