At 11/18/13 04:22 PM, SickDeathFiend wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:19 PM, derelix wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:13 PM, SickDeathFiend wrote:

At 11/18/13 03:46 PM, Sammy589 wrote:

It's hypocritical for Tom to say that games based on school shootings aren't allowed on his site, since he uploaded just that, in 1999. It's wrong to say that such games will ruin the site, since games in the past based on other similar tragedies did not ruin the site.

dude, it's not 1999 anymore.

Great point. Flawless logic.

Wait, what's your point? Were people less offended by things back in 1999? Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

I notice you completely ignored the comment about the Vtech game. Made right after the tragedy, it really was just exploitation (unlike this game) and the site survived without censoring it.

Again, the things you are using to defend this act could be used to defend the constant removal of youtube videos because of silly copyright claims. It's their site, they can remove whatever they want. The only difference is that this site prides itself on not doing that and it apparently it has a loyal fanbase that will attack anyone that ever disagrees with the infallible Tom Fulp.

Like talking to a wall. If you fail to understand then that's on you. and yes, you are trolling. Throwing around hyperbolic insults then claiming every is childish. right. Anyway, youtube sucks and constantly censors my videos on there. The difference is they can afford to not do that and still do it because they don't care. Tom does care, and most of the time leaves stuff untouched when he can. Sometimes you have to think of the bigger picture.

Yes like talking to a wall, not matter how much you insult me I just don't seem to agree with you, surely I'm not understanding yet. There's no other possible reason for me to have a different opinion than you.

I didn't claim "every" was childish, I said you and Wade were acting childish. That's not trolling.

My "insults" were hardly hyperbolic.

Excuse me, youtube doesn't have to censor anything? So youtube is capable of running with zero ad revenue but newgrounds isn't? How do you expect youtube to make money if all of it's advertisers pull their funding of the site?

Bassically what you said is youtube sucks and shouldn't censor things because they pulled something you put on their site. The only difference I see is that newgrounds hasn't pulled your content so you have no reason to care if they do it to others.

Lets not kid ourselves here, this site is about making money, just like youtube. I'm sure tom cares about giving people a place to share their art, just as I'm sure the founders of youtube did when it started. Bashing one just because it's become fashionable is kind of, what's the word? Childish.

At 11/18/13 04:55 PM, TheMajormel wrote: I've played the game, and it wasnt as bad as everyone made it out to be I think. I hope you guys at least talked to the authour about it though

Tom posted a comment on the flash submission, and then Tom forcibly took it down from Newgrounds, since a news outlet contacted him and he cares more about keeping up his revenue than letting creativity reign in the site he created and added a Columbine shooting flash game.

Really respect that Tom, that wasn't an easy call to make but I feel you made the right one.

At 11/18/13 04:42 PM, TomFulp wrote:

Could you tell us why you allowed the game on the site? How can I reach the author of it?

GEE, I DUNNO, PROBABLY BECAUSE THE INTERNET HAS UNIVERSAL ARTISTIC FREEDOM AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Seriously, how dense can these people be? I don't see them asking our government why the KKK and the WBC are allowed to say what they want (even though they are totally ignorant pricks). It's freedom of speech, and even though a lot of people abuse it to promote a negative and malicious agenda, it's a basic right guaranteed to everyone in most parts of the world and on the internet. I haven't played the game, so I can't honestly judge it's integrity. But regardless of whether or not it was artistic or just edgy, it's this basic freedom that makes the internet work, even though some people take malignant advantage of it.

At 11/18/13 04:31 PM, CypressDahlia wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:06 PM, derelix wrote:
You are being very dishonest here.

Excuse me while I go play the highly rated Meet n' Fuck games which feature art directly plagiarized from professional artists. A large portion of this community not only defends but +1's this stuff. Plz stop acting like they care so much about quality and creativity.

If people cared, they would take time out to leave critique, not simply "blam" things. I'm an artist of 7 yrs, recently turned professional. I've helped a lot of people develop creatively. I don't recall blatant discouragement or removal of their work as being part of the process.

So nobody that votes cares about quality or creativity because they don't vote how you want them to vote?

Ok, I am noticing a trend with people defending this decision....

Many people do leave a critique. Ever notice that big review section under every animation and game?

At 11/18/13 04:41 PM, Zero2562130 wrote: Considering they removed this and the Anita Sarkeesian game, they're telling the world this:

The Anita Sarkeesian game was total crap quality and was getting press inquiries within the first few hundred views, we actually assumed it was a plant to drive her traffic and press because the press never picks up on shit that fast. Plus it was a direct personal attack and man, I don't know how to say this without pissing off a million angsty teens but it's just not our culture around here. Beating up K-Fed and beating up a woman who wants to make you think about your video games are two different types of funny.

YES, NG came up out of celebrity killing, seal clubbing and even making light of school shooting but shit evolves. The NG you knew and loved just MIGHT be dead. I didn't even know anyone gave a shit about that Anita Sarkeesian game until today but it really was a shitty game with no effort (sorry whoever made it, if it wasn't by a PR team). And maybe the flippant removal of that game was the beginning of the end times for NG. Or maybe it was the first hairs growing on NG's chest because it's growing the fuck up. OK probably end times. Think of NG as entering a chrysalis and now we all get to wait and see what comes out on the other side.

Bad move.

At 11/18/13 04:37 PM, sweet21 wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:33 PM, ChrisReddie wrote: Some of the greatest pieces of art have been based on controversy. In fact some would argue that, that's what art is for.

Even then I won't touch stuff like a school shooting with a 10 foot pole that someone else was holding.

Then I would suggest not creating a site and promoting it as a place where people can share their flash creations. I would also suggest not making a game or playing a game based on a school shooting.

That's very easy to do without removing it from the site. I really wouldn't mind it if they were consistent. I don't see how the other spree shooter games and terrorism games are acceptable.

Oh, I guess nobody called in to complain about those, right?

At 11/18/13 05:06 PM, derelix wrote: Oh, I guess nobody called in to complain about those, right?

Every controversial game on this site resulted in weeks of complaining and bad press.

if it all comes down to it, i personally will pay for legal fees for the site

this is one of the last sites on the net that is not regulated by the government and or produces fear in culture... to be skinny, or faster, or buy this or that.. its differnet and i support that..

Good choice Tom.

At 11/18/13 04:16 PM, Zero2562130 wrote:

Don't you try to guilt me into your way of thinking. The fact of the matter would remain that, despite being a tragic event with many lives taken well before their time, I do not know these people personally.

As much as you'll demonize me for my comments, it won't change the reality that I and others who do not know these people or even live in the same state as them, are not affected by the school shooting; with that in mind, its effect on most people solely depends on their own emotional investment towards the event.

So you're saying that just because somebody is far away you shouldn't feel empathy toward them? That's actually kind of disgusting.

At 11/18/13 04:59 PM, derelix wrote:
Lets not kid ourselves here, this site is about making money, just like youtube. I'm sure tom cares about giving people a place to share their art, just as I'm sure the founders of youtube did when it started. Bashing one just because it's become fashionable is kind of, what's the word? Childish.

Because newgrounds makes the same revenue as google's youtube makes. right. Again you seem to just be trolling or just lack reading comprehension. Youtube policies are crap and everyone knows it. Tom doesn't blindly have anything censored willy nilly. Stop being a childish troll, its obvious now.

At 11/18/13 04:59 PM, Sammy589 wrote: Tom posted a comment on the flash submission, and then Tom forcibly took it down from Newgrounds, since a news outlet contacted him and he cares more about keeping up his revenue than letting creativity reign in the site he created and added a Columbine shooting flash game.

We lost all our brand advertisers years ago as a result of the content we defend on this site. We actually would have made a small fortune from the press this game would have gotten this week.

At 11/18/13 05:14 PM, TomFulp wrote: We lost all our brand advertisers years ago as a result of the content we defend on this site. We actually would have made a small fortune from the press this game would have gotten this week.

Well to clarify, more money than we will make without the press. Not really a small fortune, whatever that actually is.

I don't think you need to question your decision Tom. Occasionally something a submission needs to be removed, regardless of how much effort was put into it or what kind of message it is trying to send. As important as the quality of the submission is the delivery, if the delivery is offensive beyond justification, then it deserves to be removed.

You're not "censoring" so much as you are "cleaning." And the fact that you acknowledge what the author was trying to do shows that you didn't remove the submission for something petty.

At 11/18/13 04:16 PM, Zero2562130 wrote: Going back to your original comment, I would say "I'm sorry for your loss, but I will not personally remove the submission, as this website doctrines freedom of expression of all kinds (aside: Learn what freedom means, you fucking idiots). As we have a voting system that rates the quality of a submission, the removal of it pertains to reviewer reaction. Just keep in mind that whatever anyone has to say about the event, the memory of your loved ones will always, first and foremost, be with you, not them."

First things first: Newgrounds is a private, international corporation. Freedom of speech doesn't apply here, nor has it ever. It's like a dinner party: you may have the freedom to say whatever you want, but don't be surprised if talking about the hostess's boobs gets you kicked out. You're on private turf. Newgrounds has never claimed to be unmoderated, and offensive flashes have always been submitted with prior knowledge that they might be removed. Muh freedoms and all that runs into a dead end on that front.

Secondly: You're being a patronising asshole to people who have suffered emotional torment (I assume) beyond what you've ever experienced aside, Tom does have a responsibility for the content he hosts and the wider effects it has. It would be irresponsible not to take the views of the Sandy Hook parents into account when deciding whether or not he wants to continue hosting said flash. He doesn't personally know them sure: He doesn't personally know you, me or almost any other member of the NG community either. He has to balance this shit.

Protip: PiGPEN probably understands. In my limited experience with the dude, he's a cool enough guy and plus he has a shit load other places to host the flash. Whether or not it's on NG won't really make any difference to him.

At 11/18/13 02:01 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Tom also has to worry about the community, as the public outrage that could possibly follow something like this could result in the website going under. Some people here seem to be ignoring that very real scenario.

Is that actually likely? Has NG suffered through previous controversies?

Hi Tom. You did the right thing. Get dat knot outta your belly.

It's not like yourwebsite NEEDED that game. It don't. There's way more meaning to take it down in for the parents, than there is keeping it on there.

Everything's okay.

At 11/18/13 05:02 PM, Zachary wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:59 PM, Sammy589 wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:55 PM, TheMajormel wrote: I've played the game, and it wasnt as bad as everyone made it out to be I think. I hope you guys at least talked to the authour about it though

Tom posted a comment on the flash submission, and then Tom forcibly took it down from Newgrounds, since a news outlet contacted him and he cares more about keeping up his revenue than letting creativity reign in the site he created and added a Columbine shooting flash game.

You're ignorant, pigpen.

Without revenue, the site won't exist and NO content will be up. If you are implying that your content is the only content that is creative because it is offensive and provocative, then you are an arrogant prick.

I'm not Pigpen.

I'm implying that Tom Fulp is a hypocrite because he uploaded a flash game of shootings at a school obviously inspired by the Columbine school shooting, and now he deletes flash games that mirror different school shootings, in the name of ad revenue.

If you compare this flash to Fulp's "Pico's School," this one is much more artistic and a lot less offensive and provocative. At least this game doesn't have a swirly pile of shit sitting on a table in the janitor's closet.

Tom Fulp is a sellout. He'll delete any flash as long as he thinks it'll secure his ad revenue.

At 11/18/13 11:58 AM, TomFulp wrote: Over the years, a number of highly offensive games and movies have been published on Newgrounds and despite the hatemail and being dropped by just about every ad company in existence, we held firm on a policy of anti-censorship. Today, however, I pulled a reversal on that policy and maybe it was a huge mistake or maybe it was the right thing to do, I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the matter.

Noticed you re-wrote the initial post, and removed the authors name... have you spoken to him yet? No worries, sometimes you gotta pull rank, be the adult of the group... I still support your reasoning and decisions. Gotta be a better way to get free press, right? No need to feed those scavengers of other peoples misery :|

At 11/18/13 05:03 PM, TomFulp wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:41 PM, Zero2562130 wrote: Considering they removed this and the Anita Sarkeesian game, they're telling the world this:

The Anita Sarkeesian game was total crap quality and was getting press inquiries within the first few hundred views, we actually assumed it was a plant to drive her traffic and press because the press never picks up on shit that fast. Plus it was a direct personal attack and man, I don't know how to say this without pissing off a million angsty teens but it's just not our culture around here. Beating up K-Fed and beating up a woman who wants to make you think about your video games are two different types of funny.

YES, NG came up out of celebrity killing, seal clubbing and even making light of school shooting but shit evolves. The NG you knew and loved just MIGHT be dead. I didn't even know anyone gave a shit about that Anita Sarkeesian game until today but it really was a shitty game with no effort (sorry whoever made it, if it wasn't by a PR team). And maybe the flippant removal of that game was the beginning of the end times for NG. Or maybe it was the first hairs growing on NG's chest because it's growing the fuck up. OK probably end times. Think of NG as entering a chrysalis and now we all get to wait and see what comes out on the other side.

You know I could actually agree with your comment about attacks on individuals being treated differently but then you had to ruin it with that comment.

No it's not different. A game where you beat up "Kfed" isn't better than a game where you beat up Anita just because you happen to like Anita's views more. To quote south park, either all of it's ok or none of it is. You can't say we can make a game where we can torture Jesus but not one where we torture Muhammad. You can't say we can make fun of Obama but not Bush.

Ok you can, it's your site, but it wouldn't be great for the community. Bottom line, it's not about how you feel about the individuals being attacked or the particular tragedy. It's either ok or it's not.

I'm not pop music fan, but "kfeds" life is not less valuable than Anita's. The feelings of one group of victims shouldn't mean more than the feelings of the victim's of a similar tragedy.

I don't care for the Anita game, I don't care for Anita, but you can't make her immune from the kind of abuse you allow for everyone else just because you have a soft spot for the political views she is presenting. If that's how you want to run the site, don't pretend it's "everything by everyone"

Wait, I just realized that slogans not up there anymore. Ok that's kind of funny.

At 11/18/13 05:25 PM, VicariousE wrote: Noticed you re-wrote the initial post, and removed the authors name... have you spoken to him yet? No worries, sometimes you gotta pull rank, be the adult of the group... I still support your reasoning and decisions. Gotta be a better way to get free press, right? No need to feed those scavengers of other peoples misery :|

I didn't make any edits to the original post - I didn't include PiGPEN's name in the original post but it came up later on.

BTW I don't mean to make PiGPEN feel judged or pooped on with this decision.

At 11/18/13 05:27 PM, Zachary wrote: Pico's school doesn't reference a real life tragedy, and you don't play as a school shooter. You play as someone stopping school shooters actually.

Pico's School is a direct reference to the Columbine shooting. A 1999 flash game with the description "Goth kids have shot up your school" is directly linking the game to Columbine. Sure, you don't play as a school shooter. But it's still a flash game about a school shooting. It's crude.

At 11/18/13 05:03 PM, TomFulp wrote:

The Anita Sarkeesian game was total crap quality and was getting press inquiries within the first few hundred views, we actually assumed it was a plant to drive her traffic and press because the press never picks up on shit that fast.

This is extremely interesting because Anita is kind of a whore and has basically screwed a bunch of white knight pc idiots out of 180k on kickstarter thanks to her professional victim career.

If you do suspect it's a plant then it's definitely the right call to remove it and stop that cunt from making another penny off the back of clueless people online. However she is a public figure and a game mocking her is 100% kosher. She CHOSE to be in the limelight and if people think she's an idiot, then they can make the games.

The Anita Sarkeesian game got re-uploaded by the way.
To be fair, if it WAS a PR move, they covered it regardless of it being online or not.

In other news, human beings are shit.

I'm kind of torn between both decisions. I felt sick to my stomach after reading about the shootings, and thought to myself how something so fucked up can happen. On the other hand, NG was always a place where an artist can express his views on a tragedy, either finding it really sad or flat out making fun of it. I've always found it awesome that you have defended stuff in the past. But maybe there is a line to draw?

At 11/18/13 05:10 PM, TomFulp wrote:

At 11/18/13 05:06 PM, derelix wrote: Oh, I guess nobody called in to complain about those, right?

Every controversial game on this site resulted in weeks of complaining and bad press.

Then why haven't they been removed?

What makes this case special?

See this is what I'm trying to get across, when you pick and choose what is acceptable without having actual guidelines or a "line" to not cross, you make it obvious that this is more your personal playground and no longer has anything to do with people sharing their art with the world.

Maybe you think it's messed up that anybody would want to play these types of games but I've come here since I was in my early teens and I loved this place because it was the site where I could play well crafted games that I have never heard of but also play some crappy guilty pleasure. You may not like that I played some offensive or needlessly violent games, but they were cathartic when I needed them and I didn't grow up to kill or torture animals so I don't see what the issue is.

I understand wanting to have standards for your site, feel free, but simply picking and choosing what is acceptable based on how you feel at any given moment kind of kills what I thought this site was about.

Like I said before, we all know it's you're toy, you can post a naked picture of yourself on the front page and you would be within your rights but just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should.

The site is yours, but it was fed by a creative community that you rely on to keep it going, whether you want to admit it or not.
This site also profits on the angsty kids that come here to play a game where they can shoot people and virtually torture people, seems odd to pull this game when it's not even close to being the most exploitative thing on the site.

At 11/18/13 05:33 PM, Zachary wrote:

At 11/18/13 05:30 PM, Sammy589 wrote:

At 11/18/13 05:27 PM, Zachary wrote: Pico's school doesn't reference a real life tragedy, and you don't play as a school shooter. You play as someone stopping school shooters actually.

Pico's School is a direct reference to the Columbine shooting. A 1999 flash game with the description "Goth kids have shot up your school" is directly linking the game to Columbine. Sure, you don't play as a school shooter. But it's still a flash game about a school shooting. It's crude.

The columbine kids weren't goth.

It still doesn't have columbine or anything linking to columbine in it.

No matter how many times you repeat yourself, it does not make you correct.

Harris and Klebold were the definition of goth. They wore black trenchcoats and acted out.

Here's an article calling them goth: http://www.salon.com/1999/04/23/gamers/

"Goth clothing, bisexuality, the Internet and German industrial music — all of which have been called into question in association with the Littleton killers"

At 11/18/13 04:59 PM, Sammy589 wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:55 PM, TheMajormel wrote: I've played the game, and it wasnt as bad as everyone made it out to be I think. I hope you guys at least talked to the authour about it though

Tom posted a comment on the flash submission, and then Tom forcibly took it down from Newgrounds, since a news outlet contacted him and he cares more about keeping up his revenue than letting creativity reign in the site he created and added a Columbine shooting flash game.

Honestly, ng is a business and in this new age world money matters. honestly, in pico you were playing the role of a hero, that stopped a school shooting. The game pigpen uploaded was nice, but didnt offer me a challenge whatsoever. anyways, i think the game couldve honestly stayed up if it wasnt titled "sandy hook"

fuck it all, you made the right choice. Spent some time with the game and it just isn't worth the headache it would cause. You would get a few quick bucks up front but then all the headache from loosing your ad rev suppliers again. It is really a business decision. I can't even begin to understand how much this choice had to suck for you. I know you want to "stay true" to the site and the community, but sometimes you have to let go of somethings. Will stuff like this still get posted on Newgrounds? Yes. Will that stuff get pulled down? Maybe. At the end of the day YOU have to sleep at night.

Is this the end of Newgrounds? I sure as hell hope not! Newgrounds has so much more to offer than controversial shite. I didn't start coming here because of it. I have enjoyed some of it, but not stayed because of it. It is one piece of a giant picture here.

God bless ya Tom. Thoughts and prayers with you and your family. You made a huge decision today, and then had the balls to let all of us shit on it. I support you. A lot of us do and always will.