"Flashes about school shootings are bad mkay"

What is Pico?

No you see Pico is totally different.

Why? Because Tom Fulp has cognitive dissonance and will make up reasons to justify himself.

anything is fair game. you should be allowed to express yourself anyway you see fit BUT THAT BEING SAID. prohaps making a game about a real life school shooting is too far? it could of been a fictional school with fictional children and just been a statment that way there really wasn't any need to make it hit home with a real life shooting prohaps if they had chosen that route things would of been different. best to keep this in mind next time you want to make a statment on real life events

Next time if someone says that "NG made a game oh so controversy durr" then link them to all the sandy hook related videos on youtube, and when they say they don't get the point, that NG is not responsible for the actions of its users. Youtube does not draw the flak when a user uploads a video, why is that, hmm?

I don't think there should be censorship of any game, because it is ultimately the user's choice whether to keep it or not. An individual flash does not represent NG as a whole, and people may rage all they want, but it's the internet. Loads of hateful things are here and there, why put the negative spotlight on one particular site?

and I have a feeling there will be a " " " "journalist" " " " to "cover" this entire thing p soon

WHA????? Are you kidding me, then what can we imply in Newgrounds such as Games and all that?
I can't even think of anymore ideas?? Great.... now I can't even make a Fighter Engine game and etc..
Yeah, I get it Hurricane Shitty Screwed it up but, Wow I don't know what to say in this behalf... There I was
about to release KNA as a Game and now Ah..... man This is going to be a Tough Cookie to make, Tom!
Yeah, i agree with you! However a Censorship is going to very tough to make a Decent Flash Animation and etc...
Anyways, I'm going to try to animate but, It's going to be even more difficult to make newer ideas happen :/

Now for my final two cent on this matter, and hopefully my final post, since this topic, and this game, and my personal values and sensitivity towards has been making me think all night long about this.

Tom should bring back the "BASTARDS!" collection.

For those who don't know, the "BASTARDS!" collection was a page dedicated to works on this site that crossed the line when it came to humor, but did not cross the line when it came to the rules. The works were not racist, homophobic, or misogynistic, but just mean spirited and offensive. Like Too Soon jokes, the kind of jokes that are made at the expense of a person's death. There was a movie about Terri Schivo, a movie about Tupac dying, a game about an oil tanker crash, a couple 9/11 movies and games, and a movie about Dale Earnhart dying, and of course V-Tech Rampage.

One infamous regular was Eddie Ballin, a Filipino troll who made a movie about himself desecrating Mr. Roger's corpse(shortly after Mr. Rogers died) and another movie about himself sending LiveCorpse to hell for not voting 5 on one of his movies(Though to be fair, knowing LiveCorpse, he probably would have liked that movie[except on Fridays]).

Recently, after the most current site update, the Bastards collection, along with the Mature+ section has been removed, probably in an attempt for Tom and the gang to distance themselves from the admittedly far too edgy, touchey and squicky nature of the entries within.

Two things. First, all the movies I mentioned in Bastards collection are still up on this site. Second, the "BASTARD!" collection tag was a means to already distance Tom away from those kinds of movies in the first place.

When the moderators and administrative staff put the movies in question into "BASTARDS!" it sends out a message that says "We, the site owners of Newgrounds, found these movies way too offensive to be considered the norm, and we are the guys who distributed the celebrity assassin games. Put that into perspective."

It told people that they are going to be offended. If the BASTARDS! collection page was still active, than The Slaying of Sandy Hook would fit snugly into it, and I think no one would really have a problem, because people would then go "oh! It's just one of those "BASTARD! movies". I even remember the site page half condemning the humor saying "If you think these movies are funny, you might just be a heartless bastard yourself".

Welp there, after three very long TL;DR posts, I think I'm done, I just needed to vent because this is a very hot button issue where there is not a win scenario in sight, and I fear that even speaking about it might hurt somebody's feelings, and if they do, I am very sorry. If you have an offspring who was victim in a mass shooting of any kind, I apologize for any opinions I have expressed towards any games I mentioned in my posts that may have offended you, and I wish to offer some form of condolences if that is the case.

"Today I'm choosing respect for the Sandy Hook parents over respect for NG's censorship policies."

Tom i loved playing that game, but i love you more for being human. Well done.

I stand firmly on the right to creative expression, and I am against censorship. I'm pro gun, and I feel like our world is overpopulated...

...But there's something to be said about taste. Or tact about it. I can understand why you obliged for the Sandy Hook victim, Tom. You, being a father, also lended a hand in your judgment no doubt, and there should be zero fault for that.

You should always trust your gut.

In order for Newgrounds to hold itself to a higher standard, maybe this needed to happen. "If not here, than where can we find that kind of content?" It's snuff. There's already plenty of games that feature killing children, if that's their thing. I can dig the submission's intent, even if it did go about it kinda tastelessly... I hope the author can at least benefit from the publicity that they were surely going for, seeing as how so very little can be "shocking" these days.

...And shock gets attention; this is only going to get worse as time goes on... Authors are going to continue to try and push the boundaries, as the extremes of what people consider offensive or repulsive are ever-expanded. This will lead to even more shit getting pulled in the future.

When that comes, trust your gut. Users need to as well; we got whistles for a reason.

Why even post about it? To help yourself feel less guilty about giving up everything you one stood for? Being around as long as I have, I have seen you fall very, very far.

I thought Newgrounds together with 4chan were the last true free speech bastions of the Internet. Such a shame you made this decision Tom.

Newgrounds will turn into a political correct shithole in a few years, watch my words.

My definitive thoughts on the matter.

1) PiGPEN makes a game and explicitly states that it is to hurt people's feelings and open old wounds. Very uncharitable thing to do especially when many parents are still grieving the losses of their children.

2) Parents complain when said PiGPEN game is on Newgrounds.

3) @TomFulp feels for the parents, being a father himself, and takes this game down, because it could be any one of our kids that we are grieving, and we don't need a game like this to open old wounds.

4) NEED I SAY MORE DARN IT?!

I'm all FOR the freedom of speech and PiGPEN used it, darn right he did. Shock always attracts players, and that was precisely what PiGPEN was trying to do. Malicious, it was, but it did work. But Tom did the right thing. What was the right thing? Honour the memories of those who have been lost. Honour the parents who are grieving, especially in the face of someone trying to profit off tarnishing the memories of these children.

I think we're about done here; why are we talking about this any longer?

At 11/19/13 07:59 AM, Troisnyx wrote: I think we're about done here; why are we talking about this any longer?

Because this is a slippery slope and you know it

At 11/19/13 08:01 AM, MightyFool wrote:

At 11/19/13 07:59 AM, Troisnyx wrote: I think we're about done here; why are we talking about this any longer?

Because this is a slippery slope and you know it

I have a simple answer to this -- the limit to one's freedom is the freedom of another.

Live and learn.

I have a simple answer to this -- the limit to one's freedom is the freedom of another.

Live and learn.

So my rights end where your feelings begin?

Also vote people
http://strawpoll.me/732754/

At 11/19/13 08:09 AM, MightyFool wrote:

I have a simple answer to this -- the limit to one's freedom is the freedom of another.

Live and learn.

So my rights end where your feelings begin?

No, but your rights end where my rights begin. If everyone claimed the freedom to bash the Sandy Hook people who were dead and profit off it, that would not leave any freedoms for parents to be parents, and do the right thing for their lost children -- i.e. love them, and speak out as they do.

I speak as someone who has lost my mother and three siblings -- it would be so easy for people to claim the freedom of speech to slander my mother and siblings, but the whole purpose of freedoms is to make us human -- and untrammelled powers only makes us inhuman, and you know it.

I think you did the right thing.

At 11/19/13 08:14 AM, Troisnyx wrote: I speak as someone who has lost my mother and three siblings -- it would be so easy for people to claim the freedom of speech to slander my mother and siblings, but the whole purpose of freedoms is to make us human -- and untrammelled powers only makes us inhuman, and you know it.

Sucks that you lost your mom, but there are enough sites on the web where you can feel 'human'.
The internet is for everything by everyone. AKA not a giant hugbox.
If you feel offended by the content from a handful of 'inhuman' sites, don't visit them.

At 11/19/13 08:25 AM, MightyFool wrote:

At 11/19/13 08:14 AM, Troisnyx wrote: I speak as someone who has lost my mother and three siblings -- it would be so easy for people to claim the freedom of speech to slander my mother and siblings, but the whole purpose of freedoms is to make us human -- and untrammelled powers only makes us inhuman, and you know it.

Sucks that you lost your mom, but there are enough sites on the web where you can feel 'human'.
The internet is for everything by everyone. AKA not a giant hugbox.
If you feel offended by the content from a handful of 'inhuman' sites, don't visit them.

I can use your same logic and say, the whole world is an inhuman wastebox. If you're offended by what the world has to give, don't live in it.

But I live in this world, and choose to live -- and everyone who chooses to live deserves a chance to be who he ought to be. NG has never been a hugbox, and neither has it been politically correct (come on, it accepted my musical work and bassfiddlejones' musical work for crying out loud!). The people who do give hugs are few, as your own poll has shown. The fact that Tom himself has chosen to do what he did only goes to show that he wants to give the hug in spite of you and everyone else who stands against him.

Do what you think is right Tom you have made it this far so don't second guess your judgement.

I may be repeating what others have said, but this is my opinion. Where it may be true that you've opened the floodgates in the sense that you might be deemed hypocritical for removing/not removing future content, I think that's probably worth the risk.

Newgrounds is a website that allows for complete artistic freedom, however this isn't worldstarhiphop or 4chan. If anybody else had contacted you, then so be it. The truth is, it was a representative of the parents themselves. To prolong the pain of parents who have lost their child or choose not to host the cause, I think it's clear what the most important choice to make was in the bigger picture.

I saw the comment of a moderator that commented about the amount of views it would have brought in for NG. That's really not the point in my opinion. 'All exposure is good exposure' just necessarily isn't true. By keeping the game on, imagine how much further it could go? The situation definitely had the potential to go beyond viral, but that's not at all a good thing. There would be so much pressure on you as the owner of a site behind such a controversy to be honest.

Anyway, I think you made the right choice. ^ ^

At 11/19/13 07:48 AM, Phobotech wrote: I stand firmly on the right to creative expression, and I am against censorship. I'm pro gun, and I feel like our world is overpopulated...

Pro gun, is that a thing now? You are in favor of guns, hooray! Guns for everyone!

At 11/19/13 08:25 AM, MightyFool wrote: Sucks that you lost your mom, but there are enough sites on the web where you can feel 'human'.
The internet is for everything by everyone. AKA not a giant hugbox.
If you feel offended by the content from a handful of 'inhuman' sites, don't visit them.

If Newgrounds was not a place where I'd feel 'human', I'd never visit it.
Tom Fulp's decision is an inspiring example of being 'human'.
I don't know any people who would willing visit 'inhuman' places to delve in their own 'inhumanity'.
You're mistaking bad for good.

At 11/19/13 08:14 AM, Troisnyx wrote:

At 11/19/13 08:09 AM, MightyFool wrote:

I have a simple answer to this -- the limit to one's freedom is the freedom of another.

Live and learn.

So my rights end where your feelings begin?

No, but your rights end where my rights begin. If everyone claimed the freedom to bash the Sandy Hook people who were dead and profit off it, that would not leave any freedoms for parents to be parents, and do the right thing for their lost children -- i.e. love them, and speak out as they do.

I speak as someone who has lost my mother and three siblings -- it would be so easy for people to claim the freedom of speech to slander my mother and siblings, but the whole purpose of freedoms is to make us human -- and untrammelled powers only makes us inhuman, and you know it.

the parents have freedom to be parents.
Those who don't are the ones who actively go seeking material they find upsetting - just don't play the game.
Also the game had a very clear political message that guns need to be more strictly controlled.
I live in england so I'm not that bothered as guns here are illegal - but I urge americans to play the game and realise what its saying.

Theres tons of material going to offend people - only thing that makes this different is that it's specifically naming sandy hook - but it wouldn't have the same impact if it didn't.

Also - when did pigpen say that it's purpose was to 'open wounds' and hurt people? theres even a developer message at the end where he explains how people can get involved to impose stricter gun legislation.

Hopefully, as it seems this may be an exception of NGs no censorship stand due to the circumstances

No. Please don't do this to this website, Tom. Newgrounds is not just some collection of videos and flash games. It is one of the only places on the internet where you can be a edgy, immature teenager and revel in shock content without the moral brigade coming to stop you. When you start censoring it, it pretty much loses its purpose - without Newgrounds culture (a lot of which consists of shock content) I might as well go to Youtube or Miniclip.

Not to mention that you censored a good artist like PiGPEN, not some random schmuck.

It sucks for the parents, of course, but no one forces them to play it, right? The best thing about the internet is that you can ignore things that offend you. At best, you can put up a warning on the game saying that it is offensive and one should play it at their own peril.

You made a mistake and you can fix it. Just let him reupload the game. Please keep Newgrounds Newgrounds.

First of all, I would like to say that I think I appreciate a little bit the position you were put in here, and I can't really fault you for choosing either. It was a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't sort of thing really. I've long appreciated the none-censorship aspect of newgrounds, and the ability for games and movies to be prejudged before they're admitted to the site.

I don't think that this particular game was even a matter of "What? Too soon?", but one of tone.
Coming from Britain, I appreciate the message about gun laws, and I understand that in America at least (having lived there), that in most instances it requires shock value to instigate change a lot of the time (at least in order to settle down people whining about everything along the way). It provides a distraction.

However, in this instance I think that the shock value was unnecessary, because in the end it's just a computer game. The likelihood of it making a significant change on its own is quite minimal, so it causes shock without much of a desired result, if that was the intended use of the game.

In short, whatever you chose to do in this instance is fine with me, because there's no way out of the situation without someone getting pissed at you, and I don't think it's right for me to add to that.

Bad call Tom. Although understandable, since NG is too old to take risks.

At 11/18/13 11:58 AM, TomFulp wrote: Over the years, a number of highly offensive games and movies have been published on Newgrounds and despite the hatemail and being dropped by just about every ad company in existence, we held firm on a policy of anti-censorship. Today, however, I pulled a reversal on that policy and maybe it was a huge mistake or maybe it was the right thing to do, I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the matter.

It's not like we don't already slip on the censorship policy. We've removed racist and homophobic stuff (moreso than YouTube I would say) and we remove shovelware games built off common templates with zero passion.

This game, however, had a certain level of artfulness and craftsmanship to it. There was a visual and technical quality that revealed a serious level of effort and passion. It also had a political message I personally agree with; a statement on gun control and the problem of gun violence in the US. It attempted to demonstrate how things can play out differently with changes in our gun laws. It made you feel and it made you think.

It did so, however, in the context of the Sandy Hook massacre, recreating the event and putting you in the role of the shooter.

Newgrounds has faced harsh criticism in the past for standing firm on not censoring distasteful material, namely games about school shootings. All I can say is that this game took things to a new level in terms of the age of the victims and the realism of the terror they faced on that day.

I was personally contacted by Sandy Hook parents and they expressed their understanding of what the game was attempting to communicate, but also expressed the sadness and horror it made them feel, and their desire to have it removed. Today I'm choosing respect for the Sandy Hook parents over respect for NG's censorship policies.

Either decision on this matter puts a knot in my stomach. I'm of course interested in hearing thoughts on the matter, especially from artists on the site.

Actually you made the right choice.

Look, there's freedom of expression, then there's treading on someone's bloody wound. This isn't like some celebrity or politician making a show of themselves, it was a bunch of children and teachers who were fired upon. So the developer didn't stop to think that using Sandy Hook as an expressive form would actually bring up a problem. That is their fault. They did not consider those who suffered loss or its effects.

I don't mind the message, but next time they need to think of a better situation or environment they want to use.

To anyone who is deeply upset that Tom Fulp removed this game and considers this infringement on artistic freedom and free speech:

You are free to register your own domain and start your own competing games website if you wish. You can host whatever content you want there. Who knows - if it's good enough it may even surpass newgrounds over time. Put your money where your mouth is and do this. Good luck finding funding for it though once it gets big enough unless you're okay with a money sink and can indefinitely self-finance it.

The fact is Tom owns this site and it is his to do with as he wishes. So if you don't like it, go compete with him already. Go make a better site. Build up your site's popularity. I dare you to do a better job. And I wish luck and success on anyone who tries. What is stopping you, hmm??

I know this reeks of "If you don't like it, do it yourself" but really the only way to be satisfied is to do something yourself. Be your own boss. Do things your way. Go for it!

At 11/19/13 09:51 AM, NeonSpider wrote: To anyone who is deeply upset that Tom Fulp removed this game and considers this infringement on artistic freedom and free speech:

You are free to register your own domain and start your own competing games website if you wish. You can host whatever content you want there. Who knows - if it's good enough it may even surpass newgrounds over time. Put your money where your mouth is and do this. Good luck finding funding for it though once it gets big enough unless you're okay with a money sink and can indefinitely self-finance it.

I agree. Although we are part of the community and without the community, this website would not have lasted anywhere near this long, this is Tom's website. Newgrounds is the idea the blossomed in his own mind, he and the moderators are the ones that work day-in and day-out to keep things running, to create events and host competitions for the community. To give the artistic community a place to be so creative for so many years.

Because one thing got removed and for a justifiable reason, it's pointless for people to throw their toys out of their pram. Nobody's in a position where they have to stay here and upload here and I'm still going to view it as the same old Newgrounds. Some things just aren't worth it though.

I guess it's humanly impossible to find a solution to this problem so that everyone is 100% happy with it.

Some will hate you for this, some will like you, in this special case I would agree with your decision. As long as there isn't too much censorship on NG, most people here will accept such actions - even when they have to bite their tongue from time to time.