Racism

[clichealias]

It seems to me that our society has had a hard time reaching a middle point on racism. Before, we had laws against the african american race; jim crow laws, slavery(not a law but was accepted by society). Anyway what I'm trying to say is that overtime we realised this racism was wrong, and we evolved socially and under law.

But, it seems to me there is strong reverse racism in society (not to say that blatent racism is completely solved itself, far from it). From what I notice we definately have an over emphasis on not being racist toward african americans in our school systems(I can only speak for mine however), on television, and in our laws. It seems to me, people fear to mistreat more than a white man because they could possibly come off as racist. Also there is black history month and the fact that blacks and other cultures other than whites have reduced payments and are easier accepted into colleges.

It seems to me that racism is a vicious circle.

[Brandon]

It is a complicated issue to say the least, im sure. What is strange however is that certain societies recognize race differently than others do. For instance, in Brazil im told that a person race can fluctuate daily; they are described more subjectively and skin color isnt the determining factor. Race is actually socially constructed because there really is no genetic difference. The biological characteristics of some "races" are shared by others, and rules governing the descriptions are culturally constructed as well. For example, generally the offspring of a white and black person is said to be white. We classify them based on the minority parent. Wouldnt they be equally white? It is so socially accepted that its sick. Take for example many surrveys which ask your race.

Reverse descrimination in no better because while it helps promote minorities, it still acknowledges racisim. It still is a classification method, and it is therefore just another form of what we are trying to prevent, which is ironic.

[RedSkunk]

Reverse-racism is way overblown in some circles, IMHO.

[The-Enforcer]

At 6/30/04 02:46 AM, SKUNKbrs wrote: Reverse-racism is way overblown in some circles, IMHO.

yeah it shouldn't be called reverse-racism. It's all racism. I was discriminated against when I applied to college, affirmative action is a set back for me. I made it to the school of my choice but I had a disadvantage because I was born white.

Racism is racism as long as skin color is being taken into account when decisions are made. It doesn't matter what color you are. We should stop discriminating all together.

[gem1]

We were talking about that this week. For example, women in aviation always make a big deal of being "Women in Aviation". They will never be integrated till they stop seperating themselfs. Groups like to seperate themselfs, and like to make issues because it empowers them. They are holding themself there. If women wold simply call them self another aviator, no one would question it. Same goes for all groups and races. In many areas the white is as much a minority as anyone and he can't say a word yet you have "Black magazine" siting in waiting rooms across the country, Black Tv, etc. Bill Cosby pointed this out and got slammed from the Black comunity. If a Black wants to simply be another member of society on the same playing field, everyone is ready and there are no barriers. If a black person wants to be a "Black member" of the field, then there is an issue already.

[The-Enforcer]

At 6/30/04 11:33 AM, gem1 wrote: Groups like to seperate themselfs, and like to make issues because it empowers them.

Exactly! People bring on racism themselves because they label themselves as different. I for onw don't discriminate but people in minority groups always claim to be a hyphenated american, i.e. asian-american, african-american. Can't we all just be americans?

[gem1]

At 6/30/04 11:38 AM, The_Enforcer wrote:

At 6/30/04 11:33 AM, gem1 wrote: Groups like to seperate themselfs, and like to make issues because it empowers them.

Exactly! People bring on racism themselves because they label themselves as different. I for onw don't discriminate but people in minority groups always claim to be a hyphenated american, i.e. asian-american, african-american. Can't we all just be americans?

People of all kinds of backgrounds can be so interesting when they don't have a chip on their shoulder.

[DrKilledByDeath87]

At 6/30/04 11:38 AM, The_Enforcer wrote:
Exactly! People bring on racism themselves because they label themselves as different. I for onw don't discriminate but people in minority groups always claim to be a hyphenated american, i.e. asian-american, african-american. Can't we all just be americans?

Exactly, when people try and bring themselves into your attention because they're different that's why problems are caused. If everyone started marching around the street having a "straight pride" parade half the country would be calling them homophobic. If everyone could just be happy with being equal we'd get a lot more done

[Payne-to-the-max]

There will always be racism, there is really no way to stop it because everybody has a free right of mind.

[gem1]

At 6/30/04 03:21 PM, Payne_to_the_max wrote: There will always be racism, there is really no way to stop it because everybody has a free right of mind.

True, but the bariers for many groups come within the groups themselfs.

[RedSkunk]

At 6/30/04 11:23 AM, The_Enforcer wrote: I was discriminated against when I applied to college, affirmative action is a set back for me.

Funny, it wasn't a set back for me. And it's not for 99% of whites out there attending college either.

Remember when I talked about it being overblown?

Yeah..

[Camarohusky]

The goal of college affirmative action is not totally to make it easier for minorites to get into college, and conversely harder for whites to make it in, but to level the playing field on an occuptional level. I'm sure that if you studied the issue, that which I have, Minorities make on average approximately 5-6 thousand dollars less a year than there white counterparts of equal education. In this picture affirmative action gives the minority a chance to get a better degree and therefore make about the same amount of money as a white person with a lesser degree...
But a problem with this is idea that the biggest difference in money earned a year does not show up in white v. minoirties but in men v. women. Just to give you an idea of how big the gap is, the average m,an with a bachelors (4 year degree) will make about 5K a year more than a woman with a doctorate (8-10 year degree). And I see no affirmative action involving women over men...

[AraelGenesis]

there is no need to be racist at all...

[Tael-Thi]

theres no need to be racist this is true. but i agree that trying to be not racist is getting out of hand. i got picked on as a little kid because i was white (albino to be precise) more than any black kids ever did. ive been called cracker, whitey, or white boy. more then anyone has ever been called ni**er. why isnt this viewed as racism? i belive government puts too much pressure on society to be "equal" towards minoreties. do you realize how much of a disadvantage your at to getting into college if your a white middle class male? its insane. the only way this is ever gonna stop is if everyone stops thinking about it and just starts treating everyone equally. you can only screw up the more you think about something.

and to prove my point even more im not even aloud to post the "n word"(hence the stars)

[chesspeaceface]

White people complaining about receiving racism from blacks is a joke. If you think that you know all about the struggle in store for black children who are growing up, you have no idea until you pull it off yourself.
There is more to affirmative action than just its function. It is just as much about the gesture of sacrifice for the eventual betterment of blacks in America. It is a small sacrifice in reparation for slavery. Who cares about the inconvenience if the act is benevolent?

[chesspeaceface]

And for god's sake, if black kids have overrun our universities, where are they all? It is beyond laughable that you think that white males are at an "insane disadvantage" when it comes to being accepted into a college. Give me some concrete proof of this or you've just been classified as a grossly misinformed bigot in my book.

[The-Enforcer]

At 7/1/04 03:22 AM, Camarohusky wrote: The goal of college affirmative action is not totally to make it easier for minorites to get into college, and conversely harder for whites to make it in, but to level the playing field on an occuptional level. I'm sure that if you studied the issue

I've written three papers on the issue, each of which took hours of study on the subject. Now I don't disapprove of what affirmative action stands for i.e. the leveling of the playing field/making sure non-whites aren't discriminated against, but the university of Michigan case is what brings the whole thing out of whack.

U of M used a point system. In this system you got points for being on the football team, GPA, SAT scores just to name a few. If you got a perfect score on the SAT's that was worth 12 points in U of M's point system. Thats a pretty hard feat to accomplish as I'm sure my fellow forum posters who have taken the SAT's will agree. So 12 points in the system is great, but if you're black, latin, or native-american that was worth 20 points in the point system.

My basic point is, according to University of Michigans scale, it's more important to be a minority than to do well on the SAT's. That is the reason I am against Affirmative Action. If the point system was fair then the awarded points should be something between 3 and 5 if you are a minority. That way the college recognizes minority students without insulting the intelligence of all the students.

[gem1]

When I went to college, we had a Pilot internship with United Airlines. We soon found that the most qualified were not chosen. Every female and black were chosen for the internship. The only time a white male was chosen was when there were no more females or blacks. It was not listed as a minority-hiring program but was known to be one at United. I don’t really care that I was picked over because of discrimination, I found other ways. I am not going to blame it on discrimination and sit back and say it was not my fault, I should have been hired.

But! Some of these minorities were good pilots and many were not. Many of these pilots I would not even be a passenger in their car. They were hired because they were minorities. Several of these minorities had to go through training 2 and 3 times where they would have dropped anyone else. Many of these minorities can not make Captain because they can not fly the airplane, they can not navigate, they can not learn the procedures and the Captains in the airplanes end up doing 2 jobs. If you see 2 women flying a commercial airplane you have to ask yourself, are these two good pilots who made it here by skill, or are they 2 pilots who made it here by affirmative action whom you would not let drive your car.

When you have programs which support special groups, they tend to expect it. It doesn’t matter what group it is. They begin to depend on the program and they act as if they have a right to it skill and hard work not withstanding. We have groups of people who are crying because they are not getting “what they deserve” yet are unwilling to work for it and don’t know how to work for it. This is not to say that there are not good hard working minorities but the gains in their groups have to come from them. They have to learn how to make it without help. Bill Cosby just gave a speech criticizing the blacks for many things including not pulling their own weight. He was criticized hard for the black community. When my daughter came home from school a little upset because people were calling here names, I explained to her how silly it was to worry about it and how being sensitive to it makes them do it more. I came up with my own name for her and she came up with her own name for me. My name is Toad Face. It put it in perspective for her and it is a non-issue today. This will always be this way till the minorities forget they are a minority.

[Camarohusky]

And until the white people forget that everyone else is a minority.

I come from a town with a fairly lagre hispanic population, probably around 7-15 thoussand of the city. Racism is very apparent there, altough it is subtle. The "speak english or get out" idea is very strong in my town. When you hear high school students saying that, yo uknow racism is there and pretty strong. Now there hasn't been any race killings, or race riots, but that's not all that racism is, it's mainly the small things.
Many people nowadays try to say that racism is gone, and that Affirmative Action is the only racism, they are flat out wrong. I know many smart hispanic people who I know could in most cases never ever make it as far as I could possibly go. Not because I'm smarter, but because at that height of succes, it becomes less about your ability to work and more about your ability to become part of the white good ol' boy group of upper executive work.

I cannot protect Affirmative Action when less qualified people are taken over higher qualified majorities, I don't always disagreee with that, but I cannot find any logical way to defend why. Let's just say I would be fine to give up my spot to someone who needed it more, whether they were fit or not.

[gem1]

At 7/1/04 10:46 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

When you hear high school students saying that, yo uknow racism is there and pretty strong. Now there hasn't been any race killings, or race riots, but that's not all that racism is, it's mainly the small things.

This is why imput is needed from more than one source. Your experience or my experience does not encompas the entire issue.

[RedSkunk]

At 7/1/04 07:59 AM, Tael-Thi wrote: i got picked on as a little kid because i was white (albino to be precise)... why isnt this viewed as racism?

I don't believe that "albino" is considered a race in the US.

At 7/1/04 08:54 AM, chesspeaceface wrote: And for god's sake, if black kids have overrun our universities, where are they all? It is beyond laughable that you think that white males are at an "insane disadvantage" when it comes to being accepted into a college.

Thank you.

At 7/1/04 09:39 AM, The_Enforcer wrote: My basic point is, according to University of Michigans scale, it's more important to be a minority than to do well on the SAT's.

That's not true however. UM's point system puts minority in a seperate group, with other 'extraneous' pluses - athletic ability, income, 10 or so points to the "Dean's discretion", etc. The maximum amount of points that you can get from this group of factors, is what, 40? There are at least half a dozen different factors, and they all pay fairly heavily. Many people who are qualified are already maxing out or close to maxing out this category. It'd be interesting to see how much the 20+ points for 'underepresented minority or ethnic group' really plays in.

[The-Enforcer]

At 7/1/04 02:55 PM, red_skunk wrote:

It'd be interesting to see how much the 20+ points for 'underepresented minority or ethnic group' really plays in.

They weren't seperated into a different group. the scale was out of 100 points. So being black, latin, or native american automatically gave you 1/5 better chance of getting in.

As I said before wanting to level the playing field isn't a bad idea however, putting that much emphasis on skin color is outlandish.

[gem1]

I am not out to cry about the internship I didn't get because of the afirmative action programs, I just think it all needs to stop. Afirmative action is just another barier. Forget differences and move on.

[RedSkunk]

At 7/1/04 03:08 PM, The_Enforcer wrote: They weren't seperated into a different group. the scale was out of 100 points. So being black, latin, or native american automatically gave you 1/5 better chance of getting in.

Yes it is. I thought you actually did research into this. And the scale isn't out of 100, it's out of 140 or something. Let me find a copy of the application...

[jimmydeadstar]

Yeah when you apply for a job in Britain, you have to put your ethnicity on the application form, 'to prevent racial prejudice'. If they want to prevent prejudice, why do they need to know the colour of people's skin? It seems like a really silly way of compensating for racist attitudes in the organization concerned, rather than solving anything.....

[Camarohusky]

Many people on this post keep saying that if we just stop using affirmative action that it will all end up happily in the end. My previous story about how racism was rampant and very common, even among people who said they were not racists, is proof that ending affirmative action will not help the problem. Yes it may remove the extra points for minorities, but it will not eliminate racism. Take away affirmative action and that advantage to miniroties which exist will revert aqnd reverse back into disadvantages for minorities and advantages for the majority.

If this were not the case and I could be assured that if Affirmative Action was ended that minorities would acctually be treated equally, I would be all for ending it. But I know from experience that even though many say they are not racist, minorities will not get the equal treatment that they deserve. That is why Affirmative Action is still here.

[36noir]

At 7/1/04 02:55 PM, red_skunk wrote:

At 7/1/04 07:59 AM, Tael-Thi wrote: i got picked on as a little kid because i was white (albino to be precise)... why isnt this viewed as racism?

I don't believe that "albino" is considered a race in the US.

Yeah, it's a pigment deficiency disorder. In other words, a disease, not a race.

The funny thing about AA (to me the most blatant form of reverse discrimination currently in America) is that it doesn't consider Asians a qualified minority for things such as college because "Asians are typically the smartest race", which in itself may be positive, but is stereotypical and generally racist. But what does that mean for the other groups? Whites aren't a minority, so they don't get the first pick. African-Americans are a minority and they're probably only under other extremely small minority groups such as multi-racials, but none of them test as high as Asians (the supposed "non-minority" due to intelligence) so basically we're saying, they're are a few of them AND they're the dumber ones?

AA may have been a tactical idea for integration when it was first devised, but keeping it seems redundant since people generally segregate themselves anyway.

[36noir]

At 7/1/04 10:52 PM, 36noir wrote: African-Americans are a minority and they're probably only under other extremely small minority groups such as multi-racials, but none of them test as high as Asians (the supposed "non-minority" due to intelligence) so basically we're saying, they're are a few of them AND they're the dumber ones?

there* not they're. I hate that. Sorry

[RedSkunk]

At 7/1/04 10:52 PM, 36noir wrote: The funny thing about AA (to me the most blatant form of reverse discrimination currently in America) is that it doesn't consider Asians a qualified minority for things such as college because "Asians are typically the smartest race", which in itself may be positive, but is stereotypical and generally racist

That's not why they might not qualify for AA at a college. If they don't, then it's because they aren't underrepresented. If they are under represented, then they'll qualify. End of story.

[The-SuPa-Pimp]

http://www.white-history.com/usacrime.htm

Racism dosen't exist because of color you children. There's other reasons, please do your research.