The Flood

[Cynical-Charlotte]

One of the most exciting prospects of anthropology is to learn about world history through the traditions of various cultures. A fable most of us are probably familiar with is the Biblical account of "Noah's Flood." If not, here is a brief synopsis from the book of Genesis: The world is filled with violence and evil, so God decides to destroy mankind with a huge flood. However, Noah and his family is chosen to be preserved, along with animals, through the construction of a large vessel called the Ark. After the catastrophe, Noah releases a few birds in an attempt to find land. Eventually, they come to rest on the peak of a mountain where they disembark, praise God, and receive His blessing.

Now, if you are like me, you would probably read this for the first time as a quaint story contrived by one of the ancient Hebrews. It may surprise you to learn just how many ancient cultures had a tradition eerily similar to the one commonly known today. I propose the Flood as a real historical event deserves thoughtful consideration.

For example, in the ancient Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, the gods plan to wipe man out with a flood. Utnapishtim is instructed to build a boat for his family, friends, and all animals. They are spared from the destruction and become caught on mount Nimush. Utnapishtim releases birds (incidentally, the same type released by Noah - the dove and raven - are included). After being able to leave the boat, sacrifices are made and the gods are pleased.

The story has been told similarly all over the world by the Romans, Greeks, Welsh, Celts, Scandinavians, Germans, Chinese, Turks, Indians, Mongolians, Koreans, Chaldeans, Egyptians, Persians, Nigerians, Tanzanians, Mandingo - even by North American natives such as the Eskimo, Kwakiutl, Kato, Choctaw, Navajo, Chitimacha, and Cherokee - plus native Central and South Americans including the Totonac, Quiché, Mayans, Acawai, Makiritare, Yanomamö, and Selk'nam ... *whew*! And, this is by no means an exhaustive list!

From a scholarly standpoint, it is obvious these people are speaking about the same catastrophe. The basic story is not confined to one area of the world, but every inhabited continent. While certain elements differ, the theme of judgment by water, the sparing of a select people, and a specific vessel/barge is undeniably prominent. Perhaps we should acknowledge the possibility that there remains some truth in the history passed down through the generations.

Please do not turn this into a topic centered around the validity of the Bible. This is about anthropology, not religion.

[24901miles]

At 8/18/13 02:03 PM, Cynical-Charlotte wrote: From a scholarly standpoint, it is obvious these people are speaking about the same catastrophe. The basic story is not confined to one area of the world, but every inhabited continent. While certain elements differ, the theme of judgment by water, the sparing of a select people, and a specific vessel/barge is undeniably prominent. Perhaps we should acknowledge the possibility that there remains some truth in the history passed down through the generations.

From a scholarly standpoint, you are selling an agenda. Why are these stories necessarily all derived from the same event, or catastrophe? It is much more reasonable to assume that major floods around the world threatened individual cultures and those cultures reacted by telling stories which would teach their young how to prepare for the worst. Without archaeological evidence for a worldwide flood, without any evidence that all flood myths originated from one event, why would anyone on this forum take your word for it?

[Light]

At 8/18/13 02:29 PM, 24901miles wrote:

From a scholarly standpoint, you are selling an agenda. Why are these stories necessarily all derived from the same event, or catastrophe? It is much more reasonable to assume that major floods around the world threatened individual cultures and those cultures reacted by telling stories which would teach their young how to prepare for the worst. Without archaeological evidence for a worldwide flood, without any evidence that all flood myths originated from one event, why would anyone on this forum take your word for it?

This.

There seems to be a dearth of scientific evidence that precludes scientists, archaeologists, and anthropologists from concluding that a global flood occurred in the distant past, around several thousand years ago. What seems much more likely is that floods have threatened many of these cultures at different times and that they've responded in similar ways.

I admit that the similarity in responses is astonishing and somewhat difficult for me to explain, as I am no expert in anthropology or sociology, but because there seems to be no compelling evidence as of now to substantiate the occurrence of a global flood. I suppose there's just an interesting commonality in human storytelling around the world in response to natural disasters and other life-changing events.

[AxTekk]

Thing is for me, geology has already ruled out the possibility of an actual worldwide flood.

It's also worth pointing out how many of these cultures had gods based on water imagery and the Hindus had their whole cosmology based on it. Floods were also rarely the only catastrophe mentioned, and depending on the region you also got whatever disasters their people would have seen (great fires, earthquakes and the occasional volcano). All the people you mentioned just happened to live near a large body of water.

Floods hold a special place in our psyche though; I think this would be because of our dichotomy between land and water. The fear of land turning to water is the fear of instability. Water also falls from the heavens bringing life giving it a godlike quality, making a flood an especially suitable symbol for divine judgement.

tl;dr it ain't necessarily so

[Light]

A cursory glance at the history of flood myths on Wikipedia led me to this page about Lake Agassiz. It's a glacial lake that no longer exists; some speculate that its melting may have resulted in a large flood in the Mesopotamian area, but it's in the hypothetical stage as of now.

[AxTekk]

At 8/18/13 02:51 PM, Light wrote: I admit that the similarity in responses is astonishing and somewhat difficult for me to explain, as I am no expert in anthropology or sociology, but because there seems to be no compelling evidence as of now to substantiate the occurrence of a global flood. I suppose there's just an interesting commonality in human storytelling around the world in response to natural disasters and other life-changing events.

I also think OP oversells this, the commonalities aren't that striking. Literally the only thing all the stories he mentions have in common is that there was a big flood. Sometimes this was rain, sometimes it was waves. Sometimes it was punishment, sometimes it was simply an unintended consequence.

The only really strong similarity I can see is between the Hebrews and the Babylonians. They are both probably based on some common Mesopotamian myth following a flood in that region, given how close the two cultures are.

What would sell this for me, OP, is off a number of completely landlocked cultures that had no chance of experiencing giant floods had the same myth. If, for example, the same myth was told in Mongolia, the Congo and Central Russia I would be a little more curious. But even then, like I've said, geology has ruled out the possibility of a world wide flood.

[Camarohusky]

What is more likely is that there were a handful of catastrophic floods (more like tsunami events) and the survivors made them into legend and these legends then spread amongst the similar cultural peoples.

If you think about it, there isn't a place where ancient humans settled that didn't have routine (geologically routine) tsunami events.

The Pacific Rim is a hotbed for tsunami action, what with the numerous subduction zones and all. This could easily account for the legends occuring in East Asia, South East Asia, and the Americas (the latter assuming the legend travelled accross the continent, which is very possible in North America).

The Eastern Indian Ocean has a massive subduction zone which could account for such legends in South Asia, East Africa, Arabia, Persia, and even up into the Mesopotamia.

The Meditteranean has a big history of highly explosive volcanoes and of other tsunami causing seismic activity (Etna once had a lanside that made St. Helens' look tiny. This would easily explain Europe (including North Europe, through the Celts), North Africa, and the Eastern Mediterranean.

The placement of the continents makes a temporary worldwide flood nearly impossible. The closest I've heard to a flood that would have touched most of then civilization was a comet that crashed into the Indian Ocean that caused massive floods on all of the Indian Ocean coasts.

[Cynical-Charlotte]

At 8/18/13 02:56 PM, AxTekk wrote: Thing is for me, geology has already ruled out the possibility of an actual worldwide flood.

I have read about evidence in favor of the idea. For example, we have found fossils of sea animals in mountains (Ex.) - scientists rarely attribute this to a global flood due to their timetables; nevertheless, a flood would be an adequate explanation due to the fossilization process. There have also been fossils found in the antarctic. I also acknowledge the possibility of tectonic activity, but these are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, scientific study cannot fully explain history. Many neutral facts can be interpreted different ways, and I offer these to be thought provoking.

At 8/18/13 02:29 PM, 24901miles wrote: From a scholarly standpoint, you are selling an agenda.

Not so. I have provided examples of legend/folklore to incite discussion. Similarities in tradition often implies a common source in anthropological study - especially when specific details (such as the deity giving instructions to build a vessel, and the new humanity originating from the remnant family) are preserved. The standard theory among researchers is that humans originated near the fertile crescent. Sumer, one of the most ancient civilizations, could reasonably have been the origin of the Flood narrative.

[Cynical-Charlotte]

I found a graphic illustrating the most obvious similarities among the major Flood traditions when compared to that of the Hebrews. I believe it was adapted from Bryon Nelson's The Deluge Story in Stone. If this was an actual project for my course, I'd probably create one myself with even more columns because I believe there is more to be discovered. But, this is a great visualization. It is worth noting that they are in or near unanimous agreement with the destruction method, scale, and escape vessel. Were these separate accounts of localized floods, I do not presume each group of people would be confused as to what constitutes totality - especially considering the idea that one family implicitly repopulates the world in many of the tales.

[Angry-Hatter]

Claim CC364:

Seashells and other marine fossils have been found on mountaintops, even very tall ones. These indicate that the sea once covered the mountains, which is evidence for a global flood.

Source:

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985. Life--How Did It Get Here? Brooklyn, NY, p. 203.

Response:

1. Shells on mountains are easily explained by uplift of the land. Although this process is slow, it is observed happening today, and it accounts not only for the seashells on mountains but also for the other geological and paleontological features of those mountains. The sea once did cover the areas where the fossils are found, but they were not mountains at the time; they were shallow seas.

2. A flood cannot explain the presence of marine shells on mountains for the following reasons:

* Floods erode mountains and deposit their sediments in valleys.

* In many cases, the fossils are in the same positions as they grow in life, not scattered as if they were redeposited by a flood. This was noted as early as the sixteenth century by Leonardo da Vinci (Gould 1998).

* Other evidence, such as fossilized tracks and burrows of marine organisms, show that the region was once under the sea. Seashells are not found in sediments that were not formerly covered by sea.

Thread over.

[Cynical-Charlotte]

At 8/18/13 04:06 PM, Angry-Hatter wrote: Thread over.

I have thoroughly read this and even mentioned it one of my earlier posts. Please read them before responding unless your intention is to win an argument rather than encourage a discussion on alternative theories.

[Angry-Hatter]

At 8/18/13 02:03 PM, Cynical-Charlotte wrote: From a scholarly standpoint, it is obvious these people are speaking about the same catastrophe.

This, right here. There is NO evidence to support the assertion that there was ever a world-wide flood. What is there to discuss?

[AxTekk]

At 8/18/13 03:59 PM, Cynical-Charlotte wrote: I found a graphic illustrating the most obvious similarities among the major Flood traditions when compared to that of the Hebrews. I believe it was adapted from Bryon Nelson's The Deluge Story in Stone. If this was an actual project for my course, I'd probably create one myself with even more columns because I believe there is more to be discovered. But, this is a great visualization. It is worth noting that they are in or near unanimous agreement with the destruction method, scale, and escape vessel. Were these separate accounts of localized floods, I do not presume each group of people would be confused as to what constitutes totality - especially considering the idea that one family implicitly repopulates the world in many of the tales.

This picture really bugs me. First off, the first four columns probably all stem from the same story, the cultures being neighbours, so that much is highly misleading.

Secondly, most the rows are redundancies there to give the illusion of abundant evidence, as many of the rows imply each other (ie: "survivors worship" and "divine favour on those saved", or "men in transgression" and "divine destruction"). "Humans saved" seems pretty obligatory, given that if they weren't there wouldn't be a myth. "Destruction by water" seems just straight stupid: if it's a flood, it would be pretty freakin' weird if this box was unchecked.

Thirdly, a lot of the myths are oversimplified. Take the Indian myth for instance (it's the only one I'm really familiar with): It's listed as divine destruction, but it is never said in the Puranas that Shiva had any hand in the flood at all, and it certainly wasn't done to wipe mankind out (they made a point of warning them). The favoured family bit is also bogus: the entire human race was saved. And I have never heard or read any version of the story where Manu sent out birds. SO, BASICALLY: The world flooded, Manu built a boat and they went to the only bit of land left above the water. If we're talking straight that's only two pieces of actual similarity which just seem fairly common sense.

Fourthly, all the cultures with arks bordered the sea and were a seafaring people. It seems more likely that the people coming up with the myth in those cultures just thought boats would be a nifty way around a big flood.

So all in all:

- A lot of the cultures in that picture were neighbours, I can only see six distinct peoples on the list (mesopotamian, mesoamerican, polynesian, semitic, east european and mediterranean).
- Most the rows are bogus categories and even the mildly unusual ones that would slightly contradict common sense go largely unticked (see: animals saved).
- A lot of the details the picture says match up actually don't when you check your facts.
- Specifics of the myths are clearly localised to each group, suggesting that it is a number of similar local myths rather than one objective truth.

[Angry-Hatter]

At 8/18/13 03:59 PM, Cynical-Charlotte wrote: I found a graphic

Just out of curiosity, did you by any chance happen to find that graphic on this very page?

[Cynical-Charlotte]

At 8/18/13 05:11 PM, AxTekk wrote: Secondly, most the rows are redundancies there to give the illusion of abundant evidence, as many of the rows imply each other (ie: "survivors worship" and "divine favour on those saved", or "men in transgression" and "divine destruction"). "Humans saved" seems pretty obligatory, given that if they weren't there wouldn't be a myth. "Destruction by water" seems just straight stupid: if it's a flood, it would be pretty freakin' weird if this box was unchecked.

Perhaps you should read a summary on each of the culture's mentioned. The reason for the catastrophe is not agreed upon universally, which is why the transgression and destruction columns are separate. Not all disaster narratives involve water, but it would stand to reason that if the same event/tale is being spoken of by each group, they would have the critical elements such as this. I presume the creator of the chart sought specificity - details are important in traditional records when possible.

The world flooded, Manu built a boat and they went to the only bit of land left above the water. If we're talking straight that's only two pieces of actual similarity which just seem fairly common sense.

Agreed.

- Specifics of the myths are clearly localised to each group, suggesting that it is a number of similar local myths rather than one objective truth.

Rather, it indicates the translations became warped over time as humanity migrated away from the Sumer region (you seem to ignore the time periods involved) - this can be observed as you move further from the Fertile Crescent. It is possible each civilization developed their own Flood account, but I find this unlikely due to the striking similarities. Instead, I believe the foundational story originated with the Babylonians and Hebrews as their versions retain the most detail. However, the dimensions of the Hebrew Ark is ideal which may suggest their account is more accurate than even Babylon. The scribes rigorously committed to preserving the integrity of the original work which was most likely written by Moses.

[Cynical-Charlotte]

At 8/18/13 02:59 PM, Light wrote: A cursory glance at the history of flood myths on Wikipedia led me to this page about Lake Agassiz. It's a glacial lake that no longer exists; some speculate that its melting may have resulted in a large flood in the Mesopotamian area, but it's in the hypothetical stage as of now.

Interesting find! It also reminds me of the mammoths uncovered and theorized to have been frozen instantly in some catastrophic event. But, this area may help explain the traditions of some northern tribes.

[AxTekk]

At 8/18/13 06:12 PM, Cynical-Charlotte wrote: Perhaps you should read a summary on each of the culture's mentioned. The reason for the catastrophe is not agreed upon universally, which is why the transgression and destruction columns are separate. Not all disaster narratives involve water, but it would stand to reason that if the same event/tale is being spoken of by each group, they would have the critical elements such as this. I presume the creator of the chart sought specificity - details are important in traditional records when possible.

The thing is that much of this "specificity" is entirely redundant. If you talk about a flood, you talk about destruction by water. If not, it isn't a flood disaster and shouldn't be on the chart. It isn't particularly useful detail either, I'd say about 90% of the details are redundancies covered by the blanket term "divine flood catastrophe". They're simply thrown in in a blatant attempt to make the argument look more convincing than the facts show it to be.

Rather, it indicates the translations became warped over time as humanity migrated away from the Sumer region (you seem to ignore the time periods involved) - this can be observed as you move further from the Fertile Crescent.

That's some serious Hebrew-centrism. Each tradition is different, you could just as easily say that the translations warped as you move away from the Polynesian isles or mesoamerica. The fact is that these are clearly different stories bound together simply by the idea of a big flood and that half the checked boxes shouldn't be checked or just shouldn't be there at all. Bang all you want, the square peg will not go into the round hole.

It is possible each civilization developed their own Flood account, but I find this unlikely due to the striking similarities. Instead, I believe the foundational story originated with the Babylonians and Hebrews as their versions retain the most detail. However, the dimensions of the Hebrew Ark is ideal which may suggest their account is more accurate than even Babylon. The scribes rigorously committed to preserving the integrity of the original work which was most likely written by Moses.

The similarities consist of, literally, a flood and sometimes a boat. All in cultures that would have likely experienced flooding, and the boat bit only happened in cultures with boats. We also hear of worldwide fires, and of worldwide earthquakes in these cultures but because they do not enter the Judaeo Christian tradition, they are notable by their omission.

Also, I was under the illusion that the dimensions of the ark were never written in Genesis. And if relying on the bible's validity is where your argument leads you, I don't think it's really worthy of lengthy discussion.

You're welcome to believe what you want, of course, it just sounds ridiculously one sided. Belief is the operative word, because it is clearly predating any rationale in your argument.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

yeah a glacier melted in the Black Sea and the whole region flooded. big woop.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/19/13 08:12 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: yeah a glacier melted in the Black Sea and the whole region flooded. big woop.

That wouldn't explain the similar legends in Mesopotamia, East Asia, India, Africa, and The Americas.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 8/19/13 11:43 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 8/19/13 08:12 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: yeah a glacier melted in the Black Sea and the whole region flooded. big woop.

That wouldn't explain the similar legends in Mesopotamia, East Asia, India, Africa, and The Americas.

things can be passed down over time by travelers by stories. it wouldn't be surprising.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/19/13 11:46 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: things can be passed down over time by travelers by stories. it wouldn't be surprising.

That still runs into problems with China and the Americas, as well as sub-saharan Africa.

What is more likely is at least several events. The fact that flooding and tsunamis aren't exactly rare or geographically limited, combined with the base elements of the tale being either quite generic themes or very basic flood related themes, shows that this could have easily been independently created from similar base events.

There are numerous examples of sociological, cultural, and even evolutionary traits and alike that are extremely similar, but developed 100% independent of eachother. Many of the divine epics from around the world share numerous elements. Social hierarchies have been extremely similar across most civilizations, regardless of how much contact they had with eachother. As for the evolutionary trait, the night vision of canines and felines works exactly the same yet were evolved from very different beginnings independently of the other.

[SteveGuzzi]

inb4 "Atlantis".

[AxTekk]

At 8/19/13 01:17 PM, Camarohusky wrote: sub-saharan Africa.

I agree with you entirely, but it's worth noting that there are originally Sumerian/ Semitic peoples in Nigeria. It could just as easily have been brought down from Mesopotamia by the Ewe. People seem to forget how complex West African genealogy is.

But yeah, I agree 100%

[Cynical-Charlotte]

At 8/18/13 07:31 PM, AxTekk wrote: That's some serious Hebrew-centrism.

I disagree. The Sumerian region is home to the most ancient civilization known. It would not be arbitrary to choose it as the focal point for all major flood myths as humankind dispersed from the Fertile Crescent. The argument would be invalid if we appeared on all the continents simultaneously (ludicrous).

The similarities consist of, literally, a flood and sometimes a boat.

Also, the 'divine preservation' of a family through direct intervention is common. To an anthropologist, it is obvious a catastrophic water event took place among the Sumerian ancestors, and they seemed to believe only a small fragment of society survived by living on a barge. The legend becomes less similar the farther your examination moves from ancient Babylon/Assyria. However, a Central American tribe which may have recorded a separate flood does not discount the ties found in Europe, Asia, and Africa.

[HibiscusMallow]

Probably just a regular flood.

Or maybe the end of the ice age.

[Cynical-Charlotte]

- Hebrew: Evil world, Noah warned by God of a flood, ark built, animals saved, 40 day storm, window opened, raven and dove(s) released, lands on mountain, sacrifices made, favor shown, rainbow.

- Sumerian (Assyrian): Evil world, Utnapishtim warned by god Ea of a flood, ark built, animals saved, 6 day storm, birds released, lands on mountain, sacrifices made, favor received.

- Sumerian: Man must be destroyed, Ziusudra warned by god Enlil of a flood, ark built, animals saved, 7 day storm, window opened, sacrifices made, favor received.

- Babylonian: Population issue, Atra-Hasis warned by god Enki of a flood, ark built, animals saved, 7 day flood, sacrifices made, favor received.

- Greek/Roman: Evil world, flood sent by god Zeus, Deucalion warned by god Prometheus, boat built, 9 day storm, lands on a mountain, sacrifices made, favor received.

- Hindu: Evil world, Manu warned by god Vishnu of a flood, ark built, animals and plants saved, sails to a mountain for tethering, offerings given, blessing received.

- Masain: Evil world, Tumbainot is warned by God of a flood, ark built, animals saved, a dove and vulture(s) released, lands in the mountains, favor shown, rainbow.

- Lithuanian: Evil world, the god Pramzimas destroys it with giants, a family survives in a floating shell thrown down by him, lands on a mountain, a rainbow is sent.

- Choctaw: The prophet of god warned the people of a flood but no one listened, only he survived on a raft, birds were signaled, lands on an island.

- Eskimo: A great flood and earthquake wipes out all the earth, two Shaman survive on a boat which rests on mountain, they lived on the fish, evidence is the bones of shellfish and other things in mountains.

- British Colombia natives: A great flood covered the whole earth and the survivors sailed to the tops of mountains, but when they met again they spoke different languages.

- Jicarilla Apache: A man and his wife are warned of a flood by Dios, they warn others who don't believe, a 40 day storm comes, all the world is destroyed except the man and others who came to a mountain.

- Papago: A coyote warns a man of a flood, they build a boat out of a tree, lands on a mountain.

- Tarascan: A man is told by God to build a house, animals enter, a great flood comes, raven and dove sent out.

- Incan: All the earth was killed by a flood except a man and wife in a box.

- Korean: A world flood comes, a boy is saved by his tree father, they float to a mountain where the boy survives.

- Mandan: Waters rose to drown all mankind, only Nu-mohk-muck-a-nah survived by sailing to a mountain "in the west."

- Siberian: Noj told by god Burkhan to build an ark, animals saved, flood destroys the world.

- Welsh: Afanc causes a flood, all the world destroyed, Dwyfan and Dwyfach build an ark, animals saved, lands in Britain.

- Panama: All humans descend from a family that survived a flood by building a canoe.

- Arawak: Evil world, god Aiomun Kondi warns a loyal man Marerewana of a flood, a boat is built, family saved.

[Light]

It's highly plausible that human cultures all over the world tried to explain these events in Manichean terms since they were so primitive and attributed the existence of natural phenomena to the whims of the deities they believed in. Particularly devastating phenomena were probably thought to be signs that a deity was displeased for some reason. Naturally, since deities in most religions are perceived as righteous beings, the only conceivable things that could elicit their anger were the malevolent acts committed by certain unnamed people.

What I also find interesting from a philosophical point of view is the idea that this was caused by some deity. I don't believe at all that there was a global flood since no evidence exists to support it, but if there were, it begs the question: why was there a global flood? If it was caused by some deity, which one was it?

Let's pretend that the scientific community came to the consensus that there was a global flood. Seriously, how would anyone know which deity caused the flood? I could easily contend that the God of the Native Americans caused it, not the Judeo-Christian God.

I know that this wasn't explicitly intended to be a thread about religion Cynical-Charlotte, but I'm fairly certain that you're a Christian who believes that the Deluge happened as described in the Bible. If this is so, I am curious, how are you certain that your god caused it, and not some other god that you don't currently worship or have even heard of?

[Light]

There's something I forgot to take into account in my last post: inbreeding.

In many of these stories, a massive amount of inbreeding can be inferred to have occurred as only a few people survive these flood myths. Noah and his family are just one example.

Alas, biologists have found no evidence of massive inbreeding around several thousand years ago. Furthermore, I don't know how the human race could survive and flourish all over the Earth once more after dwindling to just a couple of people, given the deleterious effects of inbreeding.

[Cynical-Charlotte]

At 8/19/13 06:52 PM, Light wrote: I know that this wasn't explicitly intended to be a thread about religion Cynical-Charlotte, but I'm fairly certain that you're a Christian who believes that the Deluge happened as described in the Bible. If this is so, I am curious, how are you certain that your god caused it, and not some other god that you don't currently worship or have even heard of?

All historical study is primarily dependent upon accounts given by the people of the time period. Both major and minor events are generally understood to be true occurrences when multiple writings of the correct genre can be found on the matter. Oral tradition, while not as concrete as literature, can be tremendously useful when compared to other regional traditions. Surely we can only learn history from those who were actually witnesses?

I take particular interest in the Hebrews because their literature is the most detailed and their scribes went through excruciating persistence in maintaining the integrity of their original copies. The extent of this can be understood when you realize they spoke aloud every single letter before committing it to paper. What's more, they seamlessly integrate what most would call "mythology" with their actual historical records. For example, their genealogy can be traced from King David all the way back to Noah by each father. This raises the question of at what point the text begins to speak of 'real people.' In contrast, the tales by other cultures are not as precise.

However, alternative accounts should not be dismissed but rather compared to the most reliable. The purpose of this thread is to show how easily the traditions of other cultures can be compared to the Biblical, which implies a shared history in some regard. The same method has been used for civilizations other than the ancients (ie: US traditions acquired from England); so, my assumption is that opponents disregard anything having to do with the Bible for reasons they would probably cite from the New Testament and not the Torah et al.

[Light]

At 8/19/13 08:15 PM, Cynical-Charlotte wrote:
All historical study is primarily dependent upon accounts given by the people of the time period. Both major and minor events are generally understood to be true occurrences when multiple writings of the correct genre can be found on the matter. Oral tradition, while not as concrete as literature, can be tremendously useful when compared to other regional traditions. Surely we can only learn history from those who were actually witnesses?

As a history major(Yea, I'm majoring in that too, lol), I agree.

However, alternative accounts should not be dismissed but rather compared to the most reliable. The purpose of this thread is to show how easily the traditions of other cultures can be compared to the Biblical, which implies a shared history in some regard.

I understand where you're coming from, but I would disagree with the claim that this comparison is, in of itself, evidence of a shared history. This is just one story that's common throughout multiple cultures. Speaking as an amateur historian(Well, I like to think of myself as one, lol), I think you'd need much more than similarities in stories that are commonly told in cultures that were likely to be severely impacted by floods to establish a "shared history."Indeed, as far as professional historians and anthropologists are concerned, this just hasn't been established.

The same method has been used for civilizations other than the ancients (ie: US traditions acquired from England); so, my assumption is that opponents disregard anything having to do with the Bible for reasons they would probably cite from the New Testament and not the Torah et al.

Ah yes, but the example you use of a shared history and culture between the U.S. and Britain is heavily substantiated. The same just can't be said of these primitive cultures.