Self voting and its damages.

[LazyBucks]

Sorry in advance if this thread goes against the audio forums rules, but I'd just like to voice my opinion on the matter.

The topic of self voting is one that gets knocked around the Newgrounds community quite a bit on both the forums and on the various skype groups. Most regulars are no strangers to this topic but I think its about time its addressed, or at least addressed for the audio portal.

There is a very easy and sure fire way to fix all of the issues I am about to talk about but the powers that be are worried that this "fix" will deter people away from voting which in itself should speak volumes about this community.
Anyway...

The audio portal suffers greatly from self voting. I am not saying I do not self vote, however I only ever self vote on two occasions. The first is when I upload a song, I always give myself a 5 stars to get the ball rolling. The second time is to combat a blatant 0 bomb. In the morning my song might be on 4.5/5 with 3 votes, then laters its down in the 2 area with only 1 new vote, a sign that you have been bombed and thus I will 5 star myself again to combat it. I however do not and have not ever given myself daily 5 stars for the sake of it, which a LOT of you do.
Denying it is beyond pointless because its incredibly easy to spot and gets more evident when you suddenly have multiple songs in the "Best of the Month/Year" section. Whereas I am sure your songs are great and deserve praise, when they actively receive no new downloads or reviews but 3 months later pop up in the best of month/year category with similar scores and votes, its not hard to spot a self voter.

Now there are some famous self voters who perhaps think what they do is going unnoticed, but again the same few names pop up on a monthly basis and all their works have the same vote amounts usually so it really isn't hard to spot you guys.

Now how does this damage the audio portal? Simple, you effectively steal exposure from people who deserve it more. A popular song that gets noticed can quite easily be beaten down by a song that isn't getting a lot of notice but is getting regular 5s from its author and a friend.
What this does is forces the same collection of people into the spotlight on a regular basis and newer musicians or long time musicians who don't self vote find it difficult to get noticed.

Now the "Popular Audio" section of the audio portal is determined by views. If you can get 300+ views in your first week of a upload you will usually break into that list for a while. But the "Best of Month/Year" lists are determined by ratings, because its always the exact same people appearing there.

I won't name and shame people but I'll give you a example from the best of month right now shall I?
219 Plays, 11 Downloads, 4.59 stars (59 votes)
Not exactly what I'd call best of the month, other songs from that same unnamed user?
57 votes, 54 votes, 63 votes, 61 votes, 59 votes.
Thats either a very obvious self voter who a very odd coincidence.

The solution to self voters is clear, you make it so you have to review when you vote. This stops anom 0 bombers and forces people to write a little review if they want to rate.
Why there is two ratings for a song, one being the review stars and the other being normal rating is beyond me...
Why haven't these two been merged yet?

Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinions on the matter, and to the big time self voters who I actively watch...cut it out and give others a chance.

Thanks.
LazyBucks

[Kirbyfemur]

The problem has never been self-voting, it has been the 0-bomb trolls for year. Because the audio portal has always been a separate entity from the flash portal, and because voting on the audio tracks had no real incentive into voting on them (other than out of the goodness of peoples hearts) all there is left sometimes is the creator and the 0-bomb trolls. It takes time and patience to get more views and listens, and a little dumb luck doesn't hurt either. I once had a track get into the top 30 thing (back when that was a thing) and it was a track from years before that i hadn't done anything with. The other issue is fanbase, and 5 spamming through actual illicit means. Nearly no one here has become famous through simply 5-voting themselves every day, it takes a few more hands to do that. Trust me, I 5-voted myself for years and it only helped in getting me 3-4 more reviews (out of a total of less than 20-30 mind you)

[Lachi]

so actually
is there still people who cares about voting?

ive been following this site for like 6-7 years who the fuck cares about votes, only reviews (the true ones) count.

[gridcrawler]

Without self-voting nobody would even find out my music at all. Self-voting is an important self-saving tool for noobs. Of course, you wouldn't need it (and blame it) since you are not noob. Put yourself in our shoes plz.

[LazyBucks]

At 6/15/13 01:04 PM, gridcrawler wrote: Without self-voting nobody would even find out my music at all. Self-voting is an important self-saving tool for noobs. Of course, you wouldn't need it (and blame it) since you are not noob. Put yourself in our shoes plz.

"Noob"? Do people actually bring that kind of terminology into music?

"since you are not noob", who said I wasn't? I am in no way a recognizable musician in any regard so in no way am I looking down on anyone. Self voting helps no one, it only favors those who do it enough and though you think it will help /you/ get noticed it won't, because there are people who will do it more then you and don't deserve the attention.

[gridcrawler]

At 6/15/13 01:12 PM, LazyBucks wrote:

At 6/15/13 01:04 PM, gridcrawler wrote: Without self-voting nobody would even find out my music at all. Self-voting is an important self-saving tool for noobs. Of course, you wouldn't need it (and blame it) since you are not noob. Put yourself in our shoes plz.

"Noob"? Do people actually bring that kind of terminology into music?

And who decide what not to use in music terminology?

"since you are not noob", who said I wasn't? I am in no way a recognizable musician in any regard so in no way am I looking down on anyone. Self voting helps no one, it only favors those who do it enough and though you think it will help /you/ get noticed it won't, because there are people who will do it more then you and don't deserve the attention.

I consider myself a noob bases on the amount of success and popular I am getting. But I respect whatever suits your point of view.

Just like you my friend, I don't abuse the power. But I can't blame it since I know self-voting will benefit new users more than other old SOBs do. You should swallow the hates and let the good wills dominate your mind.

And best, swallow your jealousy.

[LazyBucks]

At 6/15/13 01:20 PM, gridcrawler wrote:

At 6/15/13 01:12 PM, LazyBucks wrote:

At 6/15/13 01:04 PM, gridcrawler wrote: Without self-voting nobody would even find out my music at all. Self-voting is an important self-saving tool for noobs. Of course, you wouldn't need it (and blame it) since you are not noob. Put yourself in our shoes plz.

"Noob"? Do people actually bring that kind of terminology into music?

And who decide what not to use in music terminology?

"since you are not noob", who said I wasn't? I am in no way a recognizable musician in any regard so in no way am I looking down on anyone. Self voting helps no one, it only favors those who do it enough and though you think it will help /you/ get noticed it won't, because there are people who will do it more then you and don't deserve the attention.

I consider myself a noob bases on the amount of success and popular I am getting. But I respect whatever suits your point of view.

Just like you my friend, I don't abuse the power. But I can't blame it since I know self-voting will benefit new users more than other old SOBs do. You should swallow the hates and let the good wills dominate your mind.

And best, swallow your jealousy.

This thread is in no way related to jealousy. I don't upload enough to even warrant attention from fans so I can ensure you this has nothing to do with jealousy.

If anything its more about me sick seeing the same 3 or 4 guys sitting in the "Best of" categories when their music is sub par but they are always there because they just self vote themselves on a regular basis.

[gridcrawler]

You could... If you can't win, join them.

Or just... The only way to win is not to fight.

[xIIInon]

It is allowed to self-vote here? о_Ðz
Now I feel really-really awkward. And puzzled - why would I vote for my own work with less than the highest possible mark then? It's not the right way to fight zero-voters...

[TroisNyxEtienne]

At 6/15/13 01:20 PM, gridcrawler wrote:

At 6/15/13 01:12 PM, LazyBucks wrote:

At 6/15/13 01:04 PM, gridcrawler wrote: Without self-voting nobody would even find out my music at all. Self-voting is an important self-saving tool for noobs. Of course, you wouldn't need it (and blame it) since you are not noob. Put yourself in our shoes plz.

"Noob"? Do people actually bring that kind of terminology into music?

And who decide what not to use in music terminology?

Ultimately the good, cultured composers do. And 'noob' only makes them look like a noob, it only makes them NOT warrant any form of attention whatsoever.

"since you are not noob", who said I wasn't? I am in no way a recognizable musician in any regard so in no way am I looking down on anyone. Self voting helps no one, it only favors those who do it enough and though you think it will help /you/ get noticed it won't, because there are people who will do it more then you and don't deserve the attention.

I consider myself a noob bases on the amount of success and popular I am getting. But I respect whatever suits your point of view.

Just like you my friend, I don't abuse the power. But I can't blame it since I know self-voting will benefit new users more than other old SOBs do. You should swallow the hates and let the good wills dominate your mind.

And best, swallow your jealousy.

For the record, when I started here, I got quite a decent amount of listeners. Whether or not it was because of Sorohanro recommending me, I do not know. But my first track, Westminster Tune / Preuve de foi was my top track in 2011 for a time... just look at the amount of downloads it's had to date. I used to five-vote myself on the basis that if I wasn't visible in the charts, I wouldn't be known.

But how you are known is NOT through the charts, because people oftentimes don't care. How you are known, rather, is through your participation in contests, Game Jams, projects, and the community.

I see you're getting really green-eyed out of rage now that you had to bring up jealousy... Hahahahaha. Doesn't surprise me even one bit. In fact, it only shows just how much you have to learn.

[TacoMilagroIII]

I don't know that it would necessarily be because of self voting. The long stay at the top, I mean. Soundcloud is the same way sometimes, and there's no voting structure there. There are likes, but I don't think that registers in popularity. Sometimes people just get it right and the steady flow of new listeners maintains the audience that's needed to keep a track on the top. I could be wrong though. It could be sheer douchebaggery. At any rate, I don't self vote. To me that would make it feel like a hollow victory to have a high rating. Instead I just spam the ever loving shit out of my soundcloud. That's how I get my jollies. It's all advertising though, in my opinion.

[Emid]

Strange! Recently I emailed the very concern of self and zero voting to one of NG's senior member and found it out to be an old syndrome prevailing here. I tend to agree with the damage caused by zero voting. I can't imagine voting myself as my vote has nothing to do with the interest of the audience. What I understand is the sequence is like this: zero voting your's, then self-voting mine and I am some ladders up to gain listeners, hence reviews or downloads. May be am wrong in my calculation so correct me please.

[midimachine]

i self vote sometimes and it doesn't do shit lol