Hi everyone. So, I've noticed that many of the same individuals tend to get onto the front page of the audio portal a lot. It's becoming harder and harder for the "Underdogs" of the site to get attention. I've noticed that my own tracks have steadily got less and less hits since early 2013 or so. But, well, I'm not that good...lol. Anyway, I've been trying to think of ways to get more exposure for people that are either new to the site or just not as experienced as some of the "elites." Especially since NGADM has become increasingly more competitive over the last couple of years (which, in many ways is a good thing, of course). Perhaps we could have another contest once a year that tries to shine the light on people besides Envy and Waterflame (who are awesome artists that have personally inspired me very much, btw). Maybe we could have a contest for just teenagers, or just people who joined the site within the last 1 or 2 years or something. We could even have a contest for people who have less than 100 fans (at the start of the contest, at least). ;) What do you guys think? Is it too exclusive? Too ambitious? Should I be posting this under "Ways to Improve the Audio Portal," Purgy? Probably...but whatever! Now that you've read this rather not-so-concise proposal, tell me what you think, NGAC! :D
"Knowledge is freedom; guilt is knowledge; freedom is guilt." --- "I hate logic; it must die." --- Formerly "TheDoor6"
At 7/18/14 10:03 PM, TheDoor6 wrote:
I like the idea. The 'kickstarter' contests like this are very useful for the community. If this will start out current year, I may able to join. Or perhaps, if you're tight on contest's prize, I definitely want to sponsor it. I really want to return something to the community. There are quite a few powerful elites among the new users too! Elite by skills, not fans. And I really want these guys get famous quickly on here, because they deserve everything for their awesome skills.
Let's do eet!
I've always had this dream of a "self-hosting" NGADM, where anyone who didn't get in the NGADM could participate, and scores would be determined by your peers - that is, after you finished your piece you'd be assigned like 6 other pieces to listen to (obviously not your opponents), and the votes you gave would contribute to their eventual score.
Literally anyone could host this if there was enough interest.
[6,11,4,10,2,10,-68,5,15,-68,16,4 ,1,-68,-2,1,15,16,-67].map(function(v){ return String.fromCharCode(v + 100) }).join(""); // updated for web 2.0!
I like the idea. However, has there ever been a NG sponsored contest that had entry restrictions? I honestly don't know. I guess the biggest issue is a sense of exclusivity. If the contest did happen though, I would certainly support, and maybe even participate in it.
Slightly off topic: What ever happened to the old Underdog thread? I know it got closed due to it becoming full of mostly self promotion, but I always figured it was going to be restarted. Wouldn't mind seeing it return (without the self promotion). I always thought it was a good idea, and remember finding a good number of artists because of it.
Sounds like wishful thinking. Some of the best musicians on here are teenagers, and it would be tricky setting up a criteria that wouldn't offend talented musicians who have yet to get exposure on this site. Where do you draw the line? What's good enough? What's young enough? Would this contest merely expand the handful of recognized musicians on this site to a couple of handfuls? There's a lot of work that goes into being noticed, and I'm sure every person you have in mind has paid there dues and are at the top for a reason. If you want to be there and play with the big dogs, you have to step up. Don't believe in favorites or politics because you're only making yourself hesitant. Don't make some contest for "lesser known musicians" .just so you can say hey look what I can do, your only stating that you can't hang with everyone else. The world of music is brutally competitive, if your not ready to steal someone's thunder or have someone say you suck, you have to get there.
I just want to point out that front page isn't as glamorous as you believe it is. You'll gain maybe a couple hundred views, a couple of reviews, and then a shit ton of 0 bombing.
I've had my stuff on the front page numerous times and this has been my experience nearly every time.
It's flattering, but not much else.
Also, this isn't really an audio portal improvement, it's more of a community activity, which is perfectly fine as its own thread.
Audio/BBS Mod
News: Bye bye Skype - Music: Tonight Will Be The Night- Art: Kira
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My track Chaos Confined got around 9k views from being on the front page. I like the idea of a underdog competition but if you do it, make sure it's before my 94 fan count becomes 100... :P
Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Come check me out! Veteran REAPER user.
At 7/19/14 12:48 AM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: I just want to point out that front page isn't as glamorous as you believe it is. You'll gain maybe a couple hundred views, a couple of reviews, and then a shit ton of 0 bombing.
So? In 9 cases out of 10 all the 5s come from the author himself anyway because the system is flawed as fuck. The only audio on this site that gets coverage (and therefore votes) is stuff that's either been in a popular game/movie or frontpaged, which isn't an easy task. You have to be either friends with a moderator or get chosen out of the recent audio uploads, which is sorted by an easily inflatable and in some cases deflatable (since once again nobody gives a shit about the audio portal) score that helps you get picked. Score means nothing and only a complete retard would want some slightly higher arbitrary fake score number over actual listens and feedback.
At 7/19/14 06:36 AM, lasse wrote: So? In 9 cases out of 10 all the 5s come from the author himself anyway because the system is flawed as fuck.
This is not a thread for bitching about the system, this is a thread about getting underdogs more exposure via a specialized contest. It's a good idea, if a little rough around the edges, and I will not allow people to derail it with "The system is broken" bitching.
Audio/BBS Mod
News: Bye bye Skype - Music: Tonight Will Be The Night- Art: Kira
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I like the idea, but you'd have to exactly define the term 'underdog' first. Under what conditions is someone allowed to join?
I forgot to mention before, I am actually currently playing caretaker of the UnderdogList account.
Note, I am taking care of it... I am not running it. The idea was I would hold onto the account until someone wanted to take over it full time, however... No one ever stepped forward. And I only even just remembered I had it when this thread was posted.
If anyone is interested, feel free to shoot me a PM. Keeping in mind... I'm not likely to hand the account over to just anyone, I have to be confident that you'll maintain the account and not destroy or abandon it. If no one takes it over, I may at the very least get another Underdog Thread going (And self-nominations would no longer be allowed), I will not, however, maintain the list via newsposts like the previous owner did.
Audio/BBS Mod
News: Bye bye Skype - Music: Tonight Will Be The Night- Art: Kira
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I can't believe this has gotten such a huge response! :D Thanks guys!
It seems to me like making a contest for teenagers is the worst idea of the 3 proposed ones. A lot of the "elites" here are teenagers (Step, Echo, etc.). Maybe we could split the contestants into 3 groups (one under 100 fans, one teenagers, and one who joined the site after January 1st, 2013), and then the winners of those groups who face off in an epic final! :D That way, we're excluding the least number of people as possible. However, there are a few problems with this: people could be pretending to be younger than they are or could create alternative accounts so that they fit into the Under 100 Fan Club or have joined the site after a certain date. I'm also concerned that we're starting this contest a little too late in order to finish it before school starts up again for a lot of people (including myself). However, I do like @Johnfn's idea that the members of the contest outside of a certain group would judge the submissions of that group. Tell me what you think, NG! I think we should start this contest AT THE LATEST on the 27th of July (if we're doing it at all). I'll give until then for some ideas to float around and the format to be solidified, but we really need to get started on this thing NOW! :O
Thanks for your support, NG Audio Community! Let's make this awesome! ^^
"Knowledge is freedom; guilt is knowledge; freedom is guilt." --- "I hate logic; it must die." --- Formerly "TheDoor6"
I don't think age should be a criterion in this case, as it's totally unrelated to how 'popular / underdog' one is. The X-amount of fans seems to be the most reasonable one of those options, as it can be seen as a direct measure of one's recognition.
You should also probably work out some of the details (e.g. will there be a fixed theme? Will there be multiple rounds? Will there be any prizes? etc.)
I agree that age might not be the best criteria. Different people start out at different ages and progress at different paces.
I agree with number of Fans and maybe Join Date, though.
it sounds like a good idea to me, there is a lot of guys on here that dont get enough recognition. you would just need to think of a fair way to do it.
At 7/19/14 12:48 AM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: I just want to point out that front page isn't as glamorous as you believe it is. You'll gain maybe a couple hundred views, a couple of reviews, and then a shit ton of 0 bombing.
This isn't really true. I gained more followers in a week on frontpage then I did over months of normal submissions. It's probably the best way on the site to get more followers.
Maybe you don't notice because you already have so many fans. :P I always thought it was a shame that popular artists seemed to always get the front page, when they were the last people that needed it.
[6,11,4,10,2,10,-68,5,15,-68,16,4 ,1,-68,-2,1,15,16,-67].map(function(v){ return String.fromCharCode(v + 100) }).join(""); // updated for web 2.0!
I'm a little skeptical about this. What lines need to be drawn, and what musical skill level do we keep this to?
Personally speaking, I entered the NGADM 2 years ago as a literal underdog... no particular success apart from a front page or two... and with horrible mixing that even @Back-From-Purgatory couldn't live down. Still got third place.
Now, this is NG. Which is assumed to have the crème de la crème of animation, games, possibly even music. I want us to live up to that. There is always advice given in the ADM that would help. But more importantly, if someone doesn't enter the ADM, he needs to be told what's missing in his piece. Or what needs to be made better.
So really I don't know what to suggest here. Apart from, an underdog competition could be seen as too inclusive and more like a "consolation prize team," which I don't want this to be.
At 7/19/14 07:18 AM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: This is not a thread for bitching about the system, this is a thread about getting underdogs more exposure via a specialized contest. It's a good idea, if a little rough around the edges, and I will not allow people to derail it with "The system is broken" bitching.
that doesnt invalidate my point
I dont have the feel that only known artists are prontpaged. There are always a lot of people who get frontpaged who are quite new and also it often seems not to be a problem if they are already superstrong composers or well known. MY stuff also was frontpaged quite early even i had no fans, my production quality was just ok but the composition itself got a chance.
Also being frontpaged is - like BackFromPurgatory said - a double-edged sword. from the ... dont know 10-12 times i was frontpaged 2 tracks were hit really often (17k and 12k) while the rest at the end was between 1k and 2k or even below 1k. In my experience its not the frontpage itself which makes a lot of views - the weekly or monthly feature to me seems to be far more interesting if you want to get many views - but maybe its just my estimation.
Concerning the contest idea: I know some of the judges from the former years and can say, that there were many artists who really got far in the contest who were totally unknown. They had their chance. Even there would be a underdog competition: Who can define who a underdog is? The best 2 composers on this portal that i know only have 5 and 32 fans. But they would totally kill anyone because they are just no underdogs :D
Maybe the main problem meanwhile is that there are only very few contests running. In former times there were much more of them :(
@SoundChris @Troisnyx I respect your opinions that current contests/systems expose underdogs as well, but as I see it, you're both talking about the Newgrounds of 2 or 3 years ago. It was easier to get attention then imo. Now, I believe it is different. I think the NGADM is an extremely exciting competition that produces a lot of awesome content, but I think a lot of the same people as last year have the best chance to get further in it. I think the most exciting and rewarding competition would be one in which users gain experience through the competition without having it before. Imagine the reaction if, say, Katy Perry auditioned for American Idol (or Britain's Got Talent, or Arab Idol, or whatever). It would be RIDICULOUS! This potential contest may be exclusive, but it will create some new "elites" on Newgrounds that will continue to add fresh faces and variety to the community. Isn't that what we want? To expand the community and integrate as many people as possible? I say YES! :D
"Knowledge is freedom; guilt is knowledge; freedom is guilt." --- "I hate logic; it must die." --- Formerly "TheDoor6"
At 7/19/14 04:06 PM, TheDoor6 wrote: @SoundChris @Troisnyx I respect your opinions that current contests/systems expose underdogs as well, but as I see it, you're both talking about the Newgrounds of 2 or 3 years ago. It was easier to get attention then imo.
The only reason was that @Chronamut was able to host the monthly Audio Contests, but I only was able to take part in one -- and not long after, it fell apart. So there's not much difference then as there is now.
If anything, last year held the opportunity of opportunities, with the Audio Portal 10th Anniversary contest, which was announced on the forums. I created a playlist for it, to show the original entries and those that the contestants did, so it was well attended.
Now, I believe it is different. I think the NGADM is an extremely exciting competition that produces a lot of awesome content, but I think a lot of the same people as last year have the best chance to get further in it.
That's because it is the NGADM, a competition for the best among the new and old. It doesn't matter how much time you've had to make yourself known; if you have a piece that can inspire highs and lows, you're in.
I think the most exciting and rewarding competition would be one in which users gain experience through the competition without having it before. Imagine the reaction if, say, Katy Perry auditioned for American Idol (or Britain's Got Talent, or Arab Idol, or whatever). It would be RIDICULOUS! This potential contest may be exclusive, but it will create some new "elites" on Newgrounds that will continue to add fresh faces and variety to the community. Isn't that what we want? To expand the community and integrate as many people as possible? I say YES! :D
Ho hum, here we go again. I was no bloody Katy Perry when auditioning for the NGADM, and while we had Waterflame, Bosa, Camoshark and Samulis, they lost to a relatively new artist named Kor-Rune. I say new, because he had hardly been known, at least not by a long stretch. We had etherealwinds and johnfn last year, who were also relatively unknown -- they came third and first respectively.
You want integration into the community? Integrate by knowing what works in music, and what doesn't.
I agree that there need to be more contests, to give everyone a sporting chance. But an underdog competition running in conjunction with the NGADM is only going to be seen as a second-rate contest for the consolation prize brigade, as compared to the most prestigious contest of the year. It's going to smear people who take part in it, rather than help them.
The best help I can give anyone is to encourage them to be the best at what they do. And that's what the ADM is about.
At 7/19/14 02:56 PM, SoundChris wrote: Also being frontpaged is - like BackFromPurgatory said - a double-edged sword. from the ... dont know 10-12 times i was frontpaged 2 tracks were hit really often (17k and 12k) while the rest at the end was between 1k and 2k or even below 1k. In my experience its not the frontpage itself which makes a lot of views - the weekly or monthly feature to me seems to be far more interesting if you want to get many views - but maybe its just my estimation.
The audio vote-based Weekly Best is far more hazardous for 0 bombing than the mod-picked frontpage. It's also better promotion than the frontpage, like you said. There is gain and there is lost. I get some hits from frontpage a couple of times. But all of those hits added together couldn't even equal a hit from Weekly Best. Which I only got it twice. I guess different people have different experience.
That's the thing, and it's the root of all evil. The best promotion tool is vote-based, which is also the most corrupted piece.
Concerning the contest idea: I know some of the judges from the former years and can say, that there were many artists who really got far in the contest who were totally unknown. They had their chance. Even there would be a underdog competition: Who can define who a underdog is? The best 2 composers on this portal that i know only have 5 and 32 fans. But they would totally kill anyone because they are just no underdogs :D
I think you and @Troisnyx pointed the main problem of this underdog contest (which I hadn't thought about). How do you define who's skilled and who's not in the underdogs? What's the skill limit to be defined as underdog? If we apply all these into the contest, it will be extremely discriminated and pure favoritism against everyone. The contest's rule itself is flawed.
Maybe the main problem meanwhile is that there are only very few contests running. In former times there were much more of them :(
I miss NAC and MAC. :( Only if BrokenDeck and Chronamut were best friends...
At 7/20/14 12:32 PM, KatMaestro wrote:At 7/19/14 02:56 PM, SoundChris wrote: Also being frontpaged is - like BackFromPurgatory said - a double-edged sword. from the ... dont know 10-12 times i was frontpaged 2 tracks were hit really often (17k and 12k) while the rest at the end was between 1k and 2k or even below 1k. In my experience its not the frontpage itself which makes a lot of views - the weekly or monthly feature to me seems to be far more interesting if you want to get many views - but maybe its just my estimation.The audio vote-based Weekly Best is far more hazardous for 0 bombing than the mod-picked frontpage. It's also better promotion than the frontpage, like you said. There is gain and there is lost. I get some hits from frontpage a couple of times. But all of those hits added together couldn't even equal a hit from Weekly Best. Which I only got it twice. I guess different people have different experience.
That's the thing, and it's the root of all evil. The best promotion tool is vote-based, which is also the most corrupted piece.
If it's any indicator, when the revised version of Capital of Soot got frontpaged, I was immediately made a target for a series of 0-bombs, the result of which is still visible now. I'm not the only one who reported this, but as many have said before me, it is rather commonplace, unless one has a strong enough following to counter its effects. Even still, sometimes people try to circumvent this.
The same would apply for anyone who happens to wind up top on the charts, or elsewhere on the Audio Portal.
Concerning the contest idea: I know some of the judges from the former years and can say, that there were many artists who really got far in the contest who were totally unknown. They had their chance. Even there would be a underdog competition: Who can define who a underdog is? The best 2 composers on this portal that i know only have 5 and 32 fans. But they would totally kill anyone because they are just no underdogs :DI think you and @Troisnyx pointed the main problem of this underdog contest (which I hadn't thought about). How do you define who's skilled and who's not in the underdogs? What's the skill limit to be defined as underdog? If we apply all these into the contest, it will be extremely discriminated and pure favoritism against everyone. The contest's rule itself is flawed.
If I were judging this on a purely musical level, like in the case of various examination boards (Comhaltas, Trinity Guildhall, ABRSM...) I'd perhaps be able to estimate the person's musical skill level based on his mastery of various parts of the music... melody, chords, rhythm, etc. But even that is no indicator of what an underdog is. Someone having the equivalent of Grade 2 could excel against someone with the equivalent of a Grade 8, or heck, even a music diploma, if he manages to inspire the right nuances with his music. (I say equivalent, because not everyone here takes graded exams.)
It's a lot of factors combined -- which can be divided into two, namely musicality and production. Which could be mastered by people, new and old. And that's on precisely those grounds that the NGADM judges make their decisions. Of this, I have first-hand experience (as do all the participants). I cannot stress that enough.
Maybe the main problem meanwhile is that there are only very few contests running. In former times there were much more of them :(I miss NAC and MAC. :( Only if BrokenDeck and Chronamut were best friends...
Maybe, just maybe, for the sake of the Audio community, they've just gotta try put past grievances or differences aside. There comes a point where too few opportunities = just too few.
I often browse the portal looking for "underdogs" to play their music on my radio show. ...And other things....
Very often, though, music is pretty subjective to the listener. A lot of times, a musician thinks they are better than they are, too. ( myself included) haha.
I've also ran into amazing songs, but can't play them on my show due to poor mastering, or generally poor soundinding mixes or qualities. Which I know isn't their fault. We are all struggling musicians, making due with what we have. Exposing them to veteran musicians for even tips and reviews would be nice...
Anyways, if some kind of criteria could be set for something like an underdog contest / thread or whatever, I think that would be great. I'd utilize it as much as possible for multiple "things"
At 7/20/14 01:50 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote: I often browse the portal looking for "underdogs" to play their music on my radio show. ...And other things....
Very often, though, music is pretty subjective to the listener. A lot of times, a musician thinks they are better than they are, too. ( myself included) haha.
I've also ran into amazing songs, but can't play them on my show due to poor mastering, or generally poor soundinding mixes or qualities. Which I know isn't their fault. We are all struggling musicians, making due with what we have. Exposing them to veteran musicians for even tips and reviews would be nice...
Anyways, if some kind of criteria could be set for something like an underdog contest / thread or whatever, I think that would be great. I'd utilize it as much as possible for multiple "things"
I want the Underdog Thread to be brought back. Each person has so many others to suggest, and many kinds of music to bring to the table. Part of my initial recognition was because Sorohanro had recommended me on the previous active Underdog Thread, and so I find the same could happen for a lot of others whose music is particularly excellent, even if they're lacking in production quality.
We would have no holds barred on who we think are underdogs, just people who are either new or deserve more recognition (which is much less strict than the potential criteria for a contest). Let the forum-goers and listeners then decide for themselves.
At 7/20/14 02:01 PM, Troisnyx wrote:
I want the Underdog Thread to be brought back. .
We would have no holds barred on who we think are underdogs, just people who are either new or deserve more recognition (which is much less strict than the potential criteria for a contest). Let the forum-goers and listeners then decide for themselves.
I would support anything. I like to expose people as much as I can! Hahaha.
imo newgrounds window of super popular artists was from 2003-2009, as evidenced by the greatest hits of all time charts on newgrounds (with a few noteable exceptions)
I only ran the NACs because the MACs had basically died because it was run as a collective, and whenever that happens you tend to have issues.. people just didn't maintain it.
So I ran it for a year.. people seemed to like it although the audio staff hated me for it because it wasn't newsgrounds staff or audio mods running it - with increasing hostility towards me I ran it for another year, with increased "threats" that I was going to be replaced - so I stopped after the second year - a few contests seemed to persist here and there but then ultimately that, just like everything newgrounds seems to try, died.
I have offered to bring back the NACs, none of you seemed to care, and thus neither do I.
also contrary to popular opinion - me and brokendeck still ARE the best of friends - I am just not here much anymore, and he i busy doing his thing. I wasn't THRILLED when his involvement got him modded, as it brought back Rucklo memories, but unlike rucklo I had matured since then and didn't try to hold onto the chaos and make his life a living hell like I did Rucklo.
IF newgrounds really wanted it I don't see why it can't be done. The NAC discussion thread exists - look it up and post in it. If noone does then I can only assume that most of you would rather just complain than actually have a solution.
also just to add one more thing - imo you have to have a contest held by someone that is more or less known. In the end while the audio mods still didn't LIKE me, they did have to admit that I was at least the ONLY newgrounder who had consistently run 24 consecutive audio contests - at least with me you always get consistency.
Unfortunately the NGS store no longer exists - tom used to award store credit to the winners of the NAC - I don't know what you guys award now for contests.
Also if I am gonna get the same snarky bullshit from the audio mods I got last time then I'll just fuck right off - I did what I did to help newgrounds, not to listen to peoples butthurt skippy remarks because I had taken their piece of the spotlight pie.
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