Professional ethics

[Zhon]

Hello good people of Newgrounds,

I come to you again with fun questions. Allow me to provide some backstory, or skip to the next section if you don't care.
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The entirety of my income comes from freelancing as an artist and a writer. It has always been my practice to be completely honest and transparent with my clients, which is most of the reason why I am successful. However, a few days ago I was interviewing for a job and asked for an amount of money I knew was too high... Standard practice, just like selling a car. I expected her to come back with a much lower amount, but instead she asked for just a few dollars lower... I accepted, not expecting to get nearly that much money for the job. It was a really simple job, and I was getting paid roughly triple what I normally do.

I was tempted, at the end, to offer a discount - to clear my conscience of taking this person's money, who clearly was new to the freelancing scene - but I just barely made it out of a financial slump not too long ago, and the extra cash was nice. I ended up just taking it. I am trying to look at it with the attitude of "hey, if they have the money to throw around, who am I to turn it down?" but there's a part of me that still feels guilty about it. I have this noble notion that I should earn every one of my pennies, but sometimes I don't know where to draw the line between ripping people off and just making better money.
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So, my questions to you, Newgrounds: do you follow a set of professional ethics? Why or why not? Would you ever break these ethics if it meant getting more money? Have I fallen to the ranks of a common mechanic who swindles uninformed teenagers out of their money?

[Jercurpac]

Hate to break it to you, but you're pretty much Hitler. I'd suggest some sort of repentance, but you're marked for life now so you might as well run with it.

[STEM]

Charging too little tells the client you're worth too little.
It's best to over charge in the long run, as you set yourself up with better clients and weed out those that don't value your true worth as a professional freelancer.
Get it out of your head that you should feel bad. You should only feel unethical if you have to exploit and/or deceive a client to get more money. You're still a fair and responsible person, that's what counts.

[Zhon]

At 3/11/14 12:41 AM, STEM wrote: Charging too little tells the client you're worth too little.
It's best to over charge in the long run, as you set yourself up with better clients and weed out those that don't value your true worth as a professional freelancer.
Get it out of your head that you should feel bad. You should only feel unethical if you have to exploit and/or deceive a client to get more money. You're still a fair and responsible person, that's what counts.

That's just the thing, though. I do feel like I exploited this client because they don't really know anything about freelancers - or digital art for that matter. I think this person expected my job to take ~10 hours and I ended up finishing it in about three. I get what you're saying... It just feels really weird to smile and present finished files to someone knowing that they overpaid the shit out of you.

[Cyberdevil]

At 3/11/14 12:29 AM, Zhon wrote: So, my questions to you, Newgrounds: do you follow a set of professional ethics? Why or why not? Would you ever break these ethics if it meant getting more money? Have I fallen to the ranks of a common mechanic who swindles uninformed teenagers out of their money?

I probably follow a set of pretty unprofessional ethics: I do plenty of stuff for free. I like helping out. Haven't been in a situation where I've been offered more than I think my work was worth, but if I was I'd probably think like this: do they have a lot of money to spend? If they do, then it's OK! Swindle away!

[Prinzy2]

At 3/11/14 12:29 AM, Zhon wrote: ---------
So, my questions to you, Newgrounds: do you follow a set of professional ethics? Why or why not? Would you ever break these ethics if it meant getting more money? Have I fallen to the ranks of a common mechanic who swindles uninformed teenagers out of their money?

I do follow a set of ethics, but mainly because I'm forced to. Since I'm responsible for a bar sometimes, I have to be careful who I over serve, and when the cutoff for booze is 2pm, I have to ensure no one gets served after.

I have broken the rules for my own profit several times. A guy gave me $100 for three drinks, three sandwiches, and three bags of chips after last call. Another time I made two sandwiches after midnight for $30, that one bit me in the ass and I got suspended for a week. Silver lining is I went to San Fransisco instead of moping around, bet they didn't plan on that happening.

In your case you've done nothing wrong. Two parties negotiated on you value and came to an agreement. If you're really feeling bad, try to put in an extra effort to make the job more worth what they're paying.

[GingerGymnast]

At 3/11/14 12:29 AM, Zhon wrote: Hello good people of Newgrounds,

I come to you again with fun questions. Allow me to provide some backstory, or skip to the next section if you don't care.
---------
The entirety of my income comes from freelancing as an artist and a writer. It has always been my practice to be completely honest and transparent with my clients, which is most of the reason why I am successful. However, a few days ago I was interviewing for a job and asked for an amount of money I knew was too high... Standard practice, just like selling a car. I expected her to come back with a much lower amount, but instead she asked for just a few dollars lower... I accepted, not expecting to get nearly that much money for the job. It was a really simple job, and I was getting paid roughly triple what I normally do.

I was tempted, at the end, to offer a discount - to clear my conscience of taking this person's money, who clearly was new to the freelancing scene - but I just barely made it out of a financial slump not too long ago, and the extra cash was nice. I ended up just taking it. I am trying to look at it with the attitude of "hey, if they have the money to throw around, who am I to turn it down?" but there's a part of me that still feels guilty about it. I have this noble notion that I should earn every one of my pennies, but sometimes I don't know where to draw the line between ripping people off and just making better money.
---------
So, my questions to you, Newgrounds: do you follow a set of professional ethics? Why or why not? Would you ever break these ethics if it meant getting more money? Have I fallen to the ranks of a common mechanic who swindles uninformed teenagers out of their money?

I think this is a really good thread and I'm interested to hear some of the responses. I'll probably end up ignoring 90% of the replies because it's just a bunch of fat people trying to be funny.
I think this is something you're going to answer for yourself. As far as morality is concerned, this is a gray-zone. I mean, was the work you gave to this person worth the amount you charged them? Is this something you'll be doing again? Why or why not?
I think as a business person, you need to strike a balance between charging too much and too little. You might have the best product or service in the world to sell, but if you charge too little for it - everyone will think it's worthless. So, there's a part of people that will find value in what you sold them if what they bought was priced high enough. (Does that make sense?)

On the other hand, I think it is your responsibility, as a professional, to match your pricing for the work you do. We go through the same questions at the gym I work at. Some people have broken off and started their own schools and talk to me about the same thing (i try to stay in touch with everyone at my gym).
I don't think this is a black-and-white, yes-or-no answer to your question.

What sort of writing do you do? What did you charge this person and what do you normally charge?

[Earfetish]

wtf. Do the work, do it better than you normally would, enjoy the money. I have written freelance and also worked in content farms, and if they took you on as an employee or outsourced the work, they'd be paying far more than the money they're paying you. So enjoy it.

If you contact her and say you think you're ripping her off, she won't like you and won't use you again. Do dynamite work and she will.

[Earfetish]

As a freelancer, consider that you should be making the average annual wage for your particular area, you deserve at least an average pay.

The average yearly wage in New York appears to be about $125,000. That means you should be asking for $61 an hour. You're unlikely to receive that as a freelance writer, but you shouldn't feel bad about asking for average.

If it's not fair using the New York annual wage as a starting point, then the US median wage is $26,695 which works out at perhaps $15 / hour. You're doing a skilled job in an expensive place.

[orangebomb]

While I was working, I always try to be as professional as possible at all times, mostly because I have to be, and most of my employers were rather anal when it came to money and anyone trying to skim off the top, though from time to time, they tend to overlook it, particularly when it came to tips. Now, I've broken the rules and got more money via tips, but it was clearly unintentional, and I really thought nothing of it, because I wasn't necessarily doing it on purpose and I didn't get caught.

Obviously, I certainly don't recommend doing that, nor do I think that it's really worth it in the sense that a temporary gain is worth getting the metaphorical ax by the employers, though it all depends on who you work for and where you work.

[Earfetish]

At 3/11/14 04:52 PM, orangebomb wrote: Obviously, I certainly don't recommend doing that, nor do I think that it's really worth it in the sense that a temporary gain is worth getting the metaphorical ax by the employers, though it all depends on who you work for and where you work.

He's a freelancer, so he is not employed by anyone. He made the terms of his own contract and now feels bad because he reckons they're too beneficial to him.

[Zhon]

At 3/11/14 04:43 PM, GingerGymnast wrote: What sort of writing do you do? What did you charge this person and what do you normally charge?

I write mostly articles, blogs, and online learning courses. I actually was doing some art for this person. I asked for $165 - she paid me $150. I would have normally accepted more around $60. It was just a simple editing/coloring job. She asked for really simple coloring, so it's not like I could even really make it fantastic if I wanted to as multiple people in this thread have suggested. I think I am over it, though. My ultimate feeling on the subject has turned out to be thus: it's an open market and she had the option to choose anyone, and certainly had time to explore her options. If it was worth $150 to her, then we both benefited from it.

[Prinzy2]

At 3/11/14 04:43 PM, GingerGymnast wrote: You might have the best product or service in the world to sell, but if you charge too little for it - everyone will think it's worthless.

This exactly.

It's like buying name brand milk versus the no-name stuff. Both have the same nutritional value, probably even come from the same dairy pool, but the name brand milk that you're paying an extra $2 per gallon is viewed as a superior product. So people who can afford it will buy it.

[Zhon]

At 3/11/14 04:52 PM, Earfetish wrote: As a freelancer, consider that you should be making the average annual wage for your particular area, you deserve at least an average pay.

The average yearly wage in New York appears to be about $125,000. That means you should be asking for $61 an hour. You're unlikely to receive that as a freelance writer, but you shouldn't feel bad about asking for average.

If it's not fair using the New York annual wage as a starting point, then the US median wage is $26,695 which works out at perhaps $15 / hour. You're doing a skilled job in an expensive place.

NYC horribly inflates the median wage here, I live in Central NY so it's more around the $20k range like you said. I usually make $10/hr to $15/hr at most, but in this situation I was essentially making about $45/hr (fixed price job). Guess I'll just learn to be happy!

@Prinzy and others: yeah, I am well aware of perceived value. I landed *NO* jobs when I first started out because I kept applying for well below minimum wage in order to build a portfolio. That works for crappy intro level jobs, but I was doing that on larger jobs. People would never hire me because they didn't want some unskilled kid with no industry experience working on their product.

[Earfetish]

At 3/11/14 05:11 PM, Zhon wrote: NYC horribly inflates the median wage here, I live in Central NY so it's more around the $20k range like you said. I usually make $10/hr to $15/hr at most, but in this situation I was essentially making about $45/hr (fixed price job). Guess I'll just learn to be happy!

I am doing a similar job to you, I'm sure I'm not significantly better at it than you are, and I live in a cheap area of the cheaper-than-New-York UK. I now want $27 an hour (converted for simplicity). When I started off I wanted at least $16 / hour. You're underselling yourself man.

I know it's annoying haggling with clients, and small business owners are better at it than an untrained freelancer most of the time, but just make it clear that you have plenty of clients, you're a busy man, and they need to pay you at least $17.50 / hour if you're going to work with them. If you're confident enough about what you say then they'll pay you what you want. Some people can really take the piss, guy wanted me to write four 800 word articles for him every day for $10 an article. Eventually I got him commissioning me to do 7 500-word articles a day for $19 an article, which gave me a healthy annual wage regardless of other clients. Because I was willing to walk away.

It's a vicious world, business. Shit is dog-eat-dog. If you don't actively try to prevent yourself from getting fucked over, you will get fucked over. Your clients are businesses, and when you approach them as a freelancer, you are also a business. Think like an amoral, self-interested business, do not think like a sensitive young man.

[Earfetish]

At 3/11/14 05:23 PM, Earfetish wrote: Eventually I got him commissioning me to do 7 500-word articles a day for $19 an article, which gave me a healthy annual wage regardless of other clients. Because I was willing to walk away.

Should say even he managed to fuck me over in the end, I think I'm going to have to take the company to court because they're disputing my last invoice of $2,400, the only invoice they ever disputed and only because they're annoyed at me for dropping them and moving on to a more lucrative opportunity.

[Zhon]

At 3/11/14 05:23 PM, Earfetish wrote:

At 3/11/14 05:11 PM, Zhon wrote: NYC horribly inflates the median wage here, I live in Central NY so it's more around the $20k range like you said. I usually make $10/hr to $15/hr at most, but in this situation I was essentially making about $45/hr (fixed price job). Guess I'll just learn to be happy!

I am doing a similar job to you, I'm sure I'm not significantly better at it than you are, and I live in a cheap area of the cheaper-than-New-York UK. I now want $27 an hour (converted for simplicity). When I started off I wanted at least $16 / hour. You're underselling yourself man.

I know it's annoying haggling with clients, and small business owners are better at it than an untrained freelancer most of the time, but just make it clear that you have plenty of clients, you're a busy man, and they need to pay you at least $17.50 / hour if you're going to work with them. If you're confident enough about what you say then they'll pay you what you want. Some people can really take the piss, guy wanted me to write four 800 word articles for him every day for $10 an article. Eventually I got him commissioning me to do 7 500-word articles a day for $19 an article, which gave me a healthy annual wage regardless of other clients. Because I was willing to walk away.

It's a vicious world, business. Shit is dog-eat-dog. If you don't actively try to prevent yourself from getting fucked over, you will get fucked over. Your clients are businesses, and when you approach them as a freelancer, you are also a business. Think like an amoral, self-interested business, do not think like a sensitive young man.

The job I took on before this one ended badly, I had been doing well for months so I got too laid back and just handed over my work without a watermark. Client took the art and ran, no money, no message, nothing. Happens to me once in a while and then I remember I have to watch my ass or it'll get kicked.

I actually write for $1/100 words with one job I have now. I end up making about $12/hr off of it most of the time, sometimes more with easier topics and less with things I just have no knowledge of. I know people who write for shit money, $0.50 per hundred words or even lower. It's because the freelance market is global and people from dirt poor countries can work at dirt poor wages. I guess considering I do have a Bachelor's degree and can actually write in proper English I should be demanding more.

You give sound advice, but it's still nerve wracking to try and negotiate wages when you have been eating ramen and lettuce for the past month. I really should be aiming higher. $27/hr is fucking astronomical to me. I could literally work for one month full time on that wage and have my rent and bills paid for an entire year.

[GingerGymnast]

At 3/11/14 05:02 PM, Zhon wrote: My ultimate feeling on the subject has turned out to be thus: it's an open market and she had the option to choose anyone, and certainly had time to explore her options. If it was worth $150 to her, then we both benefited from it.

I'm going to warn you against this kind of thinking. It sounds like you're avoiding the responsibility of something and dodging any "blame" that could be accrued. I mean, yes - she has her own responsibility to shop the market, but that doesn't mean you should put people in the position of getting ripped off. That would be poor ethics. The subject is what you can do, not what she 'should' have done
I'm not saying what you did was bad or wrong, or anything like that. I mean - I don't know what it's like to be stuck on ramen noodles and lettuce. I've never even eaten ramen noodles. I see them at the shop for like 20 cents a package. They can't be good at that price. Or is that that pricing mentality thing I mentioned earlier? Who knows.

Just on the subject of professional ethics, if it was a simple job that would have gotten you regularly 60 dollars, and you charged more than twice that amount *just because* you're going broke - I think that's selling your ethics for a quick fix to the real problem you have: why are you having a hard time finding clients? What can you do to find more? What are you doing, or not doing, that's holding you back from getting more business?

[GingerGymnast]

I like to ask questions, don't mind me

[DarkMatter]

I've heard of an actual set of prices and ethic guidelines for people in your position and it's standard practice as you said, they simply value your work more than others, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Sure the person could've saved a few dollars but perhaps they ultimately decided lowballing the actual image or whatever wasn't a good idea.

[Sense-Offender]

I choose business ethics.

[Kwing]

You are being paid as an artist and a writer, not a moral arbiter or financial adviser. If that's the money that you were OFFERED, do your job. The money is not relevant to your profession; it is a byproduct of the work you were hired for. If your employer is struggling to pay you what they originally offered, that's another thing. As it is now, I'd say just take the money. Having a whiny inner voice telling you that you don't 'deserve' something is just your own self-hatred trying to make you miserable.