I'd see if you're from a middle-eastern country, where women have few rights, and you tried to fight against it. But in countries like America, what's the point? Women have the same rights as everyone else, they don't get treated badly. Are they just trying to be more powerful then men? Even though that won't happen.
At 7/9/14 12:31 PM, Avery wrote: they don't get treated badly.
Oh brother.
Would you like to pull up a chair?
[I've been wandering round but I still come back to you]
Well you're wrong about most of those things you just said but the whole subject has been blown out of proportion lately
You look nice today.
This guy brutally sodomizes me.
Cereal is pretty cool. If you're cool you'll add me on Steam. Also, Letterboxd.
If you decided to make a simple google search, you'd know that feminism is about equality across the board, not about trying to one-up men.
When I do search feminism, I got stories like this.
At 7/9/14 12:45 PM, Avery wrote: When I do search feminism, I got stories like this.
Your problem is you're confusing feminists with crazy people. Which nowadays is understandable, since so many crazy people call themselves feminists, but they're still just crazy people.
"Anything could happen in the next half hour!"
"For the love of God, don't stop pretending you're a dragon!"
At 7/9/14 12:49 PM, WahyahRanger wrote: I get the idealism of feminism, but it is certainly abused.
I think that's what Avery is trying to say.
Don't beat him up guys.
Don't stress it, there's more assholes worse than Piggler,
At 7/9/14 12:51 PM, Avery wrote:
Don't stress it, there's more assholes worse than Piggler,
If you think Piggler is an asshole for correcting you about feminism, then its no bloody wonder that you don't realise that sexism is still a problem in first world countries.
[I've been wandering round but I still come back to you]
At 7/9/14 01:17 PM, Gagsy wrote:At 7/9/14 12:51 PM, Avery wrote:Don't stress it, there's more assholes worse than Piggler,If you think Piggler is an asshole for correcting you about feminism, then its no bloody wonder that you don't realise that sexism is still a problem in first world countries.
Ive read some of his posts, he isn't an asshole for correcting me.
At 7/9/14 12:48 PM, Lepy wrote: a lot of females with the same job as males and the female gets paid less.
Which doesn't make sense.
It actually does if you think about it, for starters physical labor is more suited for males, because males tend to have much more muscle than females, why would a guy who works his butt off get paid the same as a woman who does minus 10-15% of what he does?
Women can also get pregnant, so they'll likely take a leave of absence for a few months and still get paid for not working (dunno if that happens in the USA also but it happens where i live).
"Till one day, that lion gets up and tears the shit out of everybody."
At 7/9/14 12:31 PM, Avery wrote: I'd see if you're from a middle-eastern country, where women have few rights, and you tried to fight against it. But in countries like America, what's the point? Women have the same rights as everyone else, they don't get treated badly. Are they just trying to be more powerful then men? Even though that won't happen.
You have to consider both material equity and recognition. Women do not benefit from the same recognition and often are forced into gendered practices that do not benefit them. Gender ideologies are still strong in occidental countries in which we believe that there are obvious distinctions between men and women, and these differences are often a source of discrimination.
As I really don't feel like getting involved in a debate with some of the misogynist dickbutts we have on Newgrounds, I'll just recommend reading books by Penelope Eckert, Sally McConnell-Ginet, Jill Vickers, Judith Butler, and maybe The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault.
I'd say that the things that affect women and womanhood nowadays are far more subtle and insidious, especially because we believe women to have the same rights as men.
At 7/9/14 12:31 PM, Avery wrote: But in countries like America, what's the point? Women have the same rights as everyone else, they don't get treated badly. Are they just trying to be more powerful then men? Even though that won't happen.
They are paid less for the same job as men. Plus, theres the whole matter of paid or unpaid maternity leave...its a complicated issue that a real feminist could probably divulge more information than I, but its generally accepted that feminists strive for true gender equality...I suppose that also involves the tearing down of stereotypes, double-standards, laws that specifically adhere to women that involve contraception, abortion, and how there are weird exceptions or asterisks of certain laws or rules between men and women... like I said, its complicated, but I don't think its a means to make women BETTER than men. The reasonable and non-extremist feminist want overall equality.
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At 7/9/14 01:29 PM, MrPercie wrote: Well, The building industry (and really any heavy lifting kind of job), men have an advantage although you still do get women in these kinds of jobs. But a lot of jobs don't require that kind of vigorous labour and theres many information, technology jobs where being physically able doesn't really come into it.
I know, i was just talking about physical jobs, if a man and a woman work at a call center or something they should be paid the same.
I never understood how that works, whether the government helps pays for that for the small businesses and small company otherwise thats going to be a major factor in who they're going to hire.
I guess it's different from country to country.
"Till one day, that lion gets up and tears the shit out of everybody."
I'd like to remind you guys that there are women in the Middle East that have been jailed because they were raped, while there are feminists here who are complaining about how much they are getting paid.
First world issues, man. They sure are bad, aren't they?
At 7/9/14 01:48 PM, KatMaestro wrote: feminism is there to make sure this will never go away.
Very true, your basic egalitarianism style feminism should always be around as a safeguard. The current wave of internet "feminism" (What wave is it by now? 28th?) is just as toxic as any genuine problem they rally against, however.
"Anything could happen in the next half hour!"
"For the love of God, don't stop pretending you're a dragon!"
At 7/9/14 01:48 PM, KatMaestro wrote: As much as I don't like the many of extremists in the feminism culture, I have to disagree with you here OP. Feminism must exist in modern world to balance out the other extreme of gender inequality. Believe or not, they're one of the main driving force for modern democracy and progressions of our society.
Feminism is the only reason women can vote. We have woman chancellor, premier, mayor, president. We have scientists like Marie Curie to progress our society forward to brighter future. Women has to have the important part in this world. And feminism is there to make sure this will never go away.
Seconded. I stand by suffragettes, and those who believe and fight for the fact that women can make just as much of a difference in the world as men, whom I see as our brethren.
That being said, I don't and can't stand feminazism. FEMEN is a horrible example of this. Preaching tolerance but practising hatred.
I don't even know anymore. Back when women were legally abused (couldn't vote), it made sense. It made a lot of sense because it was a concrete argument. But now? What are we fighting against? Women get paid less? You can't just look at it like that. There are many factors. Not just gender. Physical strength, the ability/inability to have kids, resistence to physical/mental stress, etc. etc. All factors that may influence one's wage. So it isn't as objective as - "a female cannot legally vote", since the law doesn't specify that a woman MUST get paid less. Solving this by retardedly upping wages of women simply because they're women would make even less sense because this system could be EASILY abused.
And don't get me started on rape culture - it's an even more confusing clusterfuck with many, many fallacies.
At 7/9/14 02:15 PM, Lorkas wrote: rape culture
Am I the only person who finds this term to be exceptionally fucking offensive? There are places in the world where women have to take out rape insurance, so if/when they get raped, they have enough money to pay for HIV treatment, and suburban 20somethings are complaining because a guy they passed on the street whispered to his friend that he liked her ass.
"Anything could happen in the next half hour!"
"For the love of God, don't stop pretending you're a dragon!"
Good question OP. 1st and 2nd world femminists are not fighting for equality. They already have them along with few adventages that men don't. There is a code of chivalry and being a gentleman. Both put women above men until they turn out to be self-centered spoiled bitches. There's this fad going on that chivalry is dying. Sure it is, femminists are killing it.
Men for example aren't happily welcomed as teachers, babysitters and so on. Why? Tell someone to imagine a pedophile. Almost everyone will instantly imagine a man. Male pedophiles are always publically stoned to death, while female pedophiles are almost equal in numbers to male pedophiles. Apparently females are earning less. We're living in capitalist society, paying to the workers as little as it's possible is easiest way to profit in capitalism and it's practiced everywhere. Apparently greedy capitalists are more sexist than greedy deciding to pay more to men just not to hire women. It's ridiculous.
You don't see women protesting that there aren't enough women working in mines. You don't see women fighting the stereotype that lifting washing machine to 4th floor or repairing a car is a man's job. You don't see women protesting that there aren't enough women in ANY bad-paid job. They don't care about equality and employment, they care for power.
They want privilages without responsibilities that come along with them. They're simply misguided women that need someone to take care about them, not let them loose running around and barking, till they form in groups and try to take over the power.
At 7/9/14 02:14 PM, MrPercie wrote:At 7/9/14 02:04 PM, JRob wrote: First world issues, man. They sure are bad, aren't they?This is why it's dumb to margelinise anyones struggles because "its WORSE elsewhere, so don't quit complaining!"
Let me put it this way: look at how much attention shit like #banbossy gets, and how much attention human rights violations against women in countries like those in the Middle East gets, and try to tell me you don't see a problem with that.
Feminists say they want equal rights, but what they really want is to rule over man with a diamond fist.
Let us wallow in the filth of the void clinging to one another.
Formerly Schizo-sephy.
At 7/9/14 03:23 PM, MrPercie wrote: I don't really know how the image of feminists got so bad, whether it was just bad portrayal in media or whether theres just loads of idiots calling themselves feminists but in no way actually fight for the significant things feminism stands for but rather complain about dumb shit that confuses people into assuming feminist is this man hating movement or something, but so many people seem to hate feminists for something or other and I wouldn't have thought it was all simply because "they hate female equality".
I've not once met someone who's against feminism and who had proper knowledge of what feminists really do and think. Not only is the hatred for feminism based on total lack of understanding of what they are fighting for, but the media also often focus attention on more aggressive, less intellectual, more dramatic and more spectacular aspects of the news. I don't see much information on Feminist Research Chair in the media, but I see plenty of tits and naked women screaming against patriarchy.
Not to say that media make exclusively bad coverage of everything, but they sure aren't helping when it comes to drawing a good picture of what feminism is.
Like I previously stated, there are contemporary feminists who write in different fields and about a lot of interesting subjects. I'll recommend again reading Penelope Eckert, Sally McConnell-Ginet, Judith Butler, Jill Vickers, etc.
Eckert and McConnell-Ginet have worked together on a book namedLanguage and Gender. It's very interesting what you can learn about how women are perceived in various societies through the way that we talk about them, and also how we are socialized very early in our life to become women and men, and that these categories come with socially-constructed ideas of what women and men are.
Not that this always imply a hierarchy between the genders, but it's a very interesting reading. The chapters "Constructing, deconstructing and reconstructing gender" and "Linking the linguistic to the social" are pretty good :)
If you ever get to read some Butler, try her book Gender Trouble. If you find it to be too massive, try her article "Performative Acts and Gender Constitution: An Essay in Phenomenology and Feminist Theory" it's a lot shorter and you should be able to find it easily on the Internet. Otherwise, just ask me, I've got this books in PDF version.
Threads like this is probably why Vnzi left.
"What I would and wouldn't do with your tight twink body is none of their business. But seriously, I would fucking destroy you." - Xenomit
At 7/9/14 01:19 PM, Amaranthus wrote: World domination and the extermination of men.
Global castration if everything fails.
Bitte meine beliebte Nazi mods, keine bannerino, weil ich auch ein Nazi Scwein bin! Danke schön
At 7/9/14 04:23 PM, MrPercie wrote: Well thats what I would like to know, has the feminist movement had anyone to represent them? Have they tried to reach out to the public on their views? Because I understand it being unfair if the case was people weren't listening, but if no one was making an effort to teach people what feminism was to start with, we might not have this confusion where people have all these dumb assumptions about what it is. Although, even that is unfair to blame someone for doing nothing.
You already know the answer to that. They do. All the time. They work in groups, in different communities depending on their views (since there are various views within the feminist ideology), they have general assemblies in which they work to organize themselves, chose where the movement is willing to go, what they are willing to fight for, etc. These general assemblies actually are often covered by the media, they don't make the front page or main news or anything, but if you look up on the Internet, you could possibly find a group of feminists who work in your region. You might find their websites or news talking about them.
There are also feminist classes in various Universities, ranging from history classes, to sociology, political science, linguistics and I'm pretty sure there are feminist classes in some natural science fields, I'm just not really familiar with these.
You have to know also that there still exist very negative views on women. If they lack recognition, that's because a lot of people don't give it to them. You could try reading on women's experiences in different types of work places, at university and in politics. Their experiences might tell you more about how women are welcomed in these fields.
A quick search on my thesis director gave me a link to this website (in french) this was an event that could be translated to Forum on the general assemblies on feminist action and analysis (this might be a little wrong, but you get the idea). This was an event during which feminists have worked to combine various social causes to consider the fact that, for example, black women might suffer from sorts of discrimination that is specific to them. due to their more specific social situations.
This is based on the fact that white feminists during the 80's and 90's were the hegemonic feminist force and that their experience of sexism was what they were basing their objectives on, and it tended to not consider the very different situation that black women would be facing back then.
This issue is still important to today's feminists, hence the fact that they are still reading on Black Feminism. Authors like Patricia Hill Collins were important to the movement.
At 7/9/14 12:48 PM, Trambamboline wrote: Your problem is you're confusing feminists with crazy people. Which nowadays is understandable, since so many crazy people call themselves feminists, but they're still just crazy people.
No true Scotsman would be crazy...
While we're immunizing ideologies from crazy members, can we say priests who rape boys aren't true Catholics and suicide bombers aren't true Muslims? How about young-Earth Republicans and Democrats who think children are property of the state?
The simple fact is that some people will never be happy, no matter how good their lives are.
At 7/9/14 05:40 PM, ohbombuh wrote: While we're immunizing ideologies from crazy members, can we say priests who rape boys aren't true Catholics and suicide bombers aren't true Muslims? How about young-Earth Republicans and Democrats who think children are property of the state?
That's an important question, and within very democratically constructed movements, it's even harder to tell what a good feminist is and what a bad feminist would be, since the whole ideology is pretty much left often for a variety of different approaches. One thing that is important, though, is that there are roots to a movement, and that if these roots would imply, for instance, that feminism is about fighting for justice and equity between men and women, it would be pretty tough to argue that misandry is part of feminism...
No true Scotsman would be crazy...
While we're immunizing ideologies from crazy members, can we say priests who rape boys aren't true Catholics and suicide bombers aren't true Muslims? How about young-Earth Republicans and Democrats who think children are property of the state?
I kinda did get mixed up.
At 7/9/14 12:31 PM, Avery wrote: I'd see if you're from a middle-eastern country, where women have few rights, and you tried to fight against it. But in countries like America, what's the point? Women have the same rights as everyone else, they don't get treated badly. Are they just trying to be more powerful then men? Even though that won't happen.
Surprisingly a lot of western countries still dont have things like parental leves for pregnancies, and there is a big anti abortion movement in america and spain. And a minority of feminists are completely ridiculous and think men oppress women at all times and other silly things.
At 7/9/14 01:29 PM, Phobotech wrote: its generally accepted that feminists strive for true gender equality...I suppose that also involves the tearing down of stereotypes, double-standards, laws that specifically adhere to women that involve contraception, abortion, and how there are weird exceptions or asterisks of certain laws or rules between men and women...
After thinking about it for a good while, I agree with this. Maybe the reason feminists are still doing whatever the hell they're doing is because they feel the way society thinks is wrong, and in all honesty I do too. The fact that feminists are mainly comprised of women doesn't help them either, especially considering that America was mainly led by men for so many years, and technically still speaking it still is. Stereotypes are a big reason people won't be able to advance to do bigger and better things, yes there are also good stereotypes, like all Black people are good at basketball, or all Asians are good at math, but if people keep thinking of stereotypes in general, their outlook on everything as a whole will be limited. Look at it like this, if everyone still believed all woman is supposed to do is stay home, and all men were never supposed to show emotion, wouldn't we still be living in the past?
However I also believe any war on stereotypes is a lost cause. You can't necessarily change how someone might see another person or group of people, and forcing these ideas on people is ridiculous. Let's also not forget both men and women throw stereotypes around about each other, it's not because of gender, it's because that's human nature. It's okay to say these things, I just don't recommend taking them too far. America does have freedom of speech after all.
But that's just me talkin' shit.
Just call me Psycho for short.
