The not constructiv criticism comme

[willcamick]

Any animator or artiest can agree that criticism can sting. More when you have worked your but off to share something with the world. No matter where you are on the web criticism is just something you have to deal with. I use to be some one who would come on to sites like Newgrounds and make crude comments with little to any understanding of what it took to create something like the things I was shooting down. It was not until I felt the sting of hurtful comments about my work that it all came to light. So I got thinking, What if to be able to make reviews on other peoples art, You first need to submit something of your own? I think this would give some ppl a better understanding of the feeling you get.

Its just an idea but I would like to know what you guys think. :)

[ThePulp]

At 6/12/15 04:37 AM, willcamick wrote: Any animator or artist can agree that criticism can sting.

lol

[Radaketor]

That's stupid, you don't need to be an artist yourself to have opinion about art, you don't need to be a game developer to figure out if a game is shitty or not, you don't need to me a movie maker to see which movies are worth watching and which ones aren't.

At 6/12/15 06:00 AM, Vixuzar wrote: Horrible idea.
You should think of criticism as a reason for you to improve not something that would just sting you and discourage you

I agree with this part but i don't agree with what you said about taking ALL criticism into account, if someone reviews your work as "THIS FUCKING SUCKS" you shouldn't even take that into consideration, if that person didn't have time to explain to you why he thought your submission was bad then you shouldn't waste any time on him.

[Walter8484]

At 6/12/15 04:37 AM, willcamick wrote: Any animator or artiest can agree that criticism can sting. More when you have worked your but off to share something with the world. No matter where you are on the web criticism is just something you have to deal with. I use to be some one who would come on to sites like Newgrounds and make crude comments with little to any understanding of what it took to create something like the things I was shooting down. It was not until I felt the sting of hurtful comments about my work that it all came to light.

Hey we've all regretted things we've said/written/done. And it's rough realizing you just might not have been as awesome as you remember being. It's okay. Turns out everybody is "the bad guy" sometimes..

So I got thinking, What if to be able to make reviews on other peoples art, You first need to submit something of your own?

Two thoughts -

-No feedback sans submission diminishes participation.
-Seems a case of being able to dish it out but not take it

[willcamick]

At 6/12/15 06:00 AM, Vixuzar wrote: Horrible idea.
You should think of criticism as a reason for you to improve not something that would just sting you and discourage you i mean Would you review a shitty ms-paint stick man doodle with something like "OH THIS AWESOME 100/10" or something?
I guess not. so what i'm trying to say is that if you want to get rid of shitty criticism then just work on improving because of course improving your art, animations or whatever would actually help you in the future.
Also, you should take people's criticism into consideration even if it wasn't constructive, it's your job to make it look that way and to learn from it. Other wise, you wouldn't count as an artist. because a real artist would take all sorts of criticism into consideration instead of getting pissed off over it.

My point is more along the lines of should you have to submit something to Newgrounds to be able to comment on other peoples work. As a 27 year old person iv learned how to handle criticism. Im thinking more about the younger animators or artiest out there. Its hard to take "This f@cking sucks" into consideration and is far from motivational. Im not sure what you think "counts as an artiest" But to me any one who can put mind to paper is an artiest. Im not sure who you are referring to when you say "You" but the matter of the fact is people do get upset about it and thats perfectly normal. I just feel this kind of approach would lesser the amount of dumb comment.

[willcamick]

-No feedback sans submission diminishes participation.
-Seems a case of being able to dish it out but not take it

Yah I get that.

[ThePulp]

At 6/12/15 06:41 AM, willcamick wrote: as a 27 year old

Christ.

[Ragnarokia]

At 6/12/15 04:37 AM, willcamick wrote: Any animator or artiest can agree that criticism can sting. More when you have worked your but off to share something with the world. No matter where you are on the web criticism is just something you have to deal with. I use to be some one who would come on to sites like Newgrounds and make crude comments with little to any understanding of what it took to create something like the things I was shooting down. It was not until I felt the sting of hurtful comments about my work that it all came to light. So I got thinking, What if to be able to make reviews on other peoples art, You first need to submit something of your own? I think this would give some ppl a better understanding of the feeling you get.

To quote the comment Jim Sterling keeps making which I like to use. "People say they will like to see me do better, but when I know I can't do something I don't make it anyway and then try to sell it on Steam for money."
That sums up to basically say, you don't need to be an artist / writer / game developer / painter / cook / weapon manufacturer or anything to know what you are talking about. Sure it definitely helps to have some personal experience creating the content you are criticising but it is definitely not needed IF you are able to criticise without it which many people can do.

The "like to see you do better" type comments made to critics really misses the point and is childish.

Now on the basis of rude "criticism" which basically comes off as being a dick to the person but is protected since "it is criticism" isn't good. That is people just being dicks and trying to justify being dicks. But in the end of the day when you make content you do open yourself to criticism and it is best to take it on board. When you have people who like your stuff if someone does come around and treat you like shit those who like it may back you up. The worst thing you can do is to amplify it by commenting back to the person in the same dickish tone as that only attracts more like them.

I have had my fair share of dicks commenting on my stuff for the sole reason of being a dick. I either ignore them or if able to delete the comment if I take offense to it, as frankly in the end of the day if people are just going to be a dick they shouldn't expect to be treated like everyone else. Now actual constructive criticism I will leave up since it is constructive and helpful, and if you are going to be making money off your content (say Steam) then I wouldn't recommend deleting any comments even dickish ones unless they are just flat out abusive since people like to have a full picture of the stuff they are buying.

[jonthomson]

At 6/12/15 04:37 AM, willcamick wrote: So I got thinking, What if to be able to make reviews on other peoples art, You first need to submit something of your own?

Let's erase Siskel and Ebert from history because they've never directed a film.

[Ragnarokia]

Hey guys what's going on in this thread?

At 6/12/15 08:17 AM, Hoodie wrote: Because you've been praised your whole life for your horrible shitty existence and you shouldn't be. What the fuck have you even done with your life that deserves my praise? I will criticize and judge you till you get better, because that's how you fucking grow as a person. You don't grow by everyone jacking each other off, you grow by ACTUALLY FUCKING GROWING UP.

6/12/15 08:25 AM, Hoodie wrote:
Mysticvortex you are by far the most retarded person I've ever had multiple conversations with.
Seriously just shut the fuck up.

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 6/12/15 08:23 AM, mysticvortex13 wrote: he's not asking for his own sake. he's asking because he thinks little kids are going to cry.

I disagree, since this is seemingly in response to the all-caps review on his mlp toon.

[removes huge chunks of pointless squabbling from the thread]

[willcamick]

At 6/12/15 06:59 AM, mysticvortex13 wrote: if we did this we'd need to remove the scouting system so anyone could do it, which would essentially flood the portals with lame art created solely for the purpose of being able to review.

anyway, good luck with having more useful reviews in the future. i still love your fay movies.

You make a good point. I did't think of it like that but its true. And thank you ^_^

[Idiot-Finder]

At 6/12/15 10:02 AM, willcamick wrote:

At 6/12/15 06:59 AM, mysticvortex13 wrote: if we did this we'd need to remove the scouting system so anyone could do it, which would essentially flood the portals with lame art created solely for the purpose of being able to review.

anyway, good luck with having more useful reviews in the future. i still love your fay movies.

You make a good point. I did't think of it like that but its true. And thank you ^_^

Plus, the review have a system where you can flag some comments that are too abusive. No need to force people to submit crap just so they can review, it's pointless.

[ChiralAnomaly]

Constructive criticisms come in two ways:
If you are an experienced animator/author, you can give useful technical advice in your review. This will help the the author most directly.

However, this does not mean members who do not know how to use flash cannot give constructive feedback. They can nevertheless tell the author what they think about the submission in general and give feasible suggestions on how to improve other 'non-technical aspects' of the submission, such as the story-line, background music, so on and so forth, or they can even comment on the quality of the animations based on their experiences with other flash submissions.

After all, the target audience is the whole of Newgrounds, not just the games or movies contributors. Everyone should be allowed to comment on all flashes. It should also be noted that many great reviewers aren't artists.

Both forms of criticisms are undoubtedly very useful to the author. So if for some reasons those with no submissions aren't allowed to review, you will definitely lose a lot of 'constructive criticisms' and hence chances for authors to improve.

Same arguement applies to art and audio.

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 6/12/15 12:33 PM, Hoodie wrote:

At 6/12/15 09:49 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: [removes huge chunks of pointless squabbling from the thread]

My squabble...

Yeah but be thankful that you don't have to read pages of mysticvortex twaddle.

[karategangster]

You're shit you are

[Bit]

There goes basically every movie/game/art critic ever, and not just on Newgrounds.

You don't need to have made something to be able to give valid criticism of someone's work. That's not to say that all criticism is helpful, enough of it is that you shouldn't limit others' ability to give it.

Now, you could be like Phil Fish and throw a temper tantrum when someone says they don't like your work. Then you could cancel your next game, leave the industry, and complain about it on Twitter for the rest of your life.

But nobody wants to be a Phil Fish because that guy is a cunt.

[SatanBrain]

If you are faint-hearted, quit. NG is not for the faint-hearted.

[SuperBastard]

For starters, we'd either see this occur:

At 6/12/15 06:23 AM, Walter8484 wrote: -No feedback sans submission diminishes participation.

Or we'd have to resort to this:

At 6/12/15 06:59 AM, mysticvortex13 wrote: if we did this we'd need to remove the scouting system so anyone could do it, which would essentially flood the portals with lame art created solely for the purpose of being able to review.

NG has slowed a little over time, and there's already been a natural decrease in review participation. Stifling it even more would be unhealthy for the site.

That aside, (non-abstract) artwork tends to pull from observation. I'm including animation here as well, since motion is quite observable. You don't have to be an artist to observe; everyone who isn't blind has been making visual observations since their eyeballs finished developing. Hence, if something looks wrong to a person who hasn't honed their motor control enough to draw it themselves, their criticism is probably still valid.

The same goes for concepts, including aspects of a work like storyline, themes, humor, and more. To suggest that a non-artist shouldn't be entitled to an opinion on such things--when they have a creative mind of their own that they (hopefully) exercise every day--is actually rather pompous of you. You're challenging a person's right to think for themselves on the unrelated premise that they haven't practiced the mechanical aspect of producing work, while also asserting that they lack common intelligence.

And when you say "let's see you do better," or even imply it, you're admitting that correcting a fault in your work is too challenging for you. You're giving up before you even try.

At 6/12/15 11:28 AM, Sobolev wrote: After all, the target audience is the whole of Newgrounds, not just the games or movies contributors. Everyone should be allowed to comment on all flashes. It should also be noted that many great reviewers aren't artists.

Let's not forget the NG motto. You're suggesting censorship of the majority of users here. Newgrounds is not a place where censorship is welcome.

Finally, bad criticism ("this sucks!") may not help you improve your technical skill, but if you want to be successful you're going to have to learn how to filter golden nuggets of wisdom from the heaps of useless bullshit people are probably going to spew at you.

At 6/12/15 06:04 AM, ThePulp wrote:

At 6/12/15 04:37 AM, willcamick wrote: Any animator or artist can agree that criticism can sting.

lol

This is actually true. It sucks when you pour yourself into your work and then some random passerby casually pisses all over it, no matter who you are. However, that bad criticism is a good place to start learning to panhandle. At the very least, rude strangers on the internet will at help you build your callouses for when someone you respect comes and tears you down. That may never happen, but if it does and you're not ready for it it'll hurt a lot more.

Sorry for the wall of text here, but I really hate the "don't create? can't appreciate" attitude that some people develop. What you have isn't a clever idea. It's a superiority complex.

At 6/12/15 08:01 AM, Ragnarokia wrote: I have had my fair share of dicks

hurr hurr

[ChiralAnomaly]

I think it does not take a genius to figure out which reviews are blatantly abusive and need to be ignored and removed.

A 2 word "review" saying this sucks does not benefit anyone.

[HomicidalDragon]

At 6/12/15 04:37 AM, willcamick wrote: Any animator or artiest can agree that criticism can sting. More when you have worked your but off to share something with the world. No matter where you are on the web criticism is just something you have to deal with. I use to be some one who would come on to sites like Newgrounds and make crude comments with little to any understanding of what it took to create something like the things I was shooting down. It was not until I felt the sting of hurtful comments about my work that it all came to light. So I got thinking, What if to be able to make reviews on other peoples art, You first need to submit something of your own? - this i don't agree with at all.

Tom likes to give every artist a chance and he likes to feature and comment on new stuff
and help artists get noticed etc. I've read through some of his reviews. i think he really believes in helping out new artists and to be really mean about some one on their first shot at animating isn't right.
but if the critisizme is purely meant to HELP the individual in question, it should be welcomed as long as it isnt hateful or abusive. CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM is just that. if it weren't nice or meant to help the artist, it would be abusive nonsense.

people need to hear whats wrong and what can be done differently in order to improve. most, but not all first timers are usually not the greatest. but they get better and have more room to improve when people leave reviews.

yes some times what people say can come off rough and abrupt but its how the artist takes it. and they need to hear it.

giving an artist advice isn't crude or hurtful. unless you see some one say THIS IS SHIT, THERE ISNT ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT IT. thats hurtful . but if some one gives a list of things that are wrong, pointing out mistakes and what can be done to make it BETTER, there isn't anything wrong at all.
so i think its down to you being overly sensitive and taking review comments the wrong way