I am an aspiring composer and I'm ready to start off my career, however, there seems to be a huge issue when it comes to finding jobs as someone with no experience. I just can't find those first jobs. They are either already taken or way above my skillset. Some people say to look for games still in development before they are even looking for musicians.. But I can't even figure out how to do such things. I have been scoring to video so I have proof that I can score.. (not just make songs..) I just would like some tips on how to get some work if someone would like to pass some info to me..
Thanks.
-William.
Build a portfolio of work.
Get artistic. Take a chance. Delve into something you've never done before. Get better at making good sounds. Keep evolving. Continuously create music.
But don't become a fanboy of your own work.
When it comes to getting in with video game teams? There really isn't a "1 stop shop" for them to find artists. Seriously there isn't.
While Newgrounds has a MASSIVE index catalogue of sounds, it is not the only place they come looking for sounds, music, FX, composers, or filler tracks. At the same time forums are the worst place to accept jobs unless it is a well respected forum. (Newgrounds is iffy at best.)
But people want to see your portfolio. I myself have about 16 different websites that I post my music up onto but this place seems to get me the most exposure for some reason. More people come here to look at music than any other website (Reverbnation, Soundcloud, Unsigned, soundclick, freesound, spotify, itunes, amazon, google..... The list goes on of websites that I have tried using to get some so called "Exposure" but nothing ever happens. My music just sits there like billions of other submissions that never even get a single play.)
The big thing right now is Dubstep. And I ****ing hate dubstep. I even wrote in the description of my own song how much I despise Dubstep and yet.... people don't even bother reading it. Instead they just repost it on their facebook page and say "HEY LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND!" And you see my description of the song state : "I hate dubstep."
So if you want to stand a chance at getting out there real quick.... get into dubstep and release a track yesterday aimed at video games. (It is very easy to do dubstep in about 6 different ways. 3xOscillators, Vocodex, Vocoder, Sytrus, Distortion filters on a wacky and weird guitar loop, filter effects on some of the older preset bass synths. You could even put the tag of dubstep on your song and immediately you will get a posse in almost literally seconds of people who are suddenly your biggest fans. Even if you don't have any bass wubs in it. Seriously I did this with one song once and tipped 1,000 plays almost overnight. Then I created another song that used dubstep but tagged it as DnB and low and behold.... 0 plays.)
And best of all? if you have a spare 50 bux.... go onto blackoctopus-sound and buy their leviathon drum loop, and music loops pack. You will get a bunch of dubstep crap to use in projects how ever you please. And if you know how to splice properly you can become unstoppable in the dubstep community for 1 reason. Dubstep fans will eat, sleep, snort, crap out and recycle dubstep. (Yeah the fanbase is starting to become a little dumb. Much more dumb than some of the other fandoms I have come across in music.) Even if your song has some really washed out dubstep in it. (Dubstep fans remind me of old boy band fans. They will blindly buy anything marked dubstep. Try it sometime. It truly is ridiculous.)
But if you want to differentiate yourself from everyone else.... then do what I did. (It will take you all of about 10-15 years to truly branch out as an artist in anything computer created. As long as you put forth the effort to actually sit down and craft your music. If you don't feel like putting a lot of effort into it then pull a David Guetta. Just spend literally thousands on a bunch of sample packs and just hit the play button. :P
So post up some of your work on here. Let me hear what you've got. I could give out some pointers.
At 10/17/15 05:58 PM, guilmonx wrote: Build a portfolio of work.
Get artistic. Take a chance. Delve into something you've never done before. Get better at making good sounds. Keep evolving. Continuously create music.
But don't become a fanboy of your own work.
When it comes to getting in with video game teams? There really isn't a "1 stop shop" for them to find artists. Seriously there isn't.
While Newgrounds has a MASSIVE index catalogue of sounds, it is not the only place they come looking for sounds, music, FX, composers, or filler tracks. At the same time forums are the worst place to accept jobs unless it is a well respected forum. (Newgrounds is iffy at best.)
But people want to see your portfolio. I myself have about 16 different websites that I post my music up onto but this place seems to get me the most exposure for some reason. More people come here to look at music than any other website (Reverbnation, Soundcloud, Unsigned, soundclick, freesound, spotify, itunes, amazon, google..... The list goes on of websites that I have tried using to get some so called "Exposure" but nothing ever happens. My music just sits there like billions of other submissions that never even get a single play.)
The big thing right now is Dubstep. And I ****ing hate dubstep. I even wrote in the description of my own song how much I despise Dubstep and yet.... people don't even bother reading it. Instead they just repost it on their facebook page and say "HEY LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND!" And you see my description of the song state : "I hate dubstep."
So if you want to stand a chance at getting out there real quick.... get into dubstep and release a track yesterday aimed at video games. (It is very easy to do dubstep in about 6 different ways. 3xOscillators, Vocodex, Vocoder, Sytrus, Distortion filters on a wacky and weird guitar loop, filter effects on some of the older preset bass synths. You could even put the tag of dubstep on your song and immediately you will get a posse in almost literally seconds of people who are suddenly your biggest fans. Even if you don't have any bass wubs in it. Seriously I did this with one song once and tipped 1,000 plays almost overnight. Then I created another song that used dubstep but tagged it as DnB and low and behold.... 0 plays.)
And best of all? if you have a spare 50 bux.... go onto blackoctopus-sound and buy their leviathon drum loop, and music loops pack. You will get a bunch of dubstep crap to use in projects how ever you please. And if you know how to splice properly you can become unstoppable in the dubstep community for 1 reason. Dubstep fans will eat, sleep, snort, crap out and recycle dubstep. (Yeah the fanbase is starting to become a little dumb. Much more dumb than some of the other fandoms I have come across in music.) Even if your song has some really washed out dubstep in it. (Dubstep fans remind me of old boy band fans. They will blindly buy anything marked dubstep. Try it sometime. It truly is ridiculous.)
But if you want to differentiate yourself from everyone else.... then do what I did. (It will take you all of about 10-15 years to truly branch out as an artist in anything computer created. As long as you put forth the effort to actually sit down and craft your music. If you don't feel like putting a lot of effort into it then pull a David Guetta. Just spend literally thousands on a bunch of sample packs and just hit the play button. :P
So post up some of your work on here. Let me hear what you've got. I could give out some pointers.
I agree with the branching out as an artist, I am currently trying to do that myself, and I feel as though it does help.
I have the same problem as the original poster, And now I'm currently building up my portfolio, however I can't seem to get listeners in on any site I upload on, so I have no clue if it's my production or the tagging or whatever of my music songs. I am thinking of making a few covers in different styles to hopefully attract more listeners, in your experience would you recommend that this is a good idea, I know that it sounds like a silly question, but I don't want to waste my time and be more disappointed than my parents lol.
Everytime I go to make a dubstep piece, I lose interest in it as I feel that it won't be anywhere near the standard that I want it to be, if you hate dubstep, how do find the willpower to keep going, do you just push through or what?
Also would you be able to recommend any good sites to upload on, or any more forums to post to, as you seem like a wise person lol.
At 10/17/15 05:58 PM, TheDukeofJuke wrote: Bro, you don't even have a link to your audio. :T
Sorry haha here's my latest work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSSo7ocy5-I
So post up some of your work on here. Let me hear what you've got. I could give out some pointers.
This is my latest work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSSo7ocy5-I
At 10/17/15 08:44 PM, WilliamEllisComposer wrote:This is my latest work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSSo7ocy5-I
So post up some of your work on here. Let me hear what you've got. I could give out some pointers.
Got anything original?
The worth of a man can be measured by the length of his reverb, and the girth of his waveform
Thees waveforme iz veri dangerous. Ve must deal vit it. squash
At 10/17/15 08:53 PM, Rennh wrote:At 10/17/15 08:44 PM, WilliamEllisComposer wrote:Got anything original?This is my latest work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSSo7ocy5-I
So post up some of your work on here. Let me hear what you've got. I could give out some pointers.
That was original. I was just scoring to video... O.o
At 10/17/15 09:46 PM, WilliamEllisComposer wrote:At 10/17/15 08:53 PM, Rennh wrote:That was original. I was just scoring to video... O.oAt 10/17/15 08:44 PM, WilliamEllisComposer wrote:Got anything original?This is my latest work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSSo7ocy5-I
So post up some of your work on here. Let me hear what you've got. I could give out some pointers.
My bad, I didnt know I thought rescore meant you tried to recreate the score, not make a new one for it. I havnt heard the original so I didnt know it was different.
The worth of a man can be measured by the length of his reverb, and the girth of his waveform
Thees waveforme iz veri dangerous. Ve must deal vit it. squash
My bad, I didnt know I thought rescore meant you tried to recreate the score, not make a new one for it. I havnt heard the original so I didnt know it was different.
It's cool. But yeah every bit of audio in the link I provided is mine.
Covers, remixes, remasters... Stay away from those. A lot of people think it is a good idea to do covers and get known that way for your voice or mixing talents. But if you really want to do you, just keep doing you. I always wanted to remix the song New mother Nature, no sugar by the "Guess Who." But I hold myself back. Some remixes are awesome. But if people only know you for your remixes, then that will be what they think of you. Another good remix artist. And if you sing great, they will always request something you probably never heard of.
It is hard to find listeners. I know this. I barely have any on all of my sites combined but somehow my sound gets views. I don't really try to get my sounds out there because I truly am my own biggest critic. I just don't think my **** is good enough really. So I don't try to push it at all.
It could be the tags I use or the interactions I have with people but... One of them never made sense. It is this track here with over 28,000 downloads :
When you type into google just the word "Deixo" you get someone singing in another language... But it doesn't explain why Southern Deixo (Another song of mine) Didn't get as many downloads.
not even the updated version of it got as many views.
Again I never really pushed people to listen to my audio. But tagging your music doesn't seem to affect it. I really think that newgrounds gets a lot of traffic daily. Most of the time I think it comes from artists from one corner or another. But I don't think the current system is really exposing us to the right listeners. Of course newgrounds is advertised in a lot of books for up and comers. I have seen it myself in book stores. But I don't think it is reaching the right people. Maybe if Newgrounds did have a TV ad it might bring some people to the site. But what kind of people would it bring?
But getting people to listen to your stuff doesn't work on social media sites like facebook or twitter unless you put it into a vine video or have it as the background music on a more popular channel. or for something that matches the mood of your track.
I haven't really been able to get the right exposure using the right methods. bringing people together is the hardest part. keeping them as a fan is another thing.
I have talked to a few other people who go to websites like Ludum Dare or go to forums in other places. But even they tell me it is hard to get people to follow you and get your sounds out there. I just never wanted to be that person who adds you and then spams you with all of my music all at once. That annoys the **** out of people. And I think it really is starting to get on artist's nerves that some people add you or follow you simply to push their content onto you. I see this a lot on soundcloud now. I only ever do it on facebook to let my friends hear what I have created. But when someone follows you just so you follow them back for following you, even if they make music or have something in their profile. They do so to healp spread out the sound.
The way it works right now is just.... broken. The music Industry is just broken.
Everyone points to the radio stations in their home town but.... You stand as much of a chance at getting heard as the radio station has listeners. Seriously it is pretty sad. Talking with radio show hosts is no help. I haven't ever gotten any type of radio coverage.
I remember when Myspace allowed you to upload music (Which they still do) but, no one uses Myspace anymore. I know that I do but still... no one ****ing uses myspace anymore. And when it comes to some websites that are trying to repair this or at least come up with a means to create home grown fans.... they all fall short.
List of websites I use:
reverbnation
soundcloud
unsigned
facebook
twitter
Spotify (Which has my song 'Just Fucking Run' in it. Which is hilarious to know it has profanity in the title and it is clear in Spotify.)
google play store (my music is in there for sale too.)
itunes
and websites like deviantart, just not deviantart itself.
It isn't enough. You have to get the word out. But how do you so that others don't think of you as being a ****** for throwing an add in their face?
So I am not the best when it comes to getting people to hear you. That is where I fall short. I think that is where everyone falls short. It is so hard to get listeners from every corner of the world.
But I have always had this theory that the best way to get discovered is by accident. I like trying to get people to find out about me by accident. In my own shop I will play my music whilst people sit down and eat and every so often they will ask me who is playing on the radio. I never tell them "That is me on the radio. I made it."
No instead I tell them "Give me a moment and I will find out for you." (Which most of the time they say 'soundhound couldn't find it.')
I bring back my phone real quick and pull up my profile without showing my face on it and say "I believe this is who is playing on the radio currently. Open Canvas by The_Con-Sept. Here, he spells his name funny."
And though it may take time... I just want to make it feel like they just discovered a new artist they've never heard before and want to hear more. But that barely ever happens.
Sometimes they ask me what app I am using... I just tell them I am using Pandora, or Spotify.
But there needs to be a way that an artist can get discovered by accident like this. I also had an idea for a project I wanted to work on by making a bunch of burned CD's and walking around strip malls handing them out to random people who like drum and bass.
I do remember getting a "demo disk" from someone at a rave before, but I myself just threw it into the trash. So I thought about putting my signature on them and giving it to them telling them it will be worth millions in about 30 years. Adding that sense of instant value to the signed CD's that I handed out to get my music out there. But I don't think it will really work. I mean... People just throw away discs all the time. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't.
At 10/18/15 03:45 AM, guilmonx wrote: Covers, remixes, remasters... Stay away from those.
Again, the audio in the link I provided is all mine. It wasn't a remix. None of the original music aspects are even remotely used in my rescore.
At 10/18/15 12:36 PM, WilliamEllisComposer wrote:At 10/18/15 03:45 AM, guilmonx wrote: Covers, remixes, remasters... Stay away from those.Again, the audio in the link I provided is all mine. It wasn't a remix. None of the original music aspects are even remotely used in my rescore.
He's just giving you advice, mate. :)
Remixes, Covers, etc. are actually excellent and recommended for un-published practice exercises to help you build your chops, but should not be used as portfolio material.
The great irony of the aspiring composer for media is that in order to get jobs, you have to have already completed jobs.
The first thing you have to do is keep composing regularly and keep that work going on sites like Newgrounds, depending on your tastes. You will only really find gigs on sites specifically related to game audio... on others (Soundcloud, Bandcamp, etc.) you will find FANS, not CLIENTS. The bottom line is- keep active. If you are persistent, you will observe a small trickle of gigs. Participate in online forums such as this one, and you can find some on your own as well. Official job search tools can provide more serious work, but you had better have a decent resume by then. There's always cold-turkey contacting local developers/animators here on Newgrounds whose works you enjoy- the less popular, the higher chance of a gig. Beware that you will have trouble soliciting a small-time animator or developer to pay you any serious amount of money for your work. You should probably start by doing royalty-based, low-cost, or even pro-bono work, but be very very careful about working for free, as it is not recommended under any circumstances except those in which you strongly support a particular cause behind a project (such as a game developed by a charity or to support a charity).
Participate in game jams as much as possible. There are tons of these all the time. Game jams let you gain skills, a portfolio, experience, and collaborators, all for free. You also learn valuable lessons in how to cope with less than ideal partnerships and how to get the job done under both short and long deadlines. There are also local game jams rather often, at local universities and the like. If you're in Uni and there's a game development club, consider joining up. Also keep an eye out for local game development groups or post-mortems in your closest metropolitan area. Often developers in cities form groups and have weekly get-togethers to discuss the craft, share ideas, and network.
Be sure you always present yourself professionally but not coldly. Take good care to learn your audience before applying to a gig and to address the actual project specifically. Understanding the "landscape" of the world you are about to enter is essential to success in finding work. Be polite and friendly, but not to the point of coming off as unprofessional or goofy. Be genuine in all discussions.
Look at someone like Kevin MacLeod/Incometech. All the guy really did was create a crapload of royalty-free music and put it on the internet for a long time. Ended up getting him tons of people wanting his stuff. He sells a bit of "premium" stuff on the side and charges industry rates for custom stuff, and that gives him a living. The key to being successful is not trying to be successful, but just doing your job for a very long time. You have to build a reputation before you can build success. If all you do is try to figure out how to find jobs and how to make money, you're not going to make it as fast as if you build up a solid reputation on a site first through hard work.
He's just giving you advice, mate. :)
Yeah, I understand. I didn't mean to seem disrespectful. I was just pointing out that it was all my own work. Also, Thanks for the advice. I honestly didn't even know this 'gamejam' idea even existed. So I will definitely try that. I understand I'm in for a lot of work, however, this is what I want to do. And nothing is going to stop me from trying.
Speak another language. 1/2 my work came because I speak French. :)
Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! Veteran REAPER user. Ready to rock! :)
At 10/18/15 04:30 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Speak another language. 1/2 my work came because I speak French. :)
First of all you made me laugh with that statement... hahahahaha. You don't have to speak another language to get your music out there.
No.
Anyway I thought I clarified what remixing and covers are. And why you should stay away from them. Like how I wanted to remix "New Mother Nature/No Sugar" by the "Guess Who." Or doing a "cover." I personally stay away from that noise as it is not me. It is not artistic. A lot of the time people think if they decide to remix a rap song it will get them to listen to their body of work. But again people will only recognize the remix of the song you created and totally not care for anything else you have made. They will only remember your remixed piece or your cover. Stay away from that. If you want to remix or do a cover to a song to prove to yourself that you can make something sound good then do it, but don't make it a means to attract fans or sell it. Just do it to see if you can do it. Again don't share, sell, or try to attract fans that way. It never works!
You can't make the listener stray from their favorite artist like that. The only proven method of getting people to actually listen to your work is only if you do an entire album with another person. That means every track you and the other artist are performing together in the same piece. Perfect example: Nu:Logic (Logistics with Nu:Tone) Though these two are actually biological brothers, they teamed up and created a single album together. And you know what? I actually keep tabs on what Nu:Tone is doing now. I know he released a few singles here and there but he stopped making his own albums. I myself hate hip hop, but that seems to be what Nu:Tone is all about. His brother (Logistics) has more of the style that I love and respect. It is the style that got me to make my music that much more interesting.
But when they are together they make some awesome ****ing music. Nu:Logic's album "All the things that I wanted" is in my top 3 picks for a go to album for drum and bass now. Aside from Calyx and Teebee, and Noisia.
But I can't listen to Nu:Tone by himself. I always go for Logistics.
I hate it when I see an artist upload his entire library or body of work and it consists of more than 10% covers or remixes. That just tells me the artist isn't really an artist. More like a "Copy and Paste" artist. Now not to say that everyone who has more than 10% of their library consisting of remixes all suck. I am just saying that it is usually my first clue that..... they won't make anything that I will enjoy listening to myself. It is in my own opinion and each and every time it is usually true. Why? because they are trying to attract a money crowd. And it kills me as an artist to see people doing this it really does.
I wish to see people creating NEW music instead of copying and pasting the same melodies and harmonies from other songs and trying to put a ****ing spin on it. Video game songs. My god I wish they'd stop. And what I mean by video game songs is what I just explained above. I don't want to hear your kirby's dreamland remix ****er! I want to hear something NEW and EXCITING!
But I can't stop them from doing so. And seriously sometimes it just floods the entire newgrounds audio portal. I wish it would ****ing stop already. Any time I see the tag "Video Game Song," I don't even click on it myself. Why? Because what I have been accustomed to expect is trash. I hate to disrespect the artists who do this but seriously stop it. There are too many remixes for ****ing sonic. Don't believe me?
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/search/title/Sonic
3,121 results for 'Sonic' (note that this includes all sub/genres of audio.) more than 100 of them are for Green Hill Zone Act 1.
So again I will try to reiterate why you should not be using remixes or covers to advertise your capabilities.
Any fan of Sonic will see a remix of your sonic song and love it. Possibly even review it. If they like what you did with that one song they will want to hear your remix of CASINO ZONE ACT 1. And if you don't have any other remixes of Sonic then their exploration into your body of work gets DASHED OUT of their minds. Mostly because they want to hear Sonic Songs.
Stay away from remixes of others work. Instead remix your own work. Yes Remix your own creative works of audio art. That shows people how you have evolved. Here is my example of my own remix of my own songs:
12/04/2006
Versus the remixed version.
07/22/2014
Or this one that I just remixed:
05/06/2009
Versus the Remix I just completed not more than two weeks ago:
10/06/2015
This shows you how you have evolved as an artist and is a very good comparison to see how well you have turned out to be as an artist. Even though I think my own remixed version has a weaker back beat, it still provokes the feeling of fleeing from certain death for Just ****ing Run! As for my other remix.... I really feel more embarrassed for the most part of how it turned out. But I did stay true to keeping the feeling of nervous love in it. Like you want to say you love someone.... but you instead decide to "Friendzone the *****."
+++++++++++++++++++++++
But there is something I just discovered that seems really interesting.
I did a search on my profile of work and noticed a website called edm.me has my work in their archives. At least all of my work from like 2014 and below. I deleted the songs mostly but it looks like it has the setup of a console trophy/achievement system in place for being active in your favorite genre.
Kind of hard to explain but I will be going there next. Just to see what it is all about.
At 10/18/15 07:12 PM, guilmonx wrote:At 10/18/15 04:30 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Speak another language. 1/2 my work came because I speak French. :)First of all you made me laugh with that statement... hahahahaha. You don't have to speak another language to get your music out there.
No.
Seriously, you're going to come in here and immediately speak to me that way? Have some humility and respect if you want people to listen to you. As a matter of fact, there are a LOT of game designers in France as well as animators etc, so the fact I speak French did get me a lot of work.
Instead you come in here and make a huge post just to advertise your own work. *shrug*
Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! Veteran REAPER user. Ready to rock! :)
At 10/19/15 02:20 AM, MetalRenard wrote:At 10/18/15 07:12 PM, guilmonx wrote:Seriously, you're going to come in here and immediately speak to me that way? Have some humility and respect if you want people to listen to you. As a matter of fact, there are a LOT of game designers in France as well as animators etc, so the fact I speak French did get me a lot of work.At 10/18/15 04:30 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Speak another language. 1/2 my work came because I speak French. :)First of all you made me laugh with that statement... hahahahaha. You don't have to speak another language to get your music out there.
No.
Instead you come in here and make a huge post just to advertise your own work. *shrug*
No... You don't have to speak or understand another language to get your music out there. I had no idea some of my fans are from Japan. I don't even speak Japanese, nor did I interact with any Japanese people. Yet they understand my music. I think the play button is pretty universal.
And no I am not advertising my music in this forum post. Look at the view count. That is a **** poor number of views really. That seriously would be the saddest attempt at advertising myself to the masses. I am giving examples. And because of autonomy reasons I use only my own work for scrutiny. If I were to post up anyone's music beside my own, and they found out that I had something negative to say in a forum post. More drama would ensue. So what better way to give examples and not knock any other artist in the process? I could try to post some crap that some artist had tried in the exact same scenario and then show a more profound version of it, but I don't know of any artists who have tried anything that I have to give a proper example. He is asking for my experience as an artist. So how am I supposed to give out proper examples without my own work to scrutinize my own situation so he understands it better?
At 10/19/15 02:40 AM, guilmonx wrote: No... You don't have to speak or understand another language to get your music out there. I had no idea some of my fans are from Japan. I don't even speak Japanese, nor did I interact with any Japanese people. Yet they understand my music. I think the play button is pretty universal.
Right, thicko, re-read the title. HOW TO FIND JOBS. Sure, "play" is universal, but is negociating a contract always done in your language? It is not. Is understanding what the person wants always in English? It is not. Is every single person on this planet fluent in English? They are not. Speaking several languages has done a LOT for me, I've earnt thousands of dollars from it (outside of my dayjob which involves languages too).
So now you can get off your high-horse, learn some respect and back the hell off.
Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! Veteran REAPER user. Ready to rock! :)
At 10/19/15 12:39 PM, MetalRenard wrote:At 10/19/15 02:40 AM, guilmonx wrote: No... You don't have to speak or understand another language to get your music out there. I had no idea some of my fans are from Japan. I don't even speak Japanese, nor did I interact with any Japanese people. Yet they understand my music. I think the play button is pretty universal.Right, thicko, re-read the title. HOW TO FIND JOBS. Sure, "play" is universal, but is negociating a contract always done in your language? It is not. Is understanding what the person wants always in English? It is not. Is every single person on this planet fluent in English? They are not. Speaking several languages has done a LOT for me, I've earnt thousands of dollars from it (outside of my dayjob which involves languages too).
So now you can get off your high-horse, learn some respect and back the hell off.
Not to encourage this little spit match, but I think MetalRenard is right. This thread is not about getting fans or listens, nor about writing music for pleasure, but about getting gigs in the game scoring industry. The core requisite of working in this industry is being able to communicate with the person hiring you. If you can communicate in more than one language, you are automatically doubling your possible client base. If you only speak English like I do, then you can't pick up gigs from Spanish or German or French game developers. Of course, you can get FANS/plays from those countries, but fans and plays have NOTHING to do with making a living as a game or film composer. There are some extremely popular games that have been scored by composers who don't even have web presences much less soundclouds.
Further proof- @Camoshark speaks both French and English like MetalRenard, and he is quite successful arranging and composing music for bugle corps and shows and the like. I am sure his bilingual (bordering on trilingual) nature lets him work with a much broader array of clients compared to if he was trying to find work in Canada only speaking English. He literally doubles his possible customer base.
Well, I just so happen to get featured in games some how without me talking to the client beforehand. The client approached me in every case making their decision on a specific piece I had already created. Some of them didn't speak the best of English so I sent them a probe e-mail asking them in several different languages to reply to me in their language. Then I would use google translate to figure out what they were saying. That is why I laughed. I use a translation algorithm provided by google to help understand what someone is saying, in Japanese for one case, to get my music into a game.
I don't know anything more than English, and I gave my piece.
But please forgive me for trying to fix a problem with potential producers whilst trying to help them get better chances at landing the gig. I am talking about the problem that most clients have with producers; shallow portfolios.
The testimonials I have heard from people in the game development industry is that they are tired of hearing remixes. This is the most common thing I have heard. And that there isn't enough original content to choose from when they see client's portfolios.
"They don't try to imagine different scenarios for their music."
"They don't take risks in their own portfolios."
"All he can do is 8 bit music."
So forgive me if I am trying to help in more areas than JUST ONE.
The amount of shit talking I have heard some of my development buddies say about their music producers. My god. That is why I sort of DISTANCE myself from it instead of trying to make it my living. Especially knowing how some of them get treated. Especially when the content that was produced does not reflect what they had in their portfolios.
Not taking sides in this spat between @MetalRenard and @guilmonx.
The first thing you need to do in order to get even a remote chance of being heard, sought out and featured in a game, is of course, to keep making music. Keep writing, no matter what remarks you may get, or how insensitive people may be. You will improve, and when you do, history will come to bite your naysayers in the backside.
Next, as @Samulis said, look out for game jams and Ludum Dare events. Some may be hosted on NG proper, but some will be hosted on other sites, and you'll find yourself competing with other musicians, going to those sites, in order to make a good first impression.
Which leads me to point number 3, what is a good first impression? Be yourself. Don't sell yourself short, but don't be so overcome with hubris that you think your work is the best. Don't tense up and go to laborious, third-person professional formalities. The best way to be professional is to be confident, and be yourself. A lesson all of us can learn from time to time.
If you see someone designing what seems to be a really competent game who is advertising it on his news page or summat, approach him. Ask him about the game. Take a deep interest. Compose music for it if you feel inspired, and show it him. If it already has been scored, try rescoring it. Even if he doesn't hire you now, he'll have his eye on you for future projects if your music really takes him by surprise. I know that it's rare that it happens, but it does.
And if you live in Britain or Northern Ireland, get your name out there with BBC Introducing. It's not really getting yourself into games per se, but it does give your music opportunities for radio plays. The entire county where you live will hear your music and know your name if it gets featured. That can give your music a strong form of cred on which to base the rest of your activity.
At 10/19/15 04:46 PM, guilmonx wrote: Well, I just so happen to get featured in games some how without me talking to the client beforehand. The client approached me in every case making their decision on a specific piece I had already created. Some of them didn't speak the best of English so I sent them a probe e-mail asking them in several different languages to reply to me in their language. Then I would use google translate to figure out what they were saying. That is why I laughed. I use a translation algorithm provided by google to help understand what someone is saying, in Japanese for one case, to get my music into a game.
I don't know anything more than English, and I gave my piece.
But please forgive me for trying to fix a problem with potential producers whilst trying to help them get better chances at landing the gig. I am talking about the problem that most clients have with producers; shallow portfolios.
The testimonials I have heard from people in the game development industry is that they are tired of hearing remixes. This is the most common thing I have heard. And that there isn't enough original content to choose from when they see client's portfolios.
"They don't try to imagine different scenarios for their music."
"They don't take risks in their own portfolios."
"All he can do is 8 bit music."
So forgive me if I am trying to help in more areas than JUST ONE.
The amount of shit talking I have heard some of my development buddies say about their music producers. My god. That is why I sort of DISTANCE myself from it instead of trying to make it my living. Especially knowing how some of them get treated. Especially when the content that was produced does not reflect what they had in their portfolios.
Well, again, I don't think we're really talking so much about licensing opportunities- that's when game audio jobs find you. The OP seems to be asking specifically about reaching out to find gigs, likely custom music gigs (not licensing opportunities), where the client has a lot of explaining and discussion to do. You're barking up the licensing tree, MetalRenard is barking up the custom music tree. :P
Somehow I have only ever heard complements (and the occasional mini-rant on time management) from my development friends regarding their composers. Maybe it just depends on where you are looking or what you are gigging on. There are no doubt assholes somewhere in every industry and every field within.
It seems like your observations come from the angle of doing electronic music for games, while mine come from doing orchestral music for games. MetalRenard's come from his own stylistic tastes. Of course we are each right in our own experiences in our field/genre of choice.
For example, in my experience, if anything, game devs complain about my music not sounding ENOUGH like Super Mario Galaxy on just about every single gig I have ever done. Clients typically complain when I try to get funky and do something unique or a little "beyond the cinematic textbook". In my experience, whoever can do the most generic jumbo-sized cinematic guarantees themselves jobs ad nauseam (UNLESS they are hired to work for some artsy animator/dev who understands the ramifications of the term "unique"). What is excellence when it can be summed up as "sounding the most like X benchmark composer"? To me, life as a game composer is walking the fine line between being a total sell-out sound-alike and a starving "art composer" writing for bizzare post-modern ensembles. Luckily, there is such a broad array of games and game companies, that if you specialize or develop personal style without being at a Hans Zimmer level of popularity, you can still find work, and that can mean that you can begin to attract clients based on your personal sound, not your expertise in making the most generic but "epicest" cinematic piece, which will only last so long as the fad does.
I didn't know Game Jams weren't a NG-specific thing...I'm really bad at knowing how to benefit from this website, aside from posting and occasional contests :(
At 10/20/15 12:12 PM, Lich wrote: Some jammy git I used to be in contact with a fair bit back in 11/12/13 actually developed a full game with his own assets in RPG Maker XP, scored a full OST for it and was then able to go and get little composing and sound FX creation jobs for little indie projects elsewhere because he was able to say: "Look, I made a full OST for this game! I could offer the same thing for your project!" and people would be like "Ok cool" and progress from there.
Precisimo! AND, if you do something like a game jam, you get the same benefit- bragging rights that you (possibly) completed a game with a score. As I said waaay back at the start, the weird thing is you need a reputation of being able to complete jobs before you can get jobs, and regardless of how you do that, like Lich's friend, or via some Jams, it's all good in the end. :)
At 10/20/15 02:28 PM, ZipZipper wrote: I didn't know Game Jams weren't a NG-specific thing...I'm really bad at knowing how to benefit from this website, aside from posting and occasional contests :(
the world is waiting for you. :3
At 10/20/15 11:52 AM, samulis wrote: For example, in my experience, if anything, game devs complain about my music not sounding ENOUGH like Super Mario Galaxy on just about every single gig I have ever done. Clients typically complain when I try to get funky and do something unique or a little "beyond the cinematic textbook". In my experience, whoever can do the most generic jumbo-sized cinematic guarantees themselves jobs ad nauseam (UNLESS they are hired to work for some artsy animator/dev who understands the ramifications of the term "unique"). What is excellence when it can be summed up as "sounding the most like X benchmark composer"? To me, life as a game composer is walking the fine line between being a total sell-out sound-alike and a starving "art composer" writing for bizzare post-modern ensembles. Luckily, there is such a broad array of games and game companies, that if you specialize or develop personal style without being at a Hans Zimmer level of popularity, you can still find work, and that can mean that you can begin to attract clients based on your personal sound, not your expertise in making the most generic but "epicest" cinematic piece, which will only last so long as the fad does.
Maybe we should be focusing more on what the development team's wants are, versus what they need. Maybe that sort of information would help producers complete projects that the development team finds more worth while. Or creating portfolios that are more dynamic. Maybe we should approach this answer more of a crowd source style. The crowd source material being any interaction between the producer and the developer. Just to see what scenarios they bring about, or what their stipulations truly are behind that retort of "be more like 'X composer.'" I find it to be more of a fear of being embarrassed overwhelming the curator. (or an overly enlarged pre frontal cortex disorder.)
My attitude towards anyone who tells me to sound more like someone else would be a response like this: "Then go hire him/her. Or is s/he too expensive for your project that you want to find a Discount version of them? Because in my world 'discount' is just another word for 'menial.'"
If your interactions with several different development teams seem to be consistent, then we as producers from different areas should come up with a better way of getting a result they will actually admire. Instead of the development team dismantling the work and sitting in a beguiled imagination about the situation.
I'll see what I can find out from my friends if it can add to this subject or not so we can help out others on here.
Because to me; from the sounds of it on the forefront, and the aftermath that I have heard myself, it is the development teams who are the scared little shits of the industry. (Sort of like the guy who is supposed to do it all, and all by himself. But wants to have the ability to place blame on someone else when he fails, or feels embarrassed about his project.)
At 10/20/15 02:41 PM, guilmonx wrote: Maybe we should be focusing more on what the development team's wants are, versus what they need. Maybe that sort of information would help producers complete projects that the development team finds more worth while. Or creating portfolios that are more dynamic. Maybe we should approach this answer more of a crowd source style. The crowd source material being any interaction between the producer and the developer. Just to see what scenarios they bring about, or what their stipulations truly are behind that retort of "be more like 'X composer.'" I find it to be more of a fear of being embarrassed overwhelming the curator. (or an overly enlarged pre frontal cortex disorder.)
Well, every team and every project has very different desires/needs. Some want 8-bit, others want orchestral, others want who knows what. The people who have hired me (or, at least, the ones I have agreed to work with) always tell me the same reason- they like how my music sounds or they found a particular piece of mine that struck them a particular way. The reason why certain devs want musicians who sound like other musicians is quite obvious- they like that other musician. In the film scoring biz, there is a common effect when someone uses temporary music (say, a piece by Holst) to stand in for the score while making the previz material, and they become enamored with that temp music to the point of being unsatisfied with the eventual composer's work unless it is quite similar to the temp music. You can hear this in a number of movies if you know where to look and what the temp music was.
My attitude towards anyone who tells me to sound more like someone else would be a response like this: "Then go hire him/her. Or is s/he too expensive for your project that you want to find a Discount version of them? Because in my world 'discount' is just another word for 'menial.'"
Pretty much what I tell people... "why don't you go license that song if you like it so much?" I write original music. I don't do covers, I don't do remixes, heck, I don't even do arrangements. Of course, I love putting little quotes in my work- little nods to the people who inspire me to keep at it, but that isn't the same as sounding alike.
In the evolution of the composer, one must first copy, then imitate, then develop. Copy, combine, transform. The three basic elements of creative development.
If your interactions with several different development teams seem to be consistent, then we as producers from different areas should come up with a better way of getting a result they will actually admire. Instead of the development team dismantling the work and sitting in a beguiled imagination about the situation.
The problem as I see it is that many developers just aren't educated or well-listened in music enough to really understand what is going on. There is a similar issue in the film scoring biz. You know you have a good dev when they say "let me sit with this for a few days before giving feedback". Someone who is willing to play it your way and trust your judgement. There is no secret formula, just experience and finding the right people.
I'll see what I can find out from my friends if it can add to this subject or not so we can help out others on here.
Because to me; from the sounds of it on the forefront, and the aftermath that I have heard myself, it is the development teams who are the scared little shits of the industry. (Sort of like the guy who is supposed to do it all, and all by himself. But wants to have the ability to place blame on someone else when he fails, or feels embarrassed about his project.)
Well, I don't think anyone in particular is to blame for anything in particular. Devs have a job- make a game people will want to play. By commutative property, that's your job too as a composer. A good composer can be a bad game scorer if he/she is not able to really understand and work tightly with the emotions and atmosphere of the game. A composer who simply writes whatever they want is no better than a developer who criticizes whatever he wants- the end result is a bad game with a bad score. The only way to avoid the criticisms of the development team is to make music that works in the first place. If you can't say reliably whether or not the team will think a sketch will work or not, then you need to sit down with the dev and really try to get a feel for the emotions and atmosphere you have to hit with your piece. This is where examples come in handy, and this is also where speaking the same language is absolutely crucial. A good game composer will still have work rejected, but they should be able to sense or understand why, unless the dev is an absolute moron, in which case they should have sensed that and rejected the job in the first place.
Personally, I spend about as much time writing as I do talking to the dev, looking at concept art, and trying to understand the material. Often times I have concept art or play-throughs open as I compose.
At 10/17/15 04:41 PM, WilliamEllisComposer wrote: I am an aspiring composer and I'm ready to start off my career
Good for you that's cool, tell me more.
I just can't find those first jobs.
You're going to have to keep looking then?
They are either already taken
Oh excuse me, i thought you just said you couldn't find them at all, my bad.
or way above my skillset.
Wait a minute, you were ready to start a career and now you're not good enough, those are two different things.
Some people say
Oh those some people, is there anything they won't say?
I just would like some tips on how to get some work
Well i'll just run that through the conversation intercom untill it sounds like "how do i get involved in a project."
http://www.newgrounds.com/collab/browse/musician/programmer/1
Besides that there's also these forums in general and threads where people ask for such and such in particular. The only way to get in touch with people is to get in touch with people, if you know what i'm saying.
Cut your teeth on some entry level projects, learn how to deal with your new found colleagues/would be employers along with your own character and work ethic or lack thereof while doing said work will allow you to hone your skills.
Meanwhile, don't entertain fantasies of making a living if you can't do what you would like to be hired for yet, a paycheck does not magically make you a consumate professional nor does it any way or shape improve the quality of your work. Only your blood sweat and tears can do that.
The way most anyone advances is to do the work and then keep doing the work, preferably without being prompted, instructed or cheered on to do so :3
That's my two cents, i wish you the best of luck in your endeavours.
I have seen a lot of examples of what you have portrayed in your own experience with some of the big titles (And if you were one of the people who saw the X-Men origins leak with the "ropes" quip being the best part of the film, then yeah I have heard some of the temp music before. But man when it comes to films they really like keeping viewers out.)
There was one time I had an opportunity to work with a dev team behind a simple little parkour game. But they never contacted me on skype to show me what they had in mind. They didn't mention anything for a story but the one picture I did get only showed me a still shot of the level design for that particular part; And a rough illustrative graphic for the character. I didn't really get any story, or mood from it. It just seemed like another parkour game to me. Which I myself have played many of. They just wanted some stock samples of rock music playing to a fast beat. At least that is what I garnered from the PM. But I later find out with his last PM on skype that they actually got banned from newgrounds.
Oh well.
However that example of completing a project is a good start on portfolio work. I can say that I myself as just another DnB artist, I at one time had the idea behind my own video game idea and started to create music for something that didn't even exist yet. I just imagined it in thin air. Now all of those harmonies and melodies are just a part of a dead project.
I tried to get into a development team as the story writer and the composer. That was until I found out about their Lust for Greed. So I took it upon myself to try and orchestrate a team effort in starting a fund raising but small video game project.
I shot them an idea for a 2.5 D racing game called Mag Racers. Something that could easily have been done on android phones without being too complex, yet a quick and addictive game. But the problem was they wanted to create a WoW killer. I tried my best to manage these individuals to take it slowly one step at a time. But I guess the entire team was too concentrated on "making quick money on a simple wow killer." They almost resorted to making another Casino game for the phones as a quick money generator. And my god. They failed miserably for one reason: They wanted to use a generic MMORPG maker. Basically taking a bunch of stuff that was originally created for an MMO type of game and just adding in story bits and music.
That is why I stay the fuck away from it so much. I never take people's word for it unless they can show me their project in some form or another. I still have that blind trust in some people who come to me and ask if they can use my work in theirs. Only because they are established people who already have something going, and believe my work fits in like a puzzle piece. (Like Luminess, that puzzle game on NDS/PSV)
So I am not a competitor in the sense of an OST/SFX package deal composer. Just once again I happen to have some of my music in video game projects.
Thank-you to everyone who has helped me so far. I've learned a lot already from this post. I know I must seem pretty stupid haha.. But I guess there has to be a beginning... Anyways thanks everybody.. I'm working on projects constantly. In case I wasn't clear... (I honestly don't remember if I mentioned it) I stick to the classical side of things. Oh and I have another question. (again this will probably sound dumb) A few of you have mentioned the serious need for a demo reel type thing. I understand what it is obviously. But what is the best approach when making a demo reel? Like, just a list of songs, scoring to video, etc. And in what format should I show my demo reel to people.. On a website? Just in a folder or something? I'm sorry if all of this seems like common knowledge.. I really am new at this..
Also thanks AliceMako.. I now see how uneducated all of that sounded. And thank-you for showing me in a way that made me laugh... I needed it today... I will consider those tips though.
At 10/20/15 04:17 PM, AliceMako wrote:At 10/17/15 04:41 PM, WilliamEllisComposer wrote: I am an aspiring composer and I'm ready to start off my careerGood for you that's cool, tell me more.
You're going to have to keep looking then?
I just can't find those first jobs.
Oh excuse me, i thought you just said you couldn't find them at all, my bad.
They are either already taken
Wait a minute, you were ready to start a career and now you're not good enough, those are two different things.
or way above my skillset.
Oh those some people, is there anything they won't say?
Some people say
Well i'll just run that through the conversation intercom untill it sounds like "how do i get involved in a project."
I just would like some tips on how to get some work
At 10/20/15 04:48 PM, guilmonx wrote: I have seen a lot of examples of what you have portrayed in your own experience with some of the big titles (And if you were one of the people who saw the X-Men origins leak with the "ropes" quip being the best part of the film, then yeah I have heard some of the temp music before. But man when it comes to films they really like keeping viewers out.)
There was one time I had an opportunity to work with a dev team behind a simple little parkour game. But they never contacted me on skype to show me what they had in mind. They didn't mention anything for a story but the one picture I did get only showed me a still shot of the level design for that particular part; And a rough illustrative graphic for the character. I didn't really get any story, or mood from it. It just seemed like another parkour game to me. Which I myself have played many of. They just wanted some stock samples of rock music playing to a fast beat. At least that is what I garnered from the PM. But I later find out with his last PM on skype that they actually got banned from newgrounds.
Oh well.
However that example of completing a project is a good start on portfolio work. I can say that I myself as just another DnB artist, I at one time had the idea behind my own video game idea and started to create music for something that didn't even exist yet. I just imagined it in thin air. Now all of those harmonies and melodies are just a part of a dead project.
I tried to get into a development team as the story writer and the composer. That was until I found out about their Lust for Greed. So I took it upon myself to try and orchestrate a team effort in starting a fund raising but small video game project.
I shot them an idea for a 2.5 D racing game called Mag Racers. Something that could easily have been done on android phones without being too complex, yet a quick and addictive game. But the problem was they wanted to create a WoW killer. I tried my best to manage these individuals to take it slowly one step at a time. But I guess the entire team was too concentrated on "making quick money on a simple wow killer." They almost resorted to making another Casino game for the phones as a quick money generator. And my god. They failed miserably for one reason: They wanted to use a generic MMORPG maker. Basically taking a bunch of stuff that was originally created for an MMO type of game and just adding in story bits and music.
That is why I stay the fuck away from it so much. I never take people's word for it unless they can show me their project in some form or another. I still have that blind trust in some people who come to me and ask if they can use my work in theirs. Only because they are established people who already have something going, and believe my work fits in like a puzzle piece. (Like Luminess, that puzzle game on NDS/PSV)
So I am not a competitor in the sense of an OST/SFX package deal composer. Just once again I happen to have some of my music in video game projects.
Damn man, you got burned. But hey, we all get burned. My first project (late 2010) was a total flop. Worked for several months with this guy to help him with his RPG- ended up doing some art and stuff on top of just the assets. The guy randomly disappeared before finishing the game and has been missing for the past five years. Another project I was involved in was a zombie FPS with a decent kickstarter going, solid dev team, and everything, but after two weeks of being on the team, one of those big zombie games came out (this was like, 2013 I think). The guys got scared and abandoned the whole thing in just 24 hours. It keeps going and going.
The thing is, there's no reason to be afraid of doing custom material for games if you like doing it, just because you got burned a bit. I've been kicked from teams, had teams abandon before my eyes, had devs disappear. Just about every way you can imagine things going wrong, I've seen it happen. You will get burned many times, even once you become very good. I have some books that have interviews with film and game scoring pros and just about every one has a surprisingly recent story about getting rejected or burned somehow by a gig. You just gotta keep going- it's a trial by fire. If you back out, you will never get "good" gigs, but if you keep pushing through, keep going, you will eventually succeed and find some good projects with competent people. :)
