Questionning: What is mature or not

[312274]

Hello everyone,

I'm here to talk about a subject that bothered me for long. The subject is: What can be considered as mature in art, in general?

As I was expecting it, something happened on my art and yet, nobody been able to explain me clearly the reason about it. For now, without thinking or questionning, some people take for granted, that nipples, are considered as mature element. Says like this, it's sound logics for anybody.

But what happen when you try to represent something from another culture and try to share something different? What happen when you try to push people to question themself about what they think they know?

Here my big concern: http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-wall-tag

Automaticly and mechanically, some people would says that is normal to be mature, some would says (And I've been told many times already) that they don't understand why it's in mature.

So far, I've took the times to look rules on deviant art, newgrounds and others artistics plateform, and none of them have a serious and clear line saying that nipples are mature content. But a lot of people take this as granted. So, I asked myself a philosophic question: Why the laws is not clear about this? Does the laws understand that each case need special treatment?

Then I took my time to look what happen in occidentals culture. Topless statues in public, representation of divinities or mythologies or sometimes, just the expression of beauty itself. The Louvres or any other museums open to public. On TV, documentaries talk about tribes and other culture, free to everyone to see.

With all these examples, for me, I came with this conclusion: Nipples with the "right" intentions, are not considered as mature element. So my other question is: Why should I be censored if I do exactly the same? There is art with women in slim swimsuits, with obvious slutty position and slutty intentions that are way more mature than topless woman representing her culture. So, if laws been pretty evasive on this question, to me, it's probably for this reason.

I would like a moderator to change my rating back on http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-wall-tag please. Nobody sent me a message to explain the perfect line, confirming that fact that it should be mature. Nobody asked my consent to censor my work. It's should be up to an artist to decide if he accept the change it or just remove its work.

Does It make any sence for you guys or I'm just totally illuminate?
PS: Sorry for my bad english.

[Lintire]

At 5/21/14 06:03 AM, 312274 wrote: http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-wall-tag

Those are some giant areolas.

Anyway, content submission is rated native to the platform it's submitted on. That's common sense. What's acceptable in one culture isn't acceptable in another, or is acceptable to a different degree.

The Greeks may have loved fucking little boys, but if someone submits a picture of that here it's going to get a Mature rating. Possibly even Adult. Same principle with nipples.

Sorry for my bad english

Your brevity is worse.

[123mine123]

Here's my total opinion on this.
The E rating is for stuff that is FINE for all ages and what most people or society consider ok for children. It could have some cartoonish violence or some mild insults, but it's mostly harmless
T is reserved for stuff that aren't that ok with children like mild blood, violence, or some explicit language.
M is what you should consider to never show to children or when you are in a public place and some guy or friend would go, "WTH R U LOOKIN' AT!" So nudity, extreme violence, sexual or suggestive theme (not exactly adult stuff yet).

As for the statues, eh, I don't know. Mostly people will reason it's art and when it's on your computer screen, it would totally be ok. Or like drawing from real life figure drawing can be rated as T. But what people might not be ok is comic-like nudity or beyond anything that looks realistic. Like leaving on a comic page from a noir themed comic book.

As a matter of fact, if not similar, the rating could be really close to how ESRB rate games.
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

[312274]

At 5/21/14 07:14 AM, Lintire wrote:

At 5/21/14 06:03 AM, 312274 wrote: http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-wall-tag

Those are some giant areolas.

Anyway, content submission is rated native to the platform it's submitted on. That's common sense. What's acceptable in one culture isn't acceptable in another, or is acceptable to a different degree.

The Greeks may have loved fucking little boys, but if someone submits a picture of that here it's going to get a Mature rating. Possibly even Adult. Same principle with nipples.

Sorry for my bad english

Your brevity is worse.

"Anyway, content submission is rated native to the platform it's submitted on. That's common sense. What's acceptable in one culture isn't acceptable in another, or is acceptable to a different degree." I perfectly know that, that why I'm not talking about Asiatic culture here, but occidentals culture itself.

The Greeks may have loved fucking little boys, but if someone submits a picture of that here it's going to get a Mature rating. Possibly even Adult. Same principle with nipples. What's kind of arguments are you trying to defend here? Is today greeks allowed this kind of things? Is there any relations between nipples arts or the representation of now day culture against pedophilia? Still you don't explain the nature of topless statues in public area, that are obviously not build by the greeks in occidentals countries, but are recent things. Nor explaining me why some arts with topless women are showed in public. Nor showing me any lines on newgrounds rules explaining clearly that nipples are mature. Nor explaining to me why the laws is obviously blur in this place.

Be in mind, I'm talking about topless and it's cultural arts representations in occidentals countries. Not pedophilia.

Your brevity is worse. Sorry, but this kind of subject is far to be a simple mathematic approach.

At 5/21/14 07:19 AM, 123mine123 wrote: Here's my total opinion on this.
The E rating is for stuff that is FINE for all ages and what most people or society consider ok for children. It could have some cartoonish violence or some mild insults, but it's mostly harmless
T is reserved for stuff that aren't that ok with children like mild blood, violence, or some explicit language.
M is what you should consider to never show to children or when you are in a public place and some guy or friend would go, "WTH R U LOOKIN' AT!" So nudity, extreme violence, sexual or suggestive theme (not exactly adult stuff yet).

As for the statues, eh, I don't know. Mostly people will reason it's art and when it's on your computer screen, it would totally be ok. Or like drawing from real life figure drawing can be rated as T. But what people might not be ok is comic-like nudity or beyond anything that looks realistic. Like leaving on a comic page from a noir themed comic book.

As a matter of fact, if not similar, the rating could be really close to how ESRB rate games.
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

Yeah you right, there is many strange behavior amoung people about. And the fact that people still believe that arts can influence people into a "bad person" is kinda insane. Still, the USA court justice in a jurisprudence, says that any kind of arts (music, arts, videogames, movies and more) cannot be used on any kind of accusations for a someone action. (If I'm not saying shit about it, need to confirm)

So yeah, I don't have any problem with T or under. But being classified as mature with no reason given, based on something someone may understand it as granted, is ludicrous to me. Without trying to discredited, people have no problem to bring childs at Rambo movies, showing people die in a tons of hemoglobin, but you show topless breasts and here we need to drama about?

Anyway, the subject still is in my situation and the fact that I'm not using breasts for lusty intentions but as the representation of a nowday culture and still nobody have yet explained me or give me the reason for that unfortunuatly :/

Another picture to follow my idea (Naked breast if people don't want to be "shock"): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/118828191/tumblr_n3zh4jEwas1rsjdo1o9_1280.jpg

[J-qb]

stop looking at this as censoring.
Newgrounds offers people the option to decide what content they want to browse. Anyone can just see m-rated art, nothing is stopping them from looking at it, it's just a warning that says: "there is some nudity and/or violence in this".
Note how it doesn't say anything about how tasteful or artistically valid that nudity is.

[312274]

At 5/21/14 09:08 AM, J-qb wrote: stop looking at this as censoring.
Newgrounds offers people the option to decide what content they want to browse. Anyone can just see m-rated art, nothing is stopping them from looking at it, it's just a warning that says: "there is some nudity and/or violence in this".
Note how it doesn't say anything about how tasteful or artistically valid that nudity is.

To honest, I don't see it only as censorship but as a wrong classification. I don't have any problem to let people decide. My real concern still is that there is something very clunky about this subject. I still don't believe that my job is mature. You are right, it's doesn't say anything about how tasteful or artistically valid nudity it's is, but it doesn't says what kind of nudity. Obviously it's genitalia nudity, there is no problem with that, but what about topless then? For some people, it's not nudity what so ever. I could use "nudity" as a lot of things, arms, legs, head (no hat) etc... . Some people in other plateform (when I used mature content to avoid explaining myself) and even one in newground asked me why it's was in mature section.

Does the 3 picture I showed here, would be classified as mature content on newgrounds? (Photo Greek inspired statue, photo of a tribal woman, picture of "Liberté guidant la peuple" from Delacroix)

The answer would help me a lot to understand the real intention of Newgrounds laws.

[Lintire]

At 5/21/14 09:42 AM, 312274 wrote: Does the 3 picture I showed here, would be classified as mature content on newgrounds?

Yes. As would the photograph above it. I don't know why you were under the impression that it wouldn't.

I might, if I read your posts fully. But I'm not going to do that. It is physically painful to attempt to comprehend your walls of text. Like a preachy hammer to the brow.

You know that classifying something as "Mature" isn't some slur against the content, right?

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 5/21/14 06:03 AM, 312274 wrote: I would like a moderator to change my rating back on http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-wall-tag please. Nobody sent me a message to explain the perfect line, confirming that fact that it should be mature. Nobody asked my consent to censor my work. It's should be up to an artist to decide if he accept the change it or just remove its work.

This isn't really a discussion, but more that you have a problem with the rating of your pic being changed.

It's mature rated. It's got a female breast in.
If those pictures were uploaded to the art portal they'd also be rated mature. Because they have breasts in them.

Can people enjoy them without viewing the content as sexual or overly erotic? Absolutely.

[Dessinmaitre]

Yes, when it comes to individuals, maturity can be interpreted freely, but when it comes to the general public...There need to be standards that focus on everyone in general. That's just how things are.

[LegolaSS]

Lego's guide to rating

E - Everyone

As the description says, Everyone. there is no violence, bad language, sexual meaning or anything that anyone could find remotely offensive, this is as kid safe as it gets!

EXAMPLE
http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/plane?context=ratings:etm.user:795154T - Teen

Moving up a notch, this is for pictures which push a little further, such as foul language, a bit of violence, or borderline nudity / sexual theme.

EXAMPLE
http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-and-waterfall?context=ratings:etm.user:795154(yes i understand this is rated E, but it could easily be rated T as well, the E to T gap isn't much of an issue)

M - Mature

Put it simply, Nipples, full nudity in a non sexual way, extreme violence. anything you wouldn't want young kids to see.

EXAMPLE

• 
  Djeneba, la gardienne by 312274

  Djeneba in one drawn with less spoilers, as possible I would say. A friend asked me a wallpaper version. It’s a 1920x1200 (...

  Score

  4.125000000 / 5.00

  Type

  Illustration

  Popularity

  1,859 Views

  Rated

  Ages 17+

(I believe this was rated T but i took it up to M awhile ago due to said reason)

A - Adult

Again, very simple to explain, this is basically where i shove anything i would redeem as porn, art work purely made for sexual reasons, you get the idea.

EXAMPLE NOT NEEDED

Here is the little tick box you can click on, the only way to get adult is if you click lots of nudity.
mature covers the some nudity, and adult themes, "note that extreme violence and language also hits mature", teen covers the fully clothed people that might be suggestive. and E is for a piece that doesn't push any of these boundaries.

The rating system is purely to help organize what people want to see.

[LegolaSS]

E - Everyone

EXAMPLE
http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/plane?context=ratings:etm.user:795154T - Teen

EXAMPLE
http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-and-waterfall?context=ratings:etm.user:795154: I hate when that happens with links

[LegolaSS]

• 
  Plane by 312274

  For fun...a mixt between a Pe-8, galaxy with some english wing engine. And there is the concord hide in this landscape. Yeah...

  Score

  4.569230769 / 5.00

  Type

  Illustration

  Popularity

  15,458 Views

  Rated

  Everyone

• 
  Djeneba and Waterfall by 312274

  With this hot summer, I wanted some waterfalls and crystal water.

  Score

  4.638888888 / 5.00

  Type

  Illustration

  Popularity

  1,406 Views

  Rated

  Everyone

[312274]

At 5/21/14 09:57 AM, Lintire wrote:

At 5/21/14 09:42 AM, 312274 wrote: Does the 3 picture I showed here, would be classified as mature content on newgrounds?

Yes. As would the photograph above it. I don't know why you were under the impression that it wouldn't.

I might, if I read your posts fully. But I'm not going to do that. It is physically painful to attempt to comprehend your walls of text. Like a preachy hammer to the brow.

You know that classifying something as "Mature" isn't some slur against the content, right?

Yes. As would the photograph above it. I don't know why you were under the impression that it wouldn't. Because , you understand that in this world, nobody is born just like you, people that don't lived the same experience as you and didn't had the same education as you? Isn't that in Australia, the governement and many politicians believe that videogames create violance? (Which is not in USA) So, I do imagine, the laws are somewhat different from USA and so people believing too.

I might, if I read your posts fully. But I'm not going to do that. It is physically painful to attempt to comprehend your walls of text. Like a preachy hammer to the brow. So why are you even trying to debate or push your opinion if it's to ignore someone arguments in the first place? It's painfull to you? You are aware that you don't need to hurt yourself by staying here, of course you are free to do what you want.

You know that classifying something as "Mature" isn't some slur against the content, right? Yes I know, if you readed me, my problem isn't only the "mature" thingy, but questionning the obvious blur about the rules and most important, the fact that a lot of people take things for granted with no arguments or facts. Yes, I know it's not a slur, but I'm still not okay with, is that a problem to question about this?

At 5/21/14 10:05 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote:

At 5/21/14 06:03 AM, 312274 wrote: I would like a moderator to change my rating back on http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/312274/djeneba-wall-tag please. Nobody sent me a message to explain the perfect line, confirming that fact that it should be mature. Nobody asked my consent to censor my work. It's should be up to an artist to decide if he accept the change it or just remove its work.

This isn't really a discussion, but more that you have a problem with the rating of your pic being changed.

It's mature rated. It's got a female breast in.
If those pictures were uploaded to the art portal they'd also be rated mature. Because they have breasts in them.

Can people enjoy them without viewing the content as sexual or overly erotic? Absolutely.

Actually sir, believe me or not, it's both. Because of this problem, I wish to have some clarification, arguments, facts, details. You are explaining the "usual" situation some people use as granted "breasts = mature" but no where it's been clearly writed about this supposed "facts". Where does that things come from, can you explain me please? Where is the rule line about it? Even Newgrounds may create it's own rules, even in it, it's not clear at all.

J-qb been right about what its says but there is a obvious blur here. At this rate, it's up to everyone, through their educations or culture, to decide if it's considered as nudity so far. Some people may say a movie is bad but other don't. And believe me or not, but there is also people that been questionning me about why it's mature or classify as nudity.

At 5/21/14 10:57 AM, Dessinmaitre wrote: Yes, when it comes to individuals, maturity can be interpreted freely, but when it comes to the general public...There need to be standards that focus on everyone in general. That's just how things are.

Yes totally true, but then who decide? Who win? For what argument What is the standards? Even the standars talking about maturity here is still blur. Again, where is the famous line "Breasts or any representation showing breasts is considered as mature content" ?

To all: Awsering my question help to see what people obviously think. Because of the lack of arguments, I still believe that a lot take things as granted. Because breasts, because that... . As you all, I live in an occidental country, but with the fact that soon after born, I lived all my childhood in africa, then returned. And I find many people in different occidentals countries having different kind of approach as says "Dessinmaitre". Some saw the same things as me, even not having the same experience, I shared the same opinion in this approach. To be honest, I don't try to struggle to change my work into a no mature, sure it's important to me, but also if it's can also give me a clear view of Newgrounds rules, I could make my own decision about this.

I invite you guys to take a look to the animation named: "Kirikou and the sorceress" It's a french made animation based on the african fantasy and fairy tales. I saw it in 1998 and it's rated for kids, it's also in english and different subtiles and it had some good notes in other occidentals countries. I ever knew a US teacher showing it at school.

[312274]

Many thanks LegolaSS for your clear explanation about newgrounds rules, under this, it's totally clear for me now ^^

[LegolaSS]

At 5/21/14 11:35 AM, 312274 wrote: Many thanks LegolaSS for your clear explanation about newgrounds rules, under this, it's totally clear for me now ^^

Glad to have helped! (although it was a bit messy with the links)

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 5/21/14 11:32 AM, 312274 wrote:

At 5/21/14 10:05 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: It's mature rated. It's got a female breast in.
If those pictures were uploaded to the art portal they'd also be rated mature. Because they have breasts in them.

Can people enjoy them without viewing the content as sexual or overly erotic? Absolutely.

Actually sir, believe me or not, it's both. Because of this problem, I wish to have some clarification, arguments, facts, details. You are explaining the "usual" situation some people use as granted "breasts = mature" but no where it's been clearly writed about this supposed "facts". Where does that things come from, can you explain me please? Where is the rule line about it? Even Newgrounds may create it's own rules, even in it, it's not clear at all.

J-qb been right about what its says but there is a obvious blur here. At this rate, it's up to everyone, through their educations or culture, to decide if it's considered as nudity so far. Some people may say a movie is bad but other don't. And believe me or not, but there is also people that been questionning me about why it's mature or classify as nudity.

(why are you writing in bold? It's pointless and it makes what you're writing harder to read)

There's not an obvious blur here, and Newgrounds isn't making the rules.
- Full frontal nudity is not in 12 rated films.
- I've yet to see a light entertainment show provide uncensored viewing of women's breasts.
- You don't see women walking down the street with their knockers hanging out.

It's not written down anywhere, but you're making this needlessly difficult. When you fill out your picture classification you should be putting down "Nudity = Some", which classifies the picture as Mature rated.

Because it shows breasts.

[Sockembop]

At 5/21/14 11:03 AM, LegolaSS wrote: Put it simply, Nipples, full nudity in a non sexual way, extreme violence. anything you wouldn't want young kids to see.

You don't want young kids to see nipples? Isn't that kind of like saying you wouldn't want a grown man to see a sandwich? I can somewhat understand violence. We wouldn't want children emulating that, but what are we afraid children will learn from seeing a nipple? You just wanna hog all the nipples for yourself.

[312274]

At 5/21/14 12:09 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote:

At 5/21/14 11:32 AM, 312274 wrote:

At 5/21/14 10:05 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: It's mature rated. It's got a female breast in.
If those pictures were uploaded to the art portal they'd also be rated mature. Because they have breasts in them.

Can people enjoy them without viewing the content as sexual or overly erotic? Absolutely.

Actually sir, believe me or not, it's both. Because of this problem, I wish to have some clarification, arguments, facts, details. You are explaining the "usual" situation some people use as granted "breasts = mature" but no where it's been clearly writed about this supposed "facts". Where does that things come from, can you explain me please? Where is the rule line about it? Even Newgrounds may create it's own rules, even in it, it's not clear at all.

J-qb been right about what its says but there is a obvious blur here. At this rate, it's up to everyone, through their educations or culture, to decide if it's considered as nudity so far. Some people may say a movie is bad but other don't. And believe me or not, but there is also people that been questionning me about why it's mature or classify as nudity.

(why are you writing in bold? It's pointless and it makes what you're writing harder to read)

There's not an obvious blur here, and Newgrounds isn't making the rules.
- Full frontal nudity is not in 12 rated films.
- I've yet to see a light entertainment show provide uncensored viewing of women's breasts.
- You don't see women walking down the street with their knockers hanging out.

It's not written down anywhere, but you're making this needlessly difficult. When you fill out your picture classification you should be putting down "Nudity = Some", which classifies the picture as Mature rated.

Because it shows breasts.

I was writing in bold to separate from the italic quoting I made for more precision. And bold for the answers. Since I had no problem with it I wasn't expecting it would be a problem to anyone.

So can you explain to me why in some other US art plateform, the approach of the content is different then. Is not that a proof of dealing things on it's own way? In some plateform, my art is not mature. I'm not critizing Newgrouds, just pointing a fact. I respect their decision.

Well, I invite you to see Kirikou and the sorceress sir, maybe you change your mind about 12 rated films, same for the uncensored women's breasts.

Yes, I don't see a women with her breats hanging out, I do see it in the beach in summer, I see it on statues, I see it on documentaries, and so on, I don't think it's a good argument, but you are free to use it as a point.

Because for you it's may be "obvious" but not for me. We, for sure, don't have the same experience and education that builded ourselve but I was curious to know in details what are the rules in the newgrounds house. Breasts are not nudity to me as for some people while it is for you and others. I was pointing out that blur and wanted to know if it's has a real meaning (first post) until I get Legolass awnser that is clear to me than "breasts = mature" .

So now, with all the answers, I know clearly what is newgrounds decision to deal with this kind of case, I respect this decision what so ever.

PS: How did you manage to find my master plan Sockembop?!

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 5/21/14 12:51 PM, 312274 wrote: So can you explain to me why in some other US art plateform, the approach of the content is different then. Is not that a proof of dealing things on it's own way? In some plateform, my art is not mature: I'm not critizing Newgrouds, just pointing a fact. I respect their decision.

You didn't in the opening post: you wanted it changed back.

Well, I invite you to see Kirikou and the sorceress sir, maybe you change your mind about 12 rated films, same for the uncensored women's breasts.

Apart from that your film is never on TV, there are always the rare exceptions. That in no way makes your picture acceptable.

Yes, I don't see a women with her breats hanging out, I do see it in the beach in summer, I see it on statues, I see it on documentaries, and so on, I don't think it's a good argument, but you are free to use it as a point.

For all the things you listed (beaches/statues/documentaries), you have to have a Mature attitude, and all people know treat these things with a certain amount of respect.

Frankly, I don't think any of your argument has been "good", but I still have to address your points.

Because for you it's may be "obvious" but not for me. We, for sure, don't have the same experience and education that builded ourselve but I was curious to know in details what are the rules in the newgrounds house. Breasts are not nudity to me as for some people while it is for you and others. I was pointing out that blur and wanted to know if it's has a real meaning (first post) until I get Legolass awnser that is clear to me than "breasts = mature" .

I have no idea why you find Legolass's answer any clearer than the other responses in this thread.

You are making a point about cultural differences, exceptions to the rules, etc, .... but for LegolaSS's answer, you just stick your tail between your legs. But his answer is the same as all the other responses you are getting in this thread, which is that "breasts = mature".

[TurkeyOnAStick]

And my point which you didn't contest with was:

At 5/21/14 12:09 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: It's not written down anywhere, but you're making this needlessly difficult. When you fill out your picture classification you should be putting down "Nudity = Some", which classifies the picture as Mature rated.

Just to highlight my problem with this: in order to have a Teen rated pic, you would have had to claim that the amount of Nudity in the pic was None, which is clearly wrong. Just so that you feel you can share your pic to a wider audience.

[312274]

"You didn't in the opening post: you wanted it changed back."
-Yes because on my past experience, and research about the subject, it's was obvious to me, that this rules was blur for a reason. Otherwise, there is no reason to make whole text explaining my point of views. It's questionning to me, not critizing. But if you believe I was, feel free.

"Apart from that your film is never on TV, there are always the rare exceptions. That in no way makes your picture acceptable."
-This still don't explain why it's not make my picture "acceptable" compared to it. You just pop this out of nowhere as nothing is made for move or any questionning. Again, you may need to understand that people don't have the same approach as you as you talk like it was obvious. It's wasn't for me, because I had past experience showing me otherwise. I made my approach through arguments (that you may still not believe are, but you do as you feel again) that still haven't get any counter argument yet, expect "of course it's mature, there is breasts". Yeah and "god exist because there is stuff we don't understand" is not enough to me. Just try to understand that please; no need to accept it.

"For all the things you listed (beaches/statues/documentaries), you have to have a Mature attitude, and all people know treat these things with a certain amount of respect." True it is, it's ask some "maturity" face to this, so I guess I was "mature" in a young age. Which defend the fact that maturity is not automaticly granted at +17. But here, "mature" artwork and the "maturity" we are talking about, I believe is not used in the same register to me. Who's is right, who is wrong, what ever, the subject is answered.

"I have no idea why you find Legolass's answer any clearer than the other responses in this thread. You are making a point about cultural differences, exceptions to the rules, etc, .... but for LegolaSS's answer, you just stick your tail between your legs. But his answer is the same as all the other responses you are getting in this thread, which is that "breasts = mature"."

Well, Legolass made this clear in two ways:
1. The fact that he is following and growing all your opinions
2. The picture with colored square that explain me how newgrounds make its approach about this subject, seeing that made me clear to me, believe it or not.

Sure it's don't explain why they decide to see breasts as mature element, but it showed to me that newgrounds is more stricts on that way compared to what I know. I've been questionning until I get a details that show me how newgrounds deal with this which I had. "sticking my tail between my legs" i'm not but If you think, I was "fighting" or I just decide to abandon, well, if it's you make you feel better, be my guest. Otherwise, nope.

"It's not written down anywhere, but you're making this needlessly difficult. When you fill out your picture classification you should be putting down "Nudity = Some", which classifies the picture as Mature rated."
If you ask me to contest here we go. I answered this same kind of question in the second post I made. What's kind of nudity I said, because I still not consider breasts as nudity and no lines have obviously explain "breasts or any representations of breasts are mature". So I questionned the stuff until I had something that explain me obviously how newground really approach that things. Simple as that. I could also ask you that you haven't been able to explain why statues,
documentaries, Museum allow this in publics even for kids to see and what I have done cannot, without any arguments. But it's not matter anymore since I have my answer now.

Just to highlight my problem with this: in order to have a Teen rated pic, you would have had to claim that the amount of Nudity in the pic was None, which is clearly wrong. Just so that you feel you can share your pic to a wider audience.
And we comne again in the same problem ad same origins of everything. Which start with my first post. Everyone is not living just like you sir, you have to understand this. Nudity, for me, is not a pair of breasts, as some others art plateform showed me, as some people shared this same opinion and as I experienced. For you and other people, this look "clearly wrong" and "obvious". I'm repeating myself again but, until i get this picture from Legolass, it gave me a better way to look of how newgrounds deal with this. So now, I'm way more inclined to believe that how newgrounds works and I will stick with newgrounds rules.

Anyway, the subject is answered and I already know from the start, that I won't be okay with everyone, but it's okay, I aware people have some differents way to see things.

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 5/21/14 04:20 PM, 312274 wrote: -Yes because on my past experience, and research about the subject, it's was obvious to me, that this rules was blur for a reason. Otherwise, there is no reason to make whole text explaining my point of views. It's questionning to me, not critizing. But if you believe I was, feel free.

The rules aren't a blur. You should know this by now, since you "agree with LegolaSS" post which clearly stipulates the boundaries.

-This still don't explain why it's not make my picture "acceptable" compared to it. You just pop this out of nowhere as nothing is made for move or any questionning.

You're making an apples and oranges arguement, comparing an anthropomorphic cat to some third world tribes women. I don't feel the need to address this point any further, because both would be rated Mature anyway.

Yeah and "god exist because there is stuff we don't understand" is not enough to me. Just try to understand that please; no need to accept it.

Your God analogy is awkward, since that's a suggestion that there is no evidence to support it, and you should just accept it. But your pic DEFINITELY has boobs in it. Forgive me if I'm going in circles, but you're not grasping this concept.

Well, Legolass made this clear in two ways:
1. The fact that he is following and growing all your opinions
2. The picture with colored square that explain me how newgrounds make its approach about this subject, seeing that made me clear to me, believe it or not.

Sure it's don't explain why they decide to see breasts as mature element, but it showed to me that newgrounds is more stricts on that way compared to what I know. I've been questionning until I get a details that show me how newgrounds deal with this which I had. "sticking my tail between my legs" i'm not but If you think, I was "fighting" or I just decide to abandon, well, if it's you make you feel better, be my guest. Otherwise, nope.

He's repeating the rest of the opinions in this thread. Your social/cultural arguments would still be applied to him.
And you're still making the same arguments to me.

If you ask me to contest here we go. I answered this same kind of question in the second post I made. What's kind of nudity I said, because I still not consider breasts as nudity and no lines have obviously explain "breasts or any representations of breasts are mature".

I have no idea why you think breasts are not nudity. None whatsoever.
You live in France, where I'm sure you'd be aware by now that it's not acceptable to bare your breasts in public.

So I questionned the stuff until I had something that explain me obviously how newground really approach that things. Simple as that. I could also ask you that you haven't been able to explain why statues,
documentaries, Museum allow this in publics even for kids to see and what I have done cannot, without any arguments. But it's not matter anymore since I have my answer now.

Kids can see your Mature work in the art portal.

Everyone is not living just like you sir, you have to understand this. Nudity, for me, is not a pair of breasts, as some others art plateform showed me, as some people shared this same opinion and as I experienced. For you and other people, this look "clearly wrong" and "obvious". I'm repeating myself again but, until i get this picture from Legolass, it gave me a better way to look of how newgrounds deal with this. So now, I'm way more inclined to believe that how newgrounds works and I will stick with newgrounds rules.

Firstly, your opinion is in the minority, since this issue has never come up before, and you're the only one making your case.
Secondly, I noticed you removed your artwork just because you weren't happy with them being M rated. There must be something else going on here, because that seems petty.

But delete your artwork, if it's you make you feel better, be my guest.

[test-object]

At 5/21/14 11:32 AM, 312274 wrote: I invite you guys to take a look to the animation named: "Kirikou and the sorceress" It's a french made animation based on the african fantasy and fairy tales. I saw it in 1998 and it's rated for kids, it's also in english and different subtiles and it had some good notes in other occidentals countries. I ever knew a US teacher showing it at school.

I saw that animation, it was good.

Your teacher deemed the movie to have enough educational/artistic value to overlook the boobs. So did the rating boards in 1998. If it were released today, it may have had a different rating. If it were released on Newgrounds today, it'd probably be considered mature content because said boobies. It wouldn't be censored, it wouldn't be deleted (in fact, it would probably be lauded and advertised like crazy), but most relevant of all; it would have gained a helpful little icon which tells us "this thing may have some things in it you may not want your kids to watch".

Don't get too strung up on terminology. Times change, settings differ, contexts alter. The world's built upon such hypocrisy and that's why it functions. Think of it as a legal safety net: if some mother sends an angry letter complaining to Tom Fulp because her child saw something risqué, Tom can say "It is rated M/A for Mature/Adult, we did not go around promoting porn to little kids". In the end, I think just having a little blue M is a small prize to pay for the artist as opposed to having it censored. You may not agree with it, but informing the general population is what matters, and this population happens to have agreed that nipples are a bit naughty.

Conclusion
Today, I learned that they actually made a Kirikou game for the PC, Playstation and Gameboy Color.

[312274]

Wow, just wow dude. I don't know what all this struggling is about with you, but obviously you want that "I'm so right, look at me". I've been debating about a subject and things that I saw as obviously blur to me and because I had another approach I wanted to know and understand how people see that stuff with giving my arguments. You can't take it that someone don't believe like you? You can't understand it or what? If you don't want to understand, it's up to you

The fact that you DON'T want to even to believe that for some people or any other place than newgrounds, breasts are not considered as mature, is clearly INSANE. I understand that for some people it can be, but if for me it's not and I wanted to be sure about newgrounds approach, it will stay not for me dude, back on planet earth, there is 7 billons people here with differents opinions, culture and experience in life than you, deal with it.

If newgrounds decide that boobs is mature nudity so BE IT, I had what I was looking after Legolass, and if I accepted for Legolass opinion that mean I accept what people said, so what do you even bother??

Still, we are talking about arts, statues, museums, there is public topless art show in publics, that doesn't mean people have to hang topless for what ever reason. And it's not because, it's oh so "confirmed" minority you implied, that there is no questionning to do.

I don't know what you try to do with me but you seems to be obviously very judging over me. Trying to tell me how things must me, and how things are in your special life model. You must have a book about the good little citizen somewhere? I would like one to be just like you. It's clearly have nothing to do with the subject and the fact that it's answered for long now, you keep going and you cannot bear that someone don't think like you. You don't want to believe my good intention, so BE IT.

ANd what still make me answer, is that I won't let you making me pass for the bad guy. I came here with neutrality in hope to know better how people here and newgrounds really deal with this. I have also my argument, let's just talk. That's just all.

IF the rules don't meet what I was looking for, I can be free to remove it then. "You don't like it, you leave" as the quote says. I'm not leaving I removing what I'm not okay with. END. What would be actually "petty" would be to do a drama about or use it as what ever threat. So who are you to judge me and my action about this? Freaking hell, is up to me, I respect Newgrounds rules, even it not my things, but nothing force me to let it there. I never done any attack on you, just exposing idea and answering you, I never told you what you must to be, or what you should BE. A least there is people that understand my problem in a more mature way than trying just to crush their opinion on other as "obvious", calling their action petty, and not wanting to admit any kind of differents opinions , sticking the tag "idiot" or "bad guy" on them.

So what do you want to PROOVE here? That you are right? That your opinion master? Or you Wait for me to approove you? Or maybe you want to make me look dumb for no apparent reason? HEY here the dear answer you may was looking for "TurkeyOnAStick, you are so right" hope it make you sleep well, sweet prince.

At 5/21/14 06:12 PM, test-object wrote:

At 5/21/14 11:32 AM, 312274 wrote: I invite you guys to take a look to the animation named: "Kirikou and the sorceress" It's a french made animation based on the african fantasy and fairy tales. I saw it in 1998 and it's rated for kids, it's also in english and different subtiles and it had some good notes in other occidentals countries. I ever knew a US teacher showing it at school.

I saw that animation, it was good.

Your teacher deemed the movie to have enough educational/artistic value to overlook the boobs. So did the rating boards in 1998. If it were released today, it may have had a different rating. If it were released on Newgrounds today, it'd probably be considered mature content because said boobies. It wouldn't be censored, it wouldn't be deleted (in fact, it would probably be lauded and advertised like crazy), but most relevant of all; it would have gained a helpful little icon which tells us "this thing may have some things in it you may not want your kids to watch".

Don't get too strung up on terminology. Times change, settings differ, contexts alter. The world's built upon such hypocrisy and that's why it functions. Think of it as a legal safety net: if some mother sends an angry letter complaining to Tom Fulp because her child saw something risqué, Tom can say "It is rated M/A for Mature/Adult, we did not go around promoting porn to little kids". In the end, I think just having a little blue M is a small prize to pay for the artist as opposed to having it censored. You may not agree with it, but informing the general population is what matters, and this population happens to have agreed that nipples are a bit naughty.

Conclusion
Today, I learned that they actually made a Kirikou game for the PC, Playstation and Gameboy Color.

Thank you for your time Test-Object, glad you liked it. Yeah I pretty see what you mean, there is pretty much mix bag reaction over this kind of situation. That why I was deeply concerned about my own work in this kind of condition, as for Kirikou, I want to share, through my character Djeneba, the african fairy tales through her and not mutilate what is the representation of some nowday culture. And yeah, true, the fact that some people may be shock would requiere a little warning. And yes, you right, even with this always living hypocresy on this subject, gladly, some place seems to be able to understand this kind of approach. Yes, now I more understand the approach you mean here with Tom, it's maybe for that reason and to avoid any problem that is way more frisky about this subject. Gladly, it's stay that I respect newgrounds rules so far, even it's not meet my requierement, I understand better this situation and it's perfectly respectable.

And for the end, I totally understand this point. Not to sound "mainstream" but we know how the mass population don't usually make any philosophic approach or questionning their own situation. Dumb show on TV, dumb magazine and so on. I may be wrong of course. But anyway, because of this artistic approach and with the good intention I still believe things can be changed about this subject. (Not on newgrounds of course, if they deceide to avoid problem I accept it as it is) Not believing alone, but because a lot of people and arts plateform seems to be also in this way, which is kinda reassuring.

Anyway, to say that I totally understand your point of view and you make a point, I hope it's will change for sure. Thanks your understanding.

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 5/21/14 07:25 PM, 312274 wrote: Wow, just wow dude. I don't know what all this struggling is about with you, but obviously you want that "I'm so right, look at me".

Excuse me, sir, but I'm not. You very defintiely are, and it's a bit of a shame that you've decided to get aggressive over it.

The fact that you DON'T want to even to believe that for some people or any other place than newgrounds, breasts are not considered as mature, is clearly INSANE. I understand that for some people it can be, but if for me it's not and I wanted to be sure about newgrounds approach, it will stay not for me dude, back on planet earth, there is 7 billons people here with differents opinions, culture and experience in life than you, deal with it.

7 billions of people.
And one of you. As I said, you are the only person who has a serious problem with it, and it is a standard based system.

A least there is people that understand my problem in a more mature way than trying just to crush their opinion on other as "obvious", calling their action petty, and not wanting to admit any kind of differents opinions , sticking the tag "idiot" or "bad guy" on them.

Firstly, it is obvious. It's been told to you repeatedly in the thread.
Secondly, I never called you an idiot or a bad guy. Deleting your artwork in response to having your rating changed is simply petty.

[Luwano]

Yes, there are more than 7 billion people with different opinions and 99.99% of them will consider uncovered female breasts as "nude".

The fact that it's displayed in art is unrelated to the classification as "nude" or "not nude". It can very well be nude AND displayed in art. Stop talking like these two exclude each other. Same goes for documentaries.

It's not censorship, since your art piece was still available both via your profile as well as the art portal (before you deleted it).

What you criticize as people "taking it for granted" or regarding something as "obvious" is actually a good and valuable thing called "common sense". That's where the "common" bit comes into play.

What really makes me curious is... why did you get so angry about such an relatively minor thing as a changed rating? You know the mod who did this, tried to do you a favor, don't you? It's not a punishment or anything.

[theclassybutler]

I know I am late to the party, but here's my two cents.

You should not worry about what constitutes maturity or immaturity because of content alone. Fearing backlash for making something sexy just for sexiness' sake is immature, while drawing the sexual thing just for being sexual, in and of itself is not. If you want to express your desire for something sexually appealing to you, go for it. That does not make you immature. Fearing backlash for it, or reacting negatively to analysis and critique is.

However, drawing anything sexual in a more expressive and mature manner will make your artwork appear more mature. If you explore something deeper than just the sexual realm for sex's sake, you're advancing your art form and doing something more mature.

Drawing what you want is not immature. That's just drawing what you want, and content should not matter for the most part. However, what really makes or breaks the whole "is it mature" thing is how you, as an artist handle feedback.

The people at Hi-Rez studios, the studio responsible for SMITE are immature and have a lot of growing up to do. Why? They changed several characters' designs because of a fear of backlash when there was really no concern in terms of character design in the first place. The characters, in this case, or gods, were all pretty much in line with historical depiction, mostly nude or not. Kali's design was in line with how she was depicted throughout Hindu history, until her design was changed all because of the fear of backlash. It was stupid to change her design, and it really showed how NOT to handle character design. You should not change a character design just because "some people" find it offensive. If they don't want to play your game because of how a character looks, then that's on them. Those people should now, however, that they are missing out on what looks like a wonderful gaming experience.

I know I am rambling, but here's a summary:

Draw what you love and don't fear the haters, but listen to those trying to help you. Don't fear backlash because "some people" get offended and remember that it's someone else's choice whether or not to look at your art. If they got offended because they saw something offensive on your art and they criticize you for it, they have no right to talk because they made the conscious decision to look.

Maturity is defined by how you as an artist handle feedback, and it is best you keep this in mind. How you handle things will make or break you.

Also, I know I said "draw what you love and don't fear backlash", but don't go drawing child porn. EVER.

[312274]

At 5/21/14 07:48 PM, Luwano wrote:

Yes, there are more than 7 billion people with different opinions and 99.99% of them will consider uncovered female breasts as "nude".

The fact that it's displayed in art is unrelated to the classification as "nude" or "not nude". It can very well be nude AND displayed in art. Stop talking like these two exclude each other. Same goes for documentaries.

It's not censorship, since your art piece was still available both via your profile as well as the art portal (before you deleted it).

What you criticize as people "taking it for granted" or regarding something as "obvious" is actually a good and valuable thing called "common sense". That's where the "common" bit comes into play.

What really makes me curious is... why did you get so angry about such an relatively minor thing as a changed rating? You know the mod who did this, tried to do you a favor, don't you? It's not a punishment or anything.

1. Curious to know where you get that approach about these 99.99%. Are you basing yourself on what you consider granted or you using real fact? Research, survey? But as says some americans I know, "I'm From Missouri".

2. Actually what you seems to forget, is that nude is used in some arts plateform as the classification of mature. And I'm not even talking about "full nude" here. Which I understand but I'm talking about the topless approach. The point is that I don't consider topless as mature and nude, it's all. The conclusion been already clear with "test-object" upper about this. At this point there is no need to know who is right who is wrong.

3.The actual "common sense" I use is generally philosophy. Sure, the major common sense you talk about can done "good" things, but it's also prooved many times to be blameworthy. And since we are talking about occidentals countries which involve many countries and culture, the "common sense", is also different through people. So here, this "obvious common sense" is totally volatile concept at this rate and I cannot base myself on it or see it as a valuable argument.

4. Hum, I'm not angry about it. I just said what I feel was right and correct. Yes, of course the admin was doing that to help, never been launching myself in hate crusade or something. I think it's Legolass who changed this, I've not been irrespectful to him. Same again, what bother me is all explained with "test-object" answer, that was pretty clear here, I would spare you again all the unlimited blabla. So far, all been answered for me, I keep respecting newgrounds rules decisions what so ever but keeping my opinion, not hate, just incomprehension at first, then knowing newgrounds rules approach just took what I believe is right nothing more, nothing less, no drama :] .

At 5/21/14 08:40 PM, theclassybutler

Mhhh, I can say, your approach is somehow suprisly unique and refreshing I wasn't seeing that way, . Thanks for your critics then Classy butler, I will keep that in mind. Many thanks.

[test-object]

I think the discussion is pretty much done here.

[JackDCurleo]

At 5/21/14 10:03 PM, test-object wrote: I think the discussion is pretty much done here.

Oh my, this one was T-T-T-TASTY.