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Government Shutdown 2013

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MonochromeMonitor
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Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 01:12 PM Reply

You know the drill. Will our government shutdown on the 30th because the House refuses to fund the government unless Obamacare is defunded? Will they negotiate? The White House has sworn to veto their measure. Many republican representatives claim that the 95-96 shutdown was good for the GOP, and that Americans will see a refusal to negotiate as honorable—sticking to their core values. However, I believe Clinton's flexibility in dealing with the house was what allowed him to win second term by a landslide. Your thoughts?

Government Shutdown: "a situation in which the government stops providing all but "essential" services."


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Korriken
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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 05:11 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 01:12 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: You know the drill. Will our government shutdown on the 30th because the House refuses to fund the government unless Obamacare is defunded?

It'll work out the same way the last one worked out. Talking heads come up, begin slinging the race card around and saying that it's all the GOP's fault and the unwashed masses begin foaming at the mouth.

I've never liked how the GOP has dealt with Obamacare, it reminds me of playing with people in a team based pvp game with a random group. People begin doing hideously stupid things and end up losing because of it.

if the GOP wants to kill Obamacare, the best thing to do would be to let it be implemented, and when people feel the financial weight of the bill on their backs, they won't like it anymore.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

24901miles
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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 05:19 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 05:11 PM, Korriken wrote: if the GOP wants to kill Obamacare, the best thing to do would be to let it be implemented, and when people feel the financial weight of the bill on their backs, they won't like it anymore.

I would think they've already thought that through, and don't want it to be implemented because they know it won't increase the financial burden on your average Joe McSometimes-Votes.


[ You aren't fluent ] .:∴…

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 05:43 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 05:11 PM, Korriken wrote:
It'll work out the same way the last one worked out. Talking heads come up, begin slinging the race card around and saying that it's all the GOP's fault and the unwashed masses begin foaming at the mouth.

I've never liked how the GOP has dealt with Obamacare, it reminds me of playing with people in a team based pvp game with a random group. People begin doing hideously stupid things and end up losing because of it.

if the GOP wants to kill Obamacare, the best thing to do would be to let it be implemented, and when people feel the financial weight of the bill on their backs, they won't like it anymore.

problem with that is most of these sorts of ideas are likely to remain in place for a very long time, no matter how unpopular they get. That's because as soon as the next president fails to repeal it, Obamacare will just end up being one of those issues that shows up in the editorial every so often and nothing more, like Marijuana.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 06:37 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 01:12 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: You know the drill. Will our government shutdown on the 30th because the House refuses to fund the government unless Obamacare is defunded? Will they negotiate? The White House has sworn to veto their measure. Many republican representatives claim that the 95-96 shutdown was good for the GOP, and that Americans will see a refusal to negotiate as honorable—sticking to their core values. However, I believe Clinton's flexibility in dealing with the house was what allowed him to win second term by a landslide. Your thoughts?

Government Shutdown: "a situation in which the government stops providing all but "essential" services."

Um no, in fact that is a total revision of history to say that. When the government shutdown because of the Republicans unwillingness to compromise with the President, the Public largely blamed the Republicans rather than Clinton forcing the Republicans to work with Clinton. Clinton wasn't as much of a good politician in this case as much as the Republicans were terrible ones.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 06:39 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 05:11 PM, Korriken wrote:

:the race card

What does Obama being black have anything to do with anything at all?

around and saying that it's all the GOP's fault

Why wouldn't it be? The GOP's current wish is to defund and repeal Obamacare without any sort of a realistic replacement plan, removing health insurance coverage from millions of people. If they don't get this, they are threatening to shut down the federal government entirely, resulting in a technical default on the debt, wreaking unprecedented chaos in the world financial markets. This on top of their quintessential FYGM plan to remove $39 billion in food stamps from more millions. The modern Republican party is currently eating itself alive. The Heritage Foundation has spent more money on ads this year attacking Republicans than Democrats. The Tea Party wants to oust Boehner and Lindsey Fucking Graham will likely be primaried. I don't think anyone understands just how broken the modern Republican party is. You cannot compromise and bargain with another party if your own party is a snake eating its own tail. How is the GOP going to compromise with the Democrats? How will it not be their fault?

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:03 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 06:39 PM, Feoric wrote:
At 9/22/13 05:11 PM, Korriken wrote: the race card
What does Obama being black have anything to do with anything at all?

Please tell me that's a joke and you're not seriously asking that. in the last 5 years, I've never seen the race card thrown around so many times.

How will it not be their fault?

Never said it wasn't. I'm just predicting what we'll be seeing in the next few weeks. Once the republican party sinks, something else will take their place. No party will ever run unopposed, unless the media bends over backwards to black out all third parties, much in the way they do now.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:36 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 05:11 PM, Korriken wrote: It'll work out the same way the last one worked out. Talking heads come up, begin slinging the race card around and saying that it's all the GOP's fault and the unwashed masses begin foaming at the mouth.

No need to make it racial, it's just moronic now. They've tried to repeal it 40 times, they've failed 40 times, now they're trying to hold the government hostage to defund it? This is moronic clown shoes policy at it's best and it's the reason these jokers have a terrible approval rating. The GOP eats the blame because, well, their the majority of people pushing for this to happen. It's political suicide.

I've never liked how the GOP has dealt with Obamacare, it reminds me of playing with people in a team based pvp game with a random group. People begin doing hideously stupid things and end up losing because of it.

Absolutely.

if the GOP wants to kill Obamacare, the best thing to do would be to let it be implemented, and when people feel the financial weight of the bill on their backs, they won't like it anymore.

Or, you know, it'll actually work and taxpayers will find that with everyone insured and they no longer have to bear the weight of raised healthcare costs forced upon them as justification for those who need care but can't afford insurance the GOP and Obamacare opponents who have spent so much time trying to kill a law (and it is law don't forget) that actually helps the average person, but pisses off their corporate donors. You do know that in places that have tried to make it work, it's working right? That's what the GOP and it's supporters are really afraid of in all this: That it'll work and then lead to more heartbreak at the polls for them.


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MonochromeMonitor
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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:46 PM Reply

Um no, in fact that is a total revision of history to say that. When the government shutdown because of the Republicans unwillingness to compromise with the President, the Public largely blamed the Republicans rather than Clinton forcing the Republicans to work with Clinton. Clinton wasn't as much of a good politician in this case as much as the Republicans were terrible ones.

That's what I meant. I meant that everyone blamed them for the shutdown, hence it was bad for the GOP. I was saying that Clinton's flexibility, not forcing, but him moving right to negotiate, allowed him to win term 2 so easily.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:49 PM Reply

Or, you know, it'll actually work and taxpayers will find that with everyone insured and they no longer have to bear the weight of raised healthcare costs forced upon them as justification for those who need care but can't afford insurance the GOP and Obamacare opponents who have spent so much time trying to kill a law (and it is law don't forget) that actually helps the average person, but pisses off their corporate donors. You do know that in places that have tried to make it work, it's working right? That's what the GOP and it's supporters are really afraid of in all this: That it'll work and then lead to more heartbreak at the polls for them.

Like Colbert says, the worst thing for the GOP will be when Obamacare gets implemented and people actually LIKE it.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 12:09 AM Reply

Let me say some things.

1. Obamacare is crap, but holding America hostage to try and get rid of it is WORSE. What the TP (Tea Party, but I abbreviated it for a reason) Republicans are doing amounts to political terrorism. It is a form of Extortion, which is a felony in all 50 states. These TP guys don't belong in Congress, they belong in jail!

2. Boehner is a coward. He doesn't deserve to be in Congress, let alone the Speaker of the House. So what if the TP guys threatened to take away his speakership. It's better to be on the bright side of a lose-lose situation. Caving in only reinforces the TP people to further their use of political terrorism.

3. NEVER put your principles before the American people!

I don't like what the Democrats are implementing, but the TP Republicans are shooting us in the dick. I would rather side with the Dems than shoot a guy in the dick.


Feel no mercy for me. It will only cause you to suffer as well.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 12:14 AM Reply

At 9/22/13 09:03 PM, Korriken wrote: Please tell me that's a joke and you're not seriously asking that. in the last 5 years, I've never seen the race card thrown around so many times.

I find it humorous and suspicious that the first people to claim "the race card" are the right wing, especially in situations where there's no reason to say such a thing.

Never said it wasn't. I'm just predicting what we'll be seeing in the next few weeks. Once the republican party sinks, something else will take their place. No party will ever run unopposed, unless the media bends over backwards to black out all third parties, much in the way they do now.

The media isn't monolithic. This isn't the first time you've been told this.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 12:19 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 12:14 AM, Feoric wrote:
I find it humorous and suspicious that the first people to claim "the race card" are the right wing, especially in situations where there's no reason to say such a thing.

Say what you will, but unless you've been living under a rock, you've seen the race card being thrown around quite often. Give it a couple of days, it'll show up as the shutdown day gets close. it got tossed around last time it happened, and it'll happen again.

The media isn't monolithic. This isn't the first time you've been told this.

no, there are a couple of dissenters, but the bulk of news corporations sway to the left, some more than others. There is a reason why Fox News is the only news corporation that the left constantly denigrates. It's because it's the one tv based news corporation that doesn't sway left. It's also why it's the one news corporation that Obama singled out for derision, even going so far as to call it illegitimate.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Feoric
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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 12:51 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 12:19 PM, Korriken wrote: Say what you will, but unless you've been living under a rock, you've seen the race card being thrown around quite often.

I sure have.

no, there are a couple of dissenters, but the bulk of news corporations sway to the left, some more than others. There is a reason why Fox News is the only news corporation that the left constantly denigrates. It's because it's the one tv based news corporation that doesn't sway left. It's also why it's the one news corporation that Obama singled out for derision, even going so far as to call it illegitimate.

I really love this, it perfectly encapsulates the right's strict doctrine to follow the party line. If you're not agreeing 100% with the party rhetoric then you're a RINO/liberal. That's why so many on the right like you honestly believe there is an intentional liberal bias in The Media™ and that conservatives are actively being undermined by the liberal agenda. There is absolutely no consideration at all that the GOP is chock full of lunatics who intentionally tell half truths and spread misinformation or outright lies. Ironically it's this same philosophy which is currently destroying the GOP right now, and it's hilarious to watch. No True Scotsman and all that. 8 years of failed rhetoric is blowing up right in your face. The good news is that it's becoming transparent and apparent to everyone else without an R next to their name.

MonochromeMonitor
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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 01:22 PM Reply

The bigger picture is the looming threat of government default. Will a compromise to raise the debt limit be reached if the House doesn't successfully defund Obamacare? The House's original criteria for raising the ceiling were:

—Long term debt ceiling increase (allows Treasury to borrow for the rest of Obama's term): privatize Medicare and/or social security.

—Medium term debt ceiling increase (allows Treasury to borrow until sometime in 2015): Cut food stamps, tinker with chained CPI, tax reform, agree to enact block-grant Medicaid or a large raise in the retirement age.

—Short term debt ceiling increase (postpones default until sometime in the first half of 2014): Means testing of social security, a small raise in the retirement age or ending agricultural subsidies.

I agree with an earlier poster about the TP representatives holding the government hostage. No matter your opinion on Obamacare (in fact, 52% of Americans are against it), shutting down the government to defund it is insane (73% of Americans are against it).

Conservatives and tea party activists insist that Republicans will be rewarded for stopping Obamacare by any means necessary. It seems 95-96 is in their distant memory. If anything good comes out of this, no one will reelect the Tea Party reps in 2014.

What do you think the odds of a default are? I believe a shutdown is highly likely, but that default will just be avoided as it was in 2011. This doesn't address the source of the problem and we will soon surpass whatever new limit is decided upon.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 01:26 PM Reply

No True Scotsman and all that. 8 years of failed rhetoric is blowing up right in your face. The good news is that it's becoming transparent and apparent to everyone else without an R next to their name.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Government Shutdown 2013


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 01:43 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 01:22 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: privatize Medicare and/or social security.
Cut food stamps, tinker with chained CPI, tax reform, agree to enact block-grant Medicaid or a large raise in the retirement age.
Means testing of social security, a small raise in the retirement age or ending agricultural subsidies.

In other words, the GOP has openly stated "Fuck the poor, or we'll fuck everyone."

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 01:48 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 01:22 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: The bigger picture is the looming threat of government default. Will a compromise to raise the debt limit be reached if the House doesn't successfully defund Obamacare?

The issue isn't in the House. They already passed it. The issue is what's going to happen in the Senate. I cannot tell you what will happen. It's like blowing up a balloon and pinching the bottom so the air doesn't come out then letting go: I can't tell you the balloon's trajectory or where it will wind up. This analogy is apt, because both ted Cruz and Mike Lee are full of hot air and are unpredictable with their insanity. Obama will veto any bill that defunds or repeals the ACA. That much is certain. Senate democrats only need 60 votes for cloture, where Reid will add funding for Obamacare (which only needs a simple majority to be added, or 51 guaranteed votes). The 60 votes isn't certain, since it requires six Republican defectors. I'm sure there are at least six sane Republicans in the Senate, but the term is rapidly becoming an oxymoron.

What do you think the odds of a default are? I believe a shutdown is highly likely, but that default will just be avoided as it was in 2011. This doesn't address the source of the problem and we will soon surpass whatever new limit is decided upon.

A default cannot happen. Obama will invoke the 18th amendment if it ever came to that.

At 9/23/13 01:26 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Yes, this is a common tactic used by conservatives, primarily the Cruz-led Tea Party caucus. Here's a brilliant example:

"I think next week is a time for party unity," he said on Fox News Sunday. "In my view, Senate Republicans should stand united to stop Harry Reid from changing the House bill and, in particular, from inserting the funding from Obamacare with 51 votes. That's going to be the fight procedurally whether he's able to use a straight party line vote, just Democrats, to put Obamacare back."

And what if six Republicans defect and let Reid move the bill? Then they're cowards who willingly cast votes for Obamacare, Cruz said.

"I'll tell you, any vote for cloture, any vote to allow Harry Reid to add funding for Obamacare with just a 51-vote threshold," he said, "is a vote for Obamacare. And I think Senate Republicans are going to stand side by side with Speaker Boehner and House Republicans listening to the people and stopping this train wreck that is Obamacare."

That's the messaging: if you don't take the US economy hostage and then shoot it in the head, you are a liberal who wants big government spending. See? Harry Reid isn't a real Republican. No true Republican would vote for evil socialism.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 01:56 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 12:51 PM, Feoric wrote:
I really love this, it perfectly encapsulates the right's strict doctrine to follow the party line. If you're not agreeing 100% with the party rhetoric then you're a RINO/liberal.
That's why so many on the right like you honestly believe there is an intentional liberal bias in The Media™ and that conservatives are actively being undermined by the liberal agenda.

good job killing that straw man, but I'm over here. Also, I'm not aligned with the republican party. Never have been. I'm a conservative/libertarian, not some dipshit republican. I cheer on their demise because that will lead to libertarians rising up and taking their place, assuming the obvious doesn't happen.

Also, Studies prove it. Thank you for playing.

There is absolutely no consideration at all that the GOP is chock full of lunatics who intentionally tell half truths and spread misinformation or outright lies.

Odd how politicians tells half truths and lies, but never on YOUR side.

Ironically it's this same philosophy which is currently destroying the GOP right now, and it's hilarious to watch. No True Scotsman and all that. 8 years of failed rhetoric is blowing up right in your face. The good news is that it's becoming transparent and apparent to everyone else without an R next to their name.

the boat sinks, they continue to play the fiddle. let them drown.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Feoric
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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 02:45 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 01:56 PM, Korriken wrote: good job killing that straw man, but I'm over here. Also, I'm not aligned with the republican party. Never have been. I'm a conservative/libertarian, not some dipshit republican.

Find where I called you a Republican, please. Actually find where I even said the word Republican once in that post.

I cheer on their demise because that will lead to libertarians rising up and taking their place

Libertarians will never hold a spot in mainstream American politics. Thank god.

Also, Studies prove it. Thank you for playing.

You're welcome:

"(1) Technocratic centrist to liberal organizations like Brookings and the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities tend to have more credentialed experts with peer-reviewed publications than their conservative counterparts. This may result in a greater number of citations by the press, which seeks out expert perspectives on the news, but not more citations by members of Congress, who generally seek out views that reinforce their own.

[...]

"(2) The Groseclose/Milyo methodology doesn't allow for differential rates of productivity in producing work of interest to the media or Congress between organizations. To the extent that a think tank is better at marketing itself to the press than Congress (or vice versa), it could skew the results. For instance, the Heritage Foundation is extremely close to conservative members of Congress and has an elaborate operation designed to put material into their hands. But the fact that these members end up citing Heritage more than the press does is not ipso facto proof that the media is liberal.

In fact, there are a number of stories you can tell about why a media/Congress discrepancy in think tank citation would not necessarily imply ideological bias on the part of members of the elite media (including those listed above) and if any of them are true, the argument as stated does not hold."

And:

"None of the outlets that reported on the study mentioned that the authors have previously received funding from the three premier conservative think tanks in the United States: the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research (AEI), The Heritage Foundation, and the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace. Groseclose was a Hoover Institution 2000-2001 national fellow; Milyo, according to his CV (pdf), received a $40,500 grant from AEI; and, according to The Philanthropy Roundtable, Groseclose and Milyo were named by Heritage as Salvatori fellows in 1997. In 1996, Groseclose and Milyo co-authored a piece for the right-wing magazine The American Spectator, titled "Lost Shepherd," criticizing the then-recently defeated member of Congress Karen Shepherd (D-UT) and defending her successor, Enid Greene (R-UT); when the piece was published, Greene was in the midst of a campaign contribution scandal and later agreed to pay a civil penalty after the Federal Election Commission found (pdf) that she violated campaign finance laws.

[...]

Groseclose and Milyo's discussion of the idea of bias assumes that if a reporter quotes a source, then the opinion expressed by that source is an accurate measure of the reporter's beliefs -- an assumption that most, if not all, reporters across the ideological spectrum would find utterly ridiculous. A Pentagon reporter must often quote Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld; however, the reporter's inclusion of a Rumsfeld quotation does not indicate that Rumsfeld's opinion mirrors the personal opinion of the reporter.

Upon seeing how their coding scheme categorized different groups, the authors might have reconsidered the wisdom of their operationalization of "bias." But apparently they did not. Their odd categorizations led to some startling conclusions, including the result stating that The Wall Street Journal has more "liberal bias" than any news outlet they surveyed. Although they are concerned only with the Journal's news pages and not its highly conservative editorial page, the Journal is respected on both the right and the left, and it would be shocking to hear even the most rabid right-winger assert that the Journal is America's most liberal news outlet."

This is quite a boring derail, and an unworthy one at that. I don't think too many people here need to read a mountain of text in order to understand that the oft-claimed media conspiracy against conservatives is pathetic and unsubstantiated. Your persecution complex is a metric of how far the right has shifted the past 2 decades. Not everyone is not as far to the right as you are. Of course everyone else seems liberal to you.

Odd how politicians tells half truths and lies, but never on YOUR side.

1) There are no American politicians in office who are on my "side." 2) The truth is not in the middle.

the boat sinks, they continue to play the fiddle. let them drown.

"Unforeseen Consequences."

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 03:39 PM Reply

The concept of a "media bias" is laughable in of itself. To claim that the entirety of our informational networks have a particular bias rather than that the viewers of one network have a bias is outrageous. Just look at Occam's razor. Is it more likely for everyone else to be biased, or for you to be?

I didn't mean to take sides, I have little opinion on Obamacare because I know little about the Affordable Care Act. However, it can be agreed upon by most people that holding the government hostage is not the way to defund it. The media bias and the race card issues were just too ridiculous and needed to be addressed.

The libertarian platform is quite different, in principle, than the GOP. The GOP favors order over freedom (such as NSA spying) and often supports big corporations and the rich, while libertarians (again in principle) support liberty over order and equality (ie, oppose any form of spying as well as equality measures like welfare). However, principles aside, the leaders of the party are objectively crazy.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 03:49 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 01:48 PM, Feoric wrote: The issue isn't in the House. They already passed it.

I know it passed in the house, that's what started this whole shutdown fiasco. What I meant when I said if the House doesn't successfully defund it, is that the House is still trying to get the Senate to defund it, ie if they get their way.

A default cannot happen. Obama will invoke the 18th amendment if it ever came to that.

Wait... I'm pretty sure the eighteenth was the Prohibition. Which one are you referring to?


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 03:53 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 01:48 PM, Feoric wrote:
A default cannot happen. Obama will invoke the 18th amendment if it ever came to that.

That doesn't make sense. How will invoking the Prohibition amendment, which was repealed by the 21st amendment, prevent a default?
Just being silly...the amendment to avert default is the 14th Amendment, not the 18th.

Anyway, I had thoughts about a system called Dual-Flex Sequestration (DFS).

The rules of DFS:

1. Sequestration-level spending will remain for discretionary spending (defense, Head Start, etc.), but the cuts will be flexible rather than across the board. Throw away the meat cleaver.

2. Mandatory spending will face 20% cuts each year over the next 10 years. 70 percent of mandatory spending currently goes to the big 3 entitlements (Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid). These entitlements are broken and in need of reform. This will force reform. These cuts would not take place immediately, but would take place, say, six months or up to a year after passage unless Congress can find a better alternative. Like the first rule, the cuts are flexible.

---------------------------

The main source of the debt is entitlement spending. It's going to get worse in the near future unless structural reforms are made. It may require some harsh and unpopular changes, but our current system cannot be sustained.

Obamacare is, in essence, an entitlement or entitlement expansion. It will be affected by DFS, and will likely need to be modified to meet the cuts. It could result in Obamacare being chipped at without the political hostage-taking.

What are your thoughts on my concept?


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 03:58 PM Reply

Ah, the Fourteenth. Brilliant, I was confused...

Great idea on spending. You're right that what we need is a multifaceted, approach to cuts, as opposed to making arbitrary cuts. But you should think of a name that doesn't sound like exercise. Americans hate that.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 04:19 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 03:53 PM, Th-e wrote: That doesn't make sense. How will invoking the Prohibition amendment, which was repealed by the 21st amendment, prevent a default?
Just being silly...the amendment to avert default is the 14th Amendment, not the 18th.

I am not known for proofreading my posts. Thank you.

Anyway, I had thoughts about a system called Dual-Flex Sequestration (DFS).

The rules of DFS:

1. Sequestration-level spending will remain for discretionary spending (defense, Head Start, etc.), but the cuts will be flexible rather than across the board. Throw away the meat cleaver.

The sequester was never meant to be flexible. That was the entire point. The point of the sequester was that it was a sword of Damocles hanging over the fragile economy. In theory it would be political suicide to let it drop, and there were enough sacred cows for each party such that there would be enough incentive to reach a deal. Well, it didn't work out that way. That being said, why stop at flexible cuts? This is obviously not happening, since this requires the GOP to compromise with Democrats. Why not just get rid of the sequester all together? Both have equal shots at happening: 0. Trying to adjust the sequester is a tacit admission of defeat. It is symbolic of how broken the political process is right now. The sequester was never supposed to happen. It doesn't matter how you adjust it, the game is already lost.

2. Mandatory spending will face 20% cuts each year over the next 10 years. 70 percent of mandatory spending currently goes to the big 3 entitlements (Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid). These entitlements are broken and in need of reform. This will force reform. These cuts would not take place immediately, but would take place, say, six months or up to a year after passage unless Congress can find a better alternative. Like the first rule, the cuts are flexible.

20% each year for 10 years is way way too steep. There would likely be a contraction in the economy. You're advocating shock therapy. This would be catastrophic. How you get the idea that starving the beast will force reform is beyond me. These programs aren't sentient. They're managed by elected politicians. Having elected politicians destroy an entitlement program is not the way to reform it.

The main source of the debt is entitlement spending.

Federal spending is not debt.

It's going to get worse in the near future unless structural reforms are made. It may require some harsh and unpopular changes, but our current system cannot be sustained.

Why not?

Obamacare is, in essence, an entitlement or entitlement expansion. It will be affected by DFS, and will likely need to be modified to meet the cuts. It could result in Obamacare being chipped at without the political hostage-taking.

What are your thoughts on my concept?

Sounds really awful, frankly.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 04:31 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 03:49 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: I know it passed in the house, that's what started this whole shutdown fiasco. What I meant when I said if the House doesn't successfully defund it, is that the House is still trying to get the Senate to defund it, ie if they get their way.

Well, it's not just House Republicans. It's the Tea Party caucus in general. "The House" is too broad of a term, because the House, while a GOP majority, is fractured. There's too much Republican infighting to treat them as a monolithic group.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 04:59 PM Reply

To be fair I'd argue that his DFS is much better than our current system.

The 20% cuts are far too drastic, though. Entitlements are not the cause of our debt. The government has been increasing its spending at a rate faster than revenues have been growing for decades. As this debt increases, so do the interest payments, contributing to the growing debt.

And sequestration—though in America's case was meant to never happen—actually just means automatic spending cuts. These cuts don't have to be impractical.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 05:20 PM Reply

At 9/23/13 01:48 PM, Feoric wrote: That's the messaging: if you don't take the US economy hostage and then shoot it in the head, you are a liberal who wants big government spending. See? Harry Reid isn't a real Republican. No true Republican would vote for evil socialism.

This is really really wrong. I meant to say "Harry Reid isn't a real American. No true Republican would vote for evil socialism." Harry Reid is, obviously, not a Republican.

At 9/23/13 04:59 PM, MonochromeMonitor wrote: To be fair I'd argue that his DFS is much better than our current system.

The 20% cuts are far too drastic, though. Entitlements are not the cause of our debt. The government has been increasing its spending at a rate faster than revenues have been growing for decades. As this debt increases, so do the interest payments, contributing to the growing debt.

Even at our current spending level, interest payments are projected to only be 7% of our total federal spending. It's not really an issue. The debt isn't an issue either. If we cut the defense and military budget while bringing in more revenue we would be fine. There is absolutely no reason to gut entitlement programs.

And sequestration—though in America's case was meant to never happen—actually just means automatic spending cuts. These cuts don't have to be impractical.

Cuts themselves do not have to be impractical, but the sequester by definition was meant to be impractical. Trying to make the sequester more practical defeats the entire point of what it was supposed to do.

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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 05:42 PM Reply

Cuts themselves do not have to be impractical, but the sequester by definition was meant to be impractical. Trying to make the sequester more practical defeats the entire point of what it was supposed to do.

Yes, our sequester was meant to be so devastating and arbitrary that they would HAVE to compromise. But sequestration is a broader term, similar to cuts with the distinction that they are introduced automatically.

I agree that the debt is less of a problem than it is made out to be. Yes, it had increased, but Obama has actually lowered the deficit (the increase in debt), though the overall debt has increased (and most forget that it tripled under Reagan). This is comparable to speed vs. acceleration, like how a ball sliding down a curved ramp will accelerate slower as it nears the bottom while still speeding up.

Ironically, on our egregious defence budget, in the event of a shutdown, members of the armed forces will take a serious hit to their pay—or not be paid at all.


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Response to Government Shutdown 2013 Sep. 23rd, 2013 @ 06:39 PM Reply

At 9/22/13 09:03 PM, Korriken wrote:
At 9/22/13 06:39 PM, Feoric wrote:
Please tell me that's a joke and you're not seriously asking that. in the last 5 years, I've never seen the race card thrown around so many times.

This I've always found hilarious, tell me when was the last time Obama played the "race card"? I have yet to have seen him say anything of the like yet every Conservative seems to act like he plays it every day.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
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