Islam-Apologetic Feminists

[Fluffington]

This guy sums it up quite perfectly

Top 10 Quran Quotes Every Woman Must See

Women in the Quran

Why do most feminists keep on defending Islam relentlessly when Islam is quite possibly the most anti-women religion on the planet? If someone goes up to a feminist form to criticize the treatment of women in Islamic societies, she will be bombarded with comments calling her a "racist". Why exactly? Islam is a religion, not a race, so it's nonsense to call criticism of Islam "Racist".

Pure insanity.

[Korriken]

At 10/22/13 04:37 PM, Fluffington wrote:

Why do most feminists keep on defending Islam relentlessly when Islam is quite possibly the most anti-women religion on the planet?

I got nothing. It makes no sense to me either.

[poxpower]

At 10/22/13 04:37 PM, Fluffington wrote:

Why do most feminists keep on defending Islam relentlessly when Islam is quite possibly the most anti-women religion on the planet?

I've never ever seen any feminist defend Islam ( and religions in general), where are you getting this from??

Who I do see defend islam and call others racist if they say it's fucking retarded are faux-intellectual leftist liberal hipsters. Basically everyone who's in college in any kind of arts. Ya know. Losers.

[RydiaLockheart]

At 10/22/13 07:01 PM, poxpower wrote: Who I do see defend islam and call others racist if they say it's fucking retarded are faux-intellectual leftist liberal hipsters. Basically everyone who's in college in any kind of arts. Ya know. Losers.

Probably the same bitch that told me that wearing a low-cut tank top on a really hot day in July was perpetuating rape culture. No, really. I didn't even KNOW her.

There's Femen, but they're not Islamic as far as I know. Where are you hearing about this sort of thing?

[24901miles]

They're probably hypocrites.

The Qur'an says a lot of things which don't mix with modern Western Culture. So does the Bible. Using the model for Christianity and Judaism, it could be possible to salvage large parts of religions like Islam without promoting their violent or subjugative roots.

At 10/22/13 09:26 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote: There's Femen, but they're not Islamic as far as I know. Where are you hearing about this sort of thing?

What about Femen?

[RydiaLockheart]

At 10/22/13 09:38 PM, 24901miles wrote: What about Femen?

She's no longer with Femen, but this woman quit the group for its "Islamophobia," which indicates to me there may be an idealogical divide forming. It could be just her, but I wonder if any of the other women have a similar opinion.

I can see where the whole topless protest thing would turn off a lot of Muslim women who might otherwise listen to them though.

[Angry-Hatter]

Hi everybody. A feminist here, as well as an atheist.

The only REAL difference between Islam and the other male-dominated monotheistic religions (i.e. Christianity and Judaism)? There are still a number of significantly large, culturally conservative Islamic segments of the world that still practice the actual tenets of their religious text. The Koran and the Bible are more or less equally horrendous on women's rights, it's just that the countries made up of predominantly Christian populations have moved further away from the source material than their Islamic counterparts.

I have equal amounts of tolerance for Islamic suppression of women as I do for Christian suppression of women, which is to say none.

[Iron-Hampster]

At 10/22/13 07:01 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/22/13 04:37 PM, Fluffington wrote:

Why do most feminists keep on defending Islam relentlessly when Islam is quite possibly the most anti-women religion on the planet?

I've never ever seen any feminist defend Islam ( and religions in general), where are you getting this from??

probably just an assumption, most feminists are liberals so it would make sense to believe this, whether it's true or not.

[Warforger]

At 10/22/13 04:37 PM, Fluffington wrote: Why do most feminists keep on defending Islam relentlessly when Islam is quite possibly the most anti-women religion on the planet? If someone goes up to a feminist form to criticize the treatment of women in Islamic societies, she will be bombarded with comments calling her a "racist". Why exactly? Islam is a religion, not a race, so it's nonsense to call criticism of Islam "Racist".

Pure insanity.

Islam tends to be unfairly treated since its terrorists get the most attention and few actually understand it in its context. I mean a good one being quotes from the Quran seeming to call for the eradication of Jews when in fact all they were saying was a condemnation of a group of Jews who had turned against Mohammad and the tribes of Medina against an agreement they had signed. Furthermore people seem to think that just because fundamentalists are doing something it must come straight from their Holy Text. Things like Burqa's have little to do with Islam and are mostly just a cultural thing (Syria is actually one of the few countries in the world which has bans of wearing the Burqa in certain areas like school), same thing with Suicide bombing, yes religious people do it but it doesn't have any basis in Islam and is actually more of a modern invention for Islamic extremists being introduced back in the 1980's. These attacks against Islam are like those who try to lump Hitler in as a Christian because some Nazi's used crosses and said "Gott mit uns", which of course ignores the fact that in his private writings he mocks Christianity and even goes as far as to say that he felt that Germany would have been better off had the Arab armies conquered France and Germany and spread Islam to Germany to replace Christianity because to him Christianity was a weak religion and Islam was a strong one. Oh great Hitler praised Islam, Islam is so evilllllllll.

That said Islam is no more anti-woman than Confucianism, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc.. And if you're wondering why people don't think like you, then maybe you should just find them and ask them yourself, present your evidence argue your case. You're not going to find very convincing answers from the people you're not talking about.

[Entice]

I don't get it either. Whenever a see a Muslim woman wearing a burkha on the Texas Tech campus I think about talking to them and just asking them why they wear it, why it's important to them, etc.

There are a lot of retarded Christians here too who come and preach against drugs, sex before marriage, and gays

Pretty much everything I stand for!

[lapis]

At 10/29/13 12:59 AM, Warforger wrote: I mean a good one being quotes from the Quran seeming to call for the eradication of Jews

There isn't such a Qur'an quote. You're thinking of a hadith.

when in fact all they were saying was (...)

*when in fact I, as a liberal Westerner, interpret these texts as having been (...)

You're telling people who spent their lives reading the Qur'an and studying fiqh that they're doing it wrong. They may have ideological bias, but so may you.

Things like Burqa's have little to do with Islam

Except Islam tells women to cover up.

same thing with Suicide bombing,

But then again, both jihad and martyrdom are Islamic concepts.

That said Islam is no more anti-woman than Confucianism, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc..

What doctrine of Buddhism permits men to beat their wives for disciplinary purposes?

[Camarohusky]

At 10/29/13 04:43 AM, lapis wrote: There isn't such a Qur'an quote. You're thinking of a hadith.

So?

You're telling people who spent their lives reading the Qur'an and studying fiqh that they're doing it wrong. They may have ideological bias, but so may you.

And?

Except Islam tells women to cover up.

And Christianity (as well as numerous other religions) refer to woman as property of their husbands akin to a pot or a table.

But then again, both jihad and martyrdom are Islamic concepts.

Jesus was a Muslim!?!?!?!?!

What doctrine of Buddhism permits men to beat their wives for disciplinary purposes?

And?

Cherry pick all you want, but you missed the point. The point is that when people call out Islam for its faults, they are like a pot calling a kettle black. All major religions that have held political power have done nasty shitty things and all have done so according to readings of their holy texts. To claim that any one is worse is just plain disingenuous. That includes calls by atheists. (you all have Stalin on your side)

Now, the points have been made before, but have yet to be connected. As Angryhatter said, feminists hate all form of female oppression regardless of where it comes from and regardless of which religion it comes from. The point has also been ade that most feminists are liberals and thus have a distaste for the conservative ideology of "Muslims all be Terrorists, so let;s blame ALL our problems on them!" Combine that with the final point that has been made that almost all of the major powerful religions are historically pretty shitty when it comes to women, but the Middle East has yet to break the binds of their religious shackles like much of the rest of the world.

In short, feminists don't like religious misogyny and it seems that the Islamic world for the most part has yet to reach the 20th century in that aspect. Yet, being liberals, they have a strong distaste for the blind, ignorant, and irrational hatred of Islam that the stupid love to harbor. Balancing this can lead to a strange borderline between defending feminism and defending Islam against unwarranted hatred.

[lapis]

At 10/29/13 12:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: So?

So that's a factual inaccuracy that doesn't look pretty.

And?

And that gives his opponents some edge. Note that he's basically saying that his opponents are reading it wrong. Now in my view it's all a matter of interpretation, but if you believe that there are right and wrong interpretations that he's like a guy who watched two or three Feynman lectures taking on physics PhDs on a matter concerning quantum electrodynamics.

And Christianity (as well as numerous other religions) refer to woman as property of their husbands akin to a pot or a table.

So then they should wear the burqa?

Jesus was a Muslim!?!?!?!?!

Yes, he said he was right before the part were he exhorted his followers to wage holy war upon the infidels until they convert or pay tribute.

Cherry pick all you want, but you missed the point. The point is that when people call out Islam for its faults, they are like a pot calling a kettle black. All major religions that have held political power have done nasty shitty things and all have done so according to readings of their holy texts. To claim that any one is worse is just plain disingenuous. That includes calls by atheists. (you all have Stalin on your side)

Listen to me: I agree that the teachings and doctrines of every religion are variable. At any point in time, any religion can be the most liberal and any other the most regressive. This variability is even more present in followers: the most regressive follower of one religion will be always be more regressive and the most liberal follower of another (assuming a reasonable amount of adherents for each religion). So in that case you're right.

But the holy texts of the religions are like magnets: at all times they pull at a religion, projecting a force upon it that directs it to some sort of centre. And for Islam, that centre is simply much more violent and prone to inequality than Christianity. For example, Jesus never instructed his followers to wage war against non-believers, to ambush them or to strike terror into their hearts. Instead he told them to turn the other cheek when attacked. And even though you'll always have people who interpret passages certain ways, and who pick and choose different commandments to follow, when you look at their follower populations over a long period of time who will start to notice a difference.

Now I don't mind people attacking the view that Islam is something static and unmovable, but the alternative shouldn't be some lah-di-dah, airy-fairy (thank you, David Cameron) conviction that Islam is just another religion that is in no way better or worse than its competitors. Islam is worse, fundamentally so, and not recognising that also means that you will not move closer to fixing it.

[Warforger]

At 10/29/13 04:43 AM, lapis wrote: There isn't such a Qur'an quote. You're thinking of a hadith.

What I was referring to was when Muhammad went to Medina and solved a crisis there between the tribes of Medina. He got them to sign a pact where they promised to not betray each other and stand together. The Jewish group there from the start was ardently against Muhammad and his Islamic movement, although a couple of Jews are noted for their defense of Muhammad. When Medina was being attacked by the tribes from Mecca that had first cast out Muhammad the Jewish Group in Medina turned against them all. In this part there were some quotes which people used as examples of antisemitism (at this point this is a stupid word, well given the context) by Islamist groups and anti-Islam people.

You're telling people who spent their lives reading the Qur'an and studying fiqh that they're doing it wrong. They may have ideological bias, but so may you.

That's not what I'm referring too. What I'm referring to are the Islamic Fundamentalists like the Taliban who are being condemned by schools of Islam for interpreting the Qu'ran incorrectly and grossly brutal.

But then again, both jihad and martyrdom are Islamic concepts.

A jihad doesn't mean violence necessarily. You can wage your own personal jihad by say kicking a drug habit or going out of your way to go to charities and help people. Martyrdom likewise is an old concept which includes nearly every religion, from Christianity (whose leader is a martyr) to Buddhism (well the "paradise" in Buddhism is destroying your soul and ending your existence, even then they still burn themselves as an act of protest).

What doctrine of Buddhism permits men to beat their wives for disciplinary purposes?

Buddhism stresses that the wife should be obedient to the husband, so basically the entire religions view on women.

[Migel]

First of, many of the feminist do attack the Islam, but this has no fruitful product in most cases because when an outsider attacks your culture or religion you defend it and the doors to debate close. And the whole female right issue turns into a religion/culture comparison. Like above, to proof my point, a fruitless debate aside to the point and with no outcome. Stop it

However this can trigger some Islamic women to become feminist who are in a better ( know how of the culture ) and worse ( stigmatized at best, killed otherwise and also bound emotionally to the religion ) position, to start a debate about it with their own culture.

This caused a bit of an uproar here and there on the internet, because this group seems to have defended some cases in favor of Muslim rapist. For us this is a ultimate sign of hypocrisy, however for them taking baby-steps in the right direction in a framework where religion still holds all the cards might be the only way to go forward. So I say it's their fight, go for it girls.

Then finally there is this small group of western Islam apologetic feminist, who by the way can be called a non-issue due to the size of their group and ridiculous obvious alternative motives. Naming things like burkas an essential step to make a woman less of an object for men...of course their absurdness attracts most the media causing yet another blow to feminist credibility.

[MrPercie]

Islam may be stuck in the middle ages.

But Christianity did not bring Europe out of its middle ages.

You have to feel apologetic when all muslims are going to be affected by islamaphobes and racists who blame them for the ALL the worlds problems because they were born a dirty muslim nig nog rather than some white child molesting bishop.

But I see nothing wrong with objecting and outlawing certain traditions and customs a religion has because they are promoting rape culture, child marriage, wife beating and so on.

[Warforger]

At 10/30/13 04:16 PM, MrPercie wrote: Islam may be stuck in the middle ages.

But Christianity did not bring Europe out of its middle ages.

On the contrary, if it wasn't for the Monasteries and the Catholic church then all of the advancements of Europe before the Dark Ages would've been lost. It was the Christian Monks who were keeping reading and writing alive, keeping books of the Bible around as well as the works of the ancient Greeks like Aristotle and Socrates. They essentially kept the record of the classical era. Prior to the Renaissance and really what started the whole thing was the Scholastic movement which took interest in the philosophy of the Greeks and Romans. They revived the interest in the thinking again and gave rise to the Renaissance.

On top of this if you look at the two main alphabets of Europe i.e. Cyrillic and Roman, those were both spread by Christianity, thus Christianity became responsible for spreading literacy across Europe.

You have to feel apologetic when all muslims are going to be affected by islamaphobes and racists who blame them for the ALL the worlds problems because they were born a dirty muslim nig nog rather than some white child molesting bishop.

The problem is when people don't fully understand such a foreign concept. It's like if a foreigner unfamiliar with American culture (which is pretty rare at this point in terms of people you meet) came to America and was wondering why even Atheists would say thinks like "Oh my God" or "JESUS CHRIST WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!" much like how people are scared when they hear Muslims chanting "Allah Akbar". You can tell most people don't have an understanding of the Middle East mostly with how many lies the Bush administration got people to believe were fact about the Iraq War. Not the part about Chemical weapons, but the part about them being in alliance with Al-Qaeda.

But I see nothing wrong with objecting and outlawing certain traditions and customs a religion has because they are promoting rape culture, child marriage, wife beating and so on.

"rape culture" I've always found kinda dumb, as far as I know there's nothing in any religious book of a major religion that promotes rape. The whole think about raping women wearing mini skirts or heels is all over the place, like South Africa (the country with one of the highest rates of infant rape in the world.....yes I'm sorry I've ruined your day by using that word ), and may not really be determined by religion but by culture.

Child Marriage? Depends on your definition of child honestly, 16 was not a "child" by older standards.

[HeavenDuff]

There are many feminist ideologies. Feminism is an umbrella term that really doesn't say much anymore. So there are some dumbass retarded "feminists" who didn't read Edward Saïd properly and who think that post-colonialism means accepting everything about other cultures in fear of sounding "ethnocentric" or xenophobic. But that's retarded and not all feminist schools are like this.

At 10/22/13 07:01 PM, poxpower wrote: Who I do see defend islam and call others racist if they say it's fucking retarded are faux-intellectual leftist liberal hipsters. Basically everyone who's in college in any kind of arts. Ya know. Losers.

You could have a made a point there, but you had to say stupid shit about arts. Good job looking like a retard... again...

[MrPercie]

At 10/31/13 11:00 PM, Warforger wrote: On the contrary, if it wasn't for the Monasteries and the Catholic church then all of the advancements of Europe before the Dark Ages would've been lost. It was the Christian Monks who were keeping reading and writing alive, keeping books of the Bible around as well as the works of the ancient Greeks like Aristotle and Socrates. They essentially kept the record of the classical era. Prior to the Renaissance and really what started the whole thing was the Scholastic movement which took interest in the philosophy of the Greeks and Romans. They revived the interest in the thinking again and gave rise to the Renaissance.

I thought Islamic scholars did the same? did they have the library of Alexandria and shit like that?

On top of this if you look at the two main alphabets of Europe i.e. Cyrillic and Roman, those were both spread by Christianity, thus Christianity became responsible for spreading literacy across Europe.

Yeah but didnt the muslims spread arabic (and possibly persian) across africa and asia? Didn't that help spread literacy?

[laughatyourfuneral]

At 10/22/13 07:01 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/22/13 04:37 PM, Fluffington wrote:

Who I do see defend islam and call others racist if they say it's fucking retarded are faux-intellectual leftist liberal hipsters. Basically everyone who's in college in any kind of arts. Ya know. Losers.

HaHa, losers indeed

[Angry-Hatter]

At 11/1/13 03:23 PM, laughatyourfuneral wrote: HaHa, losers indeed

Hahaha, ad hominem arguments are the best.

[lapis]

At 10/29/13 11:17 PM, Warforger wrote: When Medina was being attacked by the tribes from Mecca that had first cast out Muhammad the Jewish Group in Medina turned against them all.

And then, as punishment, Muhammad had all adult males of the tribe (determined by whether they had pubes or not) slaughtered, and all the women and children sold into slavery. You give this detailed history of what happened to the Banu Qurayza and then suddenly stop narrating at their 'betrayal', and decide not to mention Muhammad's response. Tell me, Warforfer, why did you stop where you did?

That's not what I'm referring too. What I'm referring to are the Islamic Fundamentalists like the Taliban who are being condemned by schools of Islam for interpreting the Qu'ran incorrectly and grossly brutal.

They have minor theological differences over issues such as when to declare offensive jihad when there is no caliph. Nothing more. You want people to see being scolded by scholars, look at what they say about Muslims collaborating with the Jews.

A jihad doesn't mean violence necessarily.

Oh for fuck's sake. When the word "jihad" is invoked in Arabic, it means war. Always. This "inner jihad" crap can be traced back to a weak hadith, and is only mentioned on English-(or at least non-Arabic) speaking blogs and media.

Martyrdom likewise is an old concept which includes nearly every religion, from Christianity

A martyr in Christianity is someone who dies opposing oppression. A martyr in Islam is someone who dies imposing oppression.

[Feoric]

At 11/2/13 05:40 PM, lapis wrote: A martyr in Christianity is someone who dies opposing oppression. A martyr in Islam is someone who dies imposing oppression.

Pro-democracy protesters during the Arab Spring? Benazir Bhutto?

[lapis]

At 11/2/13 05:44 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 11/2/13 05:40 PM, lapis wrote: A martyr in Christianity is someone who dies opposing oppression. A martyr in Islam is someone who dies imposing oppression.

Pro-democracy protesters during the Arab Spring? Benazir Bhutto?

Where's the link to Islamic scholars declaring them martyrs?

[Iron-Hampster]

At 11/2/13 05:44 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 11/2/13 05:40 PM, lapis wrote: A martyr in Christianity is someone who dies opposing oppression. A martyr in Islam is someone who dies imposing oppression.

Pro-democracy protesters during the Arab Spring? Benazir Bhutto?

we know that they were trying to impose Shariah Law by now.

Democracy is over rated as hell, especially in parts of the world where it's all a contest of which majority can impose it's will on others and loot the economy.

[Razefan]

Islam from the Quran is not nearly the most anti-feminist religion on the planet

for example, burqas and veils aren't even in the Quran. It literally only says to "dress modestly" but of course that is taken to extremes

Forced marriage isn't even allowed in the Quran

Forced marriages are clearly not acceptable according to The Quran:

O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit the women by forcibly/unwillingly... [4:19]

Marriage is done by mutual agreement:

And if you divorce the women, and they have reached their required interim period, then do not prevent/hinder them that they marry their partners if they mutually agree between themselves in a kind/equitable manner... [2:232]

In the following verse, it is also made clear that a couple undergoing divorce can only get back together if they both wish to:

And the divorced women shall wait for three menstruation periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands would then have just cause to return together, if they both wish to reconcile... [2:228]

And yes Muhammad did marry a young girl, but remember that this was in a much different time and place and back than it wasn't considered a bad thing.

Blessed Virgin Marry was 14 when she gave birth to jesus

Not to mention that the Quran is the only abrahamic religion to specifically states that a woman cannot move in with her husband until use is old enough and fit for a sexual relationship

I'm not saying islam has equal rights, not nearly
but its anti feminism is highly exaggerated due to the immense misconceptions created by extremists...

[Reasonabletheist]

Feminism stopped being proper feminism years ago. It's now just a way of makring yourself out as a special little snowflake who needs extra attention because youre so "oppressed" or, if you're a guy,, a way of getting into girl's form your university's pants.

[SmilezRoyale]

Two possible explanations:

1. Feminists do not actually oppose male Chauvinism, rather, they oppose Beta males whose supposed power and influence in society they feel is undeserved. If non-Muslim men all started to behave towards women the way Muslim men do, Feminists would be silenced.

2. Feminism is lower on the cultural Lefts Hierarchy than Anti-Racism.

[MrPercie]

Go to arabia, get raped by muslims

Go to Iraq, get Bombed by americans

Go to Palestine, get bombed by israelis

FUN FUN FUN!

[Zachary]

At 10/22/13 07:01 PM, poxpower wrote: Who I do see defend islam and call others racist if they say it's fucking retarded are faux-intellectual leftist liberal hipsters. Basically everyone who's in college in any kind of arts. Ya know. Losers.

Yeah, because anyone who wants to enjoy art is a loser right? That's a pretty moronic thing to say considering you whore your site out on a website that hosts artists and the like.

It's also just flat out ignorant.