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At 8/16/13 12:04 PM, TomFulp wrote: Another note - we intend to allow people to append blog posts for projects, so in that case they could also have a blog post with the speed painting, append it to the project, and it would be listed as a related news post on the view page. But really we could just offer both options.
Yay! Hopefully people wrote more post mortems and not just "check out this game" posts. Though you'd have to be able to attach the post after publishing the game if you wanna talk about the project's reception.
I'd prefer this for the speed painting as well. I doubt the portal will get clogged with them, but they don't feel like something I could rate higher than a 3. The final art piece would heavily bias the score, so it might as well be in the art portal anyway.
I vote "yes". I'm not into speedpaint videos myself. I prefer to see just the finished artwork, instead of the road towards it. But the average speedpaint video is still better than the average Newgrounds movie, because half of the videos here is either from beginners who don't know how to make good videos yet, or from people who purposely make bad videos (spam videos). Even though I don't like the later two categories either, I'm still fine with the videos being here. Everyone has to learn, and posting your first videos here is a great way to get feedback. Apparently there's a marked for spam videos because they always get accepted. There even are entire groups devoted to these kind of videos. I think there's a market for speedpaint videos as well. This is a creative community with lots of artists and speedpaint videos are a useful way to learn how artwork can be made. I do think they should be categorized into a group (just like there's a spam category), so it reaches the right audience. Another thing I want to point out if it's not too off topic; there seems to be a bias against life action as well. Most are actually not that great, but even the ones that are get through with low ratings. Except when they're made by someone who's already well established on NG. Like Oney with his movie Super Slumber Party. Some people mention in the reviews they think life action isn't allowed on Newgrounds, even though it clearly is. Perhaps a category life action as well, or at least a bit more clarity that it's not against the rules.
I apologise in advance because this is kind of a semi-rant, feel free to skip it since it doesn't adress any of the posted suggestions, though I like the mentioned features that Tom talked about.
When I think more about it, then I feel like we are missing the core problem of this whole thing. We must ask ourselves: Why are users even posting speedpaintings in the flash portal? To me, the answer is very simple. Out of all the main portals, it is the one that offers the most exposure for new artists. Let's be honest: when you are a new flash artist, then in the most ideal outcome your stuff gets frontpaged quickly and you will probably win a Daily award, which gives you the ability to post on the frontpage, so that from now on you can promote your art pieces and audio on your frontpaged newsposts.
As for other artists? Post the best painting in the world and it doesn't even appear in the art portal. You have to make 3 more art pieces and even then you probably have to wait for a long time to get scouted. When I look at the frontpaged art, then almost all are from already established artist that have been making art for years.
Same goes for the audio portal. The lack of both views and reviews there is a known issue when you read feedback from audio artists and the low amount of votes in combination with 0-bombers scares people away to other sites as Soundcloud.
And that's why we see speedpaintings and "music videos" with the song and a fancy image in the background in the flash portals, because all other parts simply leave new users completely in the dust and don't offer enough feedback. Same goes probably for users who are either exlusively users who produce drawings or audio and notice that their stuff gets less views than stuff in the flash (or movie) portal.
The problem with this though (and I don't claim to be right) though is that there isn't a simple solution for it. You can't force more views for the audio and art portal. And there is also the problem the stuff even in the flash portals takes days to pass. To be honest, I dislike to leave this negative post because the site is so great but that's how I feel about this whole thing. The core issue is a lack of views, which is more apparent in the less visited art and audio portal.
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Yes, if people want to see them it's better that there's a place for them here than outside the site. Also, is it possible to add some kind of note that using your frontpage posts to advertise your YouTube is being a dick (and I will take several puppies hostage for every time it happens)?
At 8/16/13 12:28 PM, MSGhero wrote:At 8/16/13 12:04 PM, TomFulp wrote: Another note - we intend to allow people to append blog posts for projectsYay! Hopefully people wrote more post mortems and not just "check out this game" posts. Though you'd have to be able to attach the post after publishing the game if you wanna talk about the project's reception.
Post-mortems are one of the big reasons why I want this feature, so people can follow-up their release with retrospective insights on the development. We will also be revisiting the Alphas concept from years ago, where unpublished projects have a public face where news can be posted. For example imagine if Road of the Dead 2 had a hub this entire time that it's been in development.
At 8/16/13 12:38 PM, SourJovis wrote: Except when they're made by someone who's already well established on NG. Like Oney with his movie Super Slumber Party. Some people mention in the reviews they think life action isn't allowed on Newgrounds, even though it clearly is. Perhaps a category life action as well, or at least a bit more clarity that it's not against the rules.
Live action actually is, in general, frowned upon. It's a tricky area because live action can very easily flood out animation and although it might be good for traffic, it would likely change the whole vibe of the site. NG already suffers a lot from trying to do too many things but we have a certain harmony going on. Super Slumber Party was an exception because it was just SO newgrounds, with Oney and Stamper. And I'm open to live action with post-production elements, like if MindChamber makes a movie that mixes a bunch of robots in with real people. I'm just nervous about how far we dip our toes into live action. I'm also just afraid at the sheer number of BAD live action movies there are on the web and how quickly people can produce gigabytes worth of them.
At 8/16/13 12:13 PM, BenjaminTibbetts wrote: Newgrounds could go down that route. It's conceivable that, underneath each menu item for "Games", "Movies", "Audio" and "Art" there could be an option like "Video Tutorials" or "Learn How!". Speed-painting would find a place as an educational tool.
It would be awesome to have a section where users could upload video tutorials or speed-whatevers for educational value
At 8/16/13 12:50 PM, AndyOfTheArcticDucks wrote: Yes, if people want to see them it's better that there's a place for them here than outside the site. Also, is it possible to add some kind of note that using your frontpage posts to advertise your YouTube is being a dick (and I will take several puppies hostage for every time it happens)?
I die a little inside every time someone uses our front page to blatantly redirect traffic to their YouTube. I don't think it reflects well on the people who do it and I know a lot of NG regulars agree. I know we need to have better paying ads but a majority of these guys never make any money on YouTube anyway, YouTube just dangles a big carrot in front of them and they think they need to redirect all their internet fans there. Just make your damn Pokemon movie and soak up the search traffic like everyone else who wants to go big on YouTube.
Maybe add a section to the Art portal as Speedpaint or whatever lolz. It would be nice, I sometimes like to see it on what type of thechniques they are using to create their art.
To be honest, I don't think it should start with speedpainting as a new format to be added to the portal,
I think it should be art related tutorials with actual narration instead of a sped up video of someone drawing with some music on top.
I think Jazza's tutorials should be uploaded at least, to test the waters since they're of such high quality and people would really learn to improve from them!
I definitely like the idea of adding speed painting videos to the site, but I also see how it could add quite a bit to the already crowded UJ page. I mean, would most speed paintings even need to go through judgement? Seems a bit much. If they were filed under the art portal, it could simply be that only scouted people would be able to upload. Might keep poorly done/spam videos out of the way.
This could also be great for more audio portal integration, cause I know people generally like some audio while watching these things.
Overall, if it's done right, this could be an entirely positive aspect for the NG community.
It would be awesome to have a section where users could upload video tutorials or speed-whatevers for educational value
That would be such an amazing addition to the site.
Why not just support "Drawing Grounds"?
Or make a little app, sort of like chat. It would probably be neat, but aside from artists just wanting to see how others do their work, there's not much point in it.
And it's nice to leave the secrets to the magicians, all that matters is the end result trick.
That's a nifty idea, "tutorial portal" I've also thought about doing tutorials for simple things to do in digital artwork, like how to make decent looking bubbles, sky-lines, backgrounds, foregrounds and just all the little things that add that extra touch to an art-work
Add it to the Art submission form, under "This is not a sketch" and Creative Commons.
It can go into the Movies database, as a genre behind the scenes, but definitely surface it to users in the Art submission page.
Also you'd need to link to which art piece it was for, so you should do that in the same space that Movie pages have Soundtracks right now.
And obviously only for scouted artists so you don't get mega-spammed, but you already knew that.
Also PLEASE put an exclamation point or something on it so people notice there's new features.
At 8/16/13 01:31 PM, TomFulp wrote: YouTube just dangles a big carrot in front of them and they think they need to redirect all their internet fans there. Just make your damn Pokemon movie and soak up the search traffic like everyone else who wants to go big on YouTube.
This made me laugh so hard for some reason, holy shit.
I think it's funny because it's oh so true.
have them need to be scouted.. and each one manually approved.. have it like a fusion of art/movie portals.
this may filter out crappy speedpaintings.
Don't bother tieing it into the portal or voting system. Just have them be accessible, in order of Newest or Most Popular, from the left-hand side of the Art Portal where the genres are.
Maybe put a tiny white video-camera icon onto the thumbnails of art that has a video attached to it.
This is the most intuitive way to show this stuff to the people who're looking for it, or are most likely to be interested in it.
I say let people upload speedpaint.
It'll bring a lot of new traffic to the site and encourage creators to upload new content they normally couldn't.
Plus it's cool to see an artist's process.
I think it would be cool to have speedpaints on NG but at the same time I think it could become irritating to see the portal flooded. They probably should have their own category at least
I think the best solution would be put them in the Art Portal, but require them to be linked to an Art submission, so things stay organized and people don't just start uploading random stuff. Although I could understand people wanting to make speed paint videos for stuff they don't actually submit to the Art Portal, but I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.
Another thing that could help the video problem overall would be allowing users to upload videos of any kind to their account, like in the dump or something, and these videos could be embedded across the site. So if you wanted to post some wacky live-action thing you made, you could do it, it just wouldn't be in the movie portal.
Tom, why isn't this on the frontpage yet?
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As much as I love a good speed paint video, I don't believe they belong in the Flash portal. Considering the portal contains flash animations and things that people have worked hard on (story, character development or a good joke or two, etc), speed painting flash videos would be out of place on this site.
Why not take the best of both worlds? Take the resulting piece from a speed-painting video, submit it to the art portal, and then provide the link in the description to the actual video on YouTube or some other video site. Just my thoughts on it.
I'm all for it. I trust the scoring system to make sure the cream rises and the crap sinks. I'd probably make some. I do agree that it might make sense to categorize them and offer a way to filter though, if it gets too out of hand.
Word to your mother
At 8/16/13 12:41 PM, Asandir wrote: As for other artists? Post the best painting in the world and it doesn't even appear in the art portal. You have to make 3 more art pieces
If you're a decent artist it's highly likely you have 3 other decent art pieces to submit.
If you're an art thief it's likely the other 3 pieces will be from different people.
and even then you probably have to wait for a long time to get scouted.
There's a fair few users who farm the unscouted section for potential artists.
I have no idea where you came to the conclusion that it takes a long while for eligible people to be scouted?
When I look at the frontpaged art, then almost all are from already established artist that have been making art for years.
I'm struggling to put an answer to this, but here goes: I hope amateurs make pics that stand out and show that they are unique. They need the limelight too, yes, but I hope that the variety of artists, their skill levels and the variety of content comes across in MeowlaSS' front page archive.
Art, yes. Videos, no.
Speedpaints can be cool when done right, but they're not always done right. About 6 months ago, a guy submitted a "speedpaint" that was 28 minutes long. It was removed or I'd link it. But still, speedpaints, as cool as some are, they're not animation.
Newgrounds started as a site that hosted animations and games done in Flash. While the available software has expanded beyond Flash, the fact that this site caters exclusively to animation sets it apart from others.
Allowing more speedpaints by creating a place for them encourages more of them to come in. Separating the animation from the 'movies' is an option, but it opens the floodgates for massive abuse.
I fear that the animations that people worked hard on, and were the core and heart of Newgrounds, would be eclipsed by the sheer volume of the videos that people didn't. Examples?
A child with a video camera can be a dangerous thing. When one sees this, someday, another will want to "do that too." With the automated system here on newgrounds, the constraints can easily be missed, and then abuse happens. (Yes, the file size and run-time you saw are correct.)
For every video submitted, there's that danger that someone will decide to copy them. That's great with flash. Yes, PLEASE come join us in making GOOD animations. They don't have to be perfect, but we can tell if you tried and if you didn't. I'd MUCH rather see a submission that's still not perfect, but he keeps improving and trying, than to see anything from a bored kid with a camera. (BTW, that's a 'speedpaint' ...er, speed-draw..?)
Youtube accepts everything, and that's why we avoid it and spend so much of our lives here on Newgrounds. Opening the door to more videos opens the door to "Newgrounds" becoming "Newtube," and hard working animators' works being mixed in with those who didn't, those who don't, and those who can't.