Privilege

[Camarohusky]

Much has been made of the essay that came out of Princeton recently. Tal Fortgang (with a name like that, no wonder he's bitter) complains about the term privilege and how it's used. He sates that "check your privilege" is often used as a way to automatically exclude those in the majority. He goes on to state that the idea of privilege is a complete falsehood and that it ingores the very unique backgrounds that ALL people have, regardless of race.

I will come out up front and say that he is BOTH right and wrong. He is right in his opinion on the pithy retort "check your privilege" and in the idea that privilege does ignore the person's unique history. However, he is flat out incorrect that privilege does not really exist.

I absolutely ABHOR how the phrase "check your privilege" is used. It is saying "You are part of the majority, therefore your opinion is automatically worth much less, if anything at all." Many people throw this statement around all over the place. Yet if you were to say "you wouldn't know, you're a woman," or "you wouldn't know, you're black," or any other like statement they'd throw a huge shit fit. The idea of privilege is meant to increase INTERNAL understanding, not to shut out partoes you don't want to hear from.

It is aslo very true that privilege misses out on every person's unique circumstances. I mean, Ru Paul has had a much better life than many straight white males out there. The reason it ignores these people is because they're the exception, not the rule. Either way, that's not the purpose of the whole concept. The concept isn't to shame or separate based on certain characeristics. It is meant to understand how one's own advantages or disadvantages affects their view on life and other people.

Fortgang is flat out wrong in that privilege is false. It very much exists. Very few people are entirely privileged, and even fewer have no privilege whatsoever. We all have at least one area of our lives that is largely out of our control that is better than most people, and at least one that is worse off. As a straight white male, there are numerous things in my life I have not had to worry or even think about that women, racial minorities, or gay people have. That is my privilege. Does that mean I am bad? No. It mereley means that my views have been shaped by it, and I lack a certain level of understanding regadring those things I have not had to worry about.

Take your health for example. Very few, if any of you, even think about things like sleeping through the night, or lving to retirement, or being able to complete the simple tasks you have set out for the day. That is your privilege. I, on the other hand, have to think about these issues on a very frequent basis. When you discuss issues such as disability and health, it helps to understand what you do and do not know about what it is like to be disabled or have a serious health problem. With the understanding of your limits, you can better discuss and learn about the subject.

So, I guess the validity of privilege depends on how it is used. Privilege is proper when used as a tool for understanding and reflection. It becomes exactly what it seeks to stop when it used as a shield or a sword to stifle debate.

[AnteHero]

I don't think the absence of suffering which other people endure counts as privilege. Having an advantageous position which others are excluded from is a privilege. For example inheriting wealth or poverty from your family is circumstantial, but inheriting titles and positions over others is privilege.

As for these pre-defined phrases which work their way into our language and stick like cancer, I'm sick of them. Our culture is full of them, you can't escape it. Those of us who actually bother to apply reason to our opinions are constantly faced with over generalized vagueries which contribute nothing to the dialogue. Instead of presenting a superior line of reasoning they simply attack our reasoning, not even attacked with reason, but attacked with implications and assumptions.

[Jackho]

The first half of his retort is based on him being jewish, which kind of defeats the point he'e trying to make.

[Warforger]

I think the main issue with privlege is that people who have it all of a sudden have no right to complain about anything according to some people. So a rich kid who may have issues with his parents is told to stop complaining because he has an IPhone for example. This is mostly because they don't understand the other's circumstance. A similar case is say an IT person in a place where it's mostly manual labor like say an automotive factory. This happens all the time, the IT guy can work as hard as he can and stay up all night and day, but the manual laborers will look down on him/her because they appear to just be sitting on a desk all day. So when pay cuts come around they call for the IT guy/girl to get the cut instead of the hardworking laborers, because they are after all just sitting around while everyone else is breaking sweat.

I guess privilege in the sense that it's the absence of some struggles doesn't mean new ones aren't there. The rich 1% still have as much fear of losing their wealth as the bottom 99%. Income inequality affects rich people too like it affects poor people because it correlates with feelings of superiority/inferiority which in turn correlate with the rate of mental illness, which is why the US has the highest rate of mental illness in the world (bearing in mind most countries don't have the ability to count their mentally ill, but countries in the mid-high development range do and the US exceeds them all). The problem is that antagonisms arise due to the misunderstanding of each others situations, which is why "privilege" is even an issue to begin with.

[Korriken]

The problem I have with the whole issue of 'privilege' is when it's leveraged and used as a weapon to silence dissent.

So, I'm a straight white male, exactly WHAT advantages does that get me? I can't seem to find them. I'm as dirt poor as everyone else who has to work for their opportunity at a better life.

These so called 'privileges' I get for being white straight and male are not apparent to me. When I was homeless, I lived in the woods in a tent. There were no shelters for men, only women. There are no white specific holidays, or male specific holidays, there are no white or male specific scholarships (well beyond that one token scholarship that was quickly demonized and shot down as 'racist'), and I can't for the life of my find this barrel of money I'm supposed to have for being born white, male, and straight.

As far as white male privilege goes, I can't seem to find it.

Then again, maybe i AM privileged. Privileged with the ability to adapt and survive whatever situation I'm thrown in. Maybe I'm privileged in the concept that my mother cared so little for me as to provide me with no guidance in my life that has landed me in all of the bad situations that I've pulled through that makes me who I am today.

Oh wait, never mind. That's not privilege, that's just life's circumstances, life's trials and tribulations that I managed to survive and pulled through using my stubbornness and wits.

White privilege? Male privilege? These phrases are nothing more than tools that are leveraged against others, a convenient tool to silence someone when you have no actual rebuttal to something they say. "Check your privilege"? I'd probably end up in thrown out of school if some professor said that in rebuttal to something I said. I'd stand up and loudly demand a proper rebuttal and end up getting in his face as he insistently spouts his little catchphrase.

[MOSFET]

I don't think the idea of "check your privilege" is wrong. There is a lack of humility for people who do work hard to get ahead, without realizing that being a certain race or gender can help open opportunities.

I think "check your privilege" shouldn't be taken as your criticism or opinion is wrong, but that you need to acknowledge that your success isn't entire due to your hard work, but due to the institutional racism/classism/sexism prevalent in the system. And even the reverse could be true as well with Welfare and Affirmative Action.

I don't see why this would be a conversation stopper, unless you have trouble acknowledging it, and your whole point is that not only does racism doesn't exist but neither does institutional racism. Then yeah, I can see someone getting beaten over the head with this statement over an over.

[Korriken]

At 5/3/14 11:14 PM, MOSFET wrote:
I think "check your privilege" shouldn't be taken as your criticism or opinion is wrong, but that you need to acknowledge that your success isn't entire due to your hard work, but due to the institutional racism/classism/sexism prevalent in the system. And even the reverse could be true as well with Welfare and Affirmative Action.

This is the problem I have with the whole "check your privilege" thing. Your success isn't entirely due to your hard work? the hell it isn't. Unless you were born into a wealthy family, or actually DID have some sort of huge advantage growing up, then no, there IS no privilege and your success IS because of your hard work.

The problem I have is that people just ASSUME that because your have pale skin and a penis that you have some sort of major advantage over others when it simply is not true.

[Feoric]

At 5/4/14 12:20 AM, Korriken wrote: The problem I have is that people just ASSUME that because your have pale skin and a penis that you have some sort of major advantage over others when it simply is not true.

Well, to a certain degree it actually is. Males, on average, earn more than their female counterparts. This is a factual, observable thing. Institutional racism is also a real thing but, unlike wage inequality, this is generally not a quantitative thing. Racial profiling is definitely a real 'unofficial' policy most police departments carry out, for one example. Perhaps "check your privilege" isn't the most effective way of making people aware of the fact that people most definitely get treated differently in society simply by their race/gender/orientation, and I'm not sure privilege is even the right term to be using in the first place, but certain people can definitely be in an advantageous position compared to the rest of the general populace simply by virtue of one or more of their characteristics.

[Korriken]

At 5/4/14 12:41 AM, Feoric wrote:

Well, to a certain degree it actually is. Males, on average, earn more than their female counterparts. This is a factual, observable thing.

I'll give you this one, sort of. If a male and female have the same level of ability and the same amount of time put into a job, then they should be paid the same. I just wonder if those who 'researched' the pay gap looked at such things, or simply looked at male and female wages and said, "Ahah! Gotcha!" I don't personally know, but there are a lot of variants that go into how much someone gets paid.

Institutional racism is also a real thing but, unlike wage inequality, this is generally not a quantitative thing.

This one I tend to not acknowledge, or at least not to the degree people claim it to be. There is racism and sexism still in America, sure, but it's not necessarily to the white man's advantage.

Racial profiling is definitely a real 'unofficial' policy most police departments carry out, for one example. Perhaps "check your privilege" isn't the most effective way of making people aware of the fact that people most definitely get treated differently in society simply by their race/gender/orientation, and I'm not sure privilege is even the right term to be using in the first place, but certain people can definitely be in an advantageous position compared to the rest of the general populace simply by virtue of one or more of their characteristics.

Most police departments? That's a pretty bold claim. Let's see some proof.

Also, I'll agree that privilege is the wrong word to use, but it does conjure up images of wealthy people on yachts and lavish parties, which I suppose may be the point. It also depends on what part of the country you live in. If you're in some white trash hick town, then being black may be a major disadvantage thanks to backwater hicks and their Jim Crow era thinking. however, if you were in a majority black town, like I grew up in, being white was not only NOT an advantage, it was an outright disadvantage.

I suppose my biggest issue with the whole 'white/male/etc privilege' concept is it really depends on the circumstances. There are jobs in which ONLY females can work, some in which females are preferred, and some in which various minorities are preferred or even needed. Most 'ethnic' restaurants would prefer someone of the proper ethnicity to be the waiter for authenticity purposes. Then again, a lot of them are also owned and completely run by family members.

[Warforger]

At 5/4/14 03:30 PM, Korriken wrote: I'll give you this one, sort of. If a male and female have the same level of ability and the same amount of time put into a job, then they should be paid the same. I just wonder if those who 'researched' the pay gap looked at such things, or simply looked at male and female wages and said, "Ahah! Gotcha!" I don't personally know, but there are a lot of variants that go into how much someone gets paid.

They didn't in fact they've been trying to determine how much of it is simply education i.e. what degree's women and men get because men are more likely to be in the hard sciences than women are and those are more profitable, as well as capital, background etc.. Each study comes up with different numbers for these things but they do note that things are improving that women are more and more likely to earn closer to what a male is earning.

[Camarohusky]

At 5/4/14 03:30 PM, Korriken wrote: I suppose my biggest issue with the whole 'white/male/etc privilege' concept is it really depends on the circumstances.

I already discuessed this. There are a bunch of situations where privilege doesn't apply very well. However, privilege was never meant to be a concept of specifics. It is meant to address the overwhelming amount of the time where not being part of the minority manifests itself as a leg up. Just because there may be 10-25% of the time where this is not true doesn't change that the remaining 75-90% of the time it is true.

I do agree with your point that the term and its usage creates a false implication. Not all white people are sipping caviar and drinking fine wine because they don't have to worry about being pulled over because of their race. However, it cannot be denied that the lack of having to worry about such things is a type of privilege in that white people are privileged to be judged more often by their acts than their color.

[Feoric]

At 5/4/14 03:30 PM, Korriken wrote: I'll give you this one, sort of. If a male and female have the same level of ability and the same amount of time put into a job, then they should be paid the same.

Well that's kinda the point -- that's not the case. As you say, there are many reasons as to why this is not the case, and Warforger touches upon some of those reasons, but the point is that despite varying methodologies spanning several decades, studies show time and time again that there is a clear and present pay gap with males in favor of earning more. This doesn't even touch upon other gender issues like harassment in the workplace which disproportionately affects women, especially in male-dominant fields.

This one I tend to not acknowledge, or at least not to the degree people claim it to be. There is racism and sexism still in America, sure, but it's not necessarily to the white man's advantage.

I don't see why, there's no shortage of material on the subject. For one example, it's easy to see how this plays out with the outcomes of routine traffic stops:

"From 23 possible outcome variables in the data, Briggs constructed a dependent variable that consisted of four mutually exclusive traffic stop outcomes. He used multinomial statistical techniques to estimate the strongest predictors of each of these outcomes.

[..]

When compared with men, women were 23 percent less likely to be ticketed, 55 percent less likely to be arrested and 76 percent less likely to be searched when stopped by police. Women were more likely to only receive a warning or have no outcome when stopped by police during a traffic stop.

Black and Hispanic drivers were significantly more likely to be searched, ticketed and arrested than white drivers when stopped by police. For example, black drivers were more than twice as likely to be searched or arrested when compared with white drivers. Hispanic drivers were almost three times as likely to be searched when compared with white drivers.
By combining data dealing with race and gender, Briggs found the differences between men and women do not hold up for all races. Out of all racial and ethnic categories of male and female drivers, white women were most likely to receive a perceived benefit in a traffic stop, such as receiving only a warning or no outcome at all. But the same is not true for black and Hispanic women, who were just as likely as white men to be ticketed, arrested or searched instead of receiving a warning or no outcome.

Black and Hispanic men were the most likely to be ticketed, arrested or searched during a traffic stop. Black men were 2.5 times as likely as white men to be arrested and twice as likely to be searched. Hispanic men were 1.5 times as likely as white men to receive a ticket and more than three times as likely to be searched."

Most police departments? That's a pretty bold claim. Let's see some proof.

This goes back to what I said earlier: this tends to not be a quantitative thing, at least not on a nationwide scale. In other words, there's no study that examines every police department in the United States. So, in a nutshell, I can't really prove this claim. However, of all the studies I've seen that examined intra-department data and published their findings, rarely if ever was there not a disproportionate race gap. Personally, I think it would be naive to suggest that this isn't a common phenomena not seen anywhere else. Whether this comes down to policy, some other psychological method or a combination of both remains to be seen on a nationwide scale, but when you get more specific and examine certain departments (NYPD, LAPD) the policy is definitely there.

Also, I'll agree that privilege is the wrong word to use, but it does conjure up images of wealthy people on yachts and lavish parties, which I suppose may be the point. It also depends on what part of the country you live in. If you're in some white trash hick town, then being black may be a major disadvantage thanks to backwater hicks and their Jim Crow era thinking. however, if you were in a majority black town, like I grew up in, being white was not only NOT an advantage, it was an outright disadvantage.

I suppose my biggest issue with the whole 'white/male/etc privilege' concept is it really depends on the circumstances. There are jobs in which ONLY females can work, some in which females are preferred, and some in which various minorities are preferred or even needed. Most 'ethnic' restaurants would prefer someone of the proper ethnicity to be the waiter for authenticity purposes. Then again, a lot of them are also owned and completely run by family members.

Yeah I think it's worth stressing that 'privilege' does not necessarily extend to exclusively one group of people at all times and circumstances.

[Camarohusky]

At 5/4/14 07:23 PM, Feoric wrote: Yeah I think it's worth stressing that 'privilege' does not necessarily extend to exclusively one group of people at all times and circumstances.

Absolutely. I am a straight white male who has never been poor. I may not be religious, but in my corner of the country that is hardly abnormal or even frowned upon. So, I may look like a perfect example of privilege, but as I mentioned before, when it comes to health and disability, I am not privileged.

Same goes for a transgender person who happens to be white. While they may suffer the ill effects of society's view on transgendered folk, they reap the benefits of society's views of white people.

VERY few people would be considered entirely privileged or entirely non-privileged. Hell, even Mitt Romney, by virtue of being Mormon, has an aspect of his life that is not privileged, and he's the poster child of being privileged.

[LazyDrunk]

At 5/5/14 12:03 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 5/4/14 07:23 PM, Feoric wrote: Yeah I think it's worth stressing that 'privilege' does not necessarily extend to exclusively one group of people at all times and circumstances.

Absolutely. I am a straight white male who has never been poor. I may not be religious, but in my corner of the country that is hardly abnormal or even frowned upon. So, I may look like a perfect example of privilege, but as I mentioned before, when it comes to health and disability, I am not privileged.

Do you think your specific situation can be cast in the same mold as every other American, regardless of race or familial income?

When I see discussions like this one (I read the thread in General that first linked this article) I can't help but look at the argument as a simple problem. Are we trying, as a society, to achieve equal opportunity, or equal outcomes? When white male privilege is brought up in discussion, how are you any different from a mixed-race person? An immigrant?

We all have our own stories and beginnings. We won't all have the same American experience. Marginalizing or penalizing white males for their ancestors role in the formation of the country should be kept scientific, precise and justified. Skin color has no place in policymaking decisions that are aimed at equalizing affairs of the nation. As soon as you take that factor into account, as a positive or a negative, you've gone racist.

Same goes for a transgender person who happens to be white. While they may suffer the ill effects of society's view on transgendered folk, they reap the benefits of society's views of white people.

I don't get it.

VERY few people would be considered entirely privileged or entirely non-privileged. Hell, even Mitt Romney, by virtue of being Mormon, has an aspect of his life that is not privileged, and he's the poster child of being privileged.

Do you think being white trumps all other aspects of one's life?

[Camarohusky]

At 5/5/14 09:42 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: Do you think your specific situation can be cast in the same mold as every other American, regardless of race or familial income?

No and I have addressed this multiple times already. The concept of privilege trades out specificity for generality. It ovelooks the 10-25% of exceptions in favor of the 75-90% of cases that fit the bill.

When I see discussions like this one (I read the thread in General that first linked this article) I can't help but look at the argument as a simple problem. Are we trying, as a society, to achieve equal opportunity, or equal outcomes? When white male privilege is brought up in discussion, how are you any different from a mixed-race person? An immigrant?

Again, I have also addressed this. Privilege when used as a wedge or a retort is bad. It become exactly what it means to stop. Privilege when used as a tool for understanding is helpful. An example of this is when talking about minority fear of profiling, for a white person to understand that they far more likely than not lack the entire experience of being negatively racially profiled by a police agency, and when discussing to realize that our lack of this experience shapes our lack of fear of such encounters.

We all have our own stories and beginnings. We won't all have the same American experience. Marginalizing or penalizing white males for their ancestors role in the formation of the country should be kept scientific, precise and justified. Skin color has no place in policymaking decisions that are aimed at equalizing affairs of the nation. As soon as you take that factor into account, as a positive or a negative, you've gone racist.

It's not about policy making. It's not about division. It's about understanding what benefits you have gained based on your status, and what experiences you have not had to deal with based on your status. It's easy for an able body to say Medicare should go, because you don't have to worry about it. You don't know what it's like to be kept alive solely by an epensive bit of modern medicine that few could afford without Medicare. Understanding that this is how I live my life can help you to understand why I feel the way I do about health related issues.

I don't get it.

You're acting as if privilege where black and white (pun not intended). It's not. Damn near everyone has at least one aspect of their life in which they're privileged and one in which they're disadvantaged. The trans person may be largely disadvantaged, but unlike a straight/cis black person they do not have to deal with stigmas associated with being black. A straight white male christian sounds like they're heavily advantaged, but they may have been born inot a family well below the pverty line and thus are not privileged when it comes to money.

Do you think being white trumps all other aspects of one's life?

No, but the fact you can't seem to get passed it makes me think you do.

[LazyDrunk]

At 5/5/14 10:19 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 5/5/14 09:42 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: Do you think your specific situation can be cast in the same mold as every other American, regardless of race or familial income?

No and I have addressed this multiple times already. The concept of privilege trades out specificity for generality. It ovelooks the 10-25% of exceptions in favor of the 75-90% of cases that fit the bill.

Yeah, I've followed you that far. Could you please give me an example of the 75-90% of cases, and what exactly those entail?

Generally speaking, racism is racism.

When I see discussions like this one (I read the thread in General that first linked this article) I can't help but look at the argument as a simple problem. Are we trying, as a society, to achieve equal opportunity, or equal outcomes? When white male privilege is brought up in discussion, how are you any different from a mixed-race person? An immigrant?

Again, I have also addressed this. Privilege when used as a wedge or a retort is bad. It become exactly what it means to stop. Privilege when used as a tool for understanding is helpful. An example of this is when talking about minority fear of profiling, for a white person to understand that they far more likely than not lack the entire experience of being negatively racially profiled by a police agency, and when discussing to realize that our lack of this experience shapes our lack of fear of such encounters.

So there DOES exist a collective mindset? Or is this the generaliztion you spoke of before, where 3/4 adhere to race-fearing thoughts? Is the police force you speak of a white institution? Or is this another 3/4 generalization?

Is our (white) lack of (assumed) fear something our society needs to fix?

We all have our own stories and beginnings. We won't all have the same American experience. Marginalizing or penalizing white males for their ancestors role in the formation of the country should be kept scientific, precise and justified. Skin color has no place in policymaking decisions that are aimed at equalizing affairs of the nation. As soon as you take that factor into account, as a positive or a negative, you've gone racist.

It's not about policy making. It's not about division. It's about understanding what benefits you have gained based on your status, and what experiences you have not had to deal with based on your status.

You claim my status as white male, and a healthy white male at that, gives me a special benefit nobody else enjoys, outside their racial caste. My status is indeed about division, because the origins of my white maleness have given me, according to you, a gain.

Which is it?

It's easy for an able body to say Medicare should go, because you don't have to worry about it. You don't know what it's like to be kept alive solely by an epensive bit of modern medicine that few could afford without Medicare. Understanding that this is how I live my life can help you to understand why I feel the way I do about health related issues.

You feel the way you do because you hold prejudice against people who aren't afflicted like you. That prejudice, that because they are able-bodied, leads you do believe they owe you something for your misfortune.

It's easy for anyone to say their interests supercede the interests of others. You feel the way you do because you want what's best for you.

I don't get it.

You're acting as if privilege where black and white (pun not intended). It's not. Damn near everyone has at least one aspect of their life in which they're privileged and one in which they're disadvantaged. The trans person may be largely disadvantaged, but unlike a straight/cis black person they do not have to deal with stigmas associated with being black. A straight white male christian sounds like they're heavily advantaged, but they may have been born inot a family well below the pverty line and thus are not privileged when it comes to money.

To me, when you talk privilege, you are talking about something that grants a bona fide advantage.

Sounds like the entire argument of white privilege is a crock of shit; nobody gives you stuff because you are white with a penis.

Do you think being white trumps all other aspects of one's life?

No, but the fact you can't seem to get passed it makes me think you do.

I think race-baiting is comical.

I think liberals like to stretch reality to fit their own personal power-grabbing agendas, and white privilege is another one the vehicles driving the movement.

[LazyDrunk]

At 5/5/14 12:02 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: I think liberals like to stretch reality to fit their own personal power-grabbing agendas, and white privilege is another one the vehicles driving the movement.

from wiki:
"The term denotes both obvious and less obvious unspoken advantages that white persons may not recognize they have, which distinguishes it from overt bias or prejudice.[1] These include cultural affirmations of one's own worth; presumed greater social status; and freedom to move, buy, work, play, and speak freely"

Does this work for the purposes of our discussion?

"The notion of white privilege raises the question of the difference between rights and privileges. Lewis Gordon rejects the idea of white privilege, arguing that the privileges from which whites as a group are supposed to benefit are, in fact, social goods to which all people aspire. As such, he writes, they are not privileges"

Do you feel this statement is pure semantics? Or does it hold weight in your mind?

[MOSFET]

At 5/5/14 12:02 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
To me, when you talk privilege, you are talking about something that grants a bona fide advantage.

Sounds like the entire argument of white privilege is a crock of shit; nobody gives you stuff because you are white with a penis.

I think race-baiting is comical.

I think liberals like to stretch reality to fit their own personal power-grabbing agendas, and white privilege is another one the vehicles driving the movement.

except

Discrimination in Science
http://www.economist.com/node/21526320
Discrimination in Housing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_discrimination_in_the_United_States_housing_market

Odds are if you are fighting for the same job as a white male vs an equally qualified black male, the white male will tend to get the job. Although there are laws that protect against such behavior, there is still an inclination to hire from one particular group over another,

'Privilege' is not a matter of getting something, but of social mobility. While you still have to work hard for what you earn, it's much easier if you are in a favored group because of an uneven competitive field.

[Camarohusky]

At 5/5/14 12:02 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: So there DOES exist a collective mindset? Or is this the generaliztion you spoke of before, where 3/4 adhere to race-fearing thoughts? Is the police force you speak of a white institution? Or is this another 3/4 generalization?

Like it or not, racism does exist. As a white male, you don't get much of it, and when you do it's largely so miniscule that it has no real effect.

Is our (white) lack of (assumed) fear something our society needs to fix?

I'm wondering if you're intentionally misunderstanding so you can turn this into a white people are the victim shit story. White people's large lack of experience when it comes to racial profiling is not something that needs to be fixed. It needs to be taken into account when talking about racial profiling. You, being white, are much more likely to deny that racial profiling eists and ignore it when discussing rcism because you have never experienced it. You cannot fully discuss racism if you leave out parts or don't believe they exist. When minroties express fear of the police, and a whit eperson responds "well, if you haven't done anything bad, you have nothing to worry about" they are showing how little they understand about the situation and not helping the actual discussion. THIS is the sort of disconnect privilege is meant to help bridge.

You claim my status as white male, and a healthy white male at that, gives me a special benefit nobody else enjoys, outside their racial caste. My status is indeed about division, because the origins of my white maleness have given me, according to you, a gain.

This is like hitting my head against a brick wall. You're so zealous about being "woe is me, I'm white, I have it SOOOOOOOOOOO BAAAAAAAAAAAD" that you're issing the whole point. The point isn't to single you out. It;s to get you to realize that you ARE different. EVERYONE is different, and much of our experiences are shaped by mere status of who we are and our uncontrollable life circumstances. Yes, as a white person, or a male, or a Chirstian, or a wealthy prson, or an able bodied person, or a straight person (the list goes on) you DO get things easier than those who do not fall under these categories. You take it as singling you out (that reaction being a major sign of pirivilege as you've rarely had to experience a possible negative question or reaction regarding your status), when in reality it's merely asking you to step back and ask yourself, when it comes to the issue in which you have privilege, How much do you really understand of what it is like to be one of the "other guys"

Which is it?

It's a complex answer, so I suggest you turn on your thinking brain for this subject.

You feel the way you do because you hold prejudice against people who aren't afflicted like you. That prejudice, that because they are able-bodied, leads you do believe they owe you something for your misfortune.

ANNNNND here comes the root of your denseness. You personally believe that when anyone has to struggle for something, they automatically hate you for having it good. It's the "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" complex. Nobody here hates you because you're healthy. I hate no one because they're healthy. Do I occasionally ask "why me?" Yeah, what kind of fool would I be if I didn't? But in reality, what about me needing $20K/month worth of treatment to maintain an extremely substandard life and trudging through an existence where I am constantly dealing with some sort of health issue would make me hate a healthy person?

It's easy for anyone to say their interests supercede the interests of others. You feel the way you do because you want what's best for you.

To me, when you talk privilege, you are talking about something that grants a bona fide advantage.

Such as not being profiled (white). Not being cat called by everything with a penis (male). Not being called a heathen for how you spend your Sundays (Christian). Not being told you're a constant sinner (straight). Being able to do dialy acitivies without worrying whether you can comlete them (healthy).

These ar ejust small examples too. You could very easily add 10-20 more issues, some of them quite large, to these subjects as well.

Sounds like the entire argument of white privilege is a crock of shit; nobody gives you stuff because you are white with a penis.

True, few things are given to white penises, however, unlike back vaginas few things are taken away.

I think liberals like to stretch reality to fit their own personal power-grabbing agendas, and white privilege is another one the vehicles driving the movement.

You think this because you've never once tried to think about what it is like to not be a white male. You think it is racist to understand others, and to understand your own failings. I also seriously doubt you have the intellectual depth it takes to understand a concept such as "walking in someone else's shows." Like the typical Conservative it's all about the "royal me" and everyone can suck on the shits you are so eager to drop upon them.

[LazyDrunk]

At 5/5/14 07:19 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 5/5/14 12:02 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: So there DOES exist a collective mindset? Or is this the generaliztion you spoke of before, where 3/4 adhere to race-fearing thoughts? Is the police force you speak of a white institution? Or is this another 3/4 generalization?

Like it or not, racism does exist.

Yeah, I know it does. I'm saying this white privilege nonsense is yet another race-fueled, hate-filled, ignorance-spreading euphemism for overt racism.

Don't be a part of it.

As a white male, you don't get much of it, and when you do it's largely so miniscule that it has no real effect.

Bravo. Simply put, because I don't cry loud enough, I'm not a victim? Some purified logic you've got showcased here.

Is our (white) lack of (assumed) fear something our society needs to fix?

I'm wondering if you're intentionally misunderstanding so you can turn this into a white people are the victim shit story.

Go back and look at the context if you're confused. When you are talking about white privilege, whites are the victim.

You don't need a doctorate to deduce that camarohusky.

Which is it?
You feel the way you do because you hold prejudice against people who aren't afflicted like you. That prejudice, that because they are able-bodied, leads you do believe they owe you something for your misfortune.

ANNNNND here comes the root of your denseness.

Would you like it if I re-quoted the text that elicited this response, or would the irony overwhelm your disadvantaged self?

[LazyDrunk]

At 5/5/14 07:19 PM, Camarohusky wrote: You think this because you've never once tried to think about what it is like to not be a white male. You think it is racist to understand others, and to understand your own failings. I also seriously doubt you have the intellectual depth it takes to understand a concept such as "walking in someone else's shows." Like the typical Conservative it's all about the "royal me" and everyone can suck on the shits you are so eager to drop upon them.

I think you've been brainwashed into thinking you deserve things you don't.

It's easy for an able body to say Medicare should go, because you don't have to worry about it. You don't know what it's like to be kept alive solely by an epensive bit of modern medicine that few could afford without Medicare. Understanding that this is how I live my life can help you to understand why I feel the way I do about health related issues.

You feel the way you do because you hold prejudice against people who aren't afflicted like you. That prejudice, that because they are able-bodied, leads you do believe they owe you something for your misfortune.

You do what you do because you want to survive. Unfortunately, survival doesn't favor those who cry the loudest, beg the longest and contribute the least.

Good luck.

[Camarohusky]

Lazy, I'm tired of arguing the details with someone who cannot or chooses not to understand them. So, how about you use 2-3 sentences to discuss your main point. (i.e. why did you even respond on this thread and what are you getting at?)

You clearly are trying to aim toward a certain point, and I would like you to affirmatively state it.

[LazyDrunk]

At 5/6/14 01:46 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Lazy, I'm tired of arguing the details with someone who cannot or chooses not to understand them.

Fantastic. The details of what white (male) privilege truly is, a hypocritical prejudicial pigeonholing based on generalized historical miscontext, transferred onto unwitting white males of today.

You say "it's easier". I say "get a fucking job you lazy NGer".

And most of the NGers I know are white. Is that insensitive? Yeah, of course. It isn't racist by a long shot. Attempting to take something away from a white male because they are a white male is incredibly racist and somewhat infuriating.

Banned words suck dick.

So, how about you use 2-3 sentences to discuss your main point. (i.e. why did you even respond on this thread and what are you getting at?)

The whole idea of white privilege is based on pseudo-science and overt racism.

Your retort of, "well, you just can't see it" is even more ignorant and makes me want you to live life without the thought people owe you anything.

Because they don't.

You clearly are trying to aim toward a certain point, and I would like you to affirmatively state it.

My point is that your philosophical foundation is built on sand.

[Feoric]

At 5/7/14 07:08 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: You say "it's easier". I say "get a fucking job you lazy NGer".

lmao

[Camarohusky]

At 5/7/14 07:08 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Attempting to take something away from a white male because they are a white male is incredibly racist and somewhat infuriating.

This is the problem. You think the term privilege has ANYTHING to do with taking something away. You're knee-jerking so hard at the mere thought that white paople may have it easier than others (when, I have made the point numerous times, that race isn't the only privilege) that you immediately assume "the MAN" is out to get you. Guess what? Privilege isn't meant to take anything away, and I'm having a hard time seeing where you're getting this complete and utter falsehood. It's merely a shorthand way to tell people to walk in another's shoes. If you cannot admit that there are numerous things you do not have to worry about solely because you are white, you cannot adequate address the actual racial reality of this country.

I have pointed out an easy one, and yet you keep ingoring it. Racial profiling. White people always wonder with complete amazement why the police and the law are held in such low regard in minority communities. The fact that minorities get targetted solely because of their skin is an experience white people cannot fathom because it does not happen to white people. If you were pulled over numerous times and asked for proof of citizenship on a routine basis, you would build up a resentment for the police and the law.

It is THIS sort of understanding that the concept of privilege is meant to foster. It is the case law upon which proper and adequate legal decisions are made. It is the specifications upon which a part is properly manufactured. It is the blueprint upon which a house is built. Privilege is the understanding of the experiences and feelings that allow for racism to handled properly. That's all it is.

You may be conflating this with the offensive or defensive types, where a person either uses it pre-emptively or reactively to stifle opion, and I agree (something you'd know several times over if you'd read the entire thread) that this is horrifically wrong, because it does EVERYTHING you complain about. However, I'm not talking about misused privilege, I'm talking about the proper use of it. Like religion, when used properly it can greatly enrich and benefit all, when used improperly it can cause a great deal of harm.

The whole idea of white privilege is based on pseudo-science and overt racism.

It is based on overt racism. The recent study that showed white males (based solely on the whiteness and maleness of their names) recieved 25% more help at college is an example of this. Racial profiling is an example of this. Cliven Bundy being a hero among millions even though he said black people were better off as slaves is an example of this. These examples are everywhere, you just have to actually accept that they exist to notice them.

Your retort of, "well, you just can't see it" is even more ignorant and makes me want you to live life without the thought people owe you anything.
Because they don't.

Whoever said that I think people owe me anything? I don't recall saying that. I'm merely saying, that you cannot fix a prolem unless you understand it fully. Shouting at the top of your lungs that a problem doesn't exist doesn't actually make it go away. Shit, if that could work, I'd be healthy right now.

My point is that your philosophical foundation is built on sand.

You have made that abundantly clear. What you haven't made clear (or really attempted to make clear) is ANY sort of logic or reasonig beyond the "FOX News" style retort of "You're wrong, and that means I'm right because I said you're wrong." If you want to prove my logic isn't sound, go ahead, PROVE IT.

Playing the victim and then trying to say I'm the boogeyman out to get you while you sleep, are NOT valid debating points. The latter being odd as I am a white male myself, and rank quite high on the level of privilege in my life.

[Korriken]

I knew the rabbit hole ran deep, but holy shit.....

There is actually a CONFERENCE on "white privilege" where teachers are taught how to indoctrinate our children into having this kind of White Guilt/Whites are Racist mentality. They even teach that "white" people didn't even exist until 1681.... ok.....

And oh yeah, the Tea Party is the enemy and you become racist by joining it and the longer you stay in it the more racist you become.

I feel sorry for these children who are being fed this mountain of bull shit and even more sorry for the parents who send their children to school to get an education so they can succeed in life to instead be brainwashed into believing that only the white man can make it because there is a system set up that holds all non whites down.

I pity the white father who comes home from work to hear his child tell him how he's sorry for being white and how he's ashamed of how he was born. I pity the minority father who comes home from work to see his child give up because he 'knows' that he can't succeed because his teacher told him so due to the color of his skin.

This indoctrination does more to drive a wedge between races than anything that has happened since the 60's.

I would personally be enraged for my child to come home and tell me that his teacher told him he should be ashamed of being born white and male.

[Feoric]

"White supremacy has been embedded in the United States of America from its founding" is a completely factual statement, I'm not sure why dark ominous music needs to be playing in the background. This isn't even a subjective thing, it's an actual objective statement based on historical fact. Building on top of that, "And if you don't understand that, you can't actually understand how the country is developing and has developed" is also a completely rational statement to make and is actually a good point. Where you go from there is where the controversy should begin (if there is ever to be controversy in the first place), not pointing out obvious consequences that transpired from the literal foundation of the country.

"white privilege"

"Just-world fallacy"

[LazyDrunk]

At 5/7/14 11:08 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 5/7/14 07:08 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Attempting to take something away from a white male because they are a white male is incredibly racist and somewhat infuriating.

This is the problem. You think the term privilege has ANYTHING to do with taking something away. Privilege isn't meant to take anything away, and I'm having a hard time seeing where you're getting this complete and utter falsehood. It's merely a shorthand way to tell people to walk in another's shoes.

No, it isn't. Telling someone to walk a mile in their moccasins isn't the same as saying you've got shit easy because of your color, that you haven't earned or deserve what others may find difficult. What you've been saying is that due to skin color, I'm guilty of oppressing minorities by belonging to said skin color group. Institutional racism is what you've been talking about. Empathy is not.

I won't pity someone because of their skin color, and I won't apologize for mine. If you've got a problem with what color I am, I have a problem with you.

If you cannot admit that there are numerous things you do not have to worry about solely because you are white

Explain this to me.

Playing the victim and then trying to say I'm the boogeyman out to get you while you sleep, are NOT valid debating points. The latter being odd as I am a white male myself, and rank quite high on the level of privilege in my life.

I don't care what color you are, you're as racist as they come . . . and a product of public education. Get bent.

[LazyDrunk]

But in reality, what about me needing $20K/month worth of treatment to maintain an extremely substandard life

I take it you earn 20k a month?

[Korriken]

At 5/16/14 05:43 PM, Feoric wrote: "White supremacy has been embedded in the United States of America from its founding" is a completely factual statement,

*shrug* so?Things were different back then. Also, did you watch past the first few minutes? Berkeley Law professor John Powell calls things such as Individual Rights, Logic, Reason, and get this, the SCIENTIFIC METHOD as RACIST?

How in the hell is the Scientific Method racist? These things are white constructs and impediments to a better society?

Bull shit. These people can go fuck themselves if they truly think that ANYTHING a 'white' person comes up with is automatically racist. This brainwashing needs to end.