Music Theory - Modulation

[SoundChris]

Does anybody knows this problem: You are composing very complex stuff and everything works fine. You invest several hours and have got about 2 minutes of music done, made several key changes, introduction, midpart, theme, rhythm ... you are really comfortable with anything you have done so far.

BUT:

Now you have to find an elegant way back to your original tonality for the last repetitions / variations - and the only solutions you can find are much to circuitous / not of that quality you have composed until this special measure. When composing i am usually very fast. 99 % of a piece are created within 1 day. But this single measures take more time than the other 99 % of the piece... its always the same :D

Is it just a question of modulation skill or is it that hard for everyone to master those situations?

In my special case i started in B flat minor, did various modulations and after the midpart i have arrived in d minor. No problem - anything works fine and feels logical. But now i want to straightforward get back to the origin key - as elegant and fast as possible. Any suggestions? I dont want to transpose the ending because the piece feels just perfect in B flat and i dont want to get to A which would be the very easiest solution of all :D But it feels strange...

Thankful for any helpful advise!

[Breed]

Well who says you need to modulate back? I mean I get referencing an intro for an outro but if you don't feel comfortable doing modulation there you can always just reference a motif and end in a different key.

That said, I'm not too good at modulation at all. Inspired or not it either comes out too mechanical or just bad...especially if I TRY to, like making it a goal.

[camoshark]

In this specific case I think the best course of options would be to cycle through fifths to get to where you need to be, since you're two whole-tones apart from the original, through the aid of the magic of dominant chords!

In case you don't already know, dominants have a natural tendency to want to resolve to it's tonic, which is a fifth lower (or a fourth higher). If you decided to resolve said dominant with another one, though, you can do what's called a cycle of fifths and go through all 12 tones by perpetually resolving them. Therefore, in your example, you might want to do Dm-G7-C7-F7-Bbm.

You can also do a similar process with direct modulation by tones, such as going Dm-G7-Cm-F7-Bbm. In the end, modulation is a very subjective thing, so be sure to trust your ear to find the best one.

btw, extremely sleepy, so this might not make sense at all >.<

[Chando]

At 1/26/14 10:33 PM, SoundChris wrote: Stuff

I'm interested in how you got to D minor as your penultimate tonality. Generally when you're modulating, you want to modulate between closely related or chromatically related keys (the I, IV, and V chords and the parallel and relative minors of those). Using a foreign tonality like D minor leading into Bb minor suggests a slightly more convoluted path, tonality-wise, so if you could elaborate on your chord movements leading up to the D minor phrase, I'd be really interested.

As for getting from D minor to Bb minor, you have two options. Either modulate to a key more closely related to Bb minor, or use a direct pivot chord from D minor. I'd go with the first one, since D minor and Bb minor aren't closely related and therefore won't share many, if any, chord tonalities.

D minor has Dmin, Edim, Fmaj, Gmin, Amin/maj, Bbmaj, and Cdim in its diatonic chord set. To avoid jarring the listener, you'll want to modulate to either the major I (Dmaj), minor IV (Gmin), or minor V (Amin). You said in your post you wanted to avoid A, so we'll toss out that possibility. Gmin is just as foreign as Dmin, so that's a no go. The best modulation appears to be to the parallel major of Dmin, Dmaj. This is the relative major of Bbmin, so it's a good choice for a penultimate tonality. My recommendation would be to stick with that modulation, play around in Dmaj for a bit, then bring it home to Bbmin.

Now, if you really want to go straight from Dmin to Bbmin, you have an option. Since Dmin has an Fmaj chord as its III, it could act as a pivot chord into the major V of Bbmin. This would work best over the course of one measure (III-V) that leads into a Bbmin chord at the start of the next measure, allowing you to finish the song in that key.

Both of these solutions are viable, but I believe the first solution is a bit less jarring in terms of listener involvement. As I said above, a more detailed chord mapping would be really interesting to look at.

Bit of a disclaimer: this solution doesn't take sevenths into account, only diatonic triads, so you could very well find a great seventh chord progression that would accomplish everything you're looking for quickly and pleasantly.

Hope this helps!

Also, any more experienced music theoreticians should feel free to correct me or offer other alternatives.

[Phonometrologist]

Oh man you got an endless amount of possibilities really, but finding the right one to keep the piece's integrity I suppose it what makes it difficult. So what I can further add to what has already been said would be difficult without hearing it in context. "As fast as possible," is also difficult to do without making it sound a bit jarring. However, your rhythm and, more importantly, your melody is crucial to making a smooth modulation. Your use of non-chord tones will be your biggest ally in assisting you. The "Romantic" composers were notorious for using them in half-steps for moving chords in and out of the original scale. As I'm sure you're aware, non-conventional modulation techniques will sound more elegant when the chords are broken up as opposed to just block chords.

Anyway, Chando's advice would be your most efficient way, but, then again, maybe it's not the best one for it. You mentioned two minor keys, so would a diminished 7th work in context? Cdim7 is the same as E-flat dim7, G-flat dim7, and Adim7. Just half steps away from your B-flat minor. Really there's only 3 diminished 7 chords which can be written in several different ways.
If that's too much, I do like the Neapolitan 6th chord. Dminor-->N6 (E-flat major with G as the root)-->B Minor. I kind of like the Major IV chord going to Minor I. Same as the Major I chord to Minor V really, but establishing your theme should set that straight for the listener.
If you don't like the E-Flat chord to be major, you just need to move the note G a half step down to G-flat after the N6 chord. Again, the melody will help. So, Dminor-->N6-->E-flat Minor 6 (with G-flat as the root)-->B Minor.
This is a fairly quick way.
-OR-
You can also add an augmented sixth chord before the Neapolitan sixth chord: Dminor-->Ger+6(B-flat7)-->N6(has the same root that is B-flat)-->etc. You should probably go back between the Dminor and the Ger+6 chord to establish the fact that the relationship between the two is indeed a Minor I chord with an augmented sixth. Typically an augmented sixth chord like a Ger+6 goes to a minor one chord in its second inversion and then to the major V chord.
If you're still with me, the point I'm getting at is the Ger+6 chord is also V7 of the Neapolitan chord.

[Gario]

Elegant solutions to the problem require that you prepared for it motivically earlier in the piece. I can hear something like an augmented triad being enharmonically reinterpreted in order to get you into a tonality that is a major 3rd away (like from Dm to Bbm, for example), but for that to work seemlessly you'd need to have been working augmented triads into your composition, in the first place.

But yeah, using something like a V5+3+ chord in Dm (A-C#-E#(F)) and enharmonically making it into the V5+3+ of Bbm (F(E#)-A-C#) and moving into the new key like that is one possibility for a modulation like that.

[SoundChris]

Hay there! Thanks for your really good and useful advises. I finally found an elegant - but not really straight forward way to get back to Bb minor from D minor:

D Minor (... I - II# - C7 > F Major (Lots of Chords in F ... IVb- Eb7 ) > A flat Major (I - G7 - C7 > F Minor (I - G7 - F7)
>>> B Flat Minor

... ok - maybe a little bit complicated and maybe it looks like it would sound odd - but it doesnt. It sounds really nice in my jazz tune. Sorry for being so noobish in music theory :D I know my explanation isnt written down in the correct form - hope you understood what i mean anyway :D

@Breed : Of course there is no rule that you have to get back to the original tonality, but i prefer this because of 2 aspects: I think a piece feels just more monolithic this way. The second is, that - if people will play it on repeat - there wont be a cut. So you can listen to the track several times in a roll and it just doesnt kick you out of the mood that hard - if you know what i mean.

@Chando : Its a little bit hard for me to explain how i got there because of my lacking theoretical knowledge. I created a very complex jazz piece and the tonality changes were just consequent within the composition - until i arrived in D :) When the track will be done i will send you the link in a PM so you will be able to see what i have done!

Bit of a disclaimer: this solution doesn't take sevenths into account, only diatonic triads, so you could very well find a great seventh chord progression that would accomplish everything you're looking for quickly and pleasantly.

That was the key! Thanks man :D

@Phonometrologist :

"As fast as possible," is also difficult to do without making it sound a bit jarring.

Yeah - i also had to realize this. THats why the whole journey from d minor to B flat minor took me about 16 measures. But the result sounds really good. The piece will be finished very soon. I will send you a link to it so you can take a listen what the problem was and how my final solution actually sounds. My problem is, that i just hear what i compose, but dont really understand what this means music theoretically. This is a really important issue which i really want to improve - i have already started to do that!

@Bspendlove and @camoshark: Thanks fo your help - your advise was very helpful - just as always :D

So thanks a lot guys for your awesome help!
Cheers!

[SoundChris]

At 1/28/14 08:23 PM, Gario wrote: Elegant solutions to the problem require that you prepared for it motivically earlier in the piece.

I always try to keep this in mind, but when composing there are always lots of great surprising ways appearing which just seem so appetizing - and i cannot resist. Maybe you know this problem :D I always try to find the solutions in which the piece evolves in the (in my opinion) most refreshing and surprising way. The problem is that i compose by ear only and do just have a basic music theoretically knowledge, which is a little bit to low for what i want to compose ;D

You can check out my jazz tracks "Cafe de Paris" or "In a strange Rapture" if you want to see how i proceed in my compositions. Most of them were composed in a single session / 2 days maximum. I start with my main theme and just compose what comes into my mind. In most cases i find my way through the track quite fast - but sometimes i get in difficult situations. That occured in my piece La pura Vida, where i also to often tried to go the surprising way. The result is, that i need very much time to fix this decision and finally come back to my tonality.

I can hear something like an augmented triad being enharmonically reinterpreted in order to get you into a tonality that is a major 3rd away (like from Dm to Bbm, for example), but for that to work seemlessly you'd need to have been working augmented triads into your composition, in the first place.

Sounds interesting.

Thanks for your help!

[Phonometrologist]

At 1/28/14 08:47 PM, SoundChris wrote: D Minor (... I - II# - C7 > F Major (Lots of Chords in F ... IVb- Eb7 ) > A flat Major (I - G7 - C7 > F Minor (I - G7 - F7)
>>> B Flat Minor

... ok - maybe a little bit complicated and maybe it looks like it would sound odd - but it doesnt. It sounds really nice in my jazz tune.

Not odd at all, and in fact I enjoy hearing pieces that have to travel quite a ways to get back home.

After all this fun talk, this thread inadvertently inspired in me a chord progression and a simple melody in B-flat minor. I'll save it for later when I have more time to sit down with it.

[Troisnyx]

At 1/26/14 10:33 PM, SoundChris wrote: Does anybody knows this problem: You are composing very complex stuff and everything works fine. You invest several hours and have got about 2 minutes of music done, made several key changes, introduction, midpart, theme, rhythm ... you are really comfortable with anything you have done so far.

BUT:

Now you have to find an elegant way back to your original tonality for the last repetitions / variations - and the only solutions you can find are much to circuitous / not of that quality you have composed until this special measure. When composing i am usually very fast. 99 % of a piece are created within 1 day. But this single measures take more time than the other 99 % of the piece... its always the same :D

Is it just a question of modulation skill or is it that hard for everyone to master those situations?

In my special case i started in B flat minor, did various modulations and after the midpart i have arrived in d minor. No problem - anything works fine and feels logical. But now i want to straightforward get back to the origin key - as elegant and fast as possible. Any suggestions? I dont want to transpose the ending because the piece feels just perfect in B flat and i dont want to get to A which would be the very easiest solution of all :D But it feels strange...

I'm going to use an example of a piece which I already have made, however poor the mixing is. Take for instance, All The Way Down.

I start in Bb min, modulate to D min, then modulate to F min, then I have to find a method of going back to Bb min, because the piece wil have to loop! What I did here was this: from F min, I tried to find some common chords between that and Bb min, and then worked my way from there.

A note of caution: depending on how the piece has transitioned, you may wind up with one full section of modulation. It may be 8 bars, it may be 16, or more (as in my case). But the key is to make the transition sound natural, not forced into.