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should holocaust denial be a crime

5,192 Views | 82 Replies

simple yes or no

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 21:46:49


No.

Freedom of speech.

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 21:55:36


yes

there's a difference between freedom of speech and denial of cold, hard facts. like, when it comes to opinions? fire the fuck away, but you can't deny things that actually happened, that there is cold, hard proof of... hell, some of the people who were interned in those camps are still alive today, there are people still on this planet who lost friends to the holocaust, there are images of mass graves, written german documents from the time which prove that this was happening- documents of the experiments conducted on live (unwilling) test subjects. there is hard evidence that it happened... honestly? i'm all for freedom of opinion, however the holocaust isn't a matter of opinion.

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 21:58:31


At 9/27/14 09:45 PM, mrexcellent2190 wrote: simple yes or no

If you put people in jail or fined them for voicing their opinions, you would be no better than Hitler himself. People have the right to freedom of speech, even if its for or against something you like or dislike. The one thing that society should not take away from any man is their own thoughts and beliefs.


"You're a bit of a ghoul - aren't you?"---ZeroAsALimit.

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Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:02:34


Why would it be

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:04:19


No. It should only be a crime if they harm others with their actions. Is merely having a strange belief a crime or should it be a crime? I don't think so. But if someone acts on an incorrect belief in a manner that harms others, should that be a crime? Absolutely! And beliefs should not excuse actions.

If you believe people are made of marshmallows, that's weird, but doesn't hurt anyone. No crime. If you then take it a step further and start skewering people to roast them over a fire to make smores, at that point lock you up for life and throw away the key.


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Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:06:35


At 9/27/14 09:55 PM, Freaki-boy92 wrote: yes

there's a difference between freedom of speech and denial of cold, hard facts. like, when it comes to opinions? fire the fuck away, but you can't deny things that actually happened, that there is cold, hard proof of... hell, some of the people who were interned in those camps are still alive today, there are people still on this planet who lost friends to the holocaust, there are images of mass graves, written german documents from the time which prove that this was happening- documents of the experiments conducted on live (unwilling) test subjects. there is hard evidence that it happened... honestly? i'm all for freedom of opinion, however the holocaust isn't a matter of opinion.

Yeah! Darwin should have been jailed for his unpopular theories, too! Let's not forget Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, and every other famous scientist. We had evidence to the contrary, therefore they should not have been allowed to say anything to which contradicted our current models.

Really, though. It doesn't work like that. Nobody should be jailed for believing unpopular theories.

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:07:39


no, but a slap on the head should be just fine


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Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:09:30


I almost forgot about this video, and couldn't find it until now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgcrtvomXoI


I HДVЗИ'T ЭДTЗЙ SLICЭD ЬЯЗДD SIИCЭ I ШДS TЩЗLVЭ

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At 9/27/14 10:06 PM, Bit wrote:
At 9/27/14 09:55 PM, Freaki-boy92 wrote: yes

there's a difference between freedom of speech and denial of cold, hard facts. like, when it comes to opinions? fire the fuck away, but you can't deny things that actually happened, that there is cold, hard proof of... hell, some of the people who were interned in those camps are still alive today, there are people still on this planet who lost friends to the holocaust, there are images of mass graves, written german documents from the time which prove that this was happening- documents of the experiments conducted on live (unwilling) test subjects. there is hard evidence that it happened... honestly? i'm all for freedom of opinion, however the holocaust isn't a matter of opinion.
Yeah! Darwin should have been jailed for his unpopular theories, too! Let's not forget Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, and every other famous scientist. We had evidence to the contrary, therefore they should not have been allowed to say anything to which contradicted our current models.

Really, though. It doesn't work like that. Nobody should be jailed for believing unpopular theories.

Are you seriously justifying counter-productive behavior like denying something like the holocaust existed which is present in history books, witness accounts, and the damn camps themselves which many are still up today by comparing it to the lack of knowledge of modern science?

I bet you're one of those people who think "muh FIIIIIIIIIIIRST amendament makes 'ME allowed to say i hate gays 'n blacks on A&E" or thinks they can make threats to people because of it.


filler text

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:22:09


At 9/27/14 10:13 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: Are you seriously justifying counter-productive behavior like denying something like the holocaust existed which is present in history books, witness accounts, and the damn camps themselves which many are still up today by comparing it to the lack of knowledge of modern science?

I bet you're one of those people who think "muh FIIIIIIIIIIIRST amendament makes 'ME allowed to say i hate gays 'n blacks on A&E" or thinks they can make threats to people because of it.

I'm saying that a theory should not be illegal only because it is unpopular. It may be incorrect to claim that the Holocaust did not happen, but making such a claim is not a crime. It's just another (widely disproved) theory. If we arrest Holocaust deniers then we need to arrest the conspiracy theorists, flat Earth theorists, and Scientologists, too.

And saying that you hate blacks and gays shouldn't be a crime, either. You can have whatever opinion you want as long as you're not interfering with the rights of others. Having the right to say such a thing does not exempt you from the social consequences of doing so, though. You definitely won't be a popular person if you say that you hate gays and black, but you should not be arrested for it.

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:39:12


At 9/27/14 10:06 PM, Bit wrote:
At 9/27/14 09:55 PM, Freaki-boy92 wrote: yes

there's a difference between freedom of speech and denial of cold, hard facts. like, when it comes to opinions? fire the fuck away, but you can't deny things that actually happened, that there is cold, hard proof of... hell, some of the people who were interned in those camps are still alive today, there are people still on this planet who lost friends to the holocaust, there are images of mass graves, written german documents from the time which prove that this was happening- documents of the experiments conducted on live (unwilling) test subjects. there is hard evidence that it happened... honestly? i'm all for freedom of opinion, however the holocaust isn't a matter of opinion.
Yeah! Darwin should have been jailed for his unpopular theories, too! Let's not forget Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, and every other famous scientist. We had evidence to the contrary, therefore they should not have been allowed to say anything to which contradicted our current models.

Really, though. It doesn't work like that. Nobody should be jailed for believing unpopular theories.

the thing with darwin, galileo, copernicus, newton and other scientists is that they had suitable evidence to back up their hypotheses, which is what made them from hypotheses into theories. a theory is a hypothesis backed up by enough data to outweigh the existing theory and the data supporting it.
in other words, you're misunderstanding the meaning of the word theory.
thing is, hypothesizing about history is fine right up until you get to the point where there are enough contemporary records to render hypothesizing invalid and useless.

it's not a case of unpopular opinions, or shit not fitting current models, it's a case of this happened and there is undeniable proof that it did happen- stuff that will not be supplanted at a later date because of a misinterpretation of currently available data, because the current data is so plainly and clearly pointing in a single direction in such a way as it cannot be misinterpreted.

i do not think that new ideas in science should be illegal, as new ideas are what keeps science going, new hypotheses are what makes science wonderful, especially when they get proven and become fully-fledged theories, however new ideas about (relatively) recent history, where the documentation from the time still exists, is just kinda.... toxic, y'know?


At 9/27/14 10:22 PM, Bit wrote:
At 9/27/14 10:13 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: Are you seriously justifying counter-productive behavior like denying something like the holocaust existed which is present in history books, witness accounts, and the damn camps themselves which many are still up today by comparing it to the lack of knowledge of modern science?

I bet you're one of those people who think "muh FIIIIIIIIIIIRST amendament makes 'ME allowed to say i hate gays 'n blacks on A&E" or thinks they can make threats to people because of it.
I'm saying that a theory should not be illegal only because it is unpopular

1: Saying the holocaust didn't happen isn't a theory, at best it's a hypothesis.

2: It shouldn't be illegal because it's unpopular, it should be illegal/criminalized because it's denying the event that happened as a result of years of racism, intolerance, and an anti-productive culture. Denying when events like the Holocaust happened basically gives room for other people to do stuff along the lines of "HA, HA LET'S MAKE INTOLERANT JOKES AND BE TOTAL RACIST SHITHEADS OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND SAY NEVER NOTHING EVER HAPPENED UNTIL IT BOILS DOWN TO ANOTHER GENOCIDE LOL".

It may be incorrect to claim that the Holocaust did not happen, but making such a claim is not a crime. It's just another (widely disproved) theory. If we arrest Holocaust deniers then we need to arrest the conspiracy theorists, flat Earth theorists, and Scientologists, too.

None of those apart from Scientology are actually counter-productive in terms of, you know, people being weeded out in some hate-induced campaign of "MAKING A PURE RACE", and even then, Scientology was nowhere near the Holocaust or any other genocide.


And saying that you hate blacks and gays shouldn't be a crime, either.

It isn't iirc, I was just referring to the Duck Dynasty incident.

You can have whatever opinion you want as long as you're not interfering with the rights of others. Having the right to say such a thing does not exempt you from the social consequences of doing so, though. You definitely won't be a popular person if you say that you hate gays and black, but you should not be arrested for it.

...Except denying that mass genocides happened, if enough believed it, would lead to having an excuse to spread hate.


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lol freaki posted about that guy misusing the word theory before i did


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Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:48:06


At 9/27/14 10:45 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: lol freaki posted about that guy misusing the word theory before i did

tbh, i'm glad you spotted it as well, grizzly, because it /really/ pisses me off the fact that the word theory is misused so widely. Like, to the point where people misusing theory is one of my pet hates. not pet peeves, pet /hates/

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:52:46


At 9/27/14 10:39 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: ...Except denying that mass genocides happened, if enough believed it, would lead to having an excuse to spread hate.

Doesn't matter. Having a belief, no matter how twisted, wrong, or etc that belief may be, in and of itself should not be illegal. But if you harm others based on a belief, at that point it very much becomes illegal.

It's the action, and not the belief, which should be illegal.

Ignorance spreads, and it's bad, but there's not really much that can be done about that other than try to educate people. But ultimately it's up to each individual person what they believe or not.

There are groups I absolutely think should not exist (racist hate groups, etc...) but as long as they don't do anything illegal that you can pin on them, there's not really a lot that can be done. Just having incorrect beliefs in itself shouldn't be illegal. That's the general American view of things.


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Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 22:55:19


No. Everything should be free to question, no matter how silly it is. I hear that there are actually laws against Holocaust denial in Europe, which is crazy to me. I think when you try to prevent discussion of an unpopular opinion, you're actually perpetuating it.


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Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 23:03:43


Didn't even know holocaust denial was a thing.


At 9/27/14 10:39 PM, Freaki-boy92 wrote: Stuff

I used scientists as an example because they are a group which has often been met with serious opposition with regards to their ideas. Yes, there is substantial modern evidence which proves many of their hypothesis, but many of them had highly controversial ideas in their time. People could have justified arresting Darwin because 'evidence' against evolution can be found in the Bible. That was the limit of most peoples' understanding of life because it was all of the evidence most people needed. Certainly people would have agreed that his ideas were 'toxic'.

No modern ideas should be censored for the same reason. Even though most people may believe the contrary, the idea itself is not necessarily incorrect. Making it illegal to present new ideas - even ones which have been disproved in some respect - is completely counterproductive. If the idea is wrong then it will be disproved again, but it should never be illegal to present an idea.

At 9/27/14 10:39 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: 2: It shouldn't be illegal because it's unpopular, it should be illegal/criminalized because it's denying the event that happened as a result of years of racism, intolerance, and an anti-productive culture. Denying when events like the Holocaust happened basically gives room for other people to do stuff along the lines of "HA, HA LET'S MAKE INTOLERANT JOKES AND BE TOTAL RACIST SHITHEADS OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND SAY NEVER NOTHING EVER HAPPENED UNTIL IT BOILS DOWN TO ANOTHER GENOCIDE LOL".

Why should it be illegal, though? And what makes you think that a very, very small group denying a historical event will bring about another genocide?

None of those apart from Scientology are actually counter-productive in terms of, you know, people being weeded out in some hate-induced campaign of "MAKING A PURE RACE", and even then, Scientology was nowhere near the Holocaust or any other genocide.

I don't think we're on the same page. I'm saying that, in principle, Holocaust denial is just as ignorant and harmful as any religious or conspiracy group who believe that history is incorrect, and feel the need to 're-educate' people using lies.

...Except denying that mass genocides happened, if enough believed it, would lead to having an excuse to spread hate.

But they don't. In fact, Christianity has done quite a bit more to spread hate than Holocaust deniers. Especially hate for women and homosexuals.

At 9/27/14 10:48 PM, Freaki-boy92 wrote:
At 9/27/14 10:45 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: lol freaki posted about that guy misusing the word theory before i did
tbh, i'm glad you spotted it as well, grizzly, because it /really/ pisses me off the fact that the word theory is misused so widely. Like, to the point where people misusing theory is one of my pet hates. not pet peeves, pet /hates/

There is a non-scientific definition of the word 'theory', but I'm not here to argue semantics.

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 23:10:07


At 9/27/14 10:52 PM, NeonSpider wrote:
At 9/27/14 10:39 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: ...Except denying that mass genocides happened, if enough believed it, would lead to having an excuse to spread hate.
Doesn't matter. Having a belief, no matter how twisted, wrong, or etc that belief may be, in and of itself should not be illegal. But if you harm others based on a belief, at that point it very much becomes illegal.

Except harmful beliefs like for example neo-nazis denying the holocaust lead to harmful actions 90% of the time, that's why they have things like neo-nazi rallies in the first place to discuss and promote their hate.


It's the action, and not the belief, which should be illegal.

So you're saying that KKK rallies to just name one example are alright by themselves, even though they initially fuel and get the members going in blood rush on their quest to go kill or harm African Americans.

Ignorance spreads, and it's bad, but there's not really much that can be done about that other than try to educate people. But ultimately it's up to each individual person what they believe or not.

ok


There are groups I absolutely think should not exist (racist hate groups, etc...) but as long as they don't do anything illegal that you can pin on them, there's not really a lot that can be done. Just having incorrect beliefs in itself shouldn't be illegal. That's the general American view of things.

Yet the US, in terms of the developed world has some of the strongest open racism and is the one of the countries with the least amount of social rights in the developed world, especially in the south. What a coinky-dink.


filler text

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 23:13:26


Are you a jew?


Pretend not to care about anything, but be bothered by everything.

You may be fast on the roads but it's no use on the track.

ScaryPicnic made me do it.My letterboxd.

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Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 23:15:58


At 9/27/14 09:45 PM, mrexcellent2190 wrote: simple yes or no

no, however...

I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it.


*nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*


At 9/27/14 11:13 PM, Slint wrote: Are you a jew?

no what does that have to do with anything ? as far as the theory that holocaust denial leads to other forms of hate your proving them right bro at least in my opinion idc about it being illegal either way but don't hate on ppl. individuals should have the right to say whatever this is jus a poll I'm doing to pass time

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 23:27:12


At 9/27/14 11:13 PM, Slint wrote: Are you a jew?

Using the term either mockingly of hatefully. The point is you are like super banned right now. And before anyone who isn't banned asks, no I am not Jewish.


I have nothing against people who can use pot and lead a productive life. It's these sanctimonius hippies that make me wish I was a riot cop in the 60's

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At 9/27/14 11:07 PM, Bit wrote:
At 9/27/14 10:39 PM, Freaki-boy92 wrote: Stuff
I used scientists as an example because they are a group which has often been met with serious opposition with regards to their ideas. Yes, there is substantial modern evidence which proves many of their hypothesis, but many of them had highly controversial ideas in their time. People could have justified arresting Darwin because 'evidence' against evolution can be found in the Bible. That was the limit of most peoples' understanding of life because it was all of the evidence most people needed. Certainly people would have agreed that his ideas were 'toxic'.

No modern ideas should be censored for the same reason. Even though most people may believe the contrary, the idea itself is not necessarily incorrect. Making it illegal to present new ideas - even ones which have been disproved in some respect - is completely counterproductive. If the idea is wrong then it will be disproved again, but it should never be illegal to present an idea.

My tv shows are about to come on in a bit so I'm just gonna leave this to the other guy.


Why should it be illegal, though? And what makes you think that a very, very small group denying a historical event will bring about another genocide?

1:"It should be illegal/criminalized because it's denying the event that happened as a result of years of racism, intolerance, and an anti-productive culture. Denying when events like the Holocaust happened basically gives room for other people to do stuff along the lines of "HA, HA LET'S MAKE INTOLERANT JOKES AND BE TOTAL RACIST SHITHEADS OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND SAY NEVER NOTHING EVER HAPPENED UNTIL IT BOILS DOWN TO ANOTHER GENOCIDE LOL"."

2: Don't you think the root of the hate that starts genocides starts out small? It might not in the immediate future, but over time, some really anti-productive beliefs like racism or "hate never led to any mass genocide" can grow in number, to where it can become a mass-cultural view/belief. Scientology is an example of this where the religion spreads from just small starting group meetings to over hundreds of thousands of members. Memes like "dick-neck" originally started from this small website and spread to become a temporary internet fad.


I don't think we're on the same page. I'm saying that, in principle, Holocaust denial is just as ignorant and harmful as any religious or conspiracy group who believe that history is incorrect, and feel the need to 're-educate' people using lies.

I don't know about you but I don't think in terms of lives that saying the Earth is flat or that there was some conspiracy loophole in some past event is as harmful as believing that hate didn't lead to a mass and brutal genocide of at least around 20 million people. The two former that I listed can be harmful but I don't think nearly as the latter.


But they don't. In fact, Christianity has done quite a bit more to spread hate than Holocaust deniers. Especially hate for women and homosexuals.

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you're going off topic now. What does Christianity have to with anything in this argument?


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At 9/27/14 11:27 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote:
But they don't. In fact, Christianity has done quite a bit more to spread hate than Holocaust deniers. Especially hate for women and homosexuals.
I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you're going off topic now. What does Christianity have to with anything in this argument?

Christianity is often used as justification for hate. Look at the Westboro Baptist Curch's interpretations. They picket the funerals of soldiers with signs saying "God hates fags". Less extreme Christian groups still teach that homosexuality is immoral, and that women are subservient to men.

None of which would be a justification for making Christianity illegal.

Yet many people are Christians who believe "God hates fags" and that women should stay at home, while a very, very small number of people believe that the Holocaust never happened.

If everything that could incite hate and bigotry were illegal, that would include most mainstream religions, most forms of patriotism, and would result in the arrest of nearly the whole population of Earth.

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 23:40:49


I think it's fucking stupid how people can flat out deny the holocaust, but I think they have the right.


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hey guys tell me what you think of this piece of legislation . And whether you like it or not ? yes no? again just yes no. This outlaws holocaust denial and many other things in the eu what do you think? Effective or ineffective?

http://www.avoiceformen.com/suggested-reading/eu-to-ban-anti-feminist-speech/

Response to should holocaust denial be a crime 2014-09-27 23:58:59


At 9/27/14 11:10 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: So you're saying that KKK rallies to just name one example are alright by themselves, even though they initially fuel and get the members going in blood rush on their quest to go kill or harm African Americans.

What are you going to get them with? What crime can you charge them with? Many of these groups are very good at knowing how to walk that fine line to remain within legal grounds. See Westboro Baptist for example.

You could say "well make this or that illegal" but that just pushes the line and they'll still see how far they can go while still remaining on the legal side of that line.


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the link i posted describes how the eu will stop all speech not just hate speech basically anybody that questions the educational system