The Dystopia of North Korea

[oobooglunk]

I'll just leave this here...

So I've heard horror stories about North Korea being a dystopian, holocaust-like environment. Idolatry and corruption abound, and the press is skewed in North Korea's favor. Their news reports spew misinformation (like North Korean astronauts landing on the Sun for the first time in history) and the people sincerely accept it as fact. Speaking of North Korea's space program, it has a 20% success rate. For those who don't think that's terrible, imagine 100 astronauts flying into space and 80 of them dying. Between a six-hour work week and forced "volunteer" group, workers don't have luxuries like "weekends" and "free time", which means they spend their lives working out in the fields...doing what, exactly? They work in honest-to-God labor camps. Children born to enslaved parents are slaves for life. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has moved on from such terrors at least half a century ago. And, again, the North Korean press reports falsely: they say North Koreans are the second-happiest people in the world, just behind China. Sure, that sounds believable.

And the worst part is...?

While this is happening, we're obsessing over Justin Bieber's incarceration and pixellated birds. Why does this issue not receive the publicity it deserves?!

[orangebomb]

Everyone already knows that North Korea is a massive hellhole, with in-state genocide, mass starvation and so on. But here's the thing, there isn't much we can do about it because North Korea is such a closed society, most of us don't even know what in the hell do they actually do beyond the obvious.

You could say that we don't care, but we can't do that much to do about it because North Korea is a hellhole, ruled by the anti-social Kim family. (Dennis Rodman doesn't count)

[Warforger]

At 2/13/14 02:45 AM, oobooglunk wrote: While this is happening, we're obsessing over Justin Bieber's incarceration and pixellated birds. Why does this issue not receive the publicity it deserves?!

This is something that's always confused me, what you want our news to be solely about how life sucks in some other country? I mean you could go onto Central Asian governments, Myanmar, the DRC, South Sudan, Somalia and Central Africa in general, but it won't do much to improve anything.

Everyone knows life in North Korea sucks, what we can do is not.

[oobooglunk]

At 2/13/14 12:00 PM, Warforger wrote:
This is something that's always confused me, what you want our news to be solely about how life sucks in some other country? I mean you could go onto Central Asian governments, Myanmar, the DRC, South Sudan, Somalia and Central Africa in general, but it won't do much to improve anything.

Everyone knows life in North Korea sucks, what we can do is not.

True, life sucks in a lot of places, but North Korea behaves like a time-bubble that has remained the same since World War II. It's not just sad, it's disturbing.

[leanlifter1]

At 2/13/14 10:15 AM, orangebomb wrote: Everyone already knows that North Korea is a massive hellhole, with in-state genocide, mass starvation and so on. But here's the thing, there isn't much we can do about it because North Korea is such a closed society, most of us don't even know what in the hell do they actually do beyond the obvious.

You could say that we don't care, but we can't do that much to do about it because North Korea is a hellhole, ruled by the anti-social Kim family. (Dennis Rodman doesn't count)

It's not the USAs job to Police the world. Perhaps the US should worry about fixing it's own problems like it's Economy and Health Care system.

[orangebomb]

At 2/13/14 12:42 PM, oobooglunk wrote: True, life sucks in a lot of places, but North Korea behaves like a time-bubble that has remained the same since World War II. It's not just sad, it's disturbing.

What exactly can we do with North Korea, other than give them food for them being nice, and give them sanctions when they act up, and that is very often that Kim Jong and Kim Il sung does just that, especially when they keep agitating South Korea, Japan and even China is getting sick of them.

Yes, the people are suffering and the horror stories coming from there rivals that of Saddam's Iraq, or the heyday of the Soviet Union. But there isn't much we can do about it, and to be glib about it, most of us really don't give a shit about them mostly because of The Kim family certainly doesn't.

[oobooglunk]

At 2/13/14 04:13 PM, orangebomb wrote:

Yes, the people are suffering and the horror stories coming from there rivals that of Saddam's Iraq, or the heyday of the Soviet Union. But there isn't much we can do about it

Actually, if you want to know something we can do about it, we can arrest the current leaders of North Korea on the grounds of disobeying the constitutional law of North Korea. To be more specific, Article 67 of Chapter 5 of the North Korean states that "citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations."

[orangebomb]

At 2/13/14 05:00 PM, oobooglunk wrote: Actually, if you want to know something we can do about it, we can arrest the current leaders of North Korea on the grounds of disobeying the constitutional law of North Korea. To be more specific, Article 67 of Chapter 5 of the North Korean states that "citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations."

YOU. MUST. BE. JOKING.

The Constitution of North Korea doesn't apply to Kim Family, nor does it mean anything at all. If I didn't know any better, I would think that you are actually trolling, because there is no way that you wouldn't know about this, please go back to General.

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[leanlifter1]

At 2/13/14 05:00 PM, oobooglunk wrote:

At 2/13/14 04:13 PM, orangebomb wrote:

Yes, the people are suffering and the horror stories coming from there rivals that of Saddam's Iraq, or the heyday of the Soviet Union. But there isn't much we can do about it

Actually, if you want to know something we can do about it, we can arrest the current leaders of North Korea on the grounds of disobeying the constitutional law of North Korea.

By we do you mean yourself ? If you are talking about yourself then who gave you the power to interfere with other peoples and Government affairs ? If you don't Live in Korea then I don't think you have to worry about it's Laws unless they are interfering with your own rights and Liberties afforded to you by your own Country's Government and natural Laws.

[TheMason]

At 2/13/14 05:00 PM, oobooglunk wrote:

At 2/13/14 04:13 PM, orangebomb wrote:

Yes, the people are suffering and the horror stories coming from there rivals that of Saddam's Iraq, or the heyday of the Soviet Union. But there isn't much we can do about it

Actually, if you want to know something we can do about it, we can arrest the current leaders of North Korea on the grounds of disobeying the constitutional law of North Korea. To be more specific, Article 67 of Chapter 5 of the North Korean states that "citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations."

Nope.

Several things stand in our way. I'll address two: theory and realpolitik (and no...that is not a misspelling).

THEORY
Many of us who specialize in the study of International Relations (IR) do not believe that such a thing as international law exists. What lay people call 'International Law' is basically a bunch of treaties and promises one country makes to another (or a group of countries). These treaties and promises are only as good as the governments of these countries desire to follow them.

This leads to another problem: enforcement. Who enforces a UN resolution or a treaty? Yes there is a 'World Court'...but if a country either doesn't sign the treaty putting them under the authority of the World Court (or they pull out of the agreements)...then they do not follow the judgment of the court. There is no 'world police'. Any country that uses force (and arresting people...especially leaders of a country...is a use of force) to enforce the will of any world body is going to face criticism.

Finally, under theory, N. Korea is a sovereign country. It is called the Hermit Kingdom because it isolates itself from the world. It joins some treaties and attend some summits, but only if it does not limit their freedom of action. So they get to do what they want. Until they invade S. Korea, launch missiles at Japan or US territory, our options are rather limited. We cannot do anything when a country's leader(s) violate their constitution. That is up to their populace to correct.

REALPOLITIK
Realpolitik is not about ideology and moral questions...basically: "Don't bother me with abstractions, what can we do about X?"

1) We're coming off two wars that have fatigued our military and undermined American's will to go to war.
2) We've been slashing our military, so we're going to have to spin back up to a war footing...and that will take awhile.
3) China does not want a Korea that will probably be under the US' sphere of influence, so China will prop-up the DPRK (N. Korea) until it becomes a problem for their regime (hint: Beijing does not give a quarter of a half of a fuck about human rights and violations of civil liberties).

The status quo is about our only option at this point. Keep a strong defense of ROK (S. Korea) and send humanitarian aid when needed.

For a good book read: The Aquariums of Pyongyang.

[TheMason]

At 2/13/14 05:29 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: By we do you mean yourself ? If you are talking about yourself then who gave you the power to interfere with other peoples and Government affairs ? If you don't Live in Korea then I don't think you have to worry about it's Laws unless they are interfering with your own rights and Liberties afforded to you by your own Country's Government and natural Laws.

Mark this day on your calendar...LL1 and I are in agreement...

:-p

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[oobooglunk]

At 2/13/14 05:19 PM, orangebomb wrote:

YOU. MUST. BE. JOKING.

The Constitution of North Korea doesn't apply to Kim Family, nor does it mean anything at all. If I didn't know any better, I would think that you are actually trolling, because there is no way that you wouldn't know about this, please go back to General.

<------------------------------------

1. I had no idea.
2. Would that not automatically necessitate a revolution?
3. I'm going to have to ask you to maintain a more proper tone in this thread for the sake of coherent communication.

At 2/13/14 05:29 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

By we do you mean yourself ? If you are talking about yourself then who gave you the power to interfere with other peoples and Government affairs ? If you don't Live in Korea then I don't think you have to worry about it's Laws unless they are interfering with your own rights and Liberties afforded to you by your own Country's Government and natural Laws.

I was talking about the United States as a whole.

Also, TheMason has given me the most informative answer thus far.

[leanlifter1]

At 2/13/14 05:42 PM, oobooglunk wrote:

I was talking about the United States as a whole.

Also, TheMason has given me the most informative answer thus far.

I offered a truncated version of what themason stated. It's simply not the USAs job to Police the world and interfere with other countries unless other countries are interfering the US.

[Th-e]

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Given the nature of the regime, we cannot simply walk into North Korea. They will continue to deny any wrongdoing, say they have a flawless human rights record, and that the Kims are gods who never have to poop.

Of course, I hate to say this, but we may only have two options regarding North Korea in the near future:

1. Eliminate the Kim regime.
2. Accept a fully nuclearized North Korea. And accept these atrocities as a part of human society forever.

I see option 2 as almost inevitable at this point. China continues to prop up the regime (due to refugee fears and buffer state) and I believe they will do so even when NK reaches full nuclear capabilities.

Doing option 1 would almost certainly lead to war, even if they convinced China to pull the plug on economic support. If the Kim regime knew they were done, they would carry out a massive final attack and kill as many foes as they could.

Of course, the buffer state concern is not an excuse to prop up the Kim regime, because China could still control and decide the future of North Korea in a post-Kim nation. If NK winds up like Tibet, I will accept it because it is still a better fate than what NK currently is.

As for the refugee concern, I think China and the U.S. and South Korea should seek out a deal that would block refugee flows while avoiding endangering the lives of those trying to flee.

Given the circumstances, do you think we should seek out such an agreement?
Doing so could be a major risk to South Korea and Japan. Not doing anything and accepting NK as it is may be worse in the long term. It's tough to deal with.

[X-Gary-Gigax-X]

13 posts, and not ONE mention of the communist regime of North Korea's government?

What's with you guys?

[Ranger2]

Nobody's bothering with "freeing" North Korea because it's in nobody's best interests. North Korea is too isolated to survive any retaliation in the event that it attacks someone.

Yes, you're right, China is an ally of North Korea. But even so, China is not going to be on North Korea's side if it provokes war. Why? Because that would ruin China's trading relations with the United States and the West, and as much as we may rightfully dislike the current balance of trade, China needs us just as much as we need them. We are each other's meal ticket, and China would not want to ruin that to save its Communist brother. Plus, China has been getting more and more annoyed at North Korea's actions, in particular the shelling of Yeonpyang and the sinking of South Korean ships.

And while China is North Korea's #1 trading partner, North Korea is China's 82nd-largest trading partner. Now, who are China's biggest trading partners? From biggest to smallest, we have the EU, USA, Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea. Aka, "Western imperialist puppet enemies of the Juche ideals." China may not like Japan or South Korea but it's not going to declare war alongside North Korea on its enemies.

Second, North Korea is not going to attack the West anytime soon. We love to call dictators wackos and morons, but it is a mistake to underestimate them. Kim Jong-Un may be a horrible person, but he is not stupid. He knows darn well that any war he starts he will lose. Even if Kim Jong Un is not completely in control, the military has considerable power and they are not a bunch of looney tunes. They are smart enough not to start things they can't finish.

But of course, why not an international humanitarian invasion to overthrow evil Kim and install a democracy? Finally reunite Korea into one big happy family? Well, China wouldn't want a war on its doorstep, so no UN resolution would ever pass. Any attack done by NATO and South Korea and Japan would be seen as imperialist aggression, and frankly, the world has lost its idealistic view of spreading democracy. After Iraq and Afghanistan, and the lack of real results in bombing Libya, the West and the US in particular has lost its love for nation building. We are suffering from Vietnam syndrome. We're not willing to fight, we're not willing to free North Korea because we know we'd get so much crap for it and frankly we have enough problems as is.

So that's that. Nobody's going to free NK because those with the power are unwilling too. But also know that NK isn't going to hand us a situation where it would be justified, either. Kim Jong is here to stay, and the only way he's leaving is if the North Koreans rise up and kick him out.

So the dystopia is here to stay.

[Ericho]

I remember saying that Kim Ii-sung was granted the eternal position of leader. Well, he DID have the longest time in terms of the leader of a country (not including monarchy) so he's about as close to one as you could get. If only we could kill Kim Jong-Un's children, the chain would finally end! Of course, they'd probably say something to cover it up. Fidel Castro really does seem nicer.

[Camarohusky]

At 2/15/14 10:16 AM, Ericho wrote: If only we could kill Kim Jong-Un's children, the chain would finally end!

Killing a puppet doesn't end the puppet show.

[Ericho]

At 2/15/14 10:22 AM, Camarohusky wrote: Killing a puppet doesn't end the puppet show.

Come on, if nothing else it would be satisfying. Again, they'd probably just replace him with a duplicate and say it's him.

[Idiot-Finder]

At 2/16/14 10:10 AM, Ericho wrote:

At 2/15/14 10:22 AM, Camarohusky wrote: Killing a puppet doesn't end the puppet show.

Come on, if nothing else it would be satisfying. Again, they'd probably just replace him with a duplicate and say it's him.

That or prop his corpse up and make people think he's alive until they find the right duplicate, remember "Weekend at Bernie's"?

[orangebomb]

At 2/16/14 10:10 AM, Ericho wrote:

At 2/15/14 10:22 AM, Camarohusky wrote: Killing a puppet doesn't end the puppet show.

Come on, if nothing else it would be satisfying. Again, they'd probably just replace him with a duplicate and say it's him.

That may be, but this is a case of cutting off the head and the body will die situation, and the body is already at a state of decay when it comes to North Korea. Considering all of the factors that previous posters have already mentioned, it would be better overall to retain the status quo on North Korea and basically let them keep blowing hot air. Now if they attack South Korea for whatever reason, then all bets are off on what we'll do with North Korea when we torch them to the ground.

It's easy to remove a leader in power, but from what we've seen in Afghanistan and Iraq is that nation-building from the ground up isn't as easy, especially when you have a chunk of the population refuse to get with the program. Probably why they will be behind the curve of human standards and freedom for decades to come, but I guess they like it that way.

[LordJaric]

There isn't much that can be done about North Korea. Could we kick up the Korean War again if we had to? Yes. Would we win? Most definitely. But the North Korea can do a hell of a lot of damage to the South before going down. Soul is close enough to the boarder that the North can lop off artillery from their side to destory the South's capital.

[Th-e]

I am bumping this thread for obvious reasons...all the big media networks are reporting about the UN ruling that North Korea has committed atrocities comparable to Nazi Germany.

Their crimes included “These crimes against humanity entail extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced abortions and other sexual violence, persecution on political, religious, racial and gender grounds, the forcible transfer of populations, the enforced disappearance of persons and the inhumane act of knowingly causing prolonged starvation.”

North Korea obviously denied the report, and China, unsurprisingly, is set to block any resolution to put the Kims on trial or take action. Their response was to say that "issues concerning human rights should be solved through a constructive dialogue on an equal footing."

...that quote coming from a country that forcibly repatriates refugees, well aware of what happens to them. Why are we supporting their economy, again? Oh, so the rich in America can save money.

Yep, even with all this, Kim Jong Un and his regime are guaranteed to go unpunished, and the regime will go on...forever.

Oh, and they will be fully nuclear.

[WallofYawn]

Yes, North Korea spreads propaganda and lies. Yes, they stock stores with goods they never sell to anyone ever.
Yes, they are a communist dictatorship, based around a slave state population taught to view the leader as a god/deity.

But, at the same time, many secretly have access to radio broadcasts, smuggled foreign films, etc. and are willing to risk their lives to get this information. They are not as clueless as everyone thinks. They hide, and pretend. It's very difficult to say how many are actually believe in the cause, and how many are pretending out of fear.

If 1 in every 3 people is gonna turn you into the establishment for execution, wouldn't you be hiding any evidence of contact with the outside world? North Korea is not as secluded or impenetrable as they try to be. It's just that the risk of getting caught for having contact with outside world far outweighs the reward.

They still do it though. Because like any human beings, they are curious and have a sense that they are bieng lied to. Even in oppressive cultures, the urge to question and learn overcomes all obstacles. The breakdown of the NK regime is a slow one, but it's coming along.

[Ranger2]

At 2/17/14 04:56 PM, Th-e wrote: ...that quote coming from a country that forcibly repatriates refugees, well aware of what happens to them. Why are we supporting their economy, again? Oh, so the rich in America can save money.

The United States needs China as much as China needs the US. And frankly, it's not just us. China is the #2 economy in the world, soon to be the #1, so if people try to stop trading with it, everyone across the globe will feel it. You can talk about how horrible their domestic policy is, but as long as they have money and trade they will have the power, and every country, not just the US, is trading with them.

Yep, even with all this, Kim Jong Un and his regime are guaranteed to go unpunished, and the regime will go on...forever.

Oh, and they will be fully nuclear.

This smells an awful lot like the "take out Saddam!" rhetoric we all forgot was totally real in 2002 and 2003. I have no problem with making sure Kim Jong Un doesn't go nuclear (which is kind of too late) but keep in mind it's not as simple as taking him out. You think that South Korea would just go in and administer the freed North? I don't think China would let them.

It is SO easy to call for punishing dictators, but if you break a country, you buy it. Saddam, make no mistake, was as bad, if not worse than Kim Jong Il and Un. But the only way to knock him out was to invade and depose him. Would you recommend something similar in North Korea?

[Th-e]

But, at the same time, many secretly have access to radio broadcasts, smuggled foreign films, etc. and are willing to risk their lives to get this information. They are not as clueless as everyone thinks. They hide, and pretend. It's very difficult to say how many are actually believe in the cause, and how many are pretending out of fear.

Mere proles in the 1984-style system. They won't pose a threat. North Koreans who have influence are fiercely loyal to the regime, many having their brains washed with industrial strength cleaners.

Yep, even with all this, Kim Jong Un and his regime are guaranteed to go unpunished, and the regime will go on...forever.

Oh, and they will be fully nuclear.

This smells an awful lot like the "take out Saddam!" rhetoric we all forgot was totally real in 2002 and 2003. I have no problem with making sure Kim Jong Un doesn't go nuclear (which is kind of too late) but keep in mind it's not as simple as taking him out. You think that South Korea would just go in and administer the freed North? I don't think China would let them.

Of course, the Iraq stuff was based on false evidence, whereas North Korea is a more legitimate concern. As for post-Kim Korea, I wouldn't care if North Korea became the next Tibet. If China still wants its buffer zone, fine. Just do away with the Kims and the nukes.

Regardless, America's hand in this is a full house, but China has four of a kind. Something must be done, but nothing can be done.

[Warforger]

At 2/17/14 09:29 PM, Th-e wrote: Mere proles in the 1984-style system. They won't pose a threat. North Koreans who have influence are fiercely loyal to the regime, many having their brains washed with industrial strength cleaners.

Actually that is something that is difficult to determine. After all the guy who pretends to be fiercely loyal to the regime and the guy who actually is are very hard to pick out. But people close to the dictator have escaped before and fled to the West (ok I guess technically south or east), so it's clear that in all ranks of the government there are probably people who hate the regime and want to get away. We don't need to use 1984 or hypothetical scenarios we have many examples of not just Communist regimes falling but also Totalitarian regimes falling. Alot of the people who led the collapse of Communism were in fact prominent Communist party members. Boris Yeltsin for example had the Order of Lenin, in Bulgaria the Communist Party itself decided to do away with their dictator and Communism in general, Alexander Dubcek first Prime Minister of post-Communist Czechoslovakia was the leader of the Communist party in the late 60's when he was overthrown. Keep in mind, this was after generations of Communists controlling schools and the world their people lived in, so the extent of the "brainwashing" is clearly evident in how effective it was.

[Ranger2]

At 2/17/14 09:29 PM, Th-e wrote: Of course, the Iraq stuff was based on false evidence, whereas North Korea is a more legitimate concern. As for post-Kim Korea, I wouldn't care if North Korea became the next Tibet. If China still wants its buffer zone, fine. Just do away with the Kims and the nukes.

If by legitimate concern you mean a concern to US security, you're more correct. But both Kim Jong Un's North Korea and Saddam Hussein's Iraq have had horrible humanitarian concerns. Saddam gassed thousands of Kurds in the north and south, ran a horribly efficient police state, and started two wars (first Gulf and Iran-Iraq war.) So keep in mind what your rhetoric is; are you asking should we "do something" about Kim Jong Un because you believe he's threatening the US, or because of humanitarian concerns?

[leanlifter1]

At 2/17/14 10:49 PM, Ranger2 wrote:

If by legitimate concern you mean a concern to US security, you're more correct. But both Kim Jong Un's North Korea and Saddam Hussein's Iraq have had horrible humanitarian concerns.

The US was funding Saddam with WMDs. Would not be a surprise if US is giving WMDs to kim. The US is in no way or form in danger of a radical Korean regime.

[Ranger2]

At 2/17/14 10:55 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

The US was funding Saddam with WMDs. Would not be a surprise if US is giving WMDs to kim. The US is in no way or form in danger of a radical Korean regime.

1: We didn't give him WMDs. We, the UK, France, and Russia armed him with conventional weapons in the '80s.
2: Why would we give WMDs to Kim if we have sanctions on him?
3: I don't believe we the US is directly threatened by NK either. I was telling Th-e that he needs to watch his rhetoric when arguing in favor of ousting Kim.