Prison Statistics In The Us

[AmateurPsychonaut]

So, America, the Land of The Free. I'm sure most of us are familiar with someone who has been incarcerated, or currently is incarcerated. I've been aware of these facts for a long time, but I'd like to draw more awareness and get some opinions. The United States has more prison inmates (both per capita, and overall) than anywhere else in the world.

The United States (according to most recent data) has a prison population of 2,019,234 prisoners. The second closest country to us? China, with 1,549,000 prisoners.

Per capita, the US locks up 715 out of every 100,000 people. The second closest country per capita? Russia, which locks up 584 out of every 100,000 people.

Now, I'm aware that countries like China likely aren't completely honest about their statistics on matters such as this. I'm also aware that in China, they'll execute you at the drop of a hat. There's also the matter of North Korea, where they'll send an entire family to a forced labor camp for suspicions about the actions of one. However, something is seriously wrong here!

I'm sure that ending the War on Drugs would cease a lot of this unnecessary incarceration, but still, it's ridiculous that there are more citizens in the Land of The Free who are locked in cages, than anywhere else in the world. Meanwhile, the Dutch are having to close 8 prisons due to a lack of crime. I place a lot of the blame on private, for-profit prisons and the entire prison-industrial complex. The prison system (and "justice" system in general) is in need of major reform. Any opinions on this?

[Camarohusky]

No this is NOT a case of the private prison industrial complex (keyword for people who want to blame "the man" but have no logial way to blame him) going crazy. This is a case of a developed country (Russia and China are NOT developed) that has serious social problems both leading to first time offenses and to recidivism.

Russia and China don't have the well established legal system, police force, are courts of a developed country so their statistics are automatically skewed. The US on the other hand has a very well developed court system, and a police force that has extremely low corruption.

What causes the US' high prison population is both societal on the lay person's end and societal on the criminal's end.

Our country prides itself on being a law and order country. The average person has a "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality. We prize our laws and our order, so we look sharply down our noses upon those who would seek to circumvent them. In my state it was not the legislature that put into effect the biggest sentence increases (the legislature has been trying to lower sentences for budgetary reasons for years), it was the voters.

On the other side, we have a great deal of blight for a developed country. This blight makes the criminal life very attractive or a near necessity for far too many people. This leads to a high level of crime which when combined with a well functioning legal system leads to high levels of incarceration.

Perhaps the biggest problem, and the most fixable one, is the complete and utter lack of services for released convicts. Far too often society bumps them out the door and not only leaves them to fend for themselves, but marks them as bad and avoids them. This further increases the risk of recidivism (of which some is inevitable.) Society needs to make the landing from prison as soft as possible to make re-entering (or entering for the first time) legitimate society as easy as possible, to encourage released convicts to go straight and stay straight.

So, NO. It's not the prisons' fault there are so many prisoners.

[AmateurPsychonaut]

At 9/27/13 11:21 PM, Camarohusky wrote: No this is NOT a case of the private prison industrial complex (keyword for people who want to blame "the man" but have no logial way to blame him) going crazy. This is a case of a developed country (Russia and China are NOT developed) that has serious social problems both leading to first time offenses and to recidivism.

That being said, why don't other developed countries have the huge problem with mass incarceration and prison overcrowding than we do?

Russia and China don't have the well established legal system, police force, are courts of a developed country so their statistics are automatically skewed. The US on the other hand has a very well developed court system, and a police force that has extremely low corruption.

I'm aware of this. However, them being skewed to the point of 500,000 or greater inmates? I'd certainly hope not. Even then, let's say they were skewed to such massive proportions. Based on the populations of them compared to us, there's still no reason for this massive prison population we have

What causes the US' high prison population is both societal on the lay person's end and societal on the criminal's end.

So ridiculous mandatory-minimums, three strikes laws, and sentencing disparities play no role in this whatsoever?

Our country prides itself on being a law and order country. The average person has a "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality. We prize our laws and our order, so we look sharply down our noses upon those who would seek to circumvent them. In my state it was not the legislature that put into effect the biggest sentence increases (the legislature has been trying to lower sentences for budgetary reasons for years), it was the voters.

Well, I find it so incredibly ironic that so many people place such a high value on their own freedom, while being so willing to take away the freedom of another. Yes, violent criminals should be incarcerated. As should people who commit any crime where there is a victim (burglary, fraud, etc.) but things like three strikes laws and mandatory minimums aren't warranted for nonviolent offenders.

On the other side, we have a great deal of blight for a developed country. This blight makes the criminal life very attractive or a near necessity for far too many people. This leads to a high level of crime which when combined with a well functioning legal system leads to high levels of incarceration.

I agree. That being said, that's still no reason for the rates to be as high as they are.

Perhaps the biggest problem, and the most fixable one, is the complete and utter lack of services for released convicts. Far too often society bumps them out the door and not only leaves them to fend for themselves, but marks them as bad and avoids them. This further increases the risk of recidivism (of which some is inevitable.) Society needs to make the landing from prison as soft as possible to make re-entering (or entering for the first time) legitimate society as easy as possible, to encourage released convicts to go straight and stay straight.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

So, NO. It's not the prisons' fault there are so many prisoners.

I didn't directly place blame in the prisons. I think a lot of it has to do with crony capitalism. There are some very rich and powerful people high-up in the private prison industry. Naturally they're going to have the palms of the politicians greased, to some degree or another. Look at the imprisonment statistics of countries which don't allow for-profit incarceration. Significantly lower rates (though that's anywhere), and more lax sentencing laws than here in the US.

Then there's the matter of the near free labor. I read an article a while back on the massive availability of cheap labor from prisons. I mean, think about it, you pay these people cents a day to do all of this work, think about (again) the profit margins which come about as a result of this.

[Camarohusky]

At 9/28/13 12:02 AM, AmateurPsychonaut wrote: That being said, why don't other developed countries have the huge problem with mass incarceration and prison overcrowding than we do?

Few other countries with as well developed judiciary arms have the level of social issues the US has.

I'm aware of this. However, them being skewed to the point of 500,000 or greater inmates? I'd certainly hope not. Even then, let's say they were skewed to such massive proportions. Based on the populations of them compared to us, there's still no reason for this massive prison population we have

When you have police precincts not only turning a blind eye to crime, but actively leading the crime, you can expect the number of incarcerations to be significantly lower.

So ridiculous mandatory-minimums, three strikes laws, and sentencing disparities play no role in this whatsoever?

No, they're a result of our social issues, not the cause.

Well, I find it so incredibly ironic that so many people place such a high value on their own freedom, while being so willing to take away the freedom of another. Yes, violent criminals should be incarcerated. As should people who commit any crime where there is a victim (burglary, fraud, etc.) but things like three strikes laws and mandatory minimums aren't warranted for nonviolent offenders.

We value freedom heavily, with the exception for those who violate it. We treat freedom like an expensive vase. It's something to be highly prized and protected, but if you break your own vase, you're SOL.

I agree. That being said, that's still no reason for the rates to be as high as they are.

Actually, it's a very logical reason for rates to be as high as they are. Let's also not forget the American bravado here. America has always been a "me first" nation. Sure, we're willing to help others when it counts, but overall, we view life and its goals as "what can I do to make MY life better?" This leads to a great deal of people who are in life for themselves and their community only. They don't really care if they hurt or inconvenience others so long as they get what they want. Europe has this a bit, but Europe is still far more community oriented than the US. In Europe people are far more likely to think of the while over the individual. This attitude is rarely criminal too. Just spend a day noticing it. You'll see it on the roads, in restaurants, and everywhere else. Americans who are asserting themselves over others, at the expense of others, and making a show of superiority while they're at it. Hell, just watch those Wendy's commercials and you'll see it.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I didn't directly place blame in the prisons. I think a lot of it has to do with crony capitalism. There are some very rich and powerful people high-up in the private prison industry. Naturally they're going to have the palms of the politicians greased, to some degree or another. Look at the imprisonment statistics of countries which don't allow for-profit incarceration. Significantly lower rates (though that's anywhere), and more lax sentencing laws than here in the US.

Like I pointed out before, most of the harsh sentencing rules came from initiatives, not from legislative action. We the People made them, not our elected representatives.

Then there's the matter of the near free labor. I read an article a while back on the massive availability of cheap labor from prisons. I mean, think about it, you pay these people cents a day to do all of this work, think about (again) the profit margins which come about as a result of this.

I have heard the claim of the "for profit" "prison industrial complex" menace, but not once have I seen any proof of it causing higher sentences.

[AmateurPsychonaut]

At 9/28/13 12:44 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 9/28/13 12:02 AM, AmateurPsychonaut wrote: That being said, why don't other developed countries have the huge problem with mass incarceration and prison overcrowding than we do?

Few other countries with as well developed judiciary arms have the level of social issues the US has.

I won't disagree with this.

I'm aware of this. However, them being skewed to the point of 500,000 or greater inmates? I'd certainly hope not. Even then, let's say they were skewed to such massive proportions. Based on the populations of them compared to us, there's still no reason for this massive prison population we have

When you have police precincts not only turning a blind eye to crime, but actively leading the crime, you can expect the number of incarcerations to be significantly lower.

I suppose this is a fact, but what way can we know the true extent of police corruption in various other countries?

So ridiculous mandatory-minimums, three strikes laws, and sentencing disparities play no role in this whatsoever?

No, they're a result of our social issues, not the cause.

I agree that they're not the cause of our social issues, but they do, in fact, play a part in the massive rates of incarceration we see today.

Well, I find it so incredibly ironic that so many people place such a high value on their own freedom, while being so willing to take away the freedom of another. Yes, violent criminals should be incarcerated. As should people who commit any crime where there is a victim (burglary, fraud, etc.) but things like three strikes laws and mandatory minimums aren't warranted for nonviolent offenders.

We value freedom heavily, with the exception for those who violate it. We treat freedom like an expensive vase. It's something to be highly prized and protected, but if you break your own vase, you're SOL.

Good analogy. With that being said, can you not agree that people get thrown into prison for a lot of relatively trivial stuff? As I said, so long as there is no victim, there should be no crime.

I agree. That being said, that's still no reason for the rates to be as high as they are.

Actually, it's a very logical reason for rates to be as high as they are. Let's also not forget the American bravado here. America has always been a "me first" nation. Sure, we're willing to help others when it counts, but overall, we view life and its goals as "what can I do to make MY life better?" This leads to a great deal of people who are in life for themselves and their community only. They don't really care if they hurt or inconvenience others so long as they get what they want. Europe has this a bit, but Europe is still far more community oriented than the US. In Europe people are far more likely to think of the while over the individual. This attitude is rarely criminal too. Just spend a day noticing it. You'll see it on the roads, in restaurants, and everywhere else. Americans who are asserting themselves over others, at the expense of others, and making a show of superiority while they're at it. Hell, just watch those Wendy's commercials and you'll see it.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I didn't directly place blame in the prisons. I think a lot of it has to do with crony capitalism. There are some very rich and powerful people high-up in the private prison industry. Naturally they're going to have the palms of the politicians greased, to some degree or another. Look at the imprisonment statistics of countries which don't allow for-profit incarceration. Significantly lower rates (though that's anywhere), and more lax sentencing laws than here in the US.

Like I pointed out before, most of the harsh sentencing rules came from initiatives, not from legislative action. We the People made them, not our elected representatives.

Then there's the matter of the near free labor. I read an article a while back on the massive availability of cheap labor from prisons. I mean, think about it, you pay these people cents a day to do all of this work, think about (again) the profit margins which come about as a result of this.

I have heard the claim of the "for profit" "prison industrial complex" menace, but not once have I seen any proof of it causing higher sentences.

Well damn. Looks like you've got me. I'll come back after reading up on a few more studies and we can go at it again. While I can admit being bested (today), I still think it's bull that we put more people in prison every year than any other nation, both overall, and per capita. I have no issue with violent offenders being placed in prison. But I feel as though there's a better alternative to incarceration for people who haven't hurt anyone else.

[Ericho]

I thought China had more prisoners or at least it used to. I am aware of most of these statistics and it is pretty depressing. You'd think a country like North Korea would have more prisoners with the small amount of freedom they have. Marijuana should be legalized.

[Camarohusky]

At 9/28/13 01:09 AM, AmateurPsychonaut wrote: I suppose this is a fact, but what way can we know the true extent of police corruption in various other countries?

The thing is that we can't. Because of this, it is not useful at all to compare the numbers.

I agree that they're not the cause of our social issues, but they do, in fact, play a part in the massive rates of incarceration we see today.

It's a result of our society's tough stance on crime.

Good analogy. With that being said, can you not agree that people get thrown into prison for a lot of relatively trivial stuff? As I said, so long as there is no victim, there should be no crime.

That's a personal view though. Many people, myself included, believe that so called "victimless crimes" are not actually victimless at all. Not only do most of these crimes actually have others aside from the actor who get hurt, they create major problems in society that we do not want, and do not want to have to clean up.

Well damn. Looks like you've got me. I'll come back after reading up on a few more studies and we can go at it again. While I can admit being bested (today), I still think it's bull that we put more people in prison every year than any other nation, both overall, and per capita. I have no issue with violent offenders being placed in prison. But I feel as though there's a better alternative to incarceration for people who haven't hurt anyone else.

I think the issue here is a look at the forest and missing the trees. We can say "there are too many prisoners!" but that alone does not create reason enough to wholesale stop charging crimes and so on. Each crime must be evaluated for its specific merit and should not be changed based on a only semi-related end issue.

This is coming from a prosecutor mind though. During law school I worked as a prosecutor and when my disease allows me to work I will be seeking out prosecutor positions.

[SmilezRoyale]

At 9/27/13 11:21 PM, Camarohusky wrote: No this is NOT a case of the private prison industrial complex (keyword for people who want to blame "the man" but have no logial way to blame him) going crazy. This is a case of a developed country (Russia and China are NOT developed) that has serious social problems both leading to first time offenses and to recidivism.

Do you have any data on what proportion of people are in jail for X and Y crime? Or any theories as to why the incarceration rate spiked *specifically* in the 1980s

[lapis]

At 9/27/13 08:33 PM, AmateurPsychonaut wrote: Meanwhile, the Dutch are having to close 8 prisons due to a lack of crime.

*Due to a lack of criminals actually being caught. Just in the news today (use Google Translate if you want to read it): 3.1% of all people in the Netherlands were a victim of burglary in 2011 alone, up from 2.5% in 2008, which amounts to a rise of 100,000 annual victims in three years.

[BumFodder]

At 9/29/13 05:12 AM, lapis wrote: *Due to a lack of criminals actually being caught. Just in the news today (use Google Translate if you want to read it): 3.1% of all people in the Netherlands were a victim of burglary in 2011 alone, up from 2.5% in 2008, which amounts to a rise of 100,000 annual victims in three years.

I really doubt that, newspapers are really bad sources in general.

[lapis]

At 9/29/13 05:29 AM, BumFodder wrote:

At 9/29/13 05:12 AM, lapis wrote: *Due to a lack of criminals actually being caught. Just in the news today (use Google Translate if you want to read it): 3.1% of all people in the Netherlands were a victim of burglary in 2011 alone, up from 2.5% in 2008, which amounts to a rise of 100,000 annual victims in three years.

I really doubt that, newspapers are really bad sources in general.

They're quoting a report from the Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek, which is the government agency in charge of gathering statistical data about the Netherlands.

[randomperson23]

I'm surprised that US doesn't have more prisoners.

[Angry-Hatter]

At 9/28/13 12:44 AM, Camarohusky wrote: I have heard the claim of the "for profit" "prison industrial complex" menace, but not once have I seen any proof of it causing higher sentences.

How the private prison industry is corrupting our democracy and promoting mass incarceration

Summary of key findings

* While the overall prison population has grown dramatically over the last two decades, the growth of inmates being detained in private, for-profit prisons has skyrocketed. Between 1990 and 2009, the total number of inmates in federal and state prisons doubled, while private prisons saw its business explode—the private prison population in 2009 was 17 times larger than 2 decades earlier.

* The more people behind bars, and the longer they stay there, the more money that private, for-profit prison companies make. Over the last decade, the two largest for-profit prison companies (Corrections Corporation of America and GEO Group) saw their annual revenue double as a result of the spike in incarcerations, making them both billion-dollar companies.

* The explosion in the number of inmates and corresponding growth in revenue for private prisons is no accident. It has been part of an intentional effort by the private prison industry to shape public policy to push more people into prison and keep them there longer. The industry has achieved this through the classic three-pronged strategy of contributing to political campaigns, lobbying, and gaining access to policymakers through close relationships.

* Through involvement in the leadership of ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council), private prison companies have played a key role in lobbying for and passing harsher sentencing for non-violent offenses including three-strike laws, mandatory sentencing, and truth-in-sentencing. They are also behind the recent spate of anti-immigrant state laws that are putting more and more immigrants behind bars—the new profit center for the prison industrial complex.

* Private prison companies employ legions of lobbyists to push for policies that support their bottom line. Since 2001, CCA, GEO Group and Cornell Companies have spent over $22 million lobbying Congress. Recent lobbying by CCA and GEO Group includes efforts to increase funding to Immigration Customs and Enforcement (ICE). Since 2003, CCA has employed 204 of lobbyists in 32 states, and GEO Group has employed by 79 lobbyists in 17 states.

* Private prison companies also influence policymaking by strategically supporting political campaigns. At the federal level, the political action committees and executives of private prison companies have given at least $3.3 million to political parties, candidates, and their political action committees since 2001. The private prison industry has given more than $7.3 million to state candidates and political parties since 2001, including $1.9 million in 2010, the highest amount in the past decade.

Chew on that one for a bit.

[SinCOMIXXX]

The War on Drugs is the biggest load of legislative BULLSHIT, especially against minor drugs like marijuana, that this country has ever seen. And yeah, a lot of people have made the point that in layman's terms: High population + High dependency/Glorification of Criminal Lifestyle + Well-functioning legal system = Shit Load of Prisoners. Still, it's completely bullshit. This country has a huge stigma on things that should not even be illegal, and yet are. What we should all be fighting for is the legalization of marijuana.

[NewgroundsMike]

At 10/5/13 06:39 PM, Angry-Hatter wrote:

At 9/28/13 12:44 AM, Camarohusky wrote: I have heard the claim of the "for profit" "prison industrial complex" menace, but not once have I seen any proof of it causing higher sentences.

How the private prison industry is corrupting our democracy and promoting mass incarceration

What the hell did I just read. That country is even more fucked up than I would ever have dared to imagine. Will you guys never get it? Some things are simply better off if they're left completely in the hands of the state, like police, schools, health care (wink wink) and also prisons. That's still far away from communism. USA for most insane country in the world.

[Fim]

At 9/27/13 11:21 PM, Camarohusky wrote: No this is NOT a case of the private prison industrial complex (keyword for people who want to blame "the man" but have no logial way to blame him) going crazy.

Do you really think there's no merit at all in the Prison Industrial Complex theory? It seems like a pretty watertight argument to me, I wouldn't go as far to say that they have reinvented slavery like some people have argued, but I think there's something there Ie: as soon as it became profitable to incarcerate criminals the prison population in the US skyrocketed. for people who don't know...
What is interesting is that while the prison population has tripled since the introduction of the privatisation of prisons, crime has actually been decreasing. I don't think you can say that either that Americans have suddenly become worse citizens, or that the social issues have got worse since the 1980s.

So ridiculous mandatory-minimums, three strikes laws, and sentencing disparities play no role in this whatsoever?
No, they're a result of our social issues, not the cause.

I'm sorry, you simply can not deny that the three strikes law is a factor in this, when you've got someone serving 25 years for stealing socks, it's a bullshit law with the same logic of a baseball game and it really needs some reform. As somebody has already mentioned, the private prisons are donating millions to help push laws that will increase the number of incarcerated, and therefore increase profits.

You and me usually see eye to eye on most issues Camarohusky, so I'm just interested to know what your reasoning is behind this?

[All-American-Badass]

I hate mandatory minimum sentencing it's on par with zero-tolerance policies that most schools likely use. It doesn't matter if you have several grams or 8 oz. of cocaine on your person you're gonna get 10 years in prison if you get caught with it, even though the lesser amount ain't gonna do shit. And even though Eric Holder has done a deplorable job as Attorney General he's doing something right for once in making sure someone with barely any drugs on them don't get excessive sentencing. If we wanna stop jailing people for years for petty stuff like this this is a good place to start.

[Camarohusky]

At 10/6/13 10:52 AM, Fim wrote: Do you really think there's no merit at all in the Prison Industrial Complex theory? It seems like a pretty watertight argument to me,

It's as watertight as saying "well, more black people commit crime, therefore being black is a strong factor in committing crimes." It's a 100% hindsight correlation argument with absolutely no proof of the cause. It also completely ignore the fact that crime spiked heavily in the 1970s and 1980s leading to a big ripple of inmates who if not released quickly would cause the numbers to double. Let's also not forget an ACTUAL cause. In the late 1980s early 1990s there were numerous pushes from the people in reaction to that spike of crime to set extremely tough sentences. Not the prison industrial boogeyman didn't do this. The people did via initiatives.

The correlation that the private prison population has skyrocketed is easily tied to the fact that states have been starkly slashing their prison budgets and needed to turn elsewhere to house the convicts they already had as well as the incoming stream that was expected.

Is it possible or even likely that some of the issue is caused by the privatization of prisons (FYI, how a rational non-idiot refers to the "prison industrial complex")? Yeah. But to blame it solely on that or even largely on that is just plain lazy.

What is interesting is that while the prison population has tripled since the introduction of the privatisation of prisons, crime has actually been decreasing. I don't think you can say that either that Americans have suddenly become worse citizens, or that the social issues have got worse since the 1980s.

First off prison sentences can be very long. So the prison population doesn't always shrink as fast as some may like, especially when you have a boom of crime and then a crackdown leading a huge bubble in the influx. Second, the US population has grown by 35% since 1980. Combine the long sentences with the high crime in the 70s and 80, with the populist led crackdown of the 90s, with the increase of the total population skewing the relative crime numbers and that makes for a stark increase in prison population, that unlike the prison boogeyman complex actually has causation expressly shown in it, not strongly (ala truthers in 9/11) implied but nowhere to be found.

I'm sorry, you simply can not deny that the three strikes law is a factor in this, when you've got someone serving 25 years for stealing socks, it's a bullshit law with the same logic of a baseball game and it really needs some reform.

There's more to that idea in a later post. I said that the three strikes laws, which were largely pushed by initiatives from the people, were a RESPONSE to the social issue of crime. They were a response to the high crime of the 70s and 80s. They are a result of the unique US social issues involving and creating crime, not just an independent factor that made sentences worse. It is part of a tapestry of realted actions and reaction with regard to the crime wave of the 70s and 80s.

As somebody has already mentioned, the private prisons are donating millions to help push laws that will increase the number of incarcerated, and therefore increase profits.

You really think 3.3 million dollars over two decades in a big deal of money? HA! First off, Federal donations do about dick to change state law, where the vast supermajority of US prisoners come from. Second 3.3 million dollars at one time is a medium sized donation, but over 20 years or so? That's a pittance. Barely enough to nudge ONE official to their side if that.

You and me usually see eye to eye on most issues Camarohusky, so I'm just interested to know what your reasoning is behind this?

By reasoning is that I am no fan of bogeyman theories. They take Occam's Razor and throw it out the window for wild speculation and correlation based causation. "It's not the perfect storm of social factors caused by a 20 year spike in crime combined with a strong reaction, but a CONSPIRACY by the MAN!!!1!"

At 10/6/13 11:45 AM, All-American-Badass wrote: I hate mandatory minimum sentencing it's on par with zero-tolerance policies that most schools likely use.

What about the rapist in Montana who got 30 days? In my state he would have gotten a minimum of around 20 years. How is that wrong?

It doesn't matter if you have several grams or 8 oz. of cocaine on your person you're gonna get 10 years in prison if you get caught with it, even though the lesser amount ain't gonna do shit.

Most states I know of either never had minimums for drug crimes or have since repealed them.

And even though Eric Holder has done a deplorable job as Attorney General he's doing something right for once in making sure someone with barely any drugs on them don't get excessive sentencing. If we wanna stop jailing people for years for petty stuff like this this is a good place to start.

Federal Drug offenses (and Federal offenses in general) make up a VERY small proportion of all prosecuted crimes in the US. Even with Holder laying off a bit on drug crimes, it means nothing unless the states do the same.

I do agree though. If you're looking to lower the total amount of prisoners, start from the bottom of the crime scale, not the top.

[All-American-Badass]

At 10/6/13 12:34 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 10/6/13 11:45 AM, All-American-Badass wrote: I hate mandatory minimum sentencing it's on par with zero-tolerance policies that most schools likely use.

What about the rapist in Montana who got 30 days? In my state he would have gotten a minimum of around 20 years. How is that wrong?

Well for crimes like rape, yes we should be harsh but even then we should have some discretion in sentencing based on the situation of the offense, albeit in most cases there won't be that much but maybe enough to vary a few years. But again i'm advocating not going to prison for 10 years for petty crimes, I want those mandatory minimums abolished

[Fim]

At 10/6/13 12:34 PM, Camarohusky wrote: It's as watertight as saying "well, more black people commit crime, therefore being black is a strong factor in committing crimes."

I don't think that's the same comparison as what I'm making.

The correlation that the private prison population has skyrocketed is easily tied to the fact that states have been starkly slashing their prison budgets and needed to turn elsewhere to house the convicts they already had as well as the incoming stream that was expected.

I honestly don't see how slashing prison budgets could affect the sentencing of criminals. Criminals are getting harsher and longer sentences now than they did before, sentences for the same crimes have been growing by 36% within 2 decades. As Angry-Hatter has already said, the private prisons have had a hand in " three-pronged strategy of contributing to political campaigns, lobbying, and gaining access to policymakers through close relationships."

Is it possible or even likely that some of the issue is caused by the privatization of prisons (FYI, how a rational non-idiot refers to the "prison industrial complex")? Yeah. But to blame it solely on that or even largely on that is just plain lazy.

I'll admit that the PIC isn't the sole contributor to this problem, but it's not worth ruling out completely. I actually agree with prisoners not being a drain on public revenue, but I draw the line at private companies trying to maximize profits by treating criminals unfairly to the extent in America at the moment.

the US population has grown by 35% since 1980.

It doesn't matter if the population grows because these figures are based on the prison population per capita. There are more people in prison now than in 1980 sure, but the per the prison population was about 1.5% in 1980 and is now at almost 5%.

You really think 3.3 million dollars over two decades in a big deal of money? HA! First off,

As Angry-Hatter has already stated, it's actually $22 million since 2001. Which is enough klout to hold some sway if you ask me. It's definitely not worth ignoring. The private prisons are making a killing the way things are so you have to ask what their intentions are by donating that amount of money towards schemes like the 3 strikes.

As I've said, crime is down year on year, yet lengths of sentences are up, prison populations are up, profits from prisons are up. There are people making money off this paradigm, and the nature of all business is to maximize profits, so its not much of a leap to assume that's exactly what's happening here. There is even evidence of private prisons hiring ex-government officials as consultants who have inside connections to current policy makers, known as the “revolving door” between the public and private sectors.'

[Fim]

per the prison population was about 1.5% in 1980 and is now at almost 5%.

Wooops, I meant 0.15% and 0.5% not 1.5/5% >_<

pic unrelated

[Camarohusky]

Another thing, aside from the ends create the means correlation causation, about the prison industrial complex idea I don't like is that it tacitly assumes the tail wags the dog.

Prosecutors, defense attorneys, and judges determine the exact specifications as to how long criminals are sentenced. Most states now have gone to a sliding scale based on severity of crime and criminal history, at which the judge makes a determination of the sentence based on the case at hand. Other than mandatory minimums and deciding what is a crime and what is not, politicians have almost no bearing on how sentences actually work out.

The whole prison industrial complex argument reeks, to me, of a hobbled together attempt to find an easy culprit to a difficult societal problem. If you can't solve the real problem, blame the private industry.

[Earfetish]

Corrupt judges have been found to get backhanders and bribes from private prison owners, in order for the judge to incarcerate potsmokers and shoplifters so the prison owner can take more taxpayer money.

wtg America

You do incarcerate minor offenders too regularly, I know we're a light touch in the UK but c'mon, it's obvious something has gone badly wrong with your prison system when like 1% of the populace is in jail at any one time

[Earfetish]

And what societal problems does the US have that the UK does not have? A higher crime rate? I don't think so. Tensions between races? You and me both, buddy. Yet we have five times fewer prisoners than you have. Five times. Are your societal problems really five times worse?

It's frightening to think how many people go to jail in the US. I am quite certain that, had my first 25 years been in the US rather than the UK, I would've ended up in jail, probably for smoking weed (I've been in the back of the police van once). In the UK I have potential, my minor crimes do not significantly alter my life potential. In the US I'd likely be an ex-con by now.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

yeah private prisons aren't the problem nor will they ever be. you know how much paperwork and capital its takes to get a private prison going? try the tens of MILLIONS, not to mention they are put under a microscope for any sort of violations by federal inspections and investigations if anything goes wrong.

[Fim]

At 10/7/13 07:52 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: yeah private prisons aren't the problem nor will they ever be. you know how much paperwork and capital its takes to get a private prison going? try the tens of MILLIONS, not to mention they are put under a microscope for any sort of violations by federal inspections and investigations if anything goes wrong.

It's pretty obvious that these private prisons are a problem tony, when they actively try and influence policy which will make them even richer exploiting a section of society nobody really cares about. I'm not against prisoners paying for their detention by any means, but the amount of it's own people that the fabled land of the free slam up is shameful.

As people have already mentioned, it doesn't matter if it costs them millions to set up a prison, these companies in this sector are making billions.

[Psycho666]

Today i just learned that "life in prison" can mean as little as 25 years in other countries. How many years does life in prison imply in the USA?

[Earfetish]

At 10/7/13 08:54 PM, Psycho666 wrote: Today i just learned that "life in prison" can mean as little as 25 years in other countries. How many years does life in prison imply in the USA?

It means 'up to' 25 years in the UK, you might be out on 'life license' after just 10 years in the UK

In Norway the max sentence is 11 years with 10 years 'supervision' outside of jail, although they might try to stop Brievik getting out (they also might not)

[Camarohusky]

At 10/7/13 08:54 PM, Psycho666 wrote: Today i just learned that "life in prison" can mean as little as 25 years in other countries. How many years does life in prison imply in the USA?

It means two things.

Life without possibility of parole is incarceration for the rest of one's life.
Life with possibility of parole is incarceration for life, with the chance of being paroled after a period, usually after 25 years.

Both are subject to commuting and pardoning.

[Camarohusky]

At 10/7/13 07:24 AM, Earfetish wrote: Corrupt judges have been found to get backhanders and bribes from private prison owners, in order for the judge to incarcerate potsmokers and shoplifters so the prison owner can take more taxpayer money.

Are you insinuating that either these few corrupt judges have incarcerated so many people, or that a majority of judges are corrupt?

You do incarcerate minor offenders too regularly, I know we're a light touch in the UK but c'mon, it's obvious something has gone badly wrong with your prison system when like 1% of the populace is in jail at any one time

No, it means something has gone wrong with society, not the prison system. Again the tail does not wag the dog.