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Grub517
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Why Flash? 2013-09-06 06:08:05 Reply

In all seriousness, why do you choose to use Flash for animation?

I've only known about flash for just over a year, and I'm well aware that it's not ideal for good animating. You can't even draw decent roughs without having each stroke turn into it's own object (or is there another way?). Why don't you use real animation software?
I don't understand stand why people choose to use it. It has a lot of flaws. I'd like to know why...

Max-Vador
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 09:58:34 Reply

At 9/6/13 06:08 AM, Grub517 wrote: In all seriousness, why do you choose to use Flash for animation?

I've only known about flash for just over a year, and I'm well aware that it's not ideal for good animating. You can't even draw decent roughs without having each stroke turn into it's own object (or is there another way?). Why don't you use real animation software?
I don't understand stand why people choose to use it. It has a lot of flaws. I'd like to know why...

been using it for 12 years. back then it was the only thing on the market. now it's my old standard.

Tanadrine-Studios
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 14:47:05 Reply

I'm with max here, the only reason I worked with flash is because it was the only thing on the market at the time. Also, using flash for website design was lucrative at one point... but obviously flash has taken a backseat in that area now.

If I ever do serious 2d animation again, it won't be in flash.... I'm willing to take the time to learn some new software realizing there's a much better selection now. Hopefully the top applications haven't turned into bloatware like many of Adobe's products have.

Max-Vador
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 15:33:12 Reply

when we work on our main film, it's such a mix i can't even describe all the programs we use. sample

sketchup for evnvironment layout
photoshop for bg paintings
flash for /most/ animation
after effects for post-processing
3dsmax for 3d elements
swift for 3d renders
toon boom for any rigged elements
swivel
flash again for any scripted/actionscripted elements
after effects again for compiling

i use so much shit but most animation is done in flash.

KhanhCPham
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 16:28:22 Reply

Although I agree with the OP because flash isnt the ideal standard for 2D animation anymore but I used flash for so long that I found its great for making quick roughs. I use flash for roughs and toon boom for final line art. I am leaning in favor more towards toon boom but the rough stages are the most important part for my animation and I like flash's interface so for now I am keeping both.

At 9/6/13 06:08 AM, Grub517 wrote: You can't even draw decent roughs without having each stroke turn into it's own object (or is there another way?).

You can disable it by clicking the object draw icon (looks like a circle inside a box) that is within the pencil and brush tool.


Currently doing short rough animations here http://khanhcpham.deviantart.com/

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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 17:24:04 Reply

I use it because of the low price!

If you thought I was serious you need help.

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Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 21:44:56 Reply

i use so much shit but most animation is done in flash.

You'd be a fool to use Flash for most animation! You've got Toon Boom! You should know that flash is unacceptably awful.

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 21:48:33 Reply

At 9/6/13 04:28 PM, KhanhCPham wrote: Although I agree with the OP because flash isnt the ideal standard for 2D animation anymore but I used flash for so long that I found its great for making quick roughs. I use flash for roughs and toon boom for final line art. I am leaning in favor more towards toon boom but the rough stages are the most important part for my animation and I like flash's interface so for now I am keeping both.

When I do my roughs in Toon Boom Animate I use a white low opacity brush, and then go over with a black low opacity brush for more defined things. And then when I have to use Flash at school, it's just poo water to animate with. It frustrates me why so many people continue to use Flash.

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-06 21:51:20 Reply

At 9/6/13 09:48 PM, Grub517 wrote:
At 9/6/13 04:28 PM, KhanhCPham wrote: I found its great for making quick roughs. I use flash for roughs and toon boom for final line art. I am leaning in favor more towards toon boom but the rough stages are the most important part for my animation and I like flash's interface so for now I am keeping both.

And with Flash's drawing tools, you might as well draw with crayons...

Max-Vador
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-07 00:45:51 Reply

At 9/6/13 09:44 PM, Grub517 wrote:
i use so much shit but most animation is done in flash.
You'd be a fool to use Flash for most animation! You've got Toon Boom! You should know that flash is unacceptably awful

there's a fine line between a program's limitations, and your own

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-07 04:36:53 Reply

there's a fine line between a program's limitations, and your own

Is there? From what I've learnt flash can't do what I can. Flash should not be used for animation, and it should not be encouraged.

Max-Vador
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 02:12:11 Reply

At 9/7/13 04:36 AM, Grub517 wrote:
there's a fine line between a program's limitations, and your own
Is there? From what I've learnt flash can't do what I can. Flash should not be used for animation, and it should not be encouraged.

from the look of you animations you've hit the limits of the program. i'll now take your words as knowledge and profit from them

also, no

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 04:01:10 Reply

from the look of you animations you've hit the limits of the program. i'll now take your words as knowledge and profit from them

My animations here don't even closely represent what I can do today. Keep that in mind. Properly designed characters, and almost flawless proportions (very consistent, and almost perfect). Better acting. Better drawing. More consideration. My old animation compared to my animation today, is like comparing Flash to Toon Boom. Huge difference.

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 04:49:10 Reply

from the look of you animations you've hit the limits of the program. i'll now take your words as knowledge and profit from them

This is all I've got to show:
Work in progress

They're just roughs. Another thing, Flash doesn't handle 1080p very well. The boarders are a pain in the neck.

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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 06:28:32 Reply

At 9/7/13 04:36 AM, Grub517 wrote: Is there? From what I've learnt flash can't do what I can. Flash should not be used for animation, and it should not be encouraged.

Relax. Your personal experiences, opinions and preferences don't make flash unfit for animation. Some people just feel more comfortable animating in flash and are able to produce incredible results. You obviously didn't achieve what you wanted in flash and moved on to another program, but why is it a problem to you that other people still use it?


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Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 06:55:39 Reply

Relax. Your personal experiences, opinions and preferences don't make flash unfit for animation. Some people just feel more comfortable animating in flash and are able to produce incredible results. You obviously didn't achieve what you wanted in flash and moved on to another program, but why is it a problem to you that other people still use it?

It's not what I didn't achieve, it's what flash can't achieve. Suit yourself if you use it, but it's your own loss if you ask me.

dylan
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 19:12:01 Reply

At 9/7/13 04:36 AM, Grub517 wrote: From what I've learnt flash can't do what I can. Flash should not be used for animation, and it should not be encouraged.

Whoa, slow down there. Flash is a perfectly fine program. No it's not the best, but it's fine. Far more accessible for beginners than ToonBoom, Photoshop, and especially TVPaint.

You've been using the program for an entire year, and still can't figure out how to turn off object drawing; I'd say it's safe to say that the problem lies with you, rather than with Flash and its capabilities. This is a case of blaming the toaster for not working when you haven't plugged it in.

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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 21:10:33 Reply

At 9/8/13 06:55 AM, Grub517 wrote:
Relax. Your personal experiences, opinions and preferences don't make flash unfit for animation. Some people just feel more comfortable animating in flash and are able to produce incredible results. You obviously didn't achieve what you wanted in flash and moved on to another program, but why is it a problem to you that other people still use it?
It's not what I didn't achieve, it's what flash can't achieve. Suit yourself if you use it, but it's your own loss if you ask me.

Lol, Has a lot more features than toonboom. I have used multiple versions of flash,and multiple versions of toonboom. And toonboom was what i did my first animations in. I go with flash cause it works better, the interface is better, it is more customizable than toonboom, and overall its just great. I'm not saying toonboom is bad, i am only stating reasons why flash overcomes it.


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KhanhCPham
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-08 22:57:23 Reply

Hi Max-Vador

*waves* havent seen you in awhile

I thought this post was going to be an actual discussion about the difference on other animation programs that would give more input about "creativity" whatever you do or dont agree. I feel that this discussion is being stuck on the introduction of the question rather than fully explaining why. This is becoming simply "name calling" rather than an actual critique. I am leading towards in favor of Toon Boom but there are still some things I like about flash.

I like flash timelines interface a lot more. I just dont like how Toon Boom treats a copy frame as a clone (edit the original drawing and it also changes the copy). Just simply moving my timeline elements is better in flash in my opinion. Also flash has the ability to warp and edit at a specific spot while editing all of the frames at once. Frame editing is vital for me because I am a frame by frame animator.

I do like Toon Boom's line/pencil tool because its easier to controls curves and I describe it as a semi-object-draw while flash always anchors crossed lines. Toon Boom can import SWF files so I can do final line art tracing on Toon Boom. I am sure Toon Boom can do the same thing as Flash but you just have to do it differently so its just a matter of preference. Even with all things I said here, I am open to more ideas because I am eager to build up as more efficient animator. So far both programs have served me well.

I used flash to help me guide with my latest film "Surprise Counter." I didnt use just flash though. The programs I used is:
-Adobe Flash for rough animation
-Toon Boom for final line art/camera/effects
-Adobe Audition for audio editing. So far I dont think the animation programs have a great audio feature. I use a audio software program because I like to add audio effects such as an EQ and reverb.
-Adobe Premiere to edit all the stuff from above into one film


Currently doing short rough animations here http://khanhcpham.deviantart.com/

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-09 03:41:57 Reply

Whoa, slow down there. Flash is a perfectly fine program. No it's not the best, but it's fine. Far more accessible for beginners than ToonBoom, Photoshop, and especially TVPaint.

You've been using the program for an entire year, and still can't figure out how to turn off object drawing; I'd say it's safe to say that the problem lies with you, rather than with Flash and its capabilities. This is a case of blaming the toaster for not working when you haven't plugged it in.

never said that! I asked if there was another way to draw with emphasis other than using the option. Don't you misunderstand, I know how to use Flash fine.

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-09 03:57:42 Reply

I like flash timelines interface a lot more. I just dont like how Toon Boom treats a copy frame as a clone (edit the original drawing and it also changes the copy). Just simply moving my timeline elements is better in flash in my opinion. Also flash has the ability to warp and edit at a specific spot while editing all of the frames at once. Frame editing is vital for me because I am a frame by frame animator.

You can always duplicate the copied frame, and then it's completely separate from the original. And if you're a frame by frame animator, and I'm assuming you mean a tradigital approach, Toon Boom is unquestionably better to use, regardless of timeline stuff. Rough drawings are very important and vital to me, which is how I manage my proportions so well, and flash does not have the ability I require for drawing. Flash outputs drawing pathetically. But... there could be better again. I absolutely wish I could draw with a non-vector/raster brush, exactly like in photoshop. With variable line emphasis/opacity. Perfect for sketches.

KhanhCPham
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-09 04:49:19 Reply

At 9/9/13 03:57 AM, Grub517 wrote: You can always duplicate the copied frame, and then it's completely separate from the original. And if you're a frame by frame animator, and I'm assuming you mean a tradigital approach, Toon Boom is unquestionably better to use, regardless of timeline stuff. Rough drawings are very important and vital to me, which is how I manage my proportions so well, and flash does not have the ability I require for drawing. Flash outputs drawing pathetically. But... there could be better again. I absolutely wish I could draw with a non-vector/raster brush, exactly like in photoshop. With variable line emphasis/opacity. Perfect for sketches.

Alright now there is a discussion going. I heard is a raster animation program called TVpaint. You can give that a go. I never dove into it myself but the animation class I attend to seem to enjoy it. I still just prefer flash's timeline settings by dragging with the alt shortcut to copy frames much faster. I just find it much as efficient.

Toon Boom's clone and duplicate (yes there different) are both good and at the same time it does seem to slow things down for me. The cloning is amazing for module effects but when it comes to copying and pasting frames, I sometimes dont realize I am either duplicating or cloning. So when I delete a cloned frame, it deletes the other thus making me have to undo or load a backup. I could just remind myself to dont fall into the same habit but there is some habits I cant kill. Much like how I hate photoshop's undo button where it goes to the previous worked-on layer while I want to stay on the current layer. I forget what layer I am working on so I use a plugin to prevent that. Again I can fix that by stopping that habit but I cant seem to kill it.

There is still more stuff to discover on Toon Boom and I really like the program. If I can use the program like it is second nature to me than I'll abandon flash but not yet. You can actually animate with photoshop but I find the timeline feature really lacking.


Currently doing short rough animations here http://khanhcpham.deviantart.com/

Max-Vador
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-09 10:24:11 Reply

At 9/8/13 10:57 PM, KhanhCPham wrote: Hi Max-Vador

*waves* havent seen you in awhile

hey buddy. been kinda out of the scene lately.

anyhow yeah i thought this was how it was starting but the guy got very false-hating on a program he can't use. It just smacked of ignorance so i wasn't gonna sit around and listen to it.

also @Grub when you want to illustrate a point that you've made improvements, show something with improvements. an outline of keyframes shows nothing. again i agree that other programs handle things a lot better than flash, but you hadn't even scraped the surface of the program and you think it's useless.

HowardWimshurst
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-09 14:38:18 Reply

At 9/8/13 07:12 PM, SafePlagiarism wrote:
At 9/7/13 04:36 AM, Grub517 wrote: From what I've learnt flash can't do what I can. Flash should not be used for animation, and it should not be encouraged.
Whoa, slow down there. Flash is a perfectly fine program. No it's not the best, but it's fine. Far more accessible for beginners than ToonBoom, Photoshop, and especially TVPaint.

You've been using the program for an entire year, and still can't figure out how to turn off object drawing; I'd say it's safe to say that the problem lies with you, rather than with Flash and its capabilities. This is a case of blaming the toaster for not working when you haven't plugged it in.

I'm with Dylan on this one. You seem to have an irrational hatred of flash. But the problem was your drawing ability and not knowing how to use flash properly. It sounds to me like you were using a mouse with no pressure sensitivity and have the smoothing settings wrong with object drawing toggled. No wonder you didn't think the brush was good.

I don't mind what your angry opinion is. The fact is that Harry Partridge is able to animate in flash and have a finished product that looks as pristine as this. Maybe you should ask him.

  • Starbarians - Episode 1
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Chongo
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-09 15:06:39 Reply

At 9/8/13 04:01 AM, Grub517 wrote: My animations here don't even closely represent what I can do today. Keep that in mind. Properly designed characters, and almost flawless proportions (very consistent, and almost perfect). Better acting. Better drawing. More consideration. My old animation compared to my animation today, is like comparing Flash to Toon Boom. Huge difference.
At 9/8/13 04:49 AM, Grub517 wrote: This is all I've got to show:
Work in progress

Bro, that's like saying "I have a royal flush in my hand. Here's a ten of spades."

Now, maybe I'm not one to talk, seeing as I'm no animator, but I'm looking around and seeing that people using Flash are doing just fine, creating some fantastic animations with no real major backlash. All that you're doing with this thread is stirring up whatever trouble you can by bashing something that doesn't seem as problematic as you make it out to be. If you're using ToonBoom, then keep using ToonBoom! I can see you're on to making something good! But don't just bitch about other things for no apparent reason. Unless you're trying to convert us all to ToonBoom. Then stop. It's a software. Not a religion. WTF dood.


Always willing to voice act. Make music in my freetime. That's what I get for not having Flash

Click the pic to see the cool stuff I do on the Youtubes

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Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-10 08:01:56 Reply

Now, maybe I'm not one to talk, seeing as I'm no animator, but I'm looking around and seeing that people using Flash are doing just fine, creating some fantastic animations with no real major backlash. All that you're doing with this thread is stirring up whatever trouble you can by bashing something that doesn't seem as problematic as you make it out to be. If you're using ToonBoom, then keep using ToonBoom! I can see you're on to making something good! But don't just bitch about other things for no apparent reason. Unless you're trying to convert us all to ToonBoom. Then stop. It's a software. Not a religion. WTF dood.

I'm only questioning why people use Flash. Because I don't understand why people choose to use it, and why it's so encouraged and supported. I never said it like that. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm trying to get a descent answer. Just shut your lip and don't even go there. I am very anti-flash, but this thread isn't to be against. Your message quite clearly has no place in this thread. You have no answer to my question. No apparent reason? I've got a bag of reasons. As far as I can tell:

- awful for drawing
- awful for roughs
- awful for rigged characters
- awful for big scenes (borders restrict)
- there's no camera
- there's no multiplane
- easily crashes
- it's not even an animation program
- bad gradients
- no textures
- no bones
- no colour pallet
- no dope sheet
- no 3D view
- no perspective
- no morhping!
- low on effects
- less variable tools
- less custom set up
- no rotate view
- no set pivot points
etc.

And with that poker reference, it's not like that. Most of my work here is done without a tablet. And with the use of Flash. But now, I've had a tablet since Christmas. I learnt how to use it more effectively, along with being able to draw with it better. I have also learnt Toon Boom, which gives me an insight to be able to do much bigger and better things. I have been learning more and more about animation, reading Prom Pencils to Pixels is one of the reasons how. Since the start of this year, I have considered many, many more things into my animation. My drawing ability has increased massively, and only Toon Boom seems to put it out right. Unless "animators" on this website animate like I do, then they might not understand mostly where I'm coming from. I've only been going seriously about animation for about a year, and I'm confident that I know Flash is not the right direction to go for animation. Although I know Flash is used a lot for animation, but that doesn't mean that's the way to go. I'd much rather be able to run, than have to crawl.

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-10 08:09:58 Reply

also @Grub when you want to illustrate a point that you've made improvements, show something with improvements. an outline of keyframes shows nothing. again i agree that other programs handle things a lot better than flash, but you hadn't even scraped the surface of the program and you think it's useless.

What ever you say! You've got no idea what I've been through. An outline of key frames? You fool. It's obviously more than key frames. The stretch/yawn is mostly on 2's, so it counts as animation (12.5s). I've shown consistent proportions, good drawings, a more appealing character, emotion, better acting, and things that wouldn't even come close to my previous work. The reason I showed this is because I have nothing else to show. I have a lot of faith in knowing what I can and can't do, and I know I can do a lot better than I have. Since my earlier stuff, I've learnt a lot and I now approach things differently.
Go home.

Grub517
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-10 08:17:02 Reply

I'm with Dylan on this one. You seem to have an irrational hatred of flash. But the problem was your drawing ability and not knowing how to use flash properly. It sounds to me like you were using a mouse with no pressure sensitivity and have the smoothing settings wrong with object drawing toggled. No wonder you didn't think the brush was good.

I don't mind what your angry opinion is. The fact is that Harry Partridge is able to animate in flash and have a finished product that looks as pristine as this. Maybe you should ask him.
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/593843

I'm not even angry. I'm just proving my point. I do know how to use flash properly. I can draw very well. I know pretty much no one else who can draw as well as me. I use a tablet. It's not my fault flash sucks for drawing, and it's absolutely true. Harry Partridge is an idiot. He thinks he knows what's good and what isn't. If he knew anything, he would know that goanimate is a fantastic stepping stone into animation, and should be encouraged. It helps develop video and story telling skills greatly. And with what you can't do in Go!Animate BTW, you can! You can animate things out of the props. I'm a proud user of Goanimate, and I support it. Say what crap you want about it, it doesn't change the truth.

Max-Vador
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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-10 10:05:08 Reply

well let me cut that list down.

- awful for drawing- user error
- awful for roughs- user error
- awful for rigged characters- user error
- awful for big scenes (borders restrict)- borders are user-set
- there's no camera - true though remedied with actionscript
- there's no multiplane- what do you think layers are?
- easily crashes- user error. i've crashed maybe 3 times in the last few years. and auto-recovery has saved my ass
- it's not even an animation program- subjective
- bad gradients- false again
- no textures- false
- no bones- false
- no colour pallet -(incredibly false)
- no dope sheet -(false- guide layer)
- no 3D view (not necessary in 2d environment)
- no perspective - doesn't make sense
- no morhping! -false(free-transform while holding ctrl)
- low on effects -false
- less variable tools -objective
- less custom set up -false
- no rotate view -true(wow you're 1 for 20)
- no set pivot points -false(have you ever opened this program before?)
etc.

i've come to the conclusion you've never used flash.

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Response to Why Flash? 2013-09-10 11:31:42 Reply

You know, you're right! Flash is so overrated! In fact, you've sparked a passion inside of me! As much as I hate to derail your excellent points, I feel a rant coming on for all the people that voice act out there!

Why the FUCK do you use Audacity? I mean I gave it a shot, but it's more than clear that it's a broken program and my incredibly sexy voice acting skills have surpassed its abilities as a software. Let's go over some of its many many many flaws shall we?

Cant record without starting a new channel
No noise removal
Can't move sounds within channels
Cant loop play
Hardly any effects
The effects that do exist have 0 customization (6 minus 6 people)
Only fun for reversing songs
Cant export to MP3 without compressing
Not even a recording program
Cant generate a silence without fucking everything up
Cant Change Speed without changing pitch
Cant import my MIDIs
Etc

Long story short, I only wonder why anyone would still be using Audacity and if anyone gives me a reason that makes sense, then that doesnt really matter! My voice acting skills have far improved which I cant show cuz my last gig was like two months ago but its totally awesome and you might say that I don't know how to use this program but you'd be wrong. I'm too good of a voice actor to be wrong about how a program works.

HOW IS DIS SHIT RECOMMENDEDED??


Always willing to voice act. Make music in my freetime. That's what I get for not having Flash

Click the pic to see the cool stuff I do on the Youtubes

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