Am I the only one.

[White-Gin]

As I started to post drawings of my work I occasionally return back once in awhile to look at them (don't ask why). So, the thing that caught my eye is the number of views I get on each drawing.
By the looks of it, every time I open my drawing page it counts as a new view and it keeps on doing that.
So, in other words, all the 80 views I have/had on one are my own, whilst the others are not.
I've tested it by not opening two of my works for a while, and vice versa with another two. And that looks like the case.
This does rise some questions for me. Is it intentionally? Or is it a bug?
Was it made so that less popular/newcomer artists can get a chance to get some kind of audience?Like when another person opens the page and whalla! 200 views, he is thinking: "Hmmm, this artist is good." Why not watch him?

To me this is more of an issue, since:
A)I DON'T know how many people actually look at my art, hence I can't judge if im improving or not from the amount of unique views.
B)If im right and every time I open my drawing I get a new view in the counter, what can prevent some individuals from abusing this? Be it by manually "grinding" views on one drawing, or using a bot?
C)As a continuation of A), the same goes for self voting, which is strangely unique to each account. Even though you do have a 0 to 5 system, it's not enough, not when the commentators have an option of giving 0 to 0.5 to 4.5 to 5 stars for your work.
If the overall rating system had this amount, artists can actually fairly and more accurately self-rate their work.

Anyways, these are the few nuances I have, and I just need some clarification if im right or wrong.

[LegolaSS]

At 4/20/16 10:04 AM, White-Gin wrote: A)I DON'T know how many people actually look at my art, hence I can't judge if im improving or not from the amount of unique views.
B)If im right and every time I open my drawing I get a new view in the counter, what can prevent some individuals from abusing this? Be it by manually "grinding" views on one drawing, or using a bot?
C)As a continuation of A), the same goes for self voting, which is strangely unique to each account. Even though you do have a 0 to 5 system, it's not enough, not when the commentators have an option of giving 0 to 0.5 to 4.5 to 5 stars for your work.
If the overall rating system had this amount, artists can actually fairly and more accurately self-rate their work.

Anyways, these are the few nuances I have, and I just need some clarification if im right or wrong.

Hi there, lets talk about this.

1. Do you need to know the numbers? if you are only getting a handful of people surely that's telling you that hardly anyone is looking at your stuff to begin with... and the amount of views can not help you gauge if you are improving.

2. The counter is raised every time the page is opened. what would be the point in "grinding" page views as it really offers no befit.

3. The star review system has 11 options from 0 stars up to 5 stars while the side bar has 6 (0 to 5) and again if you were to create multiple accounts to increase your art's score it again has no value other to create a false ego for yourself.

as for you wanting more options than 6 compared to the 11 for reviewers, why?. you could always scale it up to 100 but still get a similar answer... lets say you got 100 voting options. and you get 83.33%.... that's the same as a score of 4.0. having a larger range offers nothing more.

The score and view count is not an good way of comparing art.

[White-Gin]

Hi there, lets talk about this.

1. Do you need to know the numbers? if you are only getting a handful of people surely that's telling you that hardly anyone is looking at your stuff to begin with... and the amount of views can not help you gauge if you are improving.

2. The counter is raised every time the page is opened. what would be the point in "grinding" page views as it really offers no befit.

3. The star review system has 11 options from 0 stars up to 5 stars while the side bar has 6 (0 to 5) and again if you were to create multiple accounts to increase your art's score it again has no value other to create a false ego for yourself.

as for you wanting more options than 6 compared to the 11 for reviewers, why?. you could always scale it up to 100 but still get a similar answer... lets say you got 100 voting options. and you get 83.33%.... that's the same as a score of 4.0. having a larger range offers nothing more.

The score and view count is not an good way of comparing art.

How can NOT knowing how many people have seen your work make you better at making art better?
Yes, the numbers do show how good you are. The more people see your work, the better it is. It's a simple notion.
People wont click on a drawing's "icon" to see something they don't like.

I personally am not an attention seeker, and don't look for popularity that much, quite the contrary. But, ironically, I want people to see my art, art that is appealing or interesting, or original.
But how can I be sure that I am progressing if all the views I get can be modified in such an easy way?
If I have 10 followers that regularly see my work, they just need to click my work five times and bam! 50 views.
And now im sitting here, questioning if these 50 views are from 50 different people or just a few handful that regularly open my drawings?
I think that's kinda misleading for an artist in knowing if he is improving or not. As far as I know false-recognition never helped anyone, only the very desperate.

Another nuance is that I personally on occasion open the drawings and look at them (because I like to watch what I drew and it's easier for me to open it through a browser then search it on my disc). This as said raises the views.

If the views offer no benefit, then what is the point in them anyway? As I said, knowing how many different/unique people actually
have seen your work, means that your art is progressing(or not), and is opening up to a more bigger crowd(or specific - narrow one).
If your art is unique only to you and only a handful appreciate it, you will know it by the amount of views and followers.

But then comes the question of how can you get them?
If you "grind" and/or multi-vote from different accounts you can get yourself a nice amount of views and votes for a false kickstart.
For example I can create 10 different accounts and make a bot to keep on opening my drawings, in the end get myself around 2 000 views +/- on each drawing and a score of 4.40 +/-. And this is so it won't get enough attention from the moderators and admins.
But people wont care that much or give any attention that the ratings are like that (that's why we made different ratings and view counts).
A simple viewer will just say: "Hey, this guy's(gal's) drawings are awesome and he has a decent rating, why not follow him?"
And then it's just like a snowball, first one, then another and so on.

The only two things that should be considered is the time of registration and the quality of drawings.
The first one is that if you registered on 10 of May for example and then started this scheme a week later, it will rise suspicion on the quick rise in views and ratings. So, you'll have to wait a month or so to counter this.
The second one is trickier, but, you can adjust the scheme to the quality of your work.

Then there is this argument: "If your art is good then you will get the followers without using this scheme." True.
But it's a double-edge one. With the rise of internet art freelancing and artists by the day, posting their work, the competition grows, and simply put, those who are actually good get mixed in the crowd of those that are not so.
And what does that mean? Time. The most precious thing any artist has is time. Now, newcomers simply have to put twice as more time into work to make a decent quantity and quality to get enough attention so that their skills would be viable on the market.
This means having a dilemma: spend more time on drawing to achieve the needed goal but cut on some real-life stuff (sports, school, job etc.) or vice-versa. This of course doesn't affect those who post drawings "just for fun".

Then we go back to the issue at hand.
First of all I need to say that I don't like getting unneeded views or ratings. If my drawings have 8 views I deal with it and get better, but if because I can't see my own drawings to NOT abuse the counter and get a fair amount of views then it hinders my ability to fluidly adjust myself (eg. by putting myself at the position of the viewer).
The voting too. The difference between a 6 and 11 star voting is huge.
For all my drawings I only voted once on my very first one and gave it a fair 4. Yet later I got 4 more votes which were presumably a 5's and a 4's, now it's stuck to a 4.40 rating. But, to be honest, I would rate my drawing for a 4.5, which wasn't/isn't viable. Which comes to this...

An 11 star rating is actually more useful for beginners rather then veterans. In particular for the 3 and 4 ratings moment.
For some reason there is not a much bigger dilemma then putting a 3 or 4 on a work, when there is no middle option. Just imagine, getting a 3 instead of a 4 on your first drawing when you tried so hard. Of course some people can handle this and go on, but some can't.
Plus, it's wouldn't be much of an issue if people actually voted often. But with the rarity of votes, it's harder to make fair judgement on a work even more.
And it's not like it's hard or something to make a vote, just click an icon and that's it. Hell, it's longer to post a comment with explanation on why you voted 4.5 instead of 5. But for some reason we don't do even that simple action (I am guilty of it too).

Also, what does a drawing view and score has to do with comparing art? I mean, unless you are doing the same theme but under different styles or versions, then yes, it's VERY important. But the scoring and views are a guidance for you personally on how you perform through different drawings. It never was about comparing, since tastes differ, but it's always about how good you were and are now.

In the end the main reason why I put this up is that, some of those who can abuse this system can achieve much more in a much shorter time (even if their work is actually good), unlike those who gather their viewers/followers through hard work and patience throughout the years (and also pushing back the newcomers).
And this is a big deal for me. Because I don't like to play unfair, even if it's not that big of an issue (rather result) as I have now, but I don't like when others do it too.

Ironically, I am aiming for a professional personal digital artist and later - animator, and I need to get views and ratings, in other words popularity, when I don't like it (seriously, I don't like attention). And the biggest irony(and to an extent insanity) is that I am aiming to get it till the end of this year.
And I underlined "it" because I refer to a specific type of followers, due to the nature my work will be. And if I will get to it by "abusing"(even if it's a tiny bit in the view counter) I somehow have no sense of achievement for the work I did, as if I didn't do anything.

Anyways, I guess I clarified as much as I can without over explaining too much.

[Luwano]

If you really think the views represent if you actually improve, you could as well rely on the way the numbers change from picture to picture. For example, your first picture had 30 views in a week (with the flawed viewcount) and your latest piece has 200 views (with the same flawed viewcount), you can tell the interest was higher, unless you yourself clicked your art 3 times more than usual. In that case, blame yourself.

I can assure you though, that views mainly depend on the thumbnail unless you have many followers. This (NSFW looking) art flood generated the most views for almost every participant:

http://www.newgrounds.com/art/tag/ftpf15

Followers, proper reviews (not just the score) and feedback here in the forum are much better indicators wether your art is considered better by your peers or not than views and votes.

[Cairos]

I have to agree with White-Gin. Not clicking on a thumbnail because it isn't "eye-catching" isn't a good way to determine an image or artist's value.

The Art Portal is too dominant on the view count. While folks can rate an image it literally is just there to be a non-verbal way to provide input for the artist.

The 1st page in the Popular tab is what everyone is gunning for and by default it's organized by how many views each image has accumulated within the week. The quality of images that can be found there can be very questionable. Hell, besides the new stuff, all the thumbnails that are on display in the Art Portal page are based on view count.

The restrictive nature of the thumbnail system is creating a click-bait culture in the Art Portal. Everyone's fishing for views to get a good spot. It's unhealthy.

[SourCherryJack]

Okay I'm gonna start with the most important part of this first: The number of views you have and the rating does not accurately reflect how good your art is. If you really care about views and ratings draw licensed characters, give them huge tits and asses and make said tits and asses the thumbnail; you will get a ton of views that way even if the art is mediocre. Moving on.

At 4/20/16 03:01 PM, White-Gin wrote:

But then comes the question of how can you get them?...

You are right in the psychology of more followers and 'likes' you get on your work the more other people are inclined to pay attention to you on social media, but that doesn't really apply to Newgrounds. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, yeah its huge there, but Newgrounds is a smaller community where it really is more on the quality of your work over what (largely) arbitrary numerical value has been assigned to your work by the community.
Making bots to upvote and view your work and boost your (largely meaningless) score is just sad and will only serve to boost your ego, people can see through that pretty easily too if they pay any attention at all.

This means having a dilemma: spend more time on drawing to achieve the needed goal but cut on some real-life stuff (sports, school, job etc.) or vice-versa. This of course doesn't affect those who post drawings "just for fun".

Welcome to the world of art as a job. Its hard work and if you want to do it the competition is enormous. You're going to have to make a lot of sacrifices and put a lot of time and effort into building a portfolio. That's how it works.

Ironically, I am aiming for a professional personal digital artist and later - animator, and I need to get views and ratings, in other words popularity...

What you NEED is better art, a strong portfolio, proof that you have the skills necessary to tackle challenging commissions creatively. Not a bunch of names on a "follows you" list. The popularity is important but a definite second to your actual skills.

I'm done with the specific responses but please consider the following:
If you want to get better at art, knowing how many people are viewing it isn't going to help you. Improving your art skills, doing studies, putting the time in regardless of how many views you are getting will make you better. A side effect of the this improvement will be people seeing your improved art and thinking "hey this guy makes good art maybe I'll check him out and follow him" They don't say "oh hey this guy has a lot of views and a highscore better follow him" its just not how this type of site really works.
As for the 11 and 6 numerical system of voting I really don't see why that matters, but if you really think its an issue where delicate new artists are getting their hearts broken over a 3.00 versus a 3.50 I don't know what to to tell you, dude, sucks for them I guess?
Those who abuse the system grossly usually end up unscouted or reprimanded, its happened before and where a user's art was in the greatest of all time section, but all the reviews called them out on it and I think they're currently unscouted or at least not able to show up on featured pages.
If you want to build an audience here, engage with the community; make an art thread, comment on other people's art threads, drop reviews in the art portal, take the second it takes to actually give somebody a vote on their submission (its so easy).

[Luwano]

At 4/20/16 04:37 PM, Cairos wrote: I have to agree with White-Gin. Not clicking on a thumbnail because it isn't "eye-catching" isn't a good way to determine an image or artist's value.

The Art Portal is too dominant on the view count. While folks can rate an image it literally is just there to be a non-verbal way to provide input for the artist.

The 1st page in the Popular tab is what everyone is gunning for and by default it's organized by how many views each image has accumulated within the week. The quality of images that can be found there can be very questionable. Hell, besides the new stuff, all the thumbnails that are on display in the Art Portal page are based on view count.

The restrictive nature of the thumbnail system is creating a click-bait culture in the Art Portal. Everyone's fishing for views to get a good spot. It's unhealthy.

Yes it is unhealthy, all we are saying is: That's the way it currently is. If a newcomer takes views too important, he will be frustrated. It's better for them (and ultimately for everyone) to focus on more important stuff.

Btw, I personally will always browse the portal based on interesting thumbnails. The only other way would be to click each and every piece. And I stopped doing that some years ago.

As for the most popular section etc. I thought there was some kind of algorithm based on views AND score (not like that would make a huge difference). In these sections, I am pretty sure "faking" views makes a much smaller impact there than on the rest of the art portal.

[Fifty-50]

I don't think views and high ratings correlate to an improvement in one's skill as artist. Why would the amount of viewers be a better indicator than the input of your peers? I would argue that the majority of the audience in the art portal are not artists, I always assumed it was mostly composed of horny prepubescent boys hence the popularity of art that put tits and ass on them. I also don't understand how views and popularity would help you with securing a career as a substitute for actual skill.

[Cairos]

@Luwano : You're right. It is best for him to focus on developing on his skill right now rather than worrying about exposure.

I honestly need to stop using threads like this as a base to express my disliking of the Art Portal...

[SourCherryJack]

At 4/20/16 05:02 PM, Luwano wrote:

At 4/20/16 04:37 PM, Cairos wrote:

Yes it is unhealthy, all we are saying is: That's the way it currently is. If a newcomer takes views too important, he will be frustrated. It's better for them (and ultimately for everyone) to focus on more important stuff.

Its unhealthy for sure and promotes pandering and clickbait, but what other options would there be? Isn't kind of intrinsic to an online gallery of the art portal's size to have to use thumbnails? I mean tumblr sort of has a work around by having much larger and variable thumbnails, but that's a massive formatting difference and can still have some of the same problems of click baiting, but then I guess tumblr's tagging system gets around it... anyway I digress.
Maybe putting a sort of "ones to watch" section would be neat to promote new and underrated artists, but moderating that would probably be difficult. I know Tom used to do that on the front page and in newsposts, follow Fridays or something like that if I'm remembering correctly.

[White-Gin]

To JackDCurleo.
Im going to drop the fact you ignored almost half of what I said.

First one is wrong in many ways.
Just like in the first post. If views mean nothing, then why have them in the first place?
If ratings and views are inaccurate, why do they exist?
If they are present, then they DO effect something.
On the internet and such art portals there is one thing you should know. This is not a museum of fine art. It's not a shop. It's not even a bazaar. You can't come here and say that this is good and this is not, be it YOUR product or not. And out of the million pieces people must click right on your work and see it. If they did, that means there is/was something in it that caught their attention.
And then they have a choice of three (on Newgrounds for that matter), that is to vote, comment and put a rating with the comment.
Three ways. And only one of them is easy and fast - the rating out-of-6.
As I said earlier people are not inclined to stay for too long on the internet (because there are tons of other drawings they have to see), and they most of the time (around 85%) click-on-by, they just open an art and then close it almost instantly after finishing looking it over.
And go on. That's it. They don't vote, they don't comment etc. because they don't have the time. And the thing is the victims of such attitude are sometimes (even often then usual) artist with great potential and great art. In the end after a dozens of works they only get less then half of the deserved attention, were as there are those who as you said draw mediocre art and get a lot of views (this is another completely different topic of discussion), the problem is, there is a dime-a-dozen of these mainstream artists. While those who aren't, aren't getting what they deserve.
As a continuation of this, drawing mediocre art goes against my principals. And not because I can't, or don't want to, but because it's not the main goal. And it's not something I would consider a prideful victory through using such methods, on the contrary I consider gaining any benefits from this method low.

Second,
Psychology applies EVERYWHERE, no matter what. Newgrounds is no exception. People are still people, and they react the same.
The only thing that is different here on Newgrounds is that you need to get scouted for your work to appear on the Latest page(removing "spam" art). Which isn't THAT flawed as it's written. But again, who is going to watch through all those hundreds upon hundreds of drawings, each and everyone, comment on it, vote and rate? That's right, almost no one. That's why the Popular and Greatest tabs are more viewed, and how do you get there? That's right, by getting better. But how? How DO you know that you are getting better if people are simply passing by your work because it's not popular enough? Even if it is, even if you make a masterpiece, the chance of that skyrocketing you at least to the middle is lower then winning a lottery jackpot.
And here is the problem at hand, how DO we know that no one actually used the scheme I described? If views and ratings exist, that means they somehow affect your place on the portal. And that means anyone can and could have actually used already bots to "boost" themselves?

Third,
Ignoring the obvious statements.

Fourth, (hypothetically speaking)
Okay, let me ask you, how can I get a commission from a person I don't even know? And even if I did find out, how can I be sure he is reliable?
Hm? Of course I see his drawings, I see the prices, but I don't see any followers, I don't see any commissions that he did make for others, yet he has amazing art. Tell me, are you going to buy work from him? No. You won't. That's why people buy Coca-Cola or Pepsi instead of homemade lemonade that is sold in the nearest shop. Because Coca-Cola has a name, and those who through time tried their product, and that is a guarantee. Same with art. You will never by art from someone who has a whole bunch of amazing art but no clients, because the question comes "Why he doesn't have them?" The seed of doubt has been planted.
In short, this is the reason everyone is so eager to have a lot of followers/subscribers/friends/reposts etc. Because THAT is a guarantee and these people are potential buyers. And it's the main source of good reviews, comments, votes, which in time increase your status overall, everywhere.
Your quality on the internet means nothing if you don't have the people to support you. Unless you are like me who isn't aiming to get more of them, but rather a specific amount and type of them, or you are that indifferent.

Fifth,
Aside from the obvious.
You just read First, Second and Fourth.
And yeah, maybe im not selfish and consider the fact that even those who get heart broken over a 3 instead of 4 need to get a chance.
Plus, it's not fool-proof and jealous-proof, so, there's that too.
Those who abuse end up banned (obviously), but, do you really think there aren't those who aren't smart enough to manage it to make it not suspicious?

And for the last part, if it's that easy, then why don't you do it more often?
Because I don't do it. I don't need to. I don't do things that have no value to me or use.
Maybe others don't understand too, but the main theme of my OP wasn't about me getting more views or ratings, it's about not getting it the proper way(rather clarifying if it's true). You are telling me quite the opposite.
Im saying the flaw that here, on Newgrounds, due to the system of views(and to some degree votes) make an inconsistent and unfair advantage against those like me(new ones). In addition to that, making it hard to tell if you are improving or not.

[White-Gin]

At 4/20/16 07:40 PM, Groako wrote: Gotta pitch in on this one, the ratings and the views especially are pretty inaccurate, and drawing licensed characters and boobs will get you a lot more views, ratings and popularity than other artists who don't (Shadman is a prime example (NSFW)).

They're not saying this from a perspective of 'you shouldn't care'. Almost everyone on these art forums is a learning artist seeking to improve. They're just trying to say that you really shouldn't judge the value of your work off of the views, because that mostly depends on the thumbnail and whether there are boobs in it. Of course higher quality work generally means more views, but there are a whole lot of other factors.

As for the original question; I really have no idea. I'm not sure why it would be implemented that way, and I would have thought that it would only register one view from each account. I guess people might get some small advantage by abusing this, but it wouldn't matter in the long run if their art wasn't up to scratch.

I suggest you get some critiques from the forum, because these are generally much more valuable, and they can tell you what you're doing wrong rather than just whether or not you're doing everything wrong.

Agree. But, in that case I would prefer to use Newgrounds for my specific arts and just a place to collect all of my best work, and as you said, post them on forums to get critiques, even though it goes against my own principals (I really don't like to do this), but since it will be only a handful, I think I can make an exception.

[Luwano]

At 4/20/16 06:45 PM, White-Gin wrote:
First one is wrong in many ways.
Just like in the first post. If views mean nothing, then why have them in the first place?
If ratings and views are inaccurate, why do they exist?

They might matter for those who get 1000 views and 200 votes. If you have 80 views and 3 votes, just ignore them seriously. Your dedication to these "arbitrary numbers" is going beyond understandable.

they only get less then half of the deserved attention
aren't getting what they deserve.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Who is to judge how much attention your art actually "deserves". You? You will always appreciate more attention, more feedback as the artist. The users browsing the portal? Well they obviously are not doing a great job determining it, judging by this whole thread.

Second,
But again, who is going to watch through all those hundreds upon hundreds of drawings, each and everyone, comment on it, vote and rate? That's right, almost no one.

Well with that attitude, we could probably ditch the art portal altogether. Many people, especially those also dedicated to the art forum go out of their way to make the art portal a better place by reviewing and voting every day. I personally appreciate their efforts and I just realize I should rather follow their example, instead of just talking about them. :P

That's why the Popular and Greatest tabs are more viewed, and how do you get there? That's right, by getting better. But how? How DO you know that you are getting better if people are simply passing by your work because it's not popular enough? Even if it is, even if you make a masterpiece, the chance of that skyrocketing you at least to the middle is lower then winning a lottery jackpot.

This is untrue. If you really make a masterpiece, it's very unlikely that it will go unnoticed. If you happen to have your art frontpaged even, you will most likely pop up in one of the "Best" sections for a short while. Of course, "masterpiece" might be something different to everybody.

And here is the problem at hand, how DO we know that no one actually used the scheme I described? If views and ratings exist, that means they somehow affect your place on the portal. And that means anyone can and could have actually used already bots to "boost" themselves?

There will be never a way to monitor the portal to be 100% sure, but apparently it has happened and action was taken. You can't boost yourself into the best of the year and at the same time not boost your art too much to not cause any attention. This is contradicting. You seem to be under the misconception that people will vote 5 on shitty art just because it managed to appear in the popular sections.

Fourth, (hypothetically speaking)
Okay, let me ask you, how can I get a commission from a person I don't even know? And even if I did find out, how can I be sure he is reliable?
Hm? Of course I see his drawings, I see the prices, but I don't see any followers, I don't see any commissions that he did make for others, yet he has amazing art. Tell me, are you going to buy work from him?

Yes. If his art is great, I want to commission someone and he offers commissons, I will. Everything else is nonsense, NO SANE CUSTOMER in the world will base this decision on the number of followers.

No. You won't. That's why people buy Coca-Cola or Pepsi instead of homemade lemonade that is sold in the nearest shop. Because Coca-Cola has a name, and those who through time tried their product, and that is a guarantee.

What you are trying to say with this comparison is, that you see a new lemonade in the store, you taste it, you like the taste, but because nobody else bought it before, you won't buy it.

Same with art. You will never by art from someone who has a whole bunch of amazing art but no clients, because the question comes "Why he doesn't have them?" The seed of doubt has been planted.

By that flawed logic, nobody would get a commission ever. In the history of the world until the end of the universe, no art commission would ever be sold.

In short, this is the reason everyone is so eager to have a lot of followers/subscribers/friends/reposts etc. Because THAT is a guarantee and these people are potential buyers. And it's the main source of good reviews, comments, votes, which in time increase your status overall, everywhere.

Nope, I can buy a million facebook followers right now and order them to give me good reviews and yet they would be absolutely worthless.

Fifth,
Those who abuse end up banned (obviously), but, do you really think there aren't those who aren't smart enough to manage it to make it not suspicious?

Then how in the world will they be noticed? Gaining attention by not causing... too much attention?

Maybe others don't understand too, but the main theme of my OP wasn't about me getting more views or ratings, it's about not getting it the proper way(rather clarifying if it's true). You are telling me quite the opposite.

Yet you talked about "people" not getting the attention they deserve just a little higher up in the post I quoted. Twice.
Just use the "relative numbers" as comparison if that helps you. The "change" you can see from pic to pic, or not see. Get what I mean?

Im saying the flaw that here, on Newgrounds, due to the system of views(and to some degree votes) make an inconsistent and unfair advantage against those like me(new ones). In addition to that, making it hard to tell if you are improving or not.

For the last time. UNLESS your views dramatically rise, your viewcount is absolutely meaningless for your improvement. If you want to improve and get more constructive feedback, start an art thread like one of the others said very early in this thread. Give it a proper name and post aaaaaall your art there, including WIPs and sketches. Ask for specific advice if needed, trust me, this will help you a lot more than 100.000 views.

Please excuse me if parts of this appear rude, I mainly tried to keep it short and honest.

[White-Gin]

At 4/20/16 08:01 PM, Luwano wrote:

At 4/20/16 06:45 PM, White-Gin wrote:
First one is wrong in many ways.
Just like in the first post. If views mean nothing, then why have them in the first place?
If ratings and views are inaccurate, why do they exist?

They might matter for those who get 1000 views and 200 votes. If you have 80 views and 3 votes, just ignore them seriously. Your dedication to these "arbitrary numbers" is going beyond understandable.

they only get less then half of the deserved attention
aren't getting what they deserve.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Who is to judge how much attention your art actually "deserves". You? You will always appreciate more attention, more feedback as the artist. The users browsing the portal? Well they obviously are not doing a great job determining it, judging by this whole thread.

Second,
But again, who is going to watch through all those hundreds upon hundreds of drawings, each and everyone, comment on it, vote and rate? That's right, almost no one.

Well with that attitude, we could probably ditch the art portal altogether. Many people, especially those also dedicated to the art forum go out of their way to make the art portal a better place by reviewing and voting every day. I personally appreciate their efforts and I just realize I should rather follow their example, instead of just talking about them. :P

That's why the Popular and Greatest tabs are more viewed, and how do you get there? That's right, by getting better. But how? How DO you know that you are getting better if people are simply passing by your work because it's not popular enough? Even if it is, even if you make a masterpiece, the chance of that skyrocketing you at least to the middle is lower then winning a lottery jackpot.

This is untrue. If you really make a masterpiece, it's very unlikely that it will go unnoticed. If you happen to have your art frontpaged even, you will most likely pop up in one of the "Best" sections for a short while. Of course, "masterpiece" might be something different to everybody.

And here is the problem at hand, how DO we know that no one actually used the scheme I described? If views and ratings exist, that means they somehow affect your place on the portal. And that means anyone can and could have actually used already bots to "boost" themselves?

There will be never a way to monitor the portal to be 100% sure, but apparently it has happened and action was taken. You can't boost yourself into the best of the year and at the same time not boost your art too much to not cause any attention. This is contradicting. You seem to be under the misconception that people will vote 5 on shitty art just because it managed to appear in the popular sections.

Fourth, (hypothetically speaking)
Okay, let me ask you, how can I get a commission from a person I don't even know? And even if I did find out, how can I be sure he is reliable?
Hm? Of course I see his drawings, I see the prices, but I don't see any followers, I don't see any commissions that he did make for others, yet he has amazing art. Tell me, are you going to buy work from him?

Yes. If his art is great, I want to commission someone and he offers commissons, I will. Everything else is nonsense, NO SANE CUSTOMER in the world will base this decision on the number of followers.

No. You won't. That's why people buy Coca-Cola or Pepsi instead of homemade lemonade that is sold in the nearest shop. Because Coca-Cola has a name, and those who through time tried their product, and that is a guarantee.

What you are trying to say with this comparison is, that you see a new lemonade in the store, you taste it, you like the taste, but because nobody else bought it before, you won't buy it.

Same with art. You will never by art from someone who has a whole bunch of amazing art but no clients, because the question comes "Why he doesn't have them?" The seed of doubt has been planted.

By that flawed logic, nobody would get a commission ever. In the history of the world until the end of the universe, no art commission would ever be sold.

In short, this is the reason everyone is so eager to have a lot of followers/subscribers/friends/reposts etc. Because THAT is a guarantee and these people are potential buyers. And it's the main source of good reviews, comments, votes, which in time increase your status overall, everywhere.

Nope, I can buy a million facebook followers right now and order them to give me good reviews and yet they would be absolutely worthless.

Fifth,
Those who abuse end up banned (obviously), but, do you really think there aren't those who aren't smart enough to manage it to make it not suspicious?

Then how in the world will they be noticed? Gaining attention by not causing... too much attention?

Maybe others don't understand too, but the main theme of my OP wasn't about me getting more views or ratings, it's about not getting it the proper way(rather clarifying if it's true). You are telling me quite the opposite.

Yet you talked about "people" not getting the attention they deserve just a little higher up in the post I quoted. Twice.
Just use the "relative numbers" as comparison if that helps you. The "change" you can see from pic to pic, or not see. Get what I mean?

Im saying the flaw that here, on Newgrounds, due to the system of views(and to some degree votes) make an inconsistent and unfair advantage against those like me(new ones). In addition to that, making it hard to tell if you are improving or not.

For the last time. UNLESS your views dramatically rise, your viewcount is absolutely meaningless for your improvement. If you want to improve and get more constructive feedback, start an art thread like one of the others said very early in this thread. Give it a proper name and post aaaaaall your art there, including WIPs and sketches. Ask for specific advice if needed, trust me, this will help you a lot more than 100.000 views.

Please excuse me if parts of this appear rude, I mainly tried to keep it short and honest.

Well, it is rude, whether you like it or not, plus more then half of everything you said is contradictory to practically the whole business market. Plus with such double standards, complete ignorance of what others type and the overall context (and context warping) in addition to not seeing the whole picture, I can't take people like you seriously.

To make it short. My OP is concerning not only me, but others too. The system is flawed, severely, I already explained how and where.
It can be abused, it is abused (most likely), and it will be, unless something is done about it.

You maybe don't understand because you already have an established high level and simply can't even remember how it is when EVERYTHING, from votes to comments, to ratings, to followers count in the beginning, and the struggle to sustain it (I personally don't care that much for it, but even I know that it's THAT important, for the others atleast).

I can prove it completely and thoroughly, but I wont, the character limit and risk of starting a "war" will not benefit anyone, and I know it will end in all of us staying with our own principals and some getting a ban(maybe). So I will end it here as it is.

I repeat, the system is flawed, some benefit more then others, some get more from less, that is all. It may not sound like it is, but it's there, and it does has it's effects, we just can't see it or rather detect it.

[Cairos]

I suggest for you to stop judging the portal at face value.

I thought you were aware of it's current condition but it's clear you are only walking to a dead end. Passively wracking up numbers does not equal to one's value as an artist here nor anywhere else. Interacting with other individuals and providing quality content does.

If someone wants to be a snake and "exploit" so be it. It's not your position to police, you just do what you do as a content creator and make stuff for other folks to enjoy. The snakes get exposed eventually.

Do not ask for the mountain to be moved. Climb it.

[Template88]

Just putting in my 2 cents here, I do pretty much browse the portal based on thumbnails, but sometimes a specific set of colors or a style I'm not familiar with will cause me to look at something. Looking at every piece that gets submitted on the portal every day wouldn't be particularly hard, as there isn't much of them, but a lot of them I find pretty boring, and I can tell they're boring just from the thumbnail. I DO however check out every single thread on the art forum pretty much every day all the time regardless if i recognize the OP or if the title is some clickbait garbage. I almost NEVER use the 5 point rating system unless its to vote on a piece that imo has a lower rating than it should or theres nothing to say about it, even though it gained my interest enough to click on its thumbnail. I almost always leave a review for the art though if there is something to say about it, and if theres really nothing to say about it ill leave a rating at the bare minimum. Newgrounds ratings are pretty much trash though, but curiously people seem to be affected by it regardless.

[SourCherryJack]

@white-gin
I'm not ignoring what you're writing, I'm trying to pick out the parts of it that I can respond to. Your posts are so long and complicated its difficult to pick out what exactly is being said.
Keep in mind when I post something its coming from a place of experience. I have been on Newgrounds and been using the Art Portal for quite some time, I also have some experience doing commissions and trying to sell my work, so while I'm not saying that my posts on the matter are gospel and should be taken as absolute truths they are coming from a place of experience.
When I, and others, say not to worry so much about views and ratings we mean they aren't a good metric by which to measure your work's quality. Scores don't matter to us, because on the Art Forum what matters most to us is improvement, and the way you get improvement is through doing studies and getting solid written feedback on how to improve, not +10 followers, 1,000 views or a 4.5 star rating.
If you see somebody's portfolio, you know their work, a portfolio consists of work both personal and commissioned. That is how you know they can deliver on a commission. Not because they (as Luwano said) potentially bought a million subscribers or followers. Also I get what you're trying to do with the Coke and Pepsi analogy but its tenuous at best. Art isn't a product and no artist has the brand recognition of Coca-Cola, and the ones that approach that aren't anywhere near this board and sell their work for thousands on thousands to millions of dollars.

Yes people want a lot of followers and subscribers to increase potential to sell I never said that wasn't the case the point all of us are trying to make is that somebody at your skill level shouldn't be focusing on building an audience. You should be focusing on building your skills. That being said in terms of building an audience you say you don't want to interact with the community, because it doesn't interest you, well that's your choice, but that's not how networking works. You gotta put yourself out there to get noticed; and the best way to do that is interact with a community, otherwise you look like a plastic salesman trying to get people to buy your wares then disappearing to the next town.

You say people don't see the whole picture or are ignoring parts of your grievances, I really don't get where that's coming from because we're trying to give you advice on how to go forward with it all but you keep telling us we're ignoring half your posts... At the end of it all I just don't know what to tell you, man.

Last thing you put toward the end of your response to me: "And for the last part, if it's that easy, then why don't you do it more often?"
I don't know if you're asking me why I don't vote on submissions more often or if you were quoting me, but to clarify if you're asking me: I vote on every submission to the art portal and go through the art portal almost every day. I also leave reviews pretty frequently ( though not as often as I wish I did). If you were just misquoting me and quoting incorrectly then maybe next time use quotation marks.

[White-Gin]

At 4/20/16 10:53 PM, JackDCurleo wrote: @white-gin
I'm not ignoring what you're writing, I'm trying to pick out the parts of it that I can respond to. Your posts are so long and complicated its difficult to pick out what exactly is being said.
Keep in mind when I post something its coming from a place of experience. I have been on Newgrounds and been using the Art Portal for quite some time, I also have some experience doing commissions and trying to sell my work, so while I'm not saying that my posts on the matter are gospel and should be taken as absolute truths they are coming from a place of experience.
When I, and others, say not to worry so much about views and ratings we mean they aren't a good metric by which to measure your work's quality. Scores don't matter to us, because on the Art Forum what matters most to us is improvement, and the way you get improvement is through doing studies and getting solid written feedback on how to improve, not +10 followers, 1,000 views or a 4.5 star rating.
If you see somebody's portfolio, you know their work, a portfolio consists of work both personal and commissioned. That is how you know they can deliver on a commission. Not because they (as Luwano said) potentially bought a million subscribers or followers. Also I get what you're trying to do with the Coke and Pepsi analogy but its tenuous at best. Art isn't a product and no artist has the brand recognition of Coca-Cola, and the ones that approach that aren't anywhere near this board and sell their work for thousands on thousands to millions of dollars.

Yes people want a lot of followers and subscribers to increase potential to sell I never said that wasn't the case the point all of us are trying to make is that somebody at your skill level shouldn't be focusing on building an audience. You should be focusing on building your skills. That being said in terms of building an audience you say you don't want to interact with the community, because it doesn't interest you, well that's your choice, but that's not how networking works. You gotta put yourself out there to get noticed; and the best way to do that is interact with a community, otherwise you look like a plastic salesman trying to get people to buy your wares then disappearing to the next town.

You say people don't see the whole picture or are ignoring parts of your grievances, I really don't get where that's coming from because we're trying to give you advice on how to go forward with it all but you keep telling us we're ignoring half your posts... At the end of it all I just don't know what to tell you, man.

Last thing you put toward the end of your response to me: "And for the last part, if it's that easy, then why don't you do it more often?"
I don't know if you're asking me why I don't vote on submissions more often or if you were quoting me, but to clarify if you're asking me: I vote on every submission to the art portal and go through the art portal almost every day. I also leave reviews pretty frequently ( though not as often as I wish I did). If you were just misquoting me and quoting incorrectly then maybe next time use quotation marks.

I said not once, not twice, but three times already. But since people can't read everything properly, I will repeat for the last time.
I. DONT. CARE. ABOUT. VIEWS. AND. RATINGS.

Okay, now I have made it clear enough even a blind person can see it.

The problem at first was me questioning if the increase in views is from me every time I click my drawing or not. It was the case.
The possibility of self-rating through the 6 votes is also an issue, but is easily bypassable.
However, it IS important for me how many UNIQUE views I get.
I DO get enough info from the amount of views, whether you like or not, whether it works or doesn't for you.

This is how it does works. Short version.
Draw -> Post -> During a weekly period see the increase in views.
If during three days I get 5 views, and on another drawing during the same three days 10 views, I think I can make a logical assumption I AM getting better (read my post with the psychology part). It's THAT simple. But this Newground system just ruins it.

Since I am new, I am preferable to draw a different variety of art, to get a sense what is mine, to see what is in demand etc.
But how can I self-judge without referring to the forums? Which by the way I DON'T like to do, at all. I don't like forums, posting critiques-requests with asking people to look at my work and see if it's good or not. It's time consuming and no more accurate then the rating and commenting system, which was created (referring to the overall creation) in the first place, to easy out the need for artists to rely every time on the forums for advice, and for viewers to judge. Of course no one prohibits you from using the forums once in a while, but if that is the only viable option to actually more accurately get better, then as I said, I will just use Newgrounds only as a collector of my best work (and also a place where I can easily license my ideas).

And please, stop with the suggestions that I know about for more then 6 years. I know even more then I should on the How-To.
The bigger problem is the lack or hard to obtain quality knowledge or information, but that is irrelevant to the topic.
That is all.

[Template88]

At 4/21/16 07:21 AM, White-Gin wrote: things that trigger artists

You know, if useful critique and information about how to improve and get exposure is what you want....you could always try making friends with artists. Artists that are better than you, artists that are just as good as you, artists that might be worse than you but still have a good pair of eyes and a different perspective. You know, by talking to them, and maybe not by antagonizing an entire forum full of them.

But if you want to question the mechanics of the portal pointlessly, by all means....

[anthchem]

I just go and check the forum, and see what I can only describe to be a flame war. Can't we all just draw silly dudlz together?

Moving on: Is the system flawed? Yes. We live in an era of extreme click bait where pandering to the lowest common denominator generally gets the most views. Can the system be improved? Yes. Will it ever be perfect? No. There will always be people abusing the system. Do I think you believe the system can be perfect? No (just thought I'd say this so you don't get me wrong).

Any who, just post on the art forum (like what groako and template said) if you want to get critique to see what people think of your art or if you want to improve as an artist. Getting critique from your peers is really the best way to get a true understanding of how you stand as an artist.

[ThePsychoSheep]

For a person who doesn't give a damn about views you sure know how to write walls of text about them.I'm really having trouble taking your problem seriously after all this.Views don't determine your skill level,lad.Take a good look at the popular section in the art portal and you can see for yourself.Just keep practicing and drawing and everything will start to arrange itself one by one.
I was going to write a longer argument of your previous posts but I didn't because:

1.Other users beat me to it already

2.The moment you started comparing a human individual with skills and soft drink brands is were I lost my shit and closed the tab.

Peace out

[White-Gin]

At 4/21/16 10:56 AM, dilandoubishop wrote: Your deviant art profile proclaims "I don't care if you like my work or don't, I don't care if you favorite it or watch me, I just do what I like and share it with the public. I don't join groups, unless I have the need" So I am guessing that you don't care about our opinion anyway. My first impression of you is that you don't care, your unfriendly, your angry. But you don't care what I think or say anyway.

Your post is completely irrelevant to the overall topic, and my personal point of view on life/work has nothing to do with the OP.
But you are right, I don't care about your opinion, because it's useless, and your first impression is your own, which again, is useless to me, and if I have to be sarcastic and cold-blooded to people like you, well, there is no IF, because I will be.
People like you who are bounded to their own primitive expectations that someone will be kind to someone else, are in the end just making it up for a show.
If you want a friendly attitude from me, earn it. Simple as that. How you will achieve it? Well if you really want it, then you will find a way. I am always neutral at first.
So unless you have ANYTHING to say useful considering the topic, be an explanation on how the system actually works/exists, or where to find reliable help on getting accurate constructive critiques with links to a tutorial, that is actually more useful then you copy-pasting my "proclaim" under a negative tone, which, by they way, is not only inaccurate, but also shows how low a person went into getting an argument out of someones personal point of view.
I would actually just end it right here and block you for such act, but, lets put it this way, I give you a second chance since you don't quite know me, and it is only an opinion. You have three options as I see it.
1)Stay by what you said.
2)Redeem yourself by rethinking what you said.
3)Or just ignore and say nothing.
Your choice.

[Cairos]

I understand now. This whole thread is a collaborative effort in a contemporary piece!

All of us are attempting to comprehend what the problem is when there simply isn't one!

It's because you are the only one!

Brilliant! I am glad to be part of such an engaging effort!

[ThePsychoSheep]

At 4/21/16 12:30 PM, Cairos wrote: I understand now. This whole thread is a collaborative effort in a contemporary piece!

All of us are attempting to comprehend what the problem is when there simply isn't one!

It's because you are the only one!

Brilliant! I am glad to be part of such an engaging effort!

I think OP is just frustrated because his recent job application was taken by a can of Coke.I heard they have some superb portfolios to show off.Don't you just hate it when that happens?

[Template88]

At 4/21/16 11:49 AM, White-Gin wrote: more stuff that triggers artists

You did it! you won the "make everybody hate you in less than 10 posts" game!

Are you enjoying your prize?

I'm honestly impressed, I'm at 1k and I still cant get results like this.

[SourCherryJack]

At 4/21/16 12:30 PM, Cairos wrote: I understand now. This whole thread is a collaborative effort in a contemporary piece!

BRAVO OP! BRAVO!!! 10/10 5/5 1000 views and 50 followers!

At 4/21/16 12:54 PM, ThePsychoSheep wrote: I think OP is just frustrated because his recent job application was taken by a can of Coke.I heard they have some superb portfolios to show off.Don't you just hate it when that happens?

This has gone on long enough, we need to give art back to artists! #canitcoke2016

[White-Gin]

At 4/21/16 02:07 PM, Template88 wrote: At 4/21/16 11:49 AM, White-Gin wrote: more stuff that triggers artists

You did it! you won the "make everybody hate you in less than 10 posts" game!

Are you enjoying your prize?

I'm honestly impressed, I'm at 1k and I still cant get results like this.

Hm, well, im not surprised that idiots are the only people that hate me.
After all, im not a butt licking show off that tries to please the masses.

[Cairos]

You.

[Template88]

At 4/21/16 02:33 PM, White-Gin wrote: to template88

Hm, well, im not surprised that idiots are the only people that hate me.
After all, im not a butt licking show off that tries to please the masses.

You remind me of myself, when i was 15.

[SourCherryJack]

At 4/21/16 07:21 AM, White-Gin wrote: The bigger problem is the lack or hard to obtain quality knowledge or information, but that is irrelevant to the topic.
That is all.

Quality knowledge and information can be obtained in the art forum, by asking other artists for their opinions on your work. But you need to post up your work here to get that.