curiosity on war crimes

[Korriken]

I've heard a lot of "omg Israel is committing war crimes!" and "Israel is committing Genocide!"

and I sit back and wonder, "Is it not a war crime when Hamas launches rockets towards Israeli cities with the intent and hope that the rockets kill civilians?"

Last time I checked, deliberately targeting civilian populations was not only a war crime, but a crime against humanity.

and yet I see so little outrage. However, when Israel goes in, begins blowing up rocket launchers and killing civilians in the process, people go nuts over it.

Someone explain this to me, because I simply don't get it.

[Warforger]

1. I think this is a difference of understanding. People who are anti-Israel are not pro-Hamas and they don't associate being pro-Hamas with being pro-Palestine. So for you to say that they think that "Hamas firing rockets is not a war crime!" demonstrates the crucial difference in understanding people have.
2. Israel doesn't necessarily target area's that have indication of being full of terrorists. Right now Gaza has no power because Israel blew up their power plant. There's no evidence or any indication that Hamas had any people inside firing rockets at Israel. This is the same with a UN school which repeatedly sent out its coordinates to tell Israeli forces not to fire at it. They did anyway and killed a whole bunch of Palestinian civilians. It seems to be awfully convenient that Hamas fighters are everywhere.
3. Hamas claims the issue at hand is that the whole territory is in blockade, so from their perspective it's less that they're being aggressors and more that they're trying to break out of a prison.
4. The most important issue; in a war it is not the families at home that suffer the most, it is not the generals who suffer the most it isn't even the soldiers of both militaries which suffer the most; the people who are caught in the fighting suffer the most. It's been the same since the dawn of time. People who did nothing to warrant a war receive the worst of it. Israel has both alot of defenses and a weak enemy who is incapable of doing that much damage to them. Gaza has next to no defenses and a strong enemy who is capable of annihilating them from existence. So we both know whose going to take more casualties.

[Korriken]

You missed the point entirely. It's a simple question. Is Hamas firing rockets at Israeli cities considered a war crime?

[Korriken]

Allow to me clarify. I've been able to confirm that Hamas firing missiles from civilian areas IS a war crime, but I can't seem to find much on them firing the missiles at civilians, which I can only assume is a war crime.

[November]

Israel is not being judged by the same rules and standards as other countries because it's a Jewish state, and therefor should always be blamed.

Simple example: Civil war in Syria; 250,000 people dead since 2011, and it has been confirmed that chemical weapons were put to use, however none of those people died because of Israel taking some kind of action so nobody cares.

It's been said many times (perhaps not here) that even if Israel had given free candy to the children in Gaza, it'd still be accused of some kind of 'war crime' or 'diabetic assault' or whatnot.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/4/14 09:50 AM, Korriken wrote: Allow to me clarify. I've been able to confirm that Hamas firing missiles from civilian areas IS a war crime, but I can't seem to find much on them firing the missiles at civilians, which I can only assume is a war crime.

You are right BOTH sides are committing war crimes.

However, the circumstances of each country doing so are very different. The circumstances don't abslve Hamas et. al., but it does explain the glaring imbalance in attention.

The differences come in many areas. First, let's look at the who of the sitution.

Hamas: A small motley band of militants, with little money and almost a complete inability to compete with any nation in a conventional war. Hamas is ruled by a bunch of quasi-terrorists with little regard for the rules of war and the civilized world.

Israel: A big boy Democratic nation with a great deal of power and a large military. Israel is also one of the big boys who is expected to know better and to act better. (In short, Israel is the mature adult of the two, yet it seem to love to bring itself down to the level of its opponents instead of rising above.)

Now, let's look at the what.

Hamas: Lots of rockets into Israel, very little damage and very little success.

Israel: full scale bombings, high levels of success, high levels of civilian casualties.

Finally, and perhaps one of the issues that stings people on both sides the most, let's look at their relations with the US.

Hamas: Only recognized by the US for the purpose of ending the conflict. Otherwise, considered an Al Qaeda type terrorist organization. Their location in and tensions with Israel are the only things keeping drone strikes from targetting them.

Israel: Abnormally and quite perplexingly (I say this as they provide the US almost nothing in return) close with the US. The US provides tons of political support as well as massive economic and monetary support.

This last one has a tendency in many people's minds, and rightfully so, to impute the childish actions of Israel onto the US.

Note: My post is not meant to raise Hamas and demean Israel. I equally hate both sides. The Israel conflict is little different than the Syria conflict where there is no good guy and no clear winner for the region, just half of America is too fucking stupid or too blinded by religion to see it.

[Light]

I agree with Camaohusky.

Both sides are fucking up, but Israel should know better. It's a nation-state that is much more powerful than its opposition but still continues to commit war crimes. Is Hamas committing war crimes? Probably. Is Israel committing war crimes? Definitely. Just because one side is engaging in war crimes, it does not excuse the depravity of the other's. That's shitty logic.

Israel doesn't even try not to kill civilians. It's reckless in its attacks on Hamas.

[orangebomb]

I think that we're all in agreement that both sides are fighting dirty and committing war crimes (toothless as the charges usually are) but the main difference is that Hamas is nothing more than a militant group, whereas Israel is a nation-state with a powerful army. Because militant/terror organizations don't wear a country's colors or adhere by said country's rules, they get away with far more crimes against humanity than most nation-states could ever try to pull off who are supposed to follow the rules.

Think of it this way, Hamas is a pee-wee football team (armed with rockets), and Israel is the NFL team (armed with everything else) and they play under NFL rules. Naturally, not only are they playing a totally unbalanced field, but said NFL team is naturally going to be penalized for running circles around the pee-wee team, which needless to say it would be very criminal. (Not the best comparison, but still)

[Lumber-Jax12]

First let me say this, since last i checked 60 Israeli soldiers have been killed, if all this war has been is random indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas how then do you think their deaths came about? A seizure caused by the realization of how overly immoral their actions are?

Or return fire of the enemy they've set out to destroy. In such a war where the aggressor has such sophistication, technology and combat prowess how then are their men dying by such numbers?

Clearly they're facing opposition at least a third of fourth of their own. So my counter is this, since no media outlet has bothered to separate combatant deaths from civilians how many of those 2k dead do you truly believe were just "innocents caught in a cross-fire"?.

Now im not saying the numbers are all Hamas but considering that the last report puts a sizable portion of deaths on males age 21-27. I don't think its a stretch to make that a good 1/3 or 1/4 have been militants too stupid to realize the beast theyve thrown themselves against.

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/

Now digest this as well. Hamas is the legal recognized government of Palestine, according to the Palestinians themselves. While I'm sure the elections were rigged, but at the same time people of violence don't rise to power by violence alone.

One man with a gun can not force his rise to power, consent does. The reality is that yes a select few pick up weapons against Israel but to paint them as a fringe group and the civilians in the middle as completely blameless is also naive.

If thats the case does no blame rest on the germans and southerners for a select few actions?

I highly doubt Hamas puts their weapons of which im sure they have few in any home. What makes more sense to force an innocent to harbor these weapons at gunpoint, or find like minded individuals willing to keep them for a greater cause?

Yes there have been hundreds killed who are completely innocent and those deaths I lament, but don't be so naive as to put Israel on the same level of morality as Hamas.

WW2 has been considered the most moral and honorable of wars, and yet still the number of civilians deaths have been placed at the millions, many of whose blood is on the allies hands.

Another thing, the amount of restraint that Israel has applied, and yes they have applied it, else gaza would not exist if they had none, would never be shown by Hamas.

And I'd also wager that if such wanton destruction of Israel were to occur we'd see celebrations in their streets, similar to the ones during 9/11. In case y'all forgot about that little tidbit about these many "innocents".

[Korriken]

At 8/4/14 10:54 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

Note: My post is not meant to raise Hamas and demean Israel. I equally hate both sides. The Israel conflict is little different than the Syria conflict where there is no good guy and no clear winner for the region, just half of America is too fucking stupid or too blinded by religion to see it.

The whole thing is just a shitty situation all around. As far as the US aiding Israel, I think the US goes with "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy.

100 years ago, had Israel existed, it could just turn the Gaza Strip and the West into rubble and no one would have blinked an eye.

The whole situation reminds me of when I was in school. The punks taunt, they jeer, they throw punches at you, but you do nothing until you realize there is only 1 way to end it. You try talking to them, you try asking them to leave you alone, then you demand them leave you alone, you even try going to the principal to get them to leave you alone and the principal basically shakes his head and tells you there is nothing he CAN do about it. Then you pummel the little bastard and the school administration want to jump all over you for it.

If Hamas truly wants to win a PR war, they should just make peace with Israel, stripping Israel of any reason to maintain the restricting on imports into Gaza, as well as any other countermeasures to Gazan violence.

If Israel continues them, they can cry and scream and make the world hate Israel more than it already does.

Whether Israel is wrong or right to go in and attack military assets in civilian areas, I can't really say. Hamas's rocket seriously suck and the bulk of them either land well short of Israel's cities and in some desolate field, or worse, don't even make it out of Gaza and end up killing their own people. Problem is, it would only take 1 rocket landing in the right spot to kill a whole lot of people. The Iron Dome system isn't foolproof either.

One thing I can't seem to figure out is what people expect Israel to do. Hamas fires crappy rockets from civilian areas towards Israeli cities. Israel can't just sit there and pretends the rockets aren't being shot at them. But they also apparently go in and stop it either.

Here's the kicker, what would you do in this situation?

[LazyDrunk]

At 8/5/14 03:00 AM, Korriken wrote: Here's the kicker, what would you do in this situation?

Hollowed skulls of my enemies illumined with candles.

[Korriken]

At 8/5/14 07:07 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

Hollowed skulls of my enemies illumined with candles.

I personally use the hollowed skull of my enemy for a cereal bowl. Still, I don't think that solution would go over too well with the rest of the world.

[LazyDrunk]

At 8/6/14 10:43 AM, Korriken wrote:

At 8/5/14 07:07 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

Hollowed skulls of my enemies illumined with candles.

I personally use the hollowed skull of my enemy for a cereal bowl. Still, I don't think that solution would go over too well with the rest of the world.

Candles are easy to make ;)

[MrPercie]

At 8/4/14 08:28 PM, Lumber-Jax12 wrote: And I'd also wager that if such wanton destruction of Israel were to occur we'd see celebrations in their streets, similar to the ones during 9/11. In case y'all forgot about that little tidbit about these many "innocents".

Stop right fucking there, don't tell me your that fucking insulted by some shitty 9/11 celebrations that these people should be bombed, seriously, fuck off.

[Feoric]

At 8/4/14 09:35 AM, Korriken wrote: You missed the point entirely. It's a simple question. Is Hamas firing rockets at Israeli cities considered a war crime?

It very clearly is:

"Hamas's latest claim that its rocket attacks against Israel are not war crimes is factually and legally wrong, Human Rights Watch said today.

On January 27, 2010, Hamas authorities in Gaza released the summary of an internal report that tried to clear itself and other Palestinian armed groups of laws-of-war violations during last year's hostilities with Israel. The report says that rocket attacks into Israel only targeted military objectives, and that civilian casualties were an unintended result.

"Hamas can spin the story and deny the evidence, but hundreds of rockets rained down on civilian areas in Israel where no military installations were located," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Hamas leaders at the time indicated they were intending to harm civilians.

...

The balance of power and the politics of a conflict are never justifications for a warring party to target civilians, Human Rights Watch said. Violations of the laws of war by one party do not justify violations by the other side.

The locally manufactured Qassam and longer-range Grad rockets launched by armed groups in Gaza also have no guidance system and are therefore inherently indiscriminate when fired at populated areas. Firing them into densely populated areas of Israel is a violation of the laws of war.""

Shooting rockets at civilians is definitely a war crime, and it's also not a very effective war crime in terms of getting a desired outcome from the perspective of Hamas. I'm more concerned about the human factor and not the legalese, though. Dead Israeli civilians is bad and not acceptable. However, there's simply an order of magnitude more dead Palestinian civilians. I think a lot of people believe that Palestinians would stop shooting rockets indiscriminately if the Israeli state stopped bombing them, but honestly after this last operation it's pretty clear Israel has no intention of stopping their continuous assault on them, in particular those in Gaza. The situation is just completely out of control. I'll never support Hamas (or any militant organization that defends attacks on civilians), yet at the same time I can see why they do what they do -- they don't have any other cards to play. It's hardly shocking. Both Hamas and the IDF are violent reactionary entities, but they do not share the same degree of culpability equally. The truth is not in the midle.

The last time I checked there has been a total of 22 Israelis killed by rocket attacks carried out by Hamas in the last decade (an average of 2 per year). Israel's counterattacks are wildly disproportionate. During this last round of fighting alone, the IDf managed to kill ~2,000 people (70-80% of which were civilian). The IDF also deliberately demolished essential infrastructure (including bombing the last function power plant) on top of maintaining a blockade which greatly contributes to the humanitarian crisis. While both can be said to have committed war crimes, the scale is not remotely even and falsely equivocating the two is a concern.

[Lumber-Jax12]

At 8/7/14 04:24 PM, MrPercie wrote:

At 8/4/14 08:28 PM, Lumber-Jax12 wrote: And I'd also wager that if such wanton destruction of Israel were to occur we'd see celebrations in their streets, similar to the ones during 9/11. In case y'all forgot about that little tidbit about these many "innocents".

Stop right fucking there, don't tell me your that fucking insulted by some shitty 9/11 celebrations that these people should be bombed, seriously, fuck off.

No, clearly you picked one point and stuck with it.

First lets get one thing clear, there are millions of innocents in gaza and its unfortunate they've been killed. But don't be so naive to think that there is a strong faction in the area thats vehemently anti-western to the point that yes they do celebrate our deaths as awe inspiring.

When you're born in and raised to hate the west and want to kill all the people who live in it. Thats a pity, but you don't lament the fact and sympathize to the point of inaction. I don't blame a wolf for killing sheep thats what it does and all it knows to do but its still being put down.

And for the love of god before some other idiot gets hung up on this. Im not saying wipe it off the map. What im saying is there is a severe radical element in the region, and while yes many are innocent, its very relative in certain situations where a ten year old one day is a suicide bombing jihadist the next.

Again, end the conflict, kick out Hamas, and work to better the lives of these unfortunate people is my overall message.

[MrPercie]

At 8/8/14 01:00 AM, Lumber-Jax12 wrote: Again, end the conflict, kick out Hamas, and work to better the lives of these unfortunate people is my overall message.

Maybe more money should be spend trying to aid the people, at any cost, than missiles blowing them up.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

heres a idea just let them duke it out and forget war crimes and "human rights violations" and let this shit be done with its been going on for what 60-70 years now? just let one side eradicate the other.

[Light]

At 8/8/14 08:14 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: heres a idea just let them duke it out and forget war crimes and "human rights violations" and let this shit be done with its been going on for what 60-70 years now? just let one side eradicate the other.

We get it, you don't give a shit about the lives of other people or the deaths of innocent civilians.

By the way, this:

just let one side eradicate the other

is, by definition, advocating genocide. Stop being a shitty person.

[Light]

At 8/8/14 08:34 AM, Light wrote:

At 8/8/14 08:14 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: heres a idea just let them duke it out and forget war crimes and "human rights violations" and let this shit be done with its been going on for what 60-70 years now? just let one side eradicate the other.

We get it, you don't give a shit about the lives of other people or the deaths of innocent civilians.

By the way, this:

just let one side eradicate the other

is, by definition, advocating genocide. Stop being a shitty person.

Oh, and I couldn't help notice that you're a supporter of AIPAC. I'm going to assume, then, that you support genocide of the Palestinians since you already said "just let one side eradicate the other" and "forget war crimes and 'human rights violations.'"

Please go away.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 8/8/14 08:34 AM, Light wrote: We get it, you don't give a shit about the lives of other people or the deaths of innocent civilians.

By the way, this:

just let one side eradicate the other

is, by definition, advocating genocide. Stop being a shitty person.

ohh, mister high and mighty, there are enough people on this planet to the point there is always going to be conflict once you grow up and realize that talking about your fweelings and trying to compromise isnt going to work all thats left is force. and if it ends this bullshit land grab and stop the killing all together for a while so be it ever since the fall of the USSR there have been what a dozen or so genocides? and no one gives a shit because the possibility of interfering won't cause WWIII, now its just heart throbs wo bitch about it to make themselves feel good.

[Feoric]

At 8/8/14 08:41 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: ohh, mister high and mighty, there are enough people on this planet to the point there is always going to be conflict once you grow up and realize that talking about your fweelings and trying to compromise isnt going to work all thats left is force.

lmao

Alright, Tony. We'll clean up and make some room on this planet starting with you first.

[Feoric]

At 8/8/14 01:00 AM, Lumber-Jax12 wrote: Again, end the conflict, kick out Hamas, and work to better the lives of these unfortunate people is my overall message.

How is kicking out a democratically elected government a good way to help people? When did this ever do anything good?

[Camarohusky]

At 8/8/14 08:34 AM, Light wrote: We get it, you don't give a shit about the lives of other people or the deaths of innocent civilians.

By advocating for a stop inviolence when there is no possible stop in the continued violence is either the ultimate in niavte or a backward way of wanting either one of these genocidal maniacal powers to actually rule the area.

There is more wisdom to Tony's point that you give him credit for.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 8/8/14 10:54 AM, Camarohusky wrote: There is more wisdom to Tony's point that you give him credit for.

wait there is?

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 8/8/14 08:38 AM, Light wrote:

is, by definition, advocating genocide. Stop being a shitty person.

Oh, and I couldn't help notice that you're a supporter of AIPAC. I'm going to assume, then, that you support genocide of the Palestinians since you already said "just let one side eradicate the other" and "forget war crimes and 'human rights violations.'"

Please go away.

I support Israel as a country and its right to exist and defend itself, which what its doing right now. and on my statement yes let them if it stops this bullshit once and for all, if you cite Human Rights or War crimes when you do it yourself (talking to you Hamas) then they're just bitches, Hamas started this shit going up to israel punching it in the face and once israel got back up and kicked the shit out of gaza they went crying acting like a victim when they started the bullshit, not to mention Hamas has broken what is it now 2 or 3 of the proposed ceasefires in the last month?

dont get me wrong, make one area in Gaza Protected by NATO neither Hamas or Israel can touch it then let the two children go at it whoever win gets keeps. or just overthrow the Palestinian Authority and annex the palestinian territories as israeli land I don't give a shit just end it all ready.

[Feoric]

At 8/8/14 11:10 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Hamas started this shit going up to israel punching it in the face and once israel got back up and kicked the shit out of gaza they went crying acting like a victim when they started the bullshit,

I remember when Hamas started this, which resulted in Israel justly launching a massive offensive into Gaza in response to Hamas officially kidnapping and killing those israeli teenagers.

Oh wait, except that didn't actually happen, because Hamas didn't actually do it. Whoops!

not to mention Hamas has broken what is it now 2 or 3 of the proposed ceasefires in the last month?

lol

Stop pretending like you know what you're talking about. You clearly don't have a fucking clue.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 8/8/14 11:19 AM, Feoric wrote: I remember when Hamas started this, which resulted in Israel justly launching a massive offensive into Gaza in response to Hamas officially kidnapping and killing those israeli teenagers.

Oh wait, except that didn't actually happen, because Hamas didn't actually do it. Whoops!

true they didn't but that doesn't also take account of launching rockets in israel and the tunnels. and I dont doubt there is a better source but buzzfeed has been know to be unreliable, and just because a few of them came out to doubt it doesn't make it true.

Stop pretending like you know what you're talking about. You clearly don't have a fucking clue.

I have one monitor on for feeds and a friend who lives in Israel, and its been documented Gaza has violated how many of those humanitarian ceasefires?

[Feoric]

At 8/8/14 11:49 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: I have one monitor on for feeds and a friend who lives in Israel, and its been documented Gaza has violated how many of those humanitarian ceasefires?

I could make one giant effortpost but I think this should suffice: you're rhetorically asking how many times Hamas violated ceasfires when you yourself in this very post admit you are unsure whether or not Israeli's casus belli was completely fabricated or not. That's pretty funny.

Shit, man, this is so easy. I'm not even bringing up the fact that Israel has a 70-80% civilian death rate, or the fact that they're trying to drive a wedge between Hamas and Fatah to break up the unity government, or all the bombed UN schools and hospitals and infrastrucutre or all the dead children or the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Get a new monitor with a different feed and a friend that lives in Gaza.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 8/8/14 12:59 PM, Feoric wrote: I could make one giant effortpost but I think this should suffice: you're rhetorically asking how many times Hamas violated ceasfires when you yourself in this very post admit you are unsure whether or not Israeli's casus belli was completely fabricated or not. That's pretty funny.

no proof it was fabricated for all we know it was or wasn't Hamas but who else would have motive hmmm? besides those rockets and tunnels are a violation of law and Israel's sovereignty.

Shit, man, this is so easy. I'm not even bringing up the fact that Israel has a 70-80% civilian death rate, or the fact that they're trying to drive a wedge between Hamas and Fatah to break up the unity government, or all the bombed UN schools and hospitals and infrastrucutre or all the dead children or the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Get a new monitor with a different feed and a friend that lives in Gaza.

oh wow they have a 70/80 death rate its a heavily populated are so dense if yu took a piss you could hit three people. as for the schools placing rockets launching sites or hell maybe storing them IN THE SCHOOL or maybe even a oh say a HOSPITAL is a clear violation of rules of war and those sites are considered legitimate targets regardless of collateral damage since their status of immunity is now compromised.

its not a ethnic cleansing its eliminating militants threatening Israeli sovereignty. and I dont need new monitors I just got these 400 dollar ones like 6 months ago, I mean I have three of them cmon!