It's happened several times now that I've heard the arguments "you can't be sexist against men" or "you can't be racist against white people," with the rationale being that sexism/racism are forms of systemic oppression. According to this, a black person that hates white people is exhibiting bias, but calling it racism ignores a larger context.

Nearly every time I've gotten into a discussion with someone about this it's either been with someone that believes this dogmatically or finds this line of reasoning so repulsive that they have little to say about other than refuting it completely.

I think I understand this perspective but I don't agree. There are certainly ways in which discrimination is systemic. Some generic examples would include literacy tests for voting meant to target blacks or lack of paid maternal leave. Another great example is the Dan Ryan expressway here in Chicago, which was intentionally built to segregate and quarantine the black belt from white neighborhoods in the south side.

However, there are plenty of ways in which these things have no context at all. Being black and having store employees follow you around or catcalling are examples of this. Yes, you can argue that the prevailing black stereotype is systemically built, but that doesn't negate the individual agency of the guy that's snooping on his customers. Similarly you can argue that men catcall because they are "privileged" to do so but we're effectively revisiting the same point here. The privilege we're talking about may be systemic, but there's individual agency involved. Unlike the Dan Ryan (which actually involved a group of white people sitting down and purposefully planning to segregate the city) each individual incident boils down to one person interacting with another person, which again means that there was individual agency behind the microaggression in question.

By and large the most obvious statement here is that when trying to tackle this kind of stuff, regardless of whether or not you're arguing that the problem is systemic, you have to engage with individuals. Society is not a singular thing; it's a label that refers to a collective. Convincing someone that catcalling is rude or harassment is best done by giving someone individual attention, especially because you almost always have to listen to someone else before getting them to listen to you.

So if you want to argue that these situations are racist/sexist but boil down to personal responsibility regardless of cultural context, you must also admit that similar aggressions against whites and men are are no different.

A side note is that the system is different everywhere you go. In most places in the United States it's safer to be white, but step into a black neighborhood and it becomes much safer to blend in. Similarly, a lot of countries are antisemitic but NOT looking Jewish may not be the safest thing for you if you're in Israel. Overall some people may have more advantages than others, but what people call privilege is not absolute.

Anyway I'm pretty much done with this rant. Play devil's advocate, chime in or whatever it takes to broaden the conversation.

I lie in the middle. YES racism and sexism can happen to those in power. HOWEVER, racism and sexism toward the powerful is not even close to the same as when it comes against those without power. Me being kpt out of a Wonder Woman screeing in Austin is peanuts compared to what women deal with everyday. Yes, it sucks and yes it is bad on paper but in reality, it's like someone throwing a fit over a sliver when someone else right next to them was stabbed.

At 7/9/17 06:13 PM, tyler2513 wrote: But by those in power do you actually mean those in power, or do you mean people with white skin?

When it comes to race, to be white is to have power. That does not mean that being white guarantees power in other aspects of one's life.

I find racism and sexism of any form to be bad.

There is no reason to hate someone because of the color of their skin or what dangley bits they have down there.

At 7/10/17 04:16 PM, oobooglunk wrote: I don't have a lot to add because I agree with this sentiment entirely, but I will say that your rationale can be--and often is--taken a step too far. It's true that the concept of racism is exaggerated in some social circles, but that's no reason to dismiss the concept as a whole. I'm not saying you're doing that, but many people are--just look at the alt-right and their gravitation towards the idea of "white culture." The idea of racism as an arbitrary construct is interesting to discuss but can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

I'm aware that while most issues of race go both ways they're seldom ever balanced. Every demographic comes with advantages or disadvantages.

That said, I'm universally anti-culture and I see collective identity as a form of prejudice in and of itself. To be fair, white pride has a greater potential to be harmful when put into a wider context, but black or gay pride are no different. Effectively all of them are a circle jerk between people that share some arbitrary trait (in this case ethnicity) and for that I find the idea of pride to be insipid. I'm fine with someone being black but if being black is the most interesting thing about them (or the most interesting thing they have to say about themselves) that's pretty pathetic. I understand in many ways these kinds of things are a knee-jerk reaction to being oppressed or viewed as inferior, but tactically that doesn't seem any different to me from the classic "I know you are but what am I?" I'm more of the mindset of Judge Judy who effectively said she was basically too busy being herself to identify with a group.

At 7/10/17 01:23 PM, tyler2513 wrote: Try telling that to all the poor white trash families, I'm sure they're just so overwhelmed with power.

They are. They can walk down the streets of a small town and fear getting leered at or pulled over by police. I can guarantee you that Ben Carson has been pulled over and for more pretextual reasons than most of those poor white people have.

Also, feel free to forget EVERYTHING I SAID about race not being the only thing that dictates power.

I get that there are numerous other things that dictate power in society. Money is a big one. However, you cannot discount race just because some white people have it bad. Compare white people and black people of equal wealth and the white people will have it better. I am pretty confident in the notion that an equal, if not far higher, proportion of black people are poor than white people.

So, please stop deflecting.

At 7/10/17 08:03 PM, Kwing wrote: To be fair, white pride has a greater potential to be harmful when put into a wider context, but black or gay pride are no different. Effectively all of them are a circle jerk between people that share some arbitrary trait (in this case ethnicity) and for that I find the idea of pride to be insipid. I'm fine with someone being black but if being black is the most interesting thing about them (or the most interesting thing they have to say about themselves) that's pretty pathetic.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the point of minority groups having such pride events or such.

Society, by its very nature, places the majority as normal. As a white heterosexual man, I can walk down the street and see my life approved, celebrated, and supported on a daily basis. My life in considered normal and all others are different at best or abnormal at worse. So when minority groups engage in pride days, it is a way of them being able to go out and have a time that reflects their normal.

I do agree with your point that all groups have people who wish to see that group's success over all others, however, that sentiment in pride events is very much misplaced, and quite harmless.

At 7/11/17 10:39 PM, Sause wrote: If there's a reason you might be leered at, your group royally fucked up

edit: I shouldn't say that, there is plenty of leering going around.

Or perhaps people are just to fucking oversensitive about what another groups might think of them. It's what helped rode Trump to the white house, even though those who carried him there have most likely never experienced racism that has physically or financially harmed them, denied them jobs, or were twice as likely to be preyed upon because their race, or religion, made them more suspicious.

I am racist

At 7/12/17 02:01 PM, lapis wrote:

At 7/12/17 01:22 AM, Iamawalrus wrote: I am racist

As a walrus, you're part of an underprivileged minority (do walruses even have the right to vote?) and hence it's impossible for you to be racist.

True

Well, I a very pacifistic person but was not such. Moreover, I think this depends on the person, not about the skin color. I have written something there. You can check my reference here and say me your opinion about this. We are not enemies.

At 7/12/17 02:01 PM, lapis wrote: As a walrus, you're part of an underprivileged minority (do walruses even have the right to vote?) and hence it's impossible for you to be racist.

Replace walrus with whatever race-based nominative you want, and you just exposed the absolute fuckery of left-wing canon. Racism and sexism can be attributed to anyone if you look hard enough, and it's everyone's favorite insult when they want to derail a topic for no other reason other than not liking what someone has to say. In reality, racism and sexism aren't as important as we'd like them to be, and instead of trying to solve things systemically by making specifical allowances for certain races in employment and government benefits, we should approach it blanketly, making it clear that discrimination based upon race/sex is universally ridiculous.

Man, coming out of a borderline white trash family myself, can you imagine how stupid it was to me for the food-stamp office to deny my dirt-poor dad help because "You'll be fine; you're white!" yet grant the people behind us who were all wearing designer clothes and Jordans the fullest extent of aid? Anyone who doesn't believe "minorities" can be racist should try living in a neighborhood where that minority is the majority. This shit is just what humans do. We oppress each other to try and elevate ourselves. You'd think people forgot all about Jesus and the Pharisees, and that you can't take all this shit with you when you go.

In a lot of ways, racism is easy because you can scapegoat a group of people into quantifiable events and numbers to suit their argument. Also, most people are at least skeptical of those that looks different from the norm, and while the good majority can be assuaged of their skepticism, it only takes a few to get the wrong message and ruin it for everyone.

As much as progressives and "colorblind" society cry out that race is an arbitrary concept, (which is whole another debate) they don't really seem to have much of a response for things such as Black Entertainment Television or the UNCF, which is primarily, if not wholly for African-Americans in the first place. While there is certainly nothing wrong with having things like the UNCF and so on, you then just don't turn around and claim that race doesn't exist if you're in support of things like UNCF.

Most everyone is prejudiced in some way, especially those who believe they are not.

I fucking hate race, there are more differences between breeds of dogs than there is man.

At 7/15/17 07:12 PM, orangebomb wrote:

As much as progressives and "colorblind" society cry out that race is an arbitrary concept, (which is whole another debate) they don't really seem to have much of a response for things such as Black Entertainment Television or the UNCF, which is primarily, if not wholly for African-Americans in the first place. While there is certainly nothing wrong with having things like the UNCF and so on, you then just don't turn around and claim that race doesn't exist if you're in support of things like UNCF.

I've always hated BET and such for this reason. One great way to heal racism, segregate ourselves and celebrate our racial sameness.

In our time, racism has become mostly a label used to shut people up.
Sadly, racism do exist but, it is blown out of proportion by making everything a race issue.

Nice little Morgan Freeman interview that explain the general situation.

White privilege doesn't exist

I've always be very confused by racism to be honest with you... I know hate breeds Hate, yet that my Mother Is Irish American and My Father is Sicilian American... and I promise you One Day American will be "Just" Americans. Yet In this Day an Age there is NO Justice in America. My Father used to use the Black Word Loosely until he just never talked about it again and silence began dominating, what has always throw me off is that McDonalds sells the "whopper" and that's slang for Italian... which is what Sicilians are, yet they don't have the N word burger.. so for a while I thought I was going to be able to use the n word and it not be a problem and then black community got upset, yet they try to say they invented crack and that my grandmother liked being called a cracker... and when the tension arose at the high school I graduated from I got in a fight of these words and told the Blackguy that "HE WON" because I used the N word, yet sometimes loosing means winning and the pigmentation of the color of your skin and ethnic backgrounds is a Fight I choose not to fight anymore, yet it always erupts into and argument and I don't want to got there... and I DON"T WANT WAR EITHER know what I am saying so sometimes I feel it's my responsibility to ease racial tensions... black and white are part of fun and games growing up yet at one point you have to learn responsibly and just bite you lip to keep the problem from peaking into a fight. cause racism is so not worth it..

At 7/8/17 06:29 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Me being kpt out of a Wonder Woman screeing in Austin is peanuts compared to what women deal with everyday. Yes, it sucks and yes it is bad on paper but in reality, it's like someone throwing a fit over a sliver when someone else right next to them was stabbed.

What "Sexism" do women still face? If anything women have it better than men these days.

At 7/17/17 04:30 PM, PilotCman wrote: What "Sexism" do women still face? If anything women have it better than men these days.

Depends on the context. I'm sure there are some work environments where you'd be fine but military and entertainment are the first examples that come to mind where there's pretty terrible discrimination. Health insurance is also quite a bit higher.

At 7/25/17 02:06 AM, oobooglunk wrote: I cannot overstate how incorrect, hypocritical, and misguided your mentality is. The counterculture movement, with its US branch attaining fame in the 1960s, is a culture in and of itself.

I never said anything about counter-culture. I dislike all culture, including those that aim to be different or contrary. Even in instances where I would be an insider (eg. communities oriented around polyamory and BDSM) I find myself disliking what I see as a homogeneous circle-jerk. If your culture is a part of your so-called identity then why do you need someone else to agree with you or confirm your identity to you? Why do you need someone else's permission to be who you are? If you think you're being oppressed because you aren't allowed to go to a church or temple (or stay up late drinking coffee at Denny's) then you need to sit down and think about who you are because congregating in a specific location with specific people to practice a specific tradition is a bunch of meaningless bullshit that you DO and has nothing to do with who you ARE.

Who you are has more to do with the decisions (and especially sacrifices) that you make as an individual and the challenges that you overcome (also as an individual.) And no, overcoming the same struggle or conflict as someone else does not bind you together or give you any kind of victimhood beyond what you imagine there to be. Genocide survivors that seek comfort in each other are just taking advantage of a support system because it's easy and available. Who you are isn't where you come from or what happens to you but what you CHOOSE to do about it.

While I agree with you in more mundane instances, some cultures are more unique than others. The Yazidi people, for instance, number in the hundreds and are one of the few ethnoreligious groups remaining worldwide from pre-Biblical times. The Zoroastrians are another, with the late Freddy Mercury notably ranking among them, and their way of life is actively being suppressed by Islamist doctrine in the Middle East.

I don't care how interesting the history is; history doesn't have the power to make a person interesting.

It's a personal, living history that influences its descendants to this day.

Culture influences a person, yes, but personal identity doesn't exist until someone has developed individual biases which distinguish what they like about their own culture and what they dislike.