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So i had an interesting conversation with some friends of mine at my university. It was civilized and we both expressed our concerns on the issue and accepted we had differing beliefs. He is a devoted christian who is not ignorant to what is going on in science and the common traits of his beliefs are easily summed up.

This thread is intended for people with some spiritual beliefs period. If you are not spiritual please your input is accepted but please don't be rude or ignorant to others and try to be respectful to everyone who contributes. All beliefs are welcome but please try to stay civilized. Even athiests have a right to speak their mind. Me myself, i am agnostic.

He thinks vaccines and things that manipulate our biological systems are sins against god. That we should be careful on how we go about creating these things and that using them is even more problematic. But he doesn't think its a good idea to simply stop pursuing science.

For those of you who don't now, (its all over youtube now). There is a renown theoretical physicist named Michio Kaku. He is trying to prove that String theory is a fact. Well string theory states that our universe is inter-connected with milliions of universes stringed together where everything about every universe can be similair or polar opposites.

Michio kaku was able to prove that most of String Theory is a fact and parts of string theory is know known as a scientific fact. There are more interesting topics that you can research known as quantum mechanics and other various things in physics.

Well all these concepts are really really crazy. Well here is the thing it is possible to actually time-travel. We would need to harness the power of a black-hole. With the power of a black-hole we would indeed be able to theoretically travel faster than the speed of light. If we do this in our own universe, we would disrupt time itself and go into the past. But the problem is, it is impossible to change the future of our own universe if we time travel to the past. If we do indeed time travel to the past and change ANYTHING WHATSOEVER (even the smallest partical moving out of place) that instance of the universe will veere off into a whole new universe creating a parallel universe.

So the only way that "future beings" can ever time travel into our universe, is if there was a parallel universe next to us that had higher technology then us, and they traveled to our universe. To them, it would be like going back in time to a more primitive state. But in reality its the same timeframe as they currently were at, there society just advanced at a quicker pace then ours.

A few other scientific things going on in the world that you may or may not know about is, aligators and crocodiles have no definite life-span. They just get bigger and bigger and bigger. The problems they face is the fact eventually these animals get so big that can't eat enough food to stay alive and support their biological systems. Well there may indeed be a possible connection with this and our own biological systems. Maybe in the future we will discover vaccines we can inject at birth and moderate through years that make us have the ability to not die based on time constraints.

Instead all we would have to worry about is death by conventional means such as disease, natural disaster, weapons etc etc etc. If you think about it majority of society doesn't even make it to age 100. So, whether we live forever or not it would be very difficult to life forever. Then our bodies will be so unproductive that at some certain extent it may be impossible to move our bodies.

But science can also potentially improve that.

Well my friend doesn't like these ideas and things going on in science. He says scientists are trying to be like god. If we continue down this path and try to recreate life itself (which is another scientific discovery going on btw) not only that but we are trying to create our own universes?

He thinks god will have his vengance one day as he did before. He also thinks that eventually god will punish the world and never let us exist again. Well my thoughts are, maybe the previous people who tempted gods rights discovered a path directed for the devil. God saw potential horror so he decided to stop it before it began.

Maybe the pervious people attempting this science weren't ready for the responsiblity it entitles.

Thats my thoughts.

If you like, you can engage in this. But please as i stated earlier, please respect peoples beliefs and religions even if it against your own. If you don't then please try not to post.

You should tell your friend that it was someone who worked for the Vatican who discovered the Big Bang theory, and another person who helped worked on the scientific method, and yet another who is considered to be the father of modern genetics. If those people were not just religious, but worked for a religious institution, it should be good enough in God's eyes.

I always thought this "religion v. science" topic constantly attracts people who lack an understanding of Theology and occasionally science. It's important to step back and point out that at one point science and religion were the same thing especially in the times of the Ancient Greeks. This is why the Monasteries preserved so much knowledge. So I really doubt this "they're trying to become like God" notion is relevant although I think the story of the Tower of Babel may implicate that (but if that were the case then God would've destroyed our civilizations by now since we've made it to the moon). I guess what I'm trying to say is that people perceive them to be opposing forces rather than complimentary allies who disagree on certain topics.

Yes some good points brought up.

Well for those of you who don't know (i like this theory) there is a theory that points out that the creation of religion is meerly just the fear of the unknown. Man-kind looked at the world around it and was so scared about everything they needed answers for what exsisted. So they started developing concepts of a higher being (as that was the only rational idea at the time). Then human beings started out with not christianity, but concepts inside mythologies.

So if you take that into mind, science is indeed the same thing.

As for connecting science development and how people actually view religion and what my friend was saying. Its ok to do science, its not ok to dabble in areas we are not supposed to.

Remember, all becase you acheive something and its good in your lifetime. if it ruins someone elses lifetime, you are still at fault for it. It is still YOUR sin. So when you create these vaccines, you get all the sins it creates to all the people it harms if it harms anyone at all.

As for the whole having neurological quirks and all i mean yea we are all unique and there are things going on in us that are simply unpredictable. We don't understand how we operate nor will we understand anytime soon.

But the topic still stands and is what we should take in consideration. Ways to view this are is we are all beings fighting for survival and evolution takes its place and occurs on a regular basis. Whether or not religion stays in society will be determined in the future. But the teachings you get from it, the lessons you learn and the people your around is an incredible thing. I don't think religion will ever be replaced, just rewritten.

I asked similair questions to him.

Basically hes saying that as long as you are doing your actions without the intent of the devil. It is indeed a fine action by god.

For instance, if your drive to achieve science is driven by your own personal image and gain then thats thoughts of lucifer and god himself planting his seeds into the world. The devil is smart and hides things for us and not only that but he gives us abilities we think is good to trick us and mis-guide us from the lord.

Its more than just doing good. But thinking carefully and being cautious of the devil and the various things he could plant for us to abuse.

They also stressed highly that god does not care about your good deeds. He doesn't care how many lives you sell or what you do in life. All he cares is that you live under his grace, those who think their good deeds will get them into heaven. Are the ones who go to hell.

nah its on topic. It all relates.

I have never read the bible. I personally think its just faulty words written by people who don't truly understand what they are writing. So i kinda just ask people who read it themself and get their interpretations instead.

At 6/23/13 12:48 PM, PMMurphy wrote: nah its on topic. It all relates.

I have never read the bible. I personally think its just faulty words written by people who don't truly understand what they are writing. So i kinda just ask people who read it themself and get their interpretations instead.

Don't worry, your friend hasn't read the bible either.
Like 99.99% of religious people. They all say it's the most important book of all time, but none of them actually read it.

That gives you some idea of how seriously to take them lol.

may be true, My friend was agnostic and just renounced his religion very recently.

Maybe he hasn't studied it enough yet.

At 6/23/13 12:48 PM, PMMurphy wrote: nah its on topic. It all relates.

I have never read the bible. I personally think its just faulty words written by people who don't truly understand what they are writing. So i kinda just ask people who read it themself and get their interpretations instead.

There's the problem of translations as well, especially since older translations aren't as accurate since the quality control for translations was pretty bad. But it doesn't necessarily mean that everything bad is a mistranslation or misinterpretation. But the vast majority of the Bible is a dense and at times incredibly pointless read (by dense I mean each page has as many words packed into it in the smallest readable font and so when you have 4 pages literally describing a lavish courthouse to be built it's really detrimental to the overarching point) that has little insight to what you want to look for i.e. science v. religion, abortion, birth control etc.

yea i understand the whole "if you get information down the gripe vine you get refiled crap instead of the truth".

But thats how i go about doing it. The writing done in the bible is so boring.....

Yea i know but my excuse is im not majoring in religion nor am i a preacher :)

also something to take into consideration. All because you read something yourself and know he knowledge yourself. Sometimes knowledge and education can block you from better more logical solutions. Because your background makes you blind of the simple truth as your always looking for the complicated route.

Or is it? :)

Sometimes you need someone without a hammer to help you think of the solution. Because your to preoccupied with finding a way around it.

Its like being a car mechanic all day an dthinking "how can i make this engine faster" and a three year old says. "why not just make it smaller"

Does the 3 year old understand what he just said. No.

But it indeed may provoke a new discovery you may or may not of thought of at that given time to ultimately reach your objective and solution.

you win!

I have no arguement. This is rare coming from me.

At 6/23/13 01:49 PM, PMMurphy wrote: may be true, My friend was agnostic and just renounced his religion very recently.

Maybe he hasn't studied it enough yet.

Statistically speaking though, atheists and agnostics are more likely to be knowledgeable about religion compared to people who identify themselves as being religious.

Which if you really think about that statement with statistics it makes alot of sense.

In order to call yourself athiest or agnostic you should have some strong reasons for doing so. Which would mean you would need to have read more details and questioned more things. You would also be more inclined to question other peoples beliefs of their religions and on top of this you would read into it more just to prove they are wrong because your doubts are so strongly against it.

Psychology would play a huge factor on that statistic if you think about it.

It's a pretty neat idea.

whether 'theories' concerning the existence of multiple universes, the possiblity of time travel, etc... are scientific or not is debatable. those 'crazy ideas' are only motivated by mathematical arguments and are not falsifiable. they are usually not considered as part of the mainstream science.

actually most scientists are pretty humble and down to earth. they are not pretending to be god. rather, they try to create mathematical models that are internally consistent and agree with physical observations. typically, they propse theories can be tested in laboratory settings, and whenever they discover their theories do not match the experimental data, they usually reject those ideas happily. whenever they cannot find a satisfactory model that explains some phenonmon, scientists admit nature is smarter than them. scientists formulate those models out of natural curiousity, but not out of egotism or superiority.

i think you friend is confusing normal scientists with crackpots, who hold unshakable belief that their ideas must be correct and their 'models' can explain the entire universe, even in the face of empircal evidence.

yea your right.

But those theories about the universes are starting to become more accurate. We are slowly discovering they are indeed factual. To the exact of how factual is to be determined. I currently do research at my university so i know how the whole research environment works.

Also, even scientists will have skewwed results sometimes. It all depends on who funds there projects or who wants/doesn't want that information to go public.

Even scientists can do really bad things in a research lab because they are put in situations in life where no matter what they do only bad can result.

Scientists fabricate and change their results on purpose all the time. They do it so they don't piss people off or get murdered and shit like that.

Then when they get caught for farbriaction they lose their careers.

It's a toss up.

At 6/22/13 01:14 PM, PMMurphy wrote: He thinks vaccines and things that manipulate our biological systems are sins against god. That we should be careful on how we go about creating these things and that using them is even more problematic. But he doesn't think its a good idea to simply stop pursuing science.

Isn't anything that makes us the creators an imitation of God? Making clothes to cover our naked bodies, damming a river to make a lake, altering landscapes for agriculture, breeding tiny dogs that can't reproduce without artificial insemination, etc.

You want to know some other things that manipulate our biological systems? Every medication in existence. I don't see the line between vaccines and aspirin. They're both foreign elements that are introduced to our bodies to achieve a certain result.

Yet I would presume that none of those things bother your friend.

hahaha And your assumption would be completely correct.

I asked him, he said he saw no problem with medications. Just vaccines.

I even asked him if he was ok with getting a polio shot, and he said that it was his parents misjudgement for getting it and that he would of never got it himself if he had the ability to choose to.

At 6/25/13 10:39 PM, PMMurphy wrote: I even asked him if he was ok with getting a polio shot, and he said that it was his parents misjudgement for getting it and that he would of never got it himself if he had the ability to choose to.

Sounds like it has less to do with religion and more to do with him being afraid of vaccines then lol

I don't really understand why he would turn down a medication that's been around since the 50s and practically wiped out Polio in the developed world, unless he wants to get Polio or something.

yea i know.

But you have to take in consideration that often times people who get thrown into religions are not doing so well in their lives. THey have no hope no direction, people in these churches pick them up off their feet. Somtimes they feed them, give them shelter, befriend them. They help them out for who knows what, and they teach them good lessons that indeed help their lives. SO they often grow very very strong bonds with religion.

So its understandable.

Bro when i signed up to do scientific research during my orientation they told us scientists fabricate on a regular basis and told us why.