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Justice System

404 Views | 12 Replies

Justice System 2017-01-25 01:57:42


Even under ideal circumstances, the justice and prison system operates under the idea that people should get what they deserve, which shows adherence to an invisible concept of fairness. Why is it assumed that fairness will make the world a better place? With most standards of fairness, it will certainly take steps in the right direction, but at a certain point the idea of rights gets in its own way.

Note that the commonly accepted idea of a better place means people can get what they want. People want different things, but I would use Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs as a baseline.

Let's take a murder case as a basic example. The murder already happened; the victim isn't coming back. No "fair sentence" will undo that, so why not look forward? It doesn't even matter whether or not the suspect is guilty.
- Do we expect them to commit murder in the future? No? Don't waste money imprisoning them; let them go.
- Yes? Take the most economic plan of action.
- - Can they be productive toward others? If yes, remove something they would need to commit murder in the expected method (limbs? appendages?), or alter aggressive behavior via castration.
- - If they aren't expected to help others, imprison them in a natural environment (mountain range?) where they have a better chance of fulfillment than in solitary confinement.
- - If they have no ability to help others be productive toward themselves, execute them. Really, why keep them alive? Moreover, the blood, organs, plasma, and bone marrow can help others.

Justice System


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Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 02:03:05


The justice system isn't designed to better the world and better criminals who have done wrong, it's designed to satisfy the sadistic desires of the non-criminal citizens who enjoy seeing people tortured who they deem to be terrible due to whatever crime they committed.

The common statement of "two wrongs don't make a right" is usually what's considered the right thing to believe in, but the way the justice system works it completes contradicts this idea. I'm talking about the US btw.

Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 02:46:03


Three words: Deterrence and Revenge.


"خيبر خيبر يايهود جيش محمد سوف يعود"

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Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 04:35:02


At 1/25/17 02:10 AM, Sensationalism wrote: The justice system isn't designed to better the world and better criminals who have done wrong, it's designed to

y u do dis copycat :(

Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 13:35:19


At 1/25/17 01:11 PM, Hoodie wrote:
At 1/25/17 02:46 AM, satanbrain wrote: Three words: Deterrence and Revenge.
*Deterrence and Reform

What has Reform to do with Justice?


"خيبر خيبر يايهود جيش محمد سوف يعود"

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Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 14:25:44


At 1/25/17 01:57 AM, Kwing wrote: Even under ideal circumstances, the justice and prison system operates under the idea that people should get what they deserve, which shows adherence to an invisible concept of fairness. Why is it assumed that fairness will make the world a better place? With most standards of fairness, it will certainly take steps in the right direction, but at a certain point the idea of rights gets in its own way.

Let's be honest here, people who commit and are found guilty of crimes do deserve what they get in terms of punishment, and not only is that fair, but far better than it was in the past, let alone the alternatives. I take it that you don't like our criminal justice system because of individual rights getting in the way, but when you consider that crinimals never really take that into account, in even in select cases, make a mockery of it all, your argument comes off as flat.

- Do we expect them to commit murder in the future? No? Don't waste money imprisoning them; let them go.

AKA, The OJ Simpson defense, yeah, that rarely works out well.

- Yes? Take the most economic plan of action.

You know that they don't consider that. If they really did, they would be getting rid of capital punishment by now, or at the very least try to limit the amount of appeals that death row inmates get.

- - Can they be productive toward others? If yes, remove something they would need to commit murder in the expected method (limbs? appendages?), or alter aggressive behavior via castration.

The 8th amendment isn't going to allow that. Even at the most blurriest, no sanctioned judge is going to advocate cutting off limbs or sexual organs as punishment. Gangs on the other hand...

- - If they aren't expected to help others, imprison them in a natural environment (mountain range?) where they have a better chance of fulfillment than in solitary confinement.

Hahahaha, no. The last thing you want to do is to have a criminal murder/rape/maim again because putting them in a natural environment where they would easily escape.

- - If they have no ability to help others be productive toward themselves, execute them. Really, why keep them alive? Moreover, the blood, organs, plasma, and bone marrow can help others.

Well, we already do just that.

In all seriousness, people seem to be either complete bleeding hearts for criminals who commit heinous crimes, are naive and childish, or are simply using insane troll logic as a way to paint our criminal system in a bad light, not realizing that there are far more egregious justice systems out there and we don't go after those.


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Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 16:58:32


At 1/25/17 02:25 PM, orangebomb wrote:

In all seriousness, people seem to be either complete bleeding hearts for criminals who commit heinous crimes, are naive and childish, or are simply using insane troll logic as a way to paint our criminal system in a bad light, not realizing that there are far more egregious justice systems out there and we don't go after those.

One of the all time classics.


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Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 17:07:02


At 1/25/17 12:47 PM, Hacklyn wrote: By that reasoning everyone can now commit one murder with impunity.

Eh, maybe? I don't think people would go out and kill just because they could, and if they did, that would probably be an indicator that there are other non-murder related crimes you could expect from someone with such an opportunistic streak. On those grounds, they would most likely face some kind of consequences.

- - Can they be productive toward others? If yes, remove something they would need to commit murder in the expected method (limbs? appendages?), or alter aggressive behavior via castration.

Fair enough. There are still methods of behavior modification though.

- - If they aren't expected to help others, imprison them in a natural environment (mountain range?) where they have a better chance of fulfillment than in solitary confinement.

This would be different from vacation. If someone can't be reformed, their detainment would be indefinite, but the design of such a sentence would be to give them the best possible quality of life without giving them the opportunity to interfere with others. If this is too cushy I still consider execution a viable alternative.

Sure, but that would remove the point of the entire justice system. A pot can't call the kettle black. There's no point if justice enforces standards it doesn't intend to keep.

You're missing the point. I don't want to punish murderers because murder is wrong, because I don't think right and wrong are relevant. Instead, I think of it from the perspective that people don't want murder, so we should stop murder. If someone is too dangerous to be kept alive, they shouldn't be. That's not a punishment; it's a proactive solution.

At 1/25/17 02:25 PM, orangebomb wrote: Let's be honest here, people who commit and are found guilty of crimes do deserve what they get in terms of punishment, and not only is that fair, but far better than it was in the past, let alone the alternatives. I take it that you don't like our criminal justice system because of individual rights getting in the way, but when you consider that crinimals never really take that into account, in even in select cases, make a mockery of it all, your argument comes off as flat.

You can't empirically argue that anyone "deserves" anything, because you have to implement your idea of justice through a (subjective) moral code. What I dislike about the justice system is that it's more focused on the past than the future, which means that people care more about following rules than creating a better society (again, "better" is subjective, but I'm taking a utilitarian approach here.)

The 8th amendment isn't going to allow that. Even at the most blurriest, no sanctioned judge is going to advocate cutting off limbs or sexual organs as punishment. Gangs on the other hand...

Prevention =/= punishment

Hahahaha, no. The last thing you want to do is to have a criminal murder/rape/maim again because putting them in a natural environment where they would easily escape.

It doesn't have to have poor security. Think San Diego zoo.

- - If they have no ability to help others be productive toward themselves, execute them. Really, why keep them alive? Moreover, the blood, organs, plasma, and bone marrow can help others.
Well, we already do just that.

Not really. Most of the time we waste the potential resources of executed prisoners.

In all seriousness, people seem to be either complete bleeding hearts for criminals who commit heinous crimes, are naive and childish, or are simply using insane troll logic as a way to paint our criminal system in a bad light, not realizing that there are far more egregious justice systems out there and we don't go after those.

I'm not even directing my criticisms at any specific justice system, I'm simply suggesting another approach. Instead of asking who's responsible for a crime and what they deserve, the question is what's best for society as a whole. That means the criminal's well-being is included but in practice overshadowed by the well-being of everyone else.


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Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 21:06:22


At 1/25/17 01:57 AM, Kwing wrote: Even under ideal circumstances, the justice and prison system operates under the idea that people should get what they deserve, which shows adherence to an invisible concept of fairness. Why is it assumed that fairness will make the world a better place? With most standards of fairness, it will certainly take steps in the right direction, but at a certain point the idea of rights gets in its own way.

Note that the commonly accepted idea of a better place means people can get what they want. People want different things, but I would use Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs as a baseline.

Let's take a murder case as a basic example. The murder already happened; the victim isn't coming back. No "fair sentence" will undo that, so why not look forward? It doesn't even matter whether or not the suspect is guilty.
- Do we expect them to commit murder in the future? No? Don't waste money imprisoning them; let them go.
- Yes? Take the most economic plan of action.
- - Can they be productive toward others? If yes, remove something they would need to commit murder in the expected method (limbs? appendages?), or alter aggressive behavior via castration.
- - If they aren't expected to help others, imprison them in a natural environment (mountain range?) where they have a better chance of fulfillment than in solitary confinement.
- - If they have no ability to help others be productive toward themselves, execute them. Really, why keep them alive? Moreover, the blood, organs, plasma, and bone marrow can help others.

I'm gonna keep this sweet and short: FUCK THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. They're too busy putting people away for crimes like having marijuana on them and people who steal and pouring money into these prisons to lock up petty criminals than putting money towards things that are more important in this shit country with it's shit economy.
Violent criminals (murders, rapists, etc) all deserve the death penalty, and if the death penalty isn't an option, life in prison. They should get the most minimal of basic human treatment as possible, it will save us tons of money. Everyone else can be rehabilitated, hopefully. And if they can't, find other alternatives for them than keeping them locked up in the facilities that harbor the people who deserve to be there.


ハートブレイクの戦士

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Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 22:59:09


This is why we can't have idiots in the system or below it.

Cutting someone's appendage off is not the way to go for murder.
Maybe pedophilia, but not murder.
It's called principalities son, it's how the world works.

Response to Justice System 2017-01-25 23:11:22


Honestly when it comes to BBS bans well yeah some are unfair.

Response to Justice System 2017-01-26 08:02:42


At 1/25/17 02:10 AM, Sensationalism wrote: While I kind of like the idea of castrating rapists instead of giving them a slap on the wrist, I'm not so sure taking body parts is a good idea.

Castrating rapists has a history of not actually doing anything. I would say if we're going for dismemberment, taking off the hands and genitals would go a long way toward preventing future rapes. Although I'm not sure how useful a handless rapist is going to be if you expect to have him work anywhere.


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Response to Justice System 2017-01-26 11:24:55


At 1/26/17 05:59 AM, Hacklyn wrote: Same as paid vacation anyway. Imprisonment is to take away the freedom they misused. But you still can't be imprisoned at a resort or at home.

The idea of punishing someone implies right and wrong, which is not something I'm concerned with. Imprisonment is to keep people separated from society if their integration poses a risk to others. By the time you're even considering the consequences that a criminal 'deserves' you're already more preoccupied with the crime than looking forward toward what is beneficial for everyone.

Prevention =/= punishment
That isn't always true, like in this case.

Punishment implies prevention, but prevention can be done without punishment. Though to be honest I don't feel like turning this into an argument about propositional logic.

Prisoners do have rights. The reason is because there are all kinds of crimes and in the end prisoners are supposed to reintegrate into society.

Right, so we can focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment. If that isn't possible, it's a waste of resources to keep them alive. Moreover, corpses aren't prisoners, but they can still be scrapped for parts - parts that our health care system needs very badly.

At 1/26/17 08:02 AM, EDM364 wrote: Castrating rapists has a history of not actually doing anything. I would say if we're going for dismemberment, taking off the hands and genitals would go a long way toward preventing future rapes. Although I'm not sure how useful a handless rapist is going to be if you expect to have him work anywhere.

A decent point, but there are definitely opportunities for people without hands. So long as you have a voice you could go into vocal performance, comedy, public speaking, consulting, or marketing. There's also a decent amount you can do with your feet, like ashiatsu. The only real risk is job discrimination if there becomes a trend between missing limbs and criminality. However, this is not much different from current problems where an 18 year old can have sex with their 17 year old partner and be labeled as a sex offender for life if one of the parents finds out. Or, in the case where someone actually has committed a sex crime, there's very little opportunity for reintegration into society if said person actually wants to reform themselves. But again, that's more a social problem than a legal one.


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