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So those 4 instances merit exponentially raising the danger to your family?

Sorry man, hundreds of people die every day from car crashes, but you drive everywhere all the time.

You're much safer without a gun, there's no accidental shooting a family member, you're kids don't have anything to commit suicide with in the blink of an eye, and NO knife suicides are not nearly as dangerous as gunshot wounds...

It's about statistics, and about human error. You're much more likely to kill a family member or someone innocent than to protect yourself. You can have a gun, but it's gotta have a lock, because all the parents who've shot a family member wish they did, and just because you think you're good enough to have a gun doesn't mean anything.

Imagine if they had guns, huh?

How do you know they didn't have guns? How do you know they weren't living in the ghetto and came downstairs screaming to get the fuck out?

There are too many variables to base an arguement upon

1. No there is no danger to my family because I am responsible, and part of responsibility comes with KNOWING and IDENTFYING what is beyond the sights and muzzle of my gun.

2. Yes, people die in car accidents, but it happens ALOT less when people are responsible. I.e. not DUI's, seatbelts, RESPONSIBLE driving.

3. Knive suicides are as dangerous? You need to look at what happens to someone who is shot once compared with someone that shoots themself. I know of at least one case off the top of my head. My Grandmother shot herself with a .45 ACP, point blank. NO damage, minimal bleeding.

4. Suicide in the blink of an eye?

A. Driving your car into or off of just about anything.
B. Drinking dangerous chemicals.
C. Death by patrol officer.
D. Jumping off of something high.
E. Running into traffic.
F. Blowing yourself up.
G. Lighting yourself on fire.
H. Electricution.
I. Shall I keep going?

5. If they would have had guns? I read a story about a 76 year old woman who stopped a rape with a .38. Another one where another elderly woman shot a man in the balls after he tried to rape her.

Suicide as a result of gunshot wound...

As numerous studies have shown, guns are used in roughly two out of every three suicide attempts by teenagers, and handguns are used in 70% of these.

Electrocution doesn't factor in here duders, that's just a straw man, and doesn't address the fact of the matter.

While only 20% of suicide attempts by teenagers by drug overdose are fatal, 90% of attempts with a gun are fatal.3

Hrm, that's pretty damning for your arguement isn't it?

roughly 43% of all households with children in them have guns5 and almost 30% of these do not keep their guns locked in a secure location where they cannot be accessed by children and teenagers.6

Yep, so is that.

Sources:

1. CDC National Center for Injury Prevention and Control Fact Sheet. "Suicide in the United States"; and, Wintemute, GJ, Teret, SP, et al. "The Choice of Weapons in Firearm Suicides." American Journal of Public Health. Vol. 78, No. 7. 1988. PP. 824-826.
2. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. National Center for Health Statistics.
3. Myron Boor. "Methods of Suicide and Implications for Suicide Prevention." Journal of Clinical Psychology. Vol. 37. January 1981. PP. 70-75.
4. Kellerman, AL, Rivera, FP, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." New England Journal of Medicine. Vol. 314, No. 24. 1986. PP. 1557-1560.
5. Lee, RK, Sacks, JJ. "Latchkey Children and Guns at Home." Journal of the American Medical Association. November 7, 1990. Volume 264, No. 17. P. 2210.
6. Peter Hart Research Associates. July 1999.
7. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "Rates of Homicide, Suicide and Firearm-Related Death Among Children - 26 Industrialized Countries." Morbidity Mortality Weekly Report. February 7, 1997. Vol. 46, No. 5. PP. 101-105.

How is electricution a straw man. I was displaying quick forms of suicide. The main argument here is about the AWB and responsiblity, handguns are not covered by the AWB except for mags. As to an earlier poster. Ingrams are FULL AUTO! Look at it this way, I am not condoning general firearms use I have siad before that they are not for everyone. I use locks. If I had kids, I would get ALOT better locks. I also have a save. I store my ammo seperate. If you do not use them responsibly don't use them. Why should I have to suffer because so kid snuck out, came home late and got shot? Those are also among teens who are ignorant anyway. Maybe if PARENTING where better people could stop blaiming an inanimate object. Guns kill people? When was the last time you saw a AR-15 walking down Main st? Look at it another way responsiblity carries over to ALL things. It's like the people who support abortion. They argue, "Well it's a womans right to have the baby!" I say it is also her right to keep her ****ing legs closed. Also one of your sources goes against the AWB. They did a two year study, and came up with the some odd 200,000 guns laws HAD NO EFFECT ON CERTAIN VIOLENT CRIME. I.e. the AWB.

At 7/20/04 01:28 AM, PruneTracy wrote: How do you know they didn't have guns? How do you know they weren't living in the ghetto and came downstairs screaming to get the fuck out?

What the hell are you talking about? I was talking about the two muggers who stabbed the guy. If they had a damn gun, they would of waved it in his face, or shot him.

At 7/20/04 01:47 AM, Spookshow wrote: Also one of your sources goes against the AWB.

Which one?

They did a two year study, and came up with the some odd 200,000 guns laws HAD NO EFFECT ON CERTAIN VIOLENT CRIME. I.e. the AWB.

Ok, see this is not really a citation, it's rediculous. "Violent crime never involves guns? Is that the arguement..."

Exellent, then you don't need a gun to protect yourself! Nope, that's not it either.

I like the abortion allegory and that's why I know you'll agree with em on this issue Spook.

Ya see, I'm against 3rd trimester abortions, because it's not less than sticking a needle into the head of a creature, that while not alive yet, has the chance of living if born rigth at that moment.

However, I don't believe that the government has contol over a collection of cells that within 5 or 6 months could ruin a persons life.

In this same respect, I will defend any good American's right to a gun, maybe even a few, but realize that without limits these guns can do much more bad than good.

Example, gun shows are great palces for law abiding citizens to purchase guns, but they're also the leading place for criminals to get guns, even convicted felons.

There needs to be freedom, but when that freedom entails guns going to criminals, and killing women, children and police officers, I can't possibly help but fight to prevent the wrong things from happening. In the same respect I can't help but figth against a fetus that could live without it's mother being aborted so late in a pregnancy.

It's a matter of the limit that any freedom comes with, it's finding a balance without resorting to religion that is the key.

Free speech? Can't yell fuck the police at a policemans ball without getting in some trouble, and in the same light we must put laws in place to keep America safe, without forfeiting our right to bear arms.

CDC, look at the part where it said they reported that the 200,000 etc...

It doesn't help your case man, guns are killing Americans, and that's gotta stop.

You can keep your guns, but the criminals can't.

CDC: Gun law-violence link unclear

Review of laws finds no proof they cut deaths, officials report

ASSOCIATED PRESS

ATLANTA, Oct. 2 — A sweeping federal review of the nation’s gun control laws — including mandatory waiting periods and bans on certain weapons — found no proof they reduce firearm violence.

Why, it's as though criminals don't get backround checks at all!!!! One might even assume they GO TO GUNSHOWS!!! Where they don't get background checks... just big guns for hurting more good people.

Time will tell with what is now "Unclear" link between background checks, but issues like gunshows and faulty locks need adressed before you or I suffer personally from them.

The FBI is responsible for the indepthness of BG checks.

faulty locks? That is a common misconception:

There was a kid who shot up a school, I think. He used power tools to get into his fathers safe. The report said they (the locks) were defective... I fail to see how so.

46 DAYS LEFT!!!

At 7/20/04 01:34 AM, PruneTracy wrote: Suicide as a result of gunshot wound...


roughly 43% of all households with children in them have guns5 and almost 30% of these do not keep their guns locked in a secure location where they cannot be accessed by children and teenagers.6

So You are trying to say that we should all lose our guns because 13% of the parents are irresponsible? If it is the parents job to keep guns locked up, then its their fault that child died. Not ours.

Besides you could slap all the gun bans you wanted, just like Hitler did before he started the holocaust. But bareley anyone is going to give up their guns in america's "boonie" areas. Gangs wont. Only the most deticated people will. Heck, most people dont even redgister their weapons. Why would they just give them up?

I remember reading somewhere about how there is like 500,000 guns in Cananda and only 140,000 are registered... Anyone find that article?

Assault weapons are an attachment to the Second Amendment and the stated principle in our Declaration of Independence that it should be the ability of the populace to be capable of overthrowing any government that dares oppress it. To ban assault weaponry would be to to chip away at this essential right given to the American populace.
I do support a extremely limited importation of assault weaponry into the United States, but the weapons should not be banned due to the fact that the price is out of reach to the average American consumer. Also, to ban Assault weapons would only serve as a beginning of a step-by=step banning of most if not all firearms that possess anything resembling firepower. It is best not to go down that road. One cites murders and police fatalities. Both rates with few exceptional years have been in a steady decline since the 1960's. Banning assault weaponry would do nothing to hasten this decline, but instead to only serve as a chipping away of American liberties.

A democracy without a armed populace is like a flock of sheep expressing their rights to a hungry wolf.

HR 2038 PEOPLE!!! SCARY STUFF!!! I can give details if needed.

Here are some "real" facts as reported by the US National Safety Council (NSC) for 2001 death's:

The NSC Report shows that in 2001:

There were 101,537 Accidental Deaths in the US
47,288 were Traffic Related deaths
15,019 were from falls (stairs, ladders etc)
3,281 were drowning
802 were from accidental firearm discharge
456 were accidental suffocation while in bed!

Suicides-of course firearms are going to be high on the list. Let's face it, someone who is depressed or sick enough to take their own life will try and do it as easily as they think they can.
Still, there were:
16, 869 suicides 2001 from firearms use. (55%)
11,389 suicides from either self poisoning or hanging (37%)

Yes, your odds that if you are going to kill your self, that you choose a firearm are high. No one is arguing otherwise. They are not 70%. Just over half, which is still to many. Not arguing that 55% is ok. More needs to be done to help these people who feel their only hope is to kill themselves. Taking away everyone elses right to own a gun because of this is not the way to do it though.

Your odds of ACCIDENTAL death as of 2001 are:
1 in 1,781 in a car accident
1 in 18,982 accidentally falling
1 in 355,479 accidentally being shot with a firearm

Perhaps we are not as irresponsible as you might think. Yes there are some that do not think before the act and are dangerous with their firearms. The majority of us are responsible and safe. Those that do, teach and preach responsible gun ownership/use. We do not accept the irresponsible people either.

8 weeks left

Okay so we all agree people will use a hand gun to kill themselves. If your that messed up you want to kill yourself by all means go ahead....I mean as long as you don’t hurt anyone else.

I do agree that before you are allowed to buy any kind of firearm you should have to take a class or something similar to "drivers education". Then when you pass your test and can handle your weapon you can get a license and can own a gun.

Banning assault weapons (or rilfes with 30rd mags) is one of the worst things you can do. Assault weapons count for less than 1% of violent crimes.

Come one where do people get this information about people shooting their kids. And i know this has happened but you make it sound like every time someone pulls out their gun for home defense they blow away their family instead of protecting them. That’s BS.

If you wanna lower crime don’t look at guns.
Look at people and education.
One of the biggest causes of crimes is our poorly created laws regaurding drug use.
You spend more time in jail for having a bag of weed than you do from committing a rape.

Until these laws change and are geared towards locking up criminals instead of people minding their business. I will own and posses as many fire arms as I want because it is my right to be able to defend myself. I promise you this......I will never accidentally fire my gun at a family member or friend. If i fire my weapon in the house its cause your not supposed to be in it.

The Nazi's disarmed the population and then murdered mass people that were unarmed. As much as you people talk about not liking bush and our government. It would seem that you wouldn’t want them to take your guns away....After that you can not stop the government from killing off say Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asians, Mexicans, or who or what ever.

The government doesn’t listen to us NOW, how much do you think they will listen after they disarm us????????

I hate Kerry and Bush they are both tools. There is no choice they both suck. It’s either the puppet on the left or the puppet on the right. How about some day we actually take a real vote for president, Instead of this stupid party crap.

---------Ignorance is Fueled by Ignorance---------

At 7/20/04 01:01 AM, uncle_skunk wrote:

At 7/20/04 12:59 AM, Spookshow wrote: Hate to tell you but in the past two months there has been 4 armed (knife or gun) home invasions resulting in murders.

What... In the world?

theres 500,000 armed robberys a year in the USA alone

OK guys, do you know how many armed robberies Iceland has had in it's entire history?

I do, it's ONE.... total, just one, there are not gun shows, people CAN have guns and DO hunt... what does that mean to you guys? Maybe we have so many poor people that there is a NEED for 500,000 robberies a year.

Hrm, I think Bush put it best. "We have no need for assualt weapons in our time."

"theres 500,000 armed robberys a year in the USA alone"

There are 300,000,000 Americans.

that means, for every 6,000 americans, there is a robbery every year. Thats quite alot.

I wouldn't dwell on such a large ratio.

It's an alarming ratio, but the problem isn't the guns. There are other countries with looser gun laws than the United States and a much smaller ratio of armed robbery, gun related homocides, etc. The problem isn't gun control, it's something else that's deeply rooted into our society. I don't know if anyone can say what it is for sure, but I'll bet that it's a good number of factors. Either way, all I know is that if we all just play it cool like Fonzie, nobody's going to get hurt.

ok, lets assume that every robbery is done by 5 people. and there is 1 robbery for every 6000 people in the US. ok, so if an average robbery has 5 people in it, that means that for every 1200 people, one of them will commit a robbery any given year. It's pretty frightening that even a small fraction of americans (according to my rough calculations about .1%), would feel the need to rob something or somebody. There is obviously something wrong with our system.

No it means for every 6,000 people one of them will commit an act of theft.

"Either way, all I know is that if we all just play it cool like Fonzie, nobody's going to get hurt."

HHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYY

yeah, if only everybody played it cool like fronzie, we'd all be ok

Hey, it worked it Pulp Fiction.