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At 7/2/14 02:03 PM, Xenomit wrote: I'm ignoring just about everything you said because of the fact that you assume that I'm saying consoles are better than PCs.

But that's not what he's saying at all. You're comparing the control schemes, and so is he. What are you on about?

At 7/2/14 06:39 AM, TheMaster wrote: That's your own lack of skill talking, not a problem with the platform. It might take more practice, but when you're good with a keyboard and mouse you're better than when you're good with a controller.

I never said consoles were better than PCs. I don't know why you feel the need to make this about that, but the only thing I've said so far is that controllers are better than keyboards and mouses. If I had a usb controller (and a computer that could actually run games) I'd play on the PC more often.

But a gamepad is less precise than a keyboard and mouse, that's fact, not arguable. Your input is simply not as accurate when moving a joystick as it is when moving a mouse. It doesn't matter how good you think you are with a gamepad or how accustomed to it you are, it's simply not as precise and therefore inferior.

Again, you're talking nonsense. Ever wonder why console FPS are always significantly slower and lack any sort of skill based movement like rocket jumping or bunnyhopping?

That's the biggest sack of shit I've ever heard. It's not hard at all to do that, and I don't know what makes you think that it is hard by any means.

Well, the fact that it takes fluid and precise motion of the reticle at varying speeds as well as accurately timed crouches and jumps while constantly changing your direction makes it seem a bit complicated to me. But I mean you're the master of video game control so whatever guess I'm just bad or something.

Not only is that easy to accomplish with a controller, but there's only a couple games that you can actually make use of that, and they're all PC games.

So you agree with him that console games don't use those mechanics and PC games do? Congrats, you proved his point.

What normal fucking person is gonna be playing Skyrim and think "Gee, I wanna rocket jump."

I have no idea what point this sentence is trying to make so I'm going to ignore it.

Everything you've said so far is basically "You're just not good enough/ It's harder so you don't like it", which is, like the keyboard and mouse, utter shit. Don't try to respond to me, because literally nothing you can say will convince me that I'm wrong, so it's a waste of both of our time to try.

But that's what you've been saying about the gamepad. Every post you've been saying "with enough practice you can be good with a controller", so you can't really fault him for telling you that it's going to take a bit of getting used to.

At 7/2/14 03:29 PM, Oolaph wrote: But that's not what he's saying at all. You're comparing the control schemes, and so is he. What are you on about?

I'm comparing Controllers to keyboards. He's assuming that I mean consoles to PC. I don't mean that, I'm not comparing consoles to PC.

But a gamepad is less precise than a keyboard and mouse, that's fact, not arguable. Your input is simply not as accurate when moving a joystick as it is when moving a mouse. It doesn't matter how good you think you are with a gamepad or how accustomed to it you are

I can say something as equally shitty, It doesn't matter how fast you think you are with a mouse or how accustomed to it you are, you can look just as fast with a joystick.

it's simply not as precise and therefore inferior.

Keyboard and mouse barely has an advantage over looking, controller has a massive advantage over moving and pretty much everything else. Therefore controllers are superior.

So you agree with him that console games don't use those mechanics and PC games do? Congrats, you proved his point.

No, the only game I know for a fact that rocket jumping is even a thing in is Team Fortress two, and saying that keyboards are better because of one game is just about as fucking retarded as you can possibly get.

What normal fucking person is gonna be playing Skyrim and think "Gee, I wanna rocket jump."

I have no idea what point this sentence is trying to make so I'm going to ignore it.

The point is that there's only so many games that even have rockets to rocket jump with, so using that as a point is absolutely fucking retarded as shit.

Again, controllers are better than keyboards and mouses, objectively. Just because you can look around slightly better with a mouse doesn't make up for all the other downfalls of using a keyboard, which is everything else. There's a reason controllers were originally the only thing you could play games with, and that's because they're objectively better. Absolutely nothing anyone on this website can say will change my stance.

Primary: Scattergun
Secondary: Shotgun
Melee: Bat

At 7/1/14 07:26 PM, Bit wrote: The medigun.

Because a good medic is worth a dozen scouts.

Amen to that.

At 7/2/14 03:38 PM, Xenomit wrote: I'm comparing Controllers to keyboards. He's assuming that I mean consoles to PC. I don't mean that, I'm not comparing consoles to PC.

But not once has he said that. You're putting words into his mouth. He talked about game designed for a gamepad, which is a perfectly valid thing to do, but he didn't say anything about "consoles vs PCs". The gamepad users being beaten by PC users was to demonstrate the fact that the control scheme is superior, not the platform as a whole (even though it is).

I can say something as equally shitty, It doesn't matter how fast you think you are with a mouse or how accustomed to it you are, you can look just as fast with a joystick.

We're not talking about speed, we're talking about accuracy. And no, you can't. TheMaster has already explained why and I shouldn't have to go over it again. A mouse is both more accurate and faster, that isn't based on skill or opinion.

Keyboard and mouse barely has an advantage over looking, controller has a massive advantage over moving and pretty much everything else. Therefore controllers are superior.

The precision of moving with a mouse is so far ahead of a joystick you can't just brush it off as "barely", and where do the other advantages of the controller come in? You went on about the insignificant "creeping on a ledge" bullshit, but what is this "everything else" you're talking about?

No, the only game I know for a fact that rocket jumping is even a thing in is Team Fortress two, and saying that keyboards are better because of one game is just about as fucking retarded as you can possibly get.

It's an example of the advanced things you can do with a keyboard + mouse that simply aren't possible with a gamepad. I would like to see you bunnyhop or do the fast flicks of the reticle required for rocket jumping with a gamepad.

Again, controllers are better than keyboards and mouses, objectively. Just because you can look around slightly better with a mouse doesn't make up for all the other downfalls of using a keyboard, which is everything else.

Once again I'd like you to explain the "downfalls" of using a keyboard and mouse. The most you've said so far has been "you have to use more fingers!", which isn't a downfall, it's just different from what you're used to and in reality it's very well designed and implemented. Not once have I ever found myself struggling to press all the keys necessary when playing a game, you have five fingers, use them all.

There's a reason controllers were originally the only thing you could play games with, and that's because they're objectively better. Absolutely nothing anyone on this website can say will change my stance.

But we're not talking about video games as a whole, we're talking about first person games which have primarily been on computers since the first ones in the '70s, and have almost always been simplified when brought over to home consoles because of the inferior control scheme. I'm starting to think you're trying to be a 'troll' or whatever you want to call it, because this is a bit ridiculous.

There's a reason that keyboard + mouse has been the standard for first person games for decades, and that's because it gives you more control. You have more keys/buttons to utilize, more precision to your reticle movement, and more opportunities for customizing your layout however you want. I get that you're trying to say that a gamepad is better because of how much simpler it is, but the simplicity of a gamepad is not relieving, it's limiting.

At 7/2/14 04:07 PM, Oolaph wrote: Everything that themaster has already said

I'm not re-explaining everything that I've already shot the master down for just because a different person brought them up.

Again, controllers are objectively better. You can argue and say that they're not all you want, but at the end of the day, they are.

At 7/2/14 04:16 PM, Xenomit wrote: Again, controllers are objectively better. You can argue and say that they're not all you want, but at the end of the day, they are.

lol ok pal :^)

At 7/2/14 02:03 PM, Xenomit wrote: I'm ignoring just about everything you said because of the fact that you assume that I'm saying consoles are better than PCs.

Very convenient that the particular strawman you've constructed lets you ignore the points you can't refute. Didn't mention consoles once. The source I used happened to be consoles vs PC, but was used to demonstrate controllers vs keyboard and mouse. The platforms they happened to be on is incidental.

That's the biggest sack of shit I've ever heard. It's not hard at all to do that, and I don't know what makes you think that it is hard by any means. Not only is that easy to accomplish with a controller, but there's only a couple games that you can actually make use of that, and they're all PC games. What normal fucking person is gonna be playing Skyrim and think "Gee, I wanna rocket jump."

Skyrim is my favourite twitch based competitive FPS.

Listen to yourself. You can't perform these moves with a controller because you don't have the control required to do them. That's why they're never in games built with a controller in mind in the first place.

Everything you've said so far is basically "You're just not good enough/ It's harder so you don't like it", which is, like the keyboard and mouse, utter shit.

I'm not saying you're not good enough, I'm saying you're not trying. You've convinced yourself the system you're conformable with is better and you lack the motivation or drive to learn a (marginally) more complicated one that offers significantly more benefits than it does downsides.

Don't try to respond to me, because literally nothing you can say will convince me that I'm wrong, so it's a waste of both of our time to try.

"I cannot refute your arguments so I'm retreating into my bubble". You're acting like a child.

You've still not explained how you're going to be able to rotate both 90 and 180 degrees faster than a mouse user with your controller, by the way. That's an easily demonstrated fundamental flaw with stick aiming, and unless you can address it you've not got a leg to stand on.

At 7/2/14 04:16 PM, Xenomit wrote:

Again, controllers are objectively better.

At 7/2/14 05:29 PM, TheMaster wrote: Listen to yourself. You can't perform these moves with a controller because you don't have the control required to do them.

It's not hard. You're moving forward, you quickly look down, you jump and fire a rocket, then you look back up. Not only is it entirely possible to do with a controller, it's only used in a couple games. Because it's retarded. If you're gonna give people the ability to jump higher by shooting a rocket just below their feet, why not just let them jump higher to begin with.

As I said, team fortress 2 is the only game I know of where rocket jumping is even a thing, and it's kind of a cartoony game anyways. Serious games don't have such a thing because it's not something people do outside of cartoony shooter games.

That's why they're never in games built with a controller in mind in the first place.

No, they're never in games other than TF2 because it's something a cartoon character would do.

I'm not saying you're not good enough, I'm saying you're not trying. You've convinced yourself the system you're conformable with is better and you lack the motivation or drive to learn a (marginally) more complicated one that offers significantly more benefits than it does downsides.

Did you not see where I said that I've tried for a long time to get used to using keyboards? It's unhuman. Movement is awkward, trying to complete actions while trying to get over the awkwardness of moving is awkward, and doing it all on one hand is generally retarded.

You've still not explained how you're going to be able to rotate both 90 and 180 degrees faster than a mouse user with your controller, by the way. That's an easily demonstrated fundamental flaw with stick aiming, and unless you can address it you've not got a leg to stand on.

Rotating 90 degrees has a very minor time difference. Rotating 180 degrees is only slightly less quick than that, but it's not as large of a time gap as you would probably think. Not to mention that a lot of games offer you the ability to press a button and snap the camera to behind you.

At 7/2/14 05:41 PM, Xenomit wrote: It's not hard. You're moving forward, you quickly look down, you jump and fire a rocket, then you look back up. Not only is it entirely possible to do with a controller, it's only used in a couple games.

Rocket jumping is a huge part of almost all arena shooters, and there's a hell of a lot more to it than aiming down and shooting. Look up air strafing or, shit, watch any high level rocket jump replay on Youtube. You'll see why it is not practical with a controller.

Because it's retarded. If you're gonna give people the ability to jump higher by shooting a rocket just below their feet, why not just let them jump higher to begin with.

Because it adds another layer of skill to the gameplay. In most FPS, particularly those made for controllers, you cannot be "good" at movement. In a game with bunnyhopping or rocket jumping you can be, and it gives you a significant advantage of players who are not. It also allows for interesting situations like a player who is not as good at aiming as their opponent being able to win because they're better at moving and can get superior positioning. It's also fun.

As I said, team fortress 2 is the only game I know of where rocket jumping is even a thing, and it's kind of a cartoony game anyways. Serious games don't have such a thing because it's not something people do outside of cartoony shooter games.

If you're this ignorant about video games to begin with you shouldn't be commenting on them in the first place. The Quake Engine and the Unreal Engine both include skill based movement, and are the basis of a vast number, probably the majority, of PC FPS games.

No, they're never in games other than TF2 because it's something a cartoon character would do.

Realism is not necessarily something to strive for in a video game. Gameplay is king, and skill based movement improves the gameplay.

Did you not see where I said that I've tried for a long time to get used to using keyboards? It's unhuman. Movement is awkward, trying to complete actions while trying to get over the awkwardness of moving is awkward, and doing it all on one hand is generally retarded.

I still don't understand how you find it "awkward". Where are you having trouble? I honestly can't comprehend what you're finding tricky because keyboard and mouse feels natural to me. Playing with a controller feels like I'm being hamstrung because I've less direct control over what's happening in the game, I'm limited by the input method, not my own skill.

Rotating 90 degrees has a very minor time difference. Rotating 180 degrees is only slightly less quick than that, but it's not as large of a time gap as you would probably think. Not to mention that a lot of games offer you the ability to press a button and snap the camera to behind you.

Think about that for a second. If a game has to offer you a work around for turning 180 degrees with a controller, but such a thing has never had any reason to exist in games for keyboard and mouse, what does that say about aiming with a controller? See also: auto-aim and target snapping.

At 7/2/14 06:05 PM, TheMaster wrote: More bullshit than last time

I guess you absolutely refuse, like that other guy, to see how you're wrong.

I'm sorry you can't see how controllers are objectively better than keyboards, and I'm sorry you're so limited in your arguments that you have to constantly make comparisons between consoles and PCs, but I apparently can't get you to figure it out.

At 7/2/14 06:11 PM, Xenomit wrote: I guess you absolutely refuse, like that other guy, to see how you're wrong.

I'm sorry you can't see how controllers are objectively better than keyboards, and I'm sorry you're so limited in your arguments that you have to constantly make comparisons between consoles and PCs, but I apparently can't get you to figure it out.

Consoles were not mentioned once in the last post.

If you're trolling, you've got to place an element of truth at the heart of the bait, or it just comes off as a non sequitur and is confusing rather than annoying, which probably isn't what you're going for.

If you're actually trying to defend a point of view you legitimately hold you've got to be able to back it up by providing evidence in support of it and refuting points made against it. Sticking your head in the sand is the equivalent of admitting defeat.

At 7/2/14 06:31 PM, TheMaster wrote: Consoles were not mentioned once in the last post.

They were indirectly. You might be doing it unintentionally, but you keep making indirect comparisons between PCs and consoles.

At 7/2/14 06:41 PM, Xenomit wrote:

At 7/2/14 06:31 PM, TheMaster wrote: Consoles were not mentioned once in the last post.

They were indirectly. You might be doing it unintentionally, but you keep making indirect comparisons between PCs and consoles.

Identify one.

Demoknight with Bill's Hat.

GOML.

At 7/2/14 06:42 PM, TheMaster wrote: Identify one.

Ok.

The Quake Engine and the Unreal Engine both include skill based movement, and are the basis of a vast number, probably the majority, of PC FPS games.

That's your skill as a limitation, not the control scheme. Check out any of those cross-platform experiments, where PC player destroyed console players because they simply have more control over what they're doing.

That's your own lack of skill talking, not a problem with the platform.

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At 7/2/14 07:07 PM, Xenomit wrote:

The Quake Engine and the Unreal Engine both include skill based movement, and are the basis of a vast number, probably the majority, of PC FPS games.

A statement of fact, not a comparison. Saying they're the basis of "the majority of FPS games" would be untrue, but we're only talking about PC games, so it doesn't matter that they're not the majority of ALL FPS games, just that they're the majority of PC FPS games.

Which is what I wrote.

You're projecting pretty hard onto it to get any reference to console games out of that.

That's your skill as a limitation, not the control scheme. Check out any of those cross-platform experiments, where PC player destroyed console players because they simply have more control over what they're doing.

"Check out any of these examples of keybaord and mouse users beating controller users to see why keyboard and mouse offers more control".

The fact that the controller users are on consoles is irrelevant, and I don't know why you're bringing it into the discussion. They wouldn't magically be better if their controllers were plugged into a PC.

That's your own lack of skill talking, not a problem with the platform.

Aye, okay, there's a slip of the tongue. One that, again, doesn't invalidate the argument behind it, because you're just arguing semantics.

At 7/2/14 06:05 PM, TheMaster wrote: I still don't understand how you find it "awkward". Where are you having trouble? I honestly can't comprehend what you're finding tricky because keyboard and mouse feels natural to me.

He put 4 fingers on WASD. 4 fucking fingers. Lol.