Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 4/23/14 03:55 AM, Decimating wrote:

At 4/23/14 03:46 AM, HeavenDuff wrote: Slipknot isn't a metal band because of the obvious rock patterns in their song-writing. The riffing is hard rock, and the vocals are hardly anything more then hardcore vocals. The only thing somewhat metal in Slipknot is the drumming. And that's about it.

This has nothing to do with my stubbornness. How is Slipknot not metal? That's like saying Black Sabbath isn't rock.

Read the fucking post you just quoted, and address the content of it, instead of talking about me.

At 4/23/14 03:46 AM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 4/23/14 02:40 AM, Shadaw wrote: Well you said in an earlier post a real metal head would like all types of metal. It's true and I think it applies to just about any thing. Cherry picking something just goes to show your ignorance about.

Please tell me more about your favorite avant-garde metal, depressive black metal, usbm and progressive metal bands. I'd like you to share your profound knowledge about metal. You could also try to explain to us why Slipknot is a metal, if actually debating the matter that is at the core of our disagreement could ever be a solution to you. Or you can just keep calling us names, that could also do it.

You know when you talk out of your ass people are going to say something. If you honestly need me to explain obvious things then you need to re work your bullshit persona.

At 4/23/14 04:30 AM, S3C wrote: Can't that be said for all music. In your opinion, what should be the criteria for establishing a new sub-genre. Embracing Christianity is a pretty big difference to set it apart from other (metal) music. in fact, Christian music isn't at all defined by it's compositional structure but only through its lyrics. Therefore white metal is subgenre of both metal and christian music. But on the whole I agree with what you're saying. It's absurd how some people go to such extreme levels of pedantry to try and establish new sub-genres. For fucks sake, every musical group is going to sound a little different from each other, you might as well create a respective sub-genre for every band in existence.

To establish a new sub-genre you have to be similar enough to fall under the genre, but you have to add something new and specific to this genre that isn't just unique to one band. It has to be game changing, but I can't define a criteria for all musical genres in the world, that wouldn't be possible. I think the best is to go case by case.

Like with White Metal. It's not just christian metal, it's black metal, but that rejects the satanic and/or evil and/or nihilist lyrical themes. But it's not like black metal is defined by these things anyway, right? It's just something that a lot of the bands of the second wave did. It doesn't define the genre. So you don't need to have these themes or values to be black metal, you just need the aesthetics, the sound, the song-writing, the kind of drumming, the riffs, etc. I know that some bm purists would argue that I'm wrong here, but they would also argue that white metal cannot exist, since these lyrical themes wouldn't fit the aesthetics.

As for Christian Rock and these things, these are basically genres based on lyrical themes. But I'd pretty much follow the same logic that I described for white metal, except for rock... it's even worst! Because there is just nothing about rock that is unchristian or refraining anyone from including christian themes in their music. In fact, there were always rock bands that made reference to God and religion even before the term Christian Rock was coined. So should we lump anything with that kind of lyrics under the name Christian Rock?

That seems like a stretch to me. The same thing goes for Viking Metal... It's basically epic folk metal/melodic death metal with viking themes. I doesn't make much sense to create sub-genre names for all lyrical themes, especially when it doesn't affect the song-writing process (except for the lyrics, of course).

What do you think?

At 4/23/14 04:34 AM, S3C wrote: can you elucidate the difference between a hard rock and metal riffs and vocals?

The answer to this would be pretty huge, you know. I can't answer this one in just a few sentences. I think the best way to start this is by listening to some of the proto-metal and early metal bands to see what elements they threw in the mix and work from there to really define what it was that made rock become metal, and how the two have grown into two different trees from there. Stuff like UFO, Accept, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, The Scorpions, etc.

I can't make an objective definition of what is a rock riff and what is a metal riff, since black metal and death metal for examples, do not use the same kind of riffs. Both of them did root out from thrash metal, though. And thrash metal came from heavy metal.

What I'm basically saying is that the kind of riffing found in Slipknot's music didn't root from any metal sub-genres, and that the roots are in fact in hard rock far more then they are in metal.

Take the song Before I Forget as an example. The main riff is definitely a hard rock riff. I can't find a good example to compare it to right now (I'll do it tomorrow). But what genre of metal would nu-metal be evolving from if it was indeed metal? How is it similar to these bands they would have taken influences from?

If you think that Slipknot (or Nu-Metal in general) is really metal, how is it so? I'd really like to know.

At 4/23/14 05:39 AM, Vnzi wrote: Let me just put my own head into this argument real quick, I see a lot of bullshit coming out of this.

At 4/23/14 04:31 AM, Shadaw wrote: You know when you talk out of your ass people are going to say something. If you honestly need me to explain obvious things then you need to re work your bullshit persona.

He asked you to name some bands and actually prove it to him that the band is metal, not asking for a insult and false accusations. Also you are sort of talking out of your ass too since you haven't made one good point in this entire thread or any good debate, only insulted people for thinking differently than you.

Why should bother explaining anything to you people, you're not going understand or admit being wrong, you're all little children playing dress up.

At 4/23/14 05:51 AM, Vnzi wrote:

At 4/23/14 05:46 AM, Shadaw wrote: Why should bother explaining anything to you people, you're not going understand or admit being wrong, you're all little children playing dress up.

Dude, let me clarify here. @Heavenduff is one of the four horsemen of Metal Hell (the metal club in NG) so he definitely knows his shit about metal. More than me, for sure. The only thing I know is when bullshit comes into a conversation, and boy you are the bull's anus right now.

So since he's in a thread on NG he's a expert? That doesn't mean anything.

Meanwhile, please at least try to explain to us your opinion, please try to prove us wrong. I need to know if you can hold a stable argument.

There's nothing to argue, or did you just want to argue?

I don't want to ever get shit for arguing retardedly every again for as long as NG exists

At 4/23/14 06:24 AM, Xenomit wrote: I don't want to ever get shit for arguing retardedly every again for as long as NG exists

Ever

Not every

God damnit

At 4/23/14 06:29 AM, Xenomit wrote:

At 4/23/14 06:24 AM, Xenomit wrote: I don't want to ever get shit for arguing retardedly every again for as long as NG exists

Ever

Not every

God damnit

We all make mistakes.

there isnt a point in arguing whether a band is metal or not because there is no objective definition of what constitutes as metal, there are only rough guidelines, such as fastness, loudness, aggression, downtuned guitars, etc. slipknot is considered metal because they fit these guidelines. they also have a lot of different sounding songs, for example compare "dead memories" with "disasterpiece", so it's not like they just have one consistent sound.

and about the pirate metal and viking metal thing, yeah those might not be legitimate genres, but who gives a shit really, in the end it's about having fun.

Just because Slipknot isn't metal doesn't mean they're bad. Why do people get so mad about nu-metal bands not being metal?

At 4/23/14 05:46 AM, Shadaw wrote: Why should bother explaining anything to you people, you're not going understand or admit being wrong, you're all little children playing dress up.

The fact that you are still posting in here daily proves you wrong. We are apparently too dumb for you to bother writing a thought-out argument, but you still take the time to post in here to tell us that we're dumb.

At 4/23/14 05:55 AM, Shadaw wrote: So since he's in a thread on NG he's a expert? That doesn't mean anything.

You're right, but then I did write reasoned arguments to defend my position. So since there is content in my posts, you'll have to step out of your comfort zone and get rid of all the dumb fallacious arguments you dive into every single time we disagree with you.

At 4/23/14 05:51 AM, Vnzi wrote: Dude, let me clarify here. @Heavenduff is one of the four horsemen of Metal Hell (the metal club in NG) so he definitely knows his shit about metal. More than me, for sure. The only thing I know is when bullshit comes into a conversation, and boy you are the bull's anus right now.

I'll take this as a compliment, but all the guys from the Metal Hell are amazingly knowledgeable when it comes to metal, and just music in general. Viper and Sense proved it with their contribution to this thread.

Sense conquers all!

You should join the Metal Hell by the way, we don't have a lot of regulars these days, and new faces usually help us start conversations on band that we don't dare to bring up ourselves since we probably all believe that everything about them as already been said.

At 4/23/14 10:25 AM, DeIirium wrote: there isnt a point in arguing whether a band is metal or not because there is no objective definition of what constitutes as metal, there are only rough guidelines, such as fastness, loudness, aggression, downtuned guitars, etc. slipknot is considered metal because they fit these guidelines. they also have a lot of different sounding songs, for example compare "dead memories" with "disasterpiece", so it's not like they just have one consistent sound.

Bongripper and Electric Wizard aren't fast. Spastic Ink and Sonata Arctica aren't aggressive. Metallica, Skeletonwitch and Iron Maiden don't play down-tuned guitars. And these are all metal bands. (I didn't say anything about loudness because that's kind of a criteria for all that is hardcore, metal, metalcore, hard rock, etc.)

and about the pirate metal and viking metal thing, yeah those might not be legitimate genres, but who gives a shit really, in the end it's about having fun.

A lot of people cares. I think it's an important part of what makes music a form of art for us. We like to be able to talk about music, discuss the similarities and differences between bands and genres, trace genealogical trees for musical genres, study the evolution of one of the branches of a genre, observe trends in a genre based on the decade, the region the bands come from, etc. It's pretty interesting stuff to do.

So of course, when some people claim that they like pirate metal, then fans like the ones I've listed above start to do research, read about the genre and listen to the music and then come up with the conclusion that it's not an actual sub-genre.

At 4/23/14 04:08 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Just because Slipknot isn't metal doesn't mean they're bad. Why do people get so mad about nu-metal bands not being metal?

To be fair, it usually comes in a package deal. Most of the time, people who hold the discourse on nu-metal not being a legitimate genre of metal, usually do not like nu-metal bands.

I think it also affects the individuals who are big fans of said genre when they are told that "Well, this identity you are claiming to be yours... we are denying it." I remember being an hardcore fan of Slipknot in high school, and when you guys first told me they were not metal, I'm pretty sure I started swinging :P

But anyway, it surely doesn't mean that nu-metal is crap. Albums like Hybrid Theory by Linking Park are definitely great albums, and I still enjoy some Ill Nino and Papa Roach from time to time.

At 4/21/14 11:02 PM, JRob wrote: I made flowchart for you:

My god, Iron Maiden has the most obnoxious fanbase out there.

Half of them are old farts who go on at length about how terrible modern metal is, the other half are 13-25 year olds who bitch about how terrible modern metal is.

The band's okay and they've got some decent songs, but they aren't the greatest metal band ever.

At 4/23/14 05:51 AM, Vnzi wrote: Dude, let me clarify here. @Heavenduff is one of the four horsemen of Metal Hell (the metal club in NG) so he definitely knows his shit about metal.

Yeah. We don't get picked for shits and giggles. Too bad that thread isn't very active now. A lot of the regulars there have stopped posting or only occasionally return.

At 4/23/14 08:52 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: You should join the Metal Hell by the way

I'm not certain, but I think she did when she was going by the name Provoke. I haven't really had anything to say cuz I haven't even been checking out new music in a long time.

At 4/23/14 04:08 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Just because Slipknot isn't metal doesn't mean they're bad. Why do people get so mad about nu-metal bands not being metal?

To be fair, it usually comes in a package deal. Most of the time, people who hold the discourse on nu-metal not being a legitimate genre of metal, usually do not like nu-metal bands.

I guess. I think maybe people wouldn't be quite as harsh on nu-metal if they didn't have a million instances of being asked what music they like, saying they like metal, and then getting "oh, like Slipknot and Korn?" as a response. You get sick of that after a while.

I think it also affects the individuals who are big fans of said genre when they are told that "Well, this identity you are claiming to be yours... we are denying it." I remember being an hardcore fan of Slipknot in high school, and when you guys first told me they were not metal, I'm pretty sure I started swinging :P

Hah. I used to be a big Slipknot fan in junior high.

But anyway, it surely doesn't mean that nu-metal is crap. Albums like Hybrid Theory by Linking Park are definitely great albums, and I still enjoy some Ill Nino and Papa Roach from time to time.

I still listen to a couple Ill Nino songs on a rare occassion, too, like Predisposed. Deftones, Korn, and Flaw, too. Payback has a nice bass intro.

At 4/23/14 08:52 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 4/23/14 05:46 AM, Shadaw wrote:
At 4/23/14 10:25 AM, DeIirium wrote:

Bongripper and Electric Wizard aren't fast. Spastic Ink and Sonata Arctica aren't aggressive. Metallica, Skeletonwitch and Iron Maiden don't play down-tuned guitars. And these are all metal bands. (I didn't say anything about loudness because that's kind of a criteria for all that is hardcore, metal, metalcore, hard rock, etc.)

yeah i was just listing some rough guidelines, not that every band follows all of them, but those are perceived as typical characteristics of metal.

and about the pirate metal and viking metal thing, yeah those might not be legitimate genres, but who gives a shit really, in the end it's about having fun.

A lot of people cares. I think it's an important part of what makes music a form of art for us. We like to be able to talk about music, discuss the similarities and differences between bands and genres, trace genealogical trees for musical genres, study the evolution of one of the branches of a genre, observe trends in a genre based on the decade, the region the bands come from, etc. It's pretty interesting stuff to do.

So of course, when some people claim that they like pirate metal, then fans like the ones I've listed above start to do research, read about the genre and listen to the music and then come up with the conclusion that it's not an actual sub-genre.

yeah but it isn't all that strict for everyone. i doubt alestorm take themselves that seriously. it's just a fun term. running wild is one of my favorite bands and i like to describe them as pirate metal because i think that there's a really pirate-y atmosphere to their music.

At 4/23/14 10:15 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Yeah. We don't get picked for shits and giggles. Too bad that thread isn't very active now. A lot of the regulars there have stopped posting or only occasionally return.

We're VIP...

I'm not certain, but I think she did when she was going by the name Provoke. I haven't really had anything to say cuz I haven't even been checking out new music in a long time.

Well, I kind of did. Not new things as in new releases, but bands that we don't discuss much.

I guess. I think maybe people wouldn't be quite as harsh on nu-metal if they didn't have a million instances of being asked what music they like, saying they like metal, and then getting "oh, like Slipknot and Korn?" as a response. You get sick of that after a while.

Very true. It's even worst when people ask you: "What music do you like?" and then you answer "I listen to a lot of metal", and people just go "Awwwh! I hate metal, Slipknot is all just screaming and random." At least when people make the honest mistake and ask you if you're talking about Korn and Slapchop, they aren't flat-out judging you on stuff they don't know...

At 4/23/14 10:16 PM, DeIirium wrote: yeah i was just listing some rough guidelines, not that every band follows all of them, but those are perceived as typical characteristics of metal.

I know, and that's why I think people are still confusing nu-metal for metal. Writing a hard rock riff and playing it with Drop-E tuning and a lot of distortion doesn't make it a metal riff.

I don't think these criteria you have listed can fully grasp what metal is.

yeah but it isn't all that strict for everyone. i doubt alestorm take themselves that seriously. it's just a fun term. running wild is one of my favorite bands and i like to describe them as pirate metal because i think that there's a really pirate-y atmosphere to their music.

I'm not saying you should care, but rather that some people do care and that it's legitimate to debate these things. Turisas can keep saying that they are Battle Metal, I don't care :P

emotions that are spoken out loud bro. i dont listen to metal but people should respect all genres. if not then youre an asshole

At 4/23/14 10:59 PM, PotHeadParadise wrote: emotions that are spoken out loud bro. i dont listen to metal but people should respect all genres. if not then youre an asshole

Even reggaeton?

At 4/23/14 11:06 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 4/23/14 10:59 PM, PotHeadParadise wrote: emotions that are spoken out loud bro. i dont listen to metal but people should respect all genres. if not then youre an asshole

Even reggaeton?

EXACTLY.

At 4/23/14 10:48 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 4/23/14 10:15 PM, Sense-Offender wrote:
At 4/23/14 10:16 PM, DeIirium wrote: yeah i was just listing some rough guidelines, not that every band follows all of them, but those are perceived as typical characteristics of metal.

I know, and that's why I think people are still confusing nu-metal for metal. Writing a hard rock riff and playing it with Drop-E tuning and a lot of distortion doesn't make it a metal riff.

I don't think these criteria you have listed can fully grasp what metal is.

yeah but the truth is that there aren't really any more accurate criteria than that. it's debatable but there isn't any objective definition of what a metal riff sounds like.

At 4/23/14 11:09 PM, PotHeadParadise wrote:

At 4/23/14 11:06 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Even reggaeton?

EXACTLY.

But... But!... It's the same song all the time, just with different lyrics!

At 4/23/14 11:17 PM, Viper wrote: Who exactly ARE the "Horsemen" for the Metal Hell anyways? Kinda figured it'd be HeavenDuff, Sense-Offender, and Murray/Bahamut/FromADistance. But is there anyone else?

Me, Sense, Bahamut (who seems to have disappeared...) and Ghoul. Right? I'm pretty sure Ghoul was the last one. He was one of the original ones, so when he came back I think it just went back to him naturally.

But I might be wrong. It's not like we talk about this stuff a lot...

At 4/23/14 11:30 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 4/23/14 11:09 PM, PotHeadParadise wrote:

At 4/23/14 11:06 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Even reggaeton?

EXACTLY.

But... But!... It's the same song all the time, just with different lyrics!

each song gives out a special message.

At 4/23/14 11:34 PM, PotHeadParadise wrote: each song gives out a special message.

Not quite, lol. Reggeaton is a needle in the foot for anyone who tries to argue that every genre of music has it's own merits and values. :P

At 4/23/14 11:17 PM, Viper wrote: Who exactly ARE the "Horsemen" for the Metal Hell anyways? Kinda figured it'd be HeavenDuff, Sense-Offender, and Murray/Bahamut/FromADistance. But is there anyone else?

The fourth one was batman64/BillPatton until he said he was quitting NG and then ElGhoulio came back, so we had him as a horseman again like he was before. He's been inactive since last summer, though. Hope he's alright. And while Bahamut isn't completely inactive, he practically never posts in the Hell anymore. So Duff and I are like...the two horsemen.

Speaking of Ghoul, I was recently re-listening to his album Graveyard Metal that he did under the name Psycryptik. Pretty good industrial black metal, which...interestingly, includes a bit of the Funeral of Queen Mary and the Song of Storms from Zelda.

At 4/23/14 11:41 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

At 4/23/14 11:34 PM, PotHeadParadise wrote: each song gives out a special message.

Not quite, lol. Reggeaton is a needle in the foot for anyone who tries to argue that every genre of music has it's own merits and values. :P

Can't be worse than crunkcore.

Metal is when hot bimbo chicks fell in love with hot guys with guitars over the sound that was coming from it. It's the same as acoustic music.