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Well Dr-Worm pretty much nailed what I was going to reply with.

Sonic is fine, it's our extremely diverse bitchy/NEVER satisfied/overly nastalgic fanbase that has the problem.

At 9/15/13 03:40 AM, Dr-Worm wrote:

At 9/15/13 12:46 AM, oobooglunk wrote: Have you never compared Sonic 1 to Super Mario Bros.? You wouldn't find pace-breaking block pyramids or speed-halting Hammer Bros. in Sonic, and you know it.

I think kmau means that Mario games are built around the player having impeccable control over Mario's movements, while Sonic games are more concerned with pure speed, making their controls much more loose and slippery.

Only in the more recent titles. From 1991 to 2000, this was absolutely not the case.

But I don't really get what you're trying to argue anyway. Super Mario Bros has higher aims than just shuttling the player along as fast as possible; any "speed-halting" obstacles or enemies are deliberate.

Think about this: Mario is inherently slow. The only thing that speeds up his gameplay is the B button. When I press it, however, I'm more likely to smack into a pace-breaker as mentioned above. Why not combine good gameplay AND speed to avoid this sluggish experience?

Why do you think the Mario games try to keep a light storyline? Mario, as a character, is boring to follow in a serious setting.

Yeah, no shit. Sonic games could stand to follow suit instead of embarrassing themselves by awkwardly trying to jam talking cartoon animals into a "serious setting."

I honestly think it worked in SA2, but that's debatable. Either way, Sonic became much, MUCH more light-hearted after 2010.

Heck, even the plot of a more story-driven Mario game like Paper Mario pales in comparison to the plot of a game like Sonic Adventure 2 or even Sonic Colors.

The Mario RPGs are funny, quirky and irreverent. The more "story-driven" Sonic games (if you can call them that) are dour and joyless (again, a wildly inappropriate tone for a game about a talking cartoon hedgehog), cobbled together from a bunch of warmed-over anime cliches, and stuffed full of shameless attempts to pander to a nerdy preteen's conception of cool.

Again, see the games post-2010, specifically Sonic Colors. Although the Wii version has some cringe-worthy comedy, both the DS and Wii versions of the game have the same storyline. In fact, Colors' storyline is much more irreverent and light-hearted than the Adventure games, even if it does have some slightly dark undertones. These, however, are incredibly subtle and only serve to intensify the storyline. For reference, Sonic Colors' plot was written by the same people who made Mad World and Happy Tree Friends. Although the latter was rather dark, Sonic Colors isn't. Neither is Generations, and neither is Lost World.

That's part of what's made Mario a much more enduring icon than Sonic. Mario never tries to be hip. While Sonic games have been engaging in increasingly desperate efforts to chase fads and fans, the people who make Mario games know that he's inherently goofy and dorky and they embrace it, because they're confident enough in the fundamentals to let the game stand on its own merits without shallow gimmicks.

And that's why we've gotten the same game over and over for the past seven years.

This is why, for example, Mario's "dark" counterpart is a fat greasy slob with a ridiculous zigzagging mustache, while Sonic's is a brooding emo douchebag straight out of terrible fan fiction.

Technically, Sonic has had multiple "dark counterparts".

-Metal Sonic is a cold, soul-less robot who learns to think for himself and betray his creator, which is fitting since Sonic is also a free spirit and since Sonic's arch-nemesis fights with an army of robots.

-Knuckles might not qualify entirely, but his character emphasizes strength over speed and blind trust over cocky rebelliousness. That's part of the reason why Sonic and Knuckles have fought so often: Not only does Knuckles want to see the best in Eggman, he also helps him in Knuckles' own best interests (see Sonic Adventure).

-As for Shadow, he wasn't "brooding and emo" until Shadow the Hedgehog. In my opinion, he should have stayed dead. Not only would the best side of his character have been preserved, it would have made his encounter in Generations that much more meaningful.

At 9/14/13 11:02 PM, Dr-Worm wrote: Really? I've always found him to be an annoying, Poochie-esque relic of '90s cartoon "x-treme" cheesiness.

I like his sarcastic smart-ass personality, but that is just me
In recent games though, I dont feel they have been doing him justice..... He comes off as annoying.
I think done right, Sonic is a fine character.

At 9/15/13 07:26 AM, II2none wrote: Sonic is fine, it's our extremely diverse bitchy/NEVER satisfied/overly nostalgic fanbase that has the problem.

Although the Sonic fanbase is a rabid and misguided one, SEGA should be the judge of what's good and what's bad. For example, how did they think making Sonic a werewolf was a good idea?

Look at all these jealous fags who can't comprehend that Sonic has the most deep fan base of any series because of how great the series is. Newer games don't even need content, as long as there is a blue hedgehog that runs around, the autistic Sonic fans will be happy and content with their furry friends, and Sega knows this, because the story goes so deep, that Sonic has touched their lives forever. It's like MLP, except that Sonic has been around for a way longer time.

First 4 are good. Sonic advance was okay. Everything else was complete shit. Sonic lost worlds will be good from the looks of it.

7 out of an entire career of games since 1991 would make him shit, I guess.

MLP?
Now thats what i call it s***
Its a girls and children show.

At 9/15/13 04:39 PM, LemonCrush wrote: First 4 are good. Sonic advance was okay. Everything else was complete shit. Sonic lost worlds will be good from the looks of it.

7 out of an entire career of games since 1991 would make him shit, I guess.

Colors? Generations? Rush? Rush Adventure? Sonic Chronicles?

Perhaps not everyone would enjoy the last one, but I liked the story and thought the gameplay was similar to the Mario RPGs combined with Elite Beat Agents.

Also, you didn't mention Sonic CD, which is the best Sonic game of all time. Period.

Sonic unleashed is my best sonic game (without werehog stages) they remember me of how slow was sonic in sonic lybirthin.

At 9/16/13 12:50 PM, oobooglunk wrote: Colors? Generations? Rush? Rush Adventure? Sonic Chronicles?

Perhaps not everyone would enjoy the last one, but I liked the story and thought the gameplay was similar to the Mario RPGs combined with Elite Beat Agents.

Also, you didn't mention Sonic CD, which is the best Sonic game of all time. Period.

Colors, Generations, etc just felt so stiff and forced. And from a graphics standpoint, I thought they looked poopy.

Sonic CD falls into the first 4 I mentioned. Sonic 1, 2, 3, CD

Why are people trying to put Sonic down just because of Mario? You don't hear people doing that with all the other platformers. "Bah Ristar sucks cuz Mario durrr".

At 9/16/13 01:45 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
Colors, Generations, etc just felt so stiff and forced. And from a graphics standpoint, I thought they looked poopy.

I can see Generations being described as "stiff and forced", but why Colors? The dialogue in the Wii version was a bit corny, but some of the jokes were laugh-out-loud hilarious. If you didn't like any of the jokes whatsoever, I recommend the DS version. SEGA had a different writing team for that version, and they didn't make the dialogue so cheesy.

As for the graphics, look at Sonic Colors and, say, Super Mario Galaxy 2. Both were released in 2010, and both were on the Wii. Here's a screenshot from Sonic Colors:

http://tempupload.ngfiles.com/4411731.sonic_colors.jpg

And here's an image from Super Mario Galaxy 2:

http://tempupload.ngfiles.com/4411733.mario_galaxy_2.jpg

I believe my evidence speaks for itself.

Sonic CD falls into the first 4 I mentioned. Sonic 1, 2, 3, CD

What about Sonic and Knuckles? Or did you mean "Sonic 3" as in "Sonic 3 and Knuckles" (i.e. the "complete" version of the game accessed through "lock-on technology")?

At 9/16/13 07:03 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Why are people trying to put Sonic down just because of Mario? You don't hear people doing that with all the other platformers. "Bah Ristar sucks cuz Mario durrr".

Well, Sonic was not only directly inspired by Mario, he was designed and marketed for the sole purpose of being his rival in order for SEGA to successfully compete with Nintendo. Remember this ad, for example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsyIu88Smf8