Regulation vs. Bans

[Entice]

My city recently passed a bill that bans the sale of synthetic marijuana, "including salvia" which is not even remotely similar to synthetic marijuana.

The thing that bothers me about this is that whenever I read an article on the subject, there's hardly ever discussion of age limits, regulation of ingredients, etc. There's an immediate jump from completely legal to totally banned, and completely dissimilar substances are lumped together in spite of the fact that not all of these substances are demonstrably harmful in any way.

What's wrong with a compromise? If there were some regulations that prevented the addition of synthetic ingredients, prevented people from selling fake/misidentified plant matter, and imposed an age limit most of the issues associated with these substances would go away.

On the other hand, I'd imagine that proponents of these bans just don't want anything that can even begin to produce something approximating a "high" to be legal, so it's not really a surprise.

What are your thoughts?

[leanlifter1]

Salvia should be banned and destroyed. That shit is just pure garbage and could potentially put allot people at extream mental health risk on a level that makes Marijuana insignificant. There is no relation to Pot and Salvia. Salvia was one of the worst and most horrific experiences of my life.

[AxTekk]

At 1/3/14 05:00 PM, Entice wrote: What are your thoughts?

It's a populist subject - expect no rationality. If politicians want to please the middle-aged and socially conservative by controlling a drug, the best way to do so is by totally outlawing the drug. That's kind of always how it's been with drugs, pornography and anything to do with ethnic minorities. Change only comes when that segment of society start to come to their senses.

As for the whole salvia thing, that seems typical of the misinformation our governments feed us on drugs. Same people who told us marijuana would make you have psychotic episodes and that LSD could cause lasting brain damage. I mean, they probably just thought "ITS A LEAF! KIDS SMOKE LEAVES TO GET HIGH RIGHT?! ITS THE NEW MARIJUANA!!"

What'll be interesting is how regulations go in places like Colorado where weed is now legal. Right now, it's only 21+ and only indoors with limited rights to grow, but how will that change? I imagine the age limit will stay static but I'm not sure the rights to grow will.

[AxTekk]

At 1/3/14 05:47 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Salvia was one of the worst and most horrific experiences of my life.

So because you didn't like it, it should be destroyed? What about all the people who have gained insight and spiritual enrichment from using it? I've had some good times on salvia, I think like any hallucinogen you just need to respect it. Get into a good safe space with people you know and trust, and just keep your arms and legs inside the ride at all times.

Where did your salvia experience go wrong?

[leanlifter1]

At 1/3/14 05:53 PM, AxTekk wrote:

As for the whole salvia thing, that seems typical of the misinformation our governments feed us on drugs. Same people who told us marijuana would make you have psychotic episodes and that LSD could cause lasting brain damage. I mean, they probably just thought "ITS A LEAF! KIDS SMOKE LEAVES TO GET HIGH RIGHT?! ITS THE NEW MARIJUANA!!"

To be honest if you have never smoked Salvia then you really have no opinion or grounds to say if it should be banned. Just look at the YouTube Vids and you will se what it does to people and they are not faking it.

[Korriken]

I don't really care what you do as long as you do it

A. At home.
B. With no children around.
C. Don't try to push it on others.

We have enough problems before we have people who just want to stay high all the time.

[Entice]

At 1/3/14 05:58 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: To be honest if you have never smoked Salvia then you really have no opinion or grounds to say if it should be banned. Just look at the YouTube Vids and you will se what it does to people and they are not faking it.

I have. You can have a bad experience and it's quite scary but it's not dangerous so long as you have a responsible person watching you. The problems arise when kids buy powerful extracts without understanding that they will trip balls from a single hit, and use it in a bad environment (around other kids who will laugh at them and scare them). On the plus side though, salvia trips only last 2-10 minutes.

It's like chugging vodka and complaining that you lost control of yourself.

IMO there's no need for extracts, salvia is quite potent enough in its natural form.

[leanlifter1]

At 1/3/14 06:30 PM, Entice wrote:

At 1/3/14 05:58 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: To be honest if you have never smoked Salvia then you really have no opinion or grounds to say if it should be banned. Just look at the YouTube Vids and you will se what it does to people and they are not faking it.

I have. You can have a bad experience and it's quite scary but it's not dangerous so long as you have a responsible person watching you. The problems arise when kids buy powerful extracts without understanding that they will trip balls from a single hit, and use it in a bad environment (around other kids who will laugh at them and scare them). On the plus side though, salvia trips only last 2-10 minutes.

It's like chugging vodka and complaining that you lost control of yourself.

IMO there's no need for extracts, salvia is quite potent enough in its natural form.

I did a 40 count hit of Salvia alone and it was a good thing cause if I had someone trying to hold me down I am sure I would have had a heart attack as it sucked the life right out of me and i felt like I was becoming part of a house but I just needed to move around so i paced back and forth for 15 mins and almost broke my neck as a tipped over a bucket of water I use earlier to clean the floor with and almost slipped and hit the ground hard every time a paced back and forth on the weat floor. Salvia is a terrible thing and everyone I know of that tried it had a terrible trip on it.

[AxTekk]

At 1/3/14 06:51 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: I did a 40 count hit of Salvia alone and it was a good thing cause if I had someone trying to hold me down I am sure I would have had a heart attack as it sucked the life right out of me and i felt like I was becoming part of a house but I just needed to move around so i paced back and forth for 15 mins and almost broke my neck as a tipped over a bucket of water I use earlier to clean the floor with and almost slipped and hit the ground hard every time a paced back and forth on the weat floor.

Did you have any prior experience of hallucinogens? Did you seek advice from others? How old were you during this experience? What kind of environment did you do this drug in?

[leanlifter1]

At 1/3/14 07:08 PM, AxTekk wrote:

At 1/3/14 06:51 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: I did a 40 count hit of Salvia alone and it was a good thing cause if I had someone trying to hold me down I am sure I would have had a heart attack as it sucked the life right out of me and i felt like I was becoming part of a house but I just needed to move around so i paced back and forth for 15 mins and almost broke my neck as a tipped over a bucket of water I use earlier to clean the floor with and almost slipped and hit the ground hard every time a paced back and forth on the weat floor.

Did you have any prior experience of hallucinogens? Did you seek advice from others? How old were you during this experience? What kind of environment did you do this drug in?

I am an advanced user of Magic Mushrooms and I have tried LSD once or twice. I knew what i was getting into with Salvia but nothing could have prepared me for the bad trip it gave me. I like some Psychedelics as they can help open the third eye chakra however i have no use for Salvia.

[AxTekk]

At 1/3/14 07:12 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: I am an advanced user of Magic Mushrooms and I have tried LSD once or twice. I knew what i was getting into with Salvia but nothing could have prepared me for the bad trip it gave me. I like some Psychedelics as they can help open the third eye chakra however i have no use for Salvia.

Were you experienced when you tried salvia? Idk, I'm having trouble figuring out how someone who understands how to treat hallucinogens had such a rough time on salvia, which I found pretty mild. Was there any stuff going on in your life at the time that could've messed your subconscious up?

[leanlifter1]

At 1/3/14 07:23 PM, AxTekk wrote:

At 1/3/14 07:12 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: I am an advanced user of Magic Mushrooms and I have tried LSD once or twice. I knew what i was getting into with Salvia but nothing could have prepared me for the bad trip it gave me. I like some Psychedelics as they can help open the third eye chakra however i have no use for Salvia.

Were you experienced when you tried salvia? Idk, I'm having trouble figuring out how someone who understands how to treat hallucinogens had such a rough time on salvia, which I found pretty mild. Was there any stuff going on in your life at the time that could've messed your subconscious up?

Well there are different strengths of Slavia I had 40count Salvia and 80count was the highest the store I bought from sold. To get the full effect from Salvia you must take a really huge hoot and hold it in for some time. When you exhale it should make a massive cloud of smoke and you should have a real nasty perfume type of taste in your mouth. The first hoot i took of Salvia I did not even get a small buzz from so then I took a bigger and bigger hit's until the effect intended was achieved.

[AxTekk]

At 1/3/14 07:45 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: The first hoot i took of Salvia I did not even get a small buzz from so then I took a bigger and bigger hit's until the effect intended was achieved.

Damn, you think you took too much maybe?

[leanlifter1]

At 1/3/14 07:51 PM, AxTekk wrote:

At 1/3/14 07:45 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: The first hoot i took of Salvia I did not even get a small buzz from so then I took a bigger and bigger hit's until the effect intended was achieved.

Damn, you think you took too much maybe?

I am like Charley Sheen I was bangin 7Gram Rocks ! LOL

[Entice]

Not many people enjoy salvia but I don't understand how you can use shrooms and think that it should be banned.
No, if someone had held you down you would not have had a heart attack, that's just silly.

You have to be experienced with salvia specifically. It is not like other psychedelics.

[leanlifter1]

At 1/3/14 08:37 PM, Entice wrote: Not many people enjoy salvia but I don't understand how you can use shrooms and think that it should be banned.
No, if someone had held you down you would not have had a heart attack, that's just silly.

You have to be experienced with salvia specifically. It is not like other psychedelics.

One of the trips I had on Shrooms was one of the most wonderful and beautiful near life experiences I have ever had. On the other hand Salvia is something I would only wish upon only the worse most evil people on this planet. Shrooms changed my life for the better forever.

[Entice]

Leanlifter, many people do not enjoy shrooms either. If you don't see how your individual experiences are not a basis for a ban you are being a huge hypocrite.

At 1/3/14 06:10 PM, Korriken wrote: I don't really care what you do as long as you do it

A. At home.
B. With no children around.
C. Don't try to push it on others.

We have enough problems before we have people who just want to stay high all the time.

Okay I don't think anyone contested that

[leanlifter1]

At 1/3/14 09:04 PM, Entice wrote: Leanlifter, many people do not enjoy shrooms either. If you don't see how your individual experiences are not a basis for a ban you are being a huge hypocrite.

Um look up Salvia trip on youTube and every single one was a bad and or retarded experience. Also everyone I know including me had a terrible trip on Salvia so I don't think this is an isolated case more so Salvia just is terrible and should be avoided like the plague.

[Entice]

At 1/3/14 09:08 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Um look up Salvia trip on youTube and every single one was a bad and or retarded experience. Also everyone I know including me had a terrible trip on Salvia so I don't think this is an isolated case more so Salvia just is terrible and should be avoided like the plague.

How would that equate to actual danger though?
I've had great experiences with salvia, though not something I (or anyone) would want to do often

What's so fucking revealing about watching videos of people using it? Everyone looks retarded when they're tripping on salvia, regardless of what their experience is like.

[randomperson23]

At 1/3/14 05:00 PM, Entice wrote: proponents of these bans just don't want anything that can even begin to produce something approximating a "high" to be legal, so it's not really a surprise.

What are your thoughts?

There's two things drug limitation does:

1) It gives the gov. a reason to jail and take possessions($). So you see, the gov. profits (and that is the primary motive for illegalization).
2) It makes people want to try the drug more, because when you place a limitation on something, it makes people people want to try it more, and that's why there are so many more drug abusers in countries where drugs are illegal than in countries where drugs are legal.
3) It makes those who abuse the limited drug give off the false impression of some kind of freedom and other false-positive messages, but drugs will empty out all of the positive things in life, and give authoritarians (in a similar or exact sense as the gov of other entities) an excuse for domination and theft, as well as making you weaker and more vulnerable to attacks and theft (which stacks with the primary illegalization motive).

[randomperson23]

At 1/3/14 10:17 PM, randomperson23 wrote:
There's two things drug limitation does:

pretend I said three instead of two (my mistake)

[Korriken]

At 1/3/14 09:04 PM, Entice wrote:

Okay I don't think anyone contested that

you'd be amazed at how many people try to suggest I try different things and now they push me to an inch of kicking their ass just to shut their mouth because their burned out mind can't understand the concept of "I don't want to try it". Especially when I hear, "Oh cmon man, you'll feel much better after a hit!"

*cracks knuckles* you have no idea...

[Light]

At 1/4/14 01:31 AM, Korriken wrote:

At 1/3/14 09:04 PM, Entice wrote:

Okay I don't think anyone contested that

you'd be amazed at how many people try to suggest I try different things and now they push me to an inch of kicking their ass just to shut their mouth because their burned out mind can't understand the concept of "I don't want to try it". Especially when I hear, "Oh cmon man, you'll feel much better after a hit!"

*cracks knuckles* you have no idea...

The drug users you know are pretty inconsiderate.

I'll be honest when I say that I partake in drugs every now and then(Well, weed pretty much) and while I or any of my friends would be more than happy to offer some good shit to someone who doesn't normally do drugs, we respect and understand people who don't want to participate in that kind of lifestyle. To each his own.

Actually, I've never really understood or experienced peer pressure to do drugs as it was discussed in school; people offered me weed all of the time and I used to say no; they'd never try to impose on me and were pretty respectful. It sucks that the people you knew were different.

[Ericho]

I'm thinking it might be because marijuana isn't as profitable as tobacco or alcohol. Then again, it might be because it was banned the same time alcohol became legal, so they just had to find something to ban. Of course, I believe that regulation is the best of all, because it shows that we are willing to take the extra mile and put more work and effort into seeing who gets drugs for what reasons.

[LazyDrunk]

At 1/3/14 05:58 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: To be honest if you have never smoked Salvia then you really have no opinion or grounds to say if it should be banned. Just look at the YouTube Vids and you will se what it does to people and they are not faking it.

I smoked salvia in a controlled environment with people I trusted. It was a mind-blowing experience.

But after 5 minutes, it was done, over with, no after-effects beyond the knowledge I'd just tripped balls.

Smoking salvia a few times makes you not wanna do it too many times

[NeonSpider]

Legalize everything but regulate it too.

People are going to do drugs whether it's legal or not. If it's illegal, that drug money just funds even worse activities like human trafficking, assassinations, weapons smuggling, and more. It makes gangs stronger and street life more dangerous. Legalize all drugs and you make a huge cut into the profits of these criminal organizations. With less money they have less power.

The way to stop organized crime begins with legalizing drugs, gambling, prostitution, and so forth "victimless" crimes. (Or at least crimes where the "victims" are willing participants). People wouldn't go to shady people for stuff if they could get it legally. Crime goes down. Violence goes down.

[Entice]

At 1/4/14 01:31 AM, Korriken wrote: *cracks knuckles* you have no idea...

Okay but that's not what this thread is about and no one in here said anything about that

[leanlifter1]

At 1/4/14 11:29 AM, NeonSpider wrote: Legalize everything but regulate it too.

People are going to do drugs whether it's legal or not. If it's illegal, that drug money just funds even worse activities like human trafficking, assassinations, weapons smuggling, and more. It makes gangs stronger and street life more dangerous. Legalize all drugs and you make a huge cut into the profits of these criminal organizations. With less money they have less power.

The way to stop organized crime begins with legalizing drugs, gambling, prostitution, and so forth "victimless" crimes. (Or at least crimes where the "victims" are willing participants). People wouldn't go to shady people for stuff if they could get it legally. Crime goes down. Violence goes down.

What people don't understand is that illegal drugs means that cops can fine people and make more money for the government. I said it before Cops are little more than revenue agents for the Government so legalizing shit means less fines and less money going back into the pocket of big brother so to speak.

[Korriken]

At 1/4/14 02:38 AM, Light wrote: Actually, I've never really understood or experienced peer pressure to do drugs as it was discussed in school; people offered me weed all of the time and I used to say no; they'd never try to impose on me and were pretty respectful. It sucks that the people you knew were different.

Guess things are different in different areas. I experienced a LOT of peer pressure as a child to conform with everyone else at school. smoking, drinking, drugging, dressing like they do, etc.

Needless to say I stood out like a nail that would not budge when the hammer came down. I ended up getting into a lot of fights over it too. I wouldn't give in, nor would I stand down, and if you took an aggressive action, it was your ass.

[Camarohusky]

You're missing the practical side of the whole deal. You can shout "But some things aren't so bad" until you're face turns blue, but that completely misses the point.

Well two points actually: ease, and the end goal.

Regulation is EXTREMELY difficult and can be very expensive. Bans are easy and relatively cheap. To regulate you need to know enough about the subject in order to create proper borders of regulation. On top of that there are numerous facets of regulation (content limits, age limits, location limits, amount limits, and so on and so forth). A ban is a 1 size fits all (largely because it forces one size upon all). To enforce a regulation you need to inform all level of people who would be involved (licensers, police, judges, and so on) of all the ins and outs. A ban has 1 thing to remember.

So in this case they take the easy way out: Ban it.

Add to that the end goal, to remove a harmful substance from society, or at least to not propogate a harmful substance within society. (Argue all you want, but in a civilized complex society most any mind altering substance becomes harmful at the societal level.) Instead of spending out the ass and using up a shit ton of time to determine exactly which tiny chunk of the substance is least harmful, they can accomplish the end goal better and cheaper by creating an outright ban. The only consequence of such bans? A few people get mad and some may get in trouble.