Irrational hatred of immigrants

[Jmayer20]

Irrational hatred of illegal immigrants

I do not understand why so many people (especially republicans) hate illegal immigrants. I mean what have they done that is so horrible. Sure they came into this country illegally but while maybe a little troublesome I fail to see why that warrants such hatred. I can understand why European countries are getting pissed off at the immigrants coming from the Middle East and North Africa because they riot, murder, and vandalize every time a picture of Muhammad is shown. But we don't have anything like that with the illegal immigrants coming into our country and yet with as much hate as there is for them one would think they were going around raping and eating our babies.

Here is my question to all you haters, have any of the illegal immigrants done anything bad to you personally?

Note: That I do not mean anything minor like they annoyed you.

[Jmayer20]

At 8/31/15 03:14 PM, X-Gary-Gigax-X wrote: WHO'S DOING THE RAKING??

Is this a poor joke or are you serious?

[MonochromeMonitor]

It's a combination of things. Personally I think xenophobia is manifestation of disgust in the behavioral immune system. We naturally fear the other, those who are not like us. It's clannish survival instinct. And personally I believe Republican (using the US definition) thought is more affected by fear than Left-wing thought. But it's also people who were born here who feel betrayed by their country, who think immigrants will take jobs and services they feel entitled to as "real Americans". All in all it's much more emotional than rational, as the benefits of naturalizing immigrants outweighs the cost compared to simply deporting them or leaving them in a limbo of half-citizenship. If we were in Greece or Italy's situation it would be very different, but for now Americans have little right to complain about illegal immigration. Very few people can seriously say they are negatively effected by it.

[Devsonx]

Speaking for myself, I don't "hate" illegal aliens in the abstract; nor am I xenophobic. My opposition to illegal immigration stems mainly from a concern for the general character of American citizenship and the community it helps to maintain. Progressive elites may bemoan the Us-versus-Them dichotomy, but it seems to be the case that the bonds of community are thicker and more meaningful when the members of society view each other as having something more than their abstract humanity in common. This isn't merely a problem of distance; though that is one of the chief impediments to any real sense of cosmopolitanism. Rather, I think human beings derive a great deal of meaning from their lives when they are able to set themselves apart from each other — as this tribe and that tribe, or this country and that country, and so on. Massive immigration, both legal and illegal, introduces large numbers of new members into society whose customs and traditions — religious, lingual, domestic, etc. — are not only dissonant with regard our own but are sometimes harshly antithetical to the principles we've established which we believe constitute not only good citizenship but also good living.

There is, for example, a persistent habit in Mexican culture of excusing incestuous relations between family patriarchs and young girls. On what grounds are we to object to this cultural idiosyncrasy? We certainly didn't object to their breaking our immigration laws. We didn't object to their refusing to learn the predominant language of our country. From the illegal immigrant's point of view, our objection to incest and pedophilia is suspiciously selective. And indeed it is selective! Despite all our lofty paeans to multiculturalism, and despite all our praise for the "mixed salad" over the "melting pot," we nonetheless continue to impose our own cultural mores on those whom we believe are somehow "wrong." This attitude is not so far removed from the allegedly "hateful xenophobia" held by conservatives. The two groups simply draw their lines in different parts of the sand; but the critical element is there all the same.

[Leotavius]

At 8/31/15 06:39 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: It's a combination of things. Personally I think xenophobia is manifestation of disgust in the behavioral immune system. We naturally fear the other, those who are not like us. It's clannish survival instinct. And personally I believe Republican (using the US definition) thought is more affected by fear than Left-wing thought. But it's also people who were born here who feel betrayed by their country, who think immigrants will take jobs and services they feel entitled to as "real Americans". All in all it's much more emotional than rational, as the benefits of naturalizing immigrants outweighs the cost compared to simply deporting them or leaving them in a limbo of half-citizenship. If we were in Greece or Italy's situation it would be very different, but for now Americans have little right to complain about illegal immigration. Very few people can seriously say they are negatively effected by it.

I totaly agree, this is why Donald Trump shouldn't be president. Compared to his million dollar business, being a leader of A Super Power country is way pass his pay grade lol. In all seriousness though, he doesn't seem to have a real plan for the country othen lets build a real big wall...im like really ... I could have thought of that. Any time they ask him specifically how are you going to do that Mr. Trump? He just completely avoids the question. Listen carefully next time he talks.. He doesn't like yo answer "how you going to?" Type questions. So please if your an American please ... I beg you... For the Love of God ... Or at least for a peace at mind... Don't vote for this man.. It isnt worth the castorphe he will unleash. This dude probably will make George Bush junior look like the best thing sense sliced bread

[DoctorStrongbad]

Through out time, nations have always been afraid and hated immigrants. This is not a new concept. People will always be wary of the unknown.

[Jmayer20]

To Devsonx

Nothing you said made a shred of sense. First off, could you show me your sources on incest being wide spread in Mexico because this is the first time I ever heard about that. Next, what the hell do you think American culture IS. In the core is the Constitution and surrounding it is a mixture of cultures from all over the world. Cultures from all over have mixed and enriched our culture. Just our food alone is a testament to this. Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, French, Irish, German, Italian, and so on.

You also implied that we could not enforce our laws because we would have to respect their cultural differences. Well this does not make any sense. Of course immigrants have to follow our laws. When you move to another country you have to follow the laws of that country. If the immigrant does NOT follow the laws then they are subject to the punishments that law brings just like any native citizen. However if the immigrant is being law abiding then I don't see any reason not to let them stay in the country.

There has always been resentment to new comers from the more bigoted Americans in the short run. However in the long run they integrate into our society and enrich it. Take the Irish for example, many Americans resented them especially for the fact that most of them were Catholics coming over to a country that was mostly Protestant. Despite this the Irish emigrants merged with our society and enriched it.

[FUNKbrs]

At 9/1/15 01:12 PM, Jmayer20 wrote: the Irish emigrants merged with our society and enriched it.

You do know those Catholic Irish immigrants were a major cause of the Civil War, yes? The irish are bascially a type of goblin. The word "Irish" even translates as "The Hateful People." My city's traditional Irish "Pinch" district (because the Irish were so skinny ) was historically a place of crime and debauchery.

[MonochromeMonitor]

You do know those Catholic Irish immigrants were a major cause of the Civil War, yes? The irish are bascially a type of goblin. The word "Irish" even translates as "The Hateful People." My city's traditional Irish "Pinch" district (because the Irish were so skinny ) was historically a place of crime and debauchery.

My great grandfather (who lived in South Boston) got the shit beaten out of him so badly by Irish Catholics that he refused to vote for Kennedy. Just an anecdote. But you're being an asshole. And I'd like to see a source for that etymology.

[thebitterroost]

Don't forget "THEY TOOK 'ER JERBS!!1!"

...except, they really didn't.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/14/alabama-immigration-law-workers
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/
http://business.time.com/2012/09/21/bitter-harvest-u-s-farmers-blame-billion-dollar-losses-on-immigration-laws/

And the list goes on.

[FUNKbrs]

At 9/2/15 01:39 AM, MonochromeMonitor wrote:

You do know those Catholic Irish immigrants were a major cause of the Civil War, yes? The irish are bascially a type of goblin. The word "Irish" even translates as "The Hateful People." My city's traditional Irish "Pinch" district (because the Irish were so skinny ) was historically a place of crime and debauchery.

My great grandfather (who lived in South Boston) got the shit beaten out of him so badly by Irish Catholics that he refused to vote for Kennedy. Just an anecdote. But you're being an asshole. And I'd like to see a source for that etymology.

"a letter dated February 14, 1865, regarding a party of Tories and negroes murdering, plundering, burning and raping women"

http://www.tn.gov/tsla/history/manuscripts/findingaids/1998-039.pdf

Source is powerfully legit, but the reference is somewhat tangential because you have to read the original letters which aren't always available online in transcript form.

But yeah, gangs of lawless Irishmen rapin'.

Also:

"A year later she was writing about the Confederate election. She believed if Oll was “old enough to fight for Jeff Davis you ought to be allowed to vote.” She reported that seven Tories voted in town, but “thank goodness none of them was akin to me."

http://www.tn.gov/tsla/history/manuscripts/findingaids/2014-020.pdf

"Upon retirement to private life in
New York City, Hamilton swiftly
became known as one of the best
lawyers in the country and was eagerly
sought after by clients as he handled
some of the most important civil and
criminal cases of the age and demonstrated
courage in the face of “controversy
and public hostility”13 by
representing detested Tories in efforts to
regain their property illegally confiscated
during the Revolution.14 He also
found time to help organize an antislavery
society and helped found a
school, later named after him, to
educate Native American students."

http://www.tba.org/sites/default/files/journal_archives/2014/TBJ1014.pdf

+++++

So basically Tories in the American Civil War were lawless disenfranchised Irish who lost their British property rights in the Revolution who just bascially hated all forms of government altogether and acted kind of like how the Tea Party does in the Republican Party. There were also generally deep ties between Irish Tories and Native tribal royalty, many of whom became the rich plantation owners of the South when it was more considered Frontier. The joke is generally "Oh, you're part Native? And how much Irish?"

For instance, John Ross, the last standing president of the Cherokee during the Trail of Tears, was 7/8 IRISH.

apologies for source flooding.

[MonochromeMonitor]

ETYMOLOGY. I mean I'd like to see a source for "Irish" meaning hateful people.

[FUNKbrs]

At 9/2/15 01:12 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: ETYMOLOGY. I mean I'd like to see a source for "Irish" meaning hateful people.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Irish

"Meaning "temper, passion" is 1834, American English "

/\ obviously "hate" and "temper, passion" is a more politically acceptable translation. Damn this Newspeak movement where no one will admit to feeling basic normal emotions such as hate.

Also see:

"Getting my Irish up"

"Definition of get one's Irish up in English:Cause one to become angry"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/get-one's-irish-up

"3.(US) Temper; anger, passion.
1834, David Crockett, A Narrative of the Life of David Crockett, Nebraska (1987), page 65: But her Irish was up too high to do any thing with her, and so I quit trying.1947, Hy Heath, John Lange, Clancy Lowered the Boom: Whenever he got his Irish up, Clancy lowered the boom.1997, Andrew M. Greeley, Irish Lace, page 296: The Priest is as fierce a fighter as I am when he gets his Irish up."
[seen lower; added for emphasis]
"A number of derogatory nicknames began to emerge, including "Irish confetti" for thrown bricks, and "Irish kiss" for a slap" (Wisegeek.com)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Irish

I could go on and on about "Irish temper" and link heaps of political cartoons depicting the Irish as tiny knife-wielding bandy-legged goblins from the 1800's, but you can't learn what you don't want to know.

[RydiaLockheart]

It's not the "immigrant" part that bothers a lot of people, it's the "illegal." Take my Ukrainian coworker for example. She got her U.S. citizenship three years ago. She filed the paperwork, paid the money, and waited. For people who broke the rules to suddenly have rights that she didn't just because of an executive order while she did everything correctly is a slap in the face. No line jumping. Wait your turn.

[Devsonx]

JMayer20,

In terms of anthropology and cultural studies, the widespread existence of incest and child molestation in Latin American countries is well known. I'm Hispanic myself, my father being a native of Central America who also spent several years living in Mexico. His observations and experiences there simply add to the anecdotal and empirical evidence gathered by professional researchers. The most recent pioneer in this area is Gloria Gonzales-Lopez whose forthcoming book Family Secrets: Stories of Incest and Sexual Violence in Mexico pulls back the veil on incest as a pervasive theme in Mexican culture. You can listen to her speak about her research here. You can find discussions of this topic scattered around the Internet, including a Washington Post article by Marianne Mollman (here) and an Economist article surveying the plight of Latin American children in general (here). If you have the means and willpower, you can also trawl the local newspapers printed in states with large populations of illegal aliens (California, New Mexico, Arizona, etc.). Discerning readers will note a pattern of incest and child abuse among these groups, something both human rights organizations and critics of American immigration policy have noticed.

You asked me what I think American culture is. That's a good question. You mentioned that the U.S. has expanded its cuisine to include dishes from around the world. That's certainly true, but it's not unique to the U.S. You can get Asian food in the U.K. just as surely as you can get an American hamburger in Japan. This isn't to say that food isn't a part of culture; I just don't think it's the most defining characteristic of culture in the fullest sense of the word. Rather, my view is that culture is the collection of habits, customs, traditions, beliefs, and even temperaments that are more or less shared by the greater part of a country's citizens. When we say, for instance, that the British have a dry wit, we don't of course mean that no Britons enjoy slapstick or physical humor. But we can justly make the dry wit generalization by taking a comprehensive view of the British population, including both its history and its present habits and mores. Aristotle believed that the Celtics tribes were naturally spirited but lacking in intellect; the Asiatic tribes, he believed, were just the opposite: full of intellect but so lacking in spirit that they were easily subdued by despotism. Montesquieu believed that the climate itself gives rise to unique cultural temperaments. There is some truth to these observations and our present-day word "culture" captures what it is Aristotle, Montesquieu, and others observed. Americans may have been molded in a number of ways by foreign influences, but we still possess certain characteristics that set us apart from others. Our nearly incomparable industry is, perhaps, the most obvious. But I think you are right in pointing to the U.S. Constitution, as well. Although the Progressive movement has since skewed and distorted our uniquely American brand of republicanism, the Constitution still contains the original architecture designed to house the principles we've since largely abandoned. (Anybody can create a sprawling government with nigh-unlimited authority; what made American republicanism unique was its limitedness in the service of protecting the people's natural rights.)

You pointed to the Irish as a particular group that helped to enrich American society. Can you tell me what you believe best illustrates Irish culture and then give me some specific examples of how it has enriched America?

[MonochromeMonitor]

First off, your initial use of "translates to" was erroneous. To clarify:
Etymology- (n) linguistic history. The origins of a word and how its meaning changed over time.
Translate- (v) to render the ideas conveyed in a source language through another language.
Both the wiktionary and the oxford dictionary links you posted attest that the etymological origins of "Irish" is Proto Indo-European "fat, fertile". The Oxford link also acknowledges the primary use to mean "Irish people" as well as the secondary use to mean "passion/temper" (not hateful as you noted dismissively), the later only attested since the 19th century. Just because the word Irish (and by extension "getting my irish up" can be used to refer to temperament doesn't mean the word itself "translates to" passion/temper/whatever. It also doesn't mean the word originated from "temper/passion", much less "the hateful people". The limited and now uncommon use of the word Irish to mean "temper/passion" only attests to the anti-Irish sentiment of the British. By the same fallacy you could say that the word "Jew" "translates to" "cheap", merely because this use of the word has been attested. The actual etymology of the word "Jew" is from the Hebrew word "Yehudi" (from the Kingdom/Tribe of Judah).