Choir VST's - tips and advice

[TitanMusic]

Hi,

I am struggling slightly(an understatement) with working choirs and solo singers(Forgotten voices etc) into my music.
More often than not the choir sounds "okay" but this is not what I am looking for.

So,
Any editing, mixing & mastering or general composition advice for choirs?

I am using 8dio Requim light, East West Symphonic Choirs and Forgotten Voices-Francesca.

Thanks.

[Bspendlove]

I use Symphonic Choirs and it sounds great and exactly what I need!

A lot of people I have talked to about getting a great sound is because their lack of Harmony and Choir writing!!

I would give a lecture about Harmony and Choir writing if you want? Haha..

I am not saying your harmony is bad at all! but you can achieve a lot if you take some time to find out new stuff about the VSTs...

I would say use different articulations and think a lot about the dynamics with choirs! you do not want all your dynamics of each note the same otherwise it will give it no colour...

If you need any help with choir writing give me another message!

At 6/12/13 03:33 PM, TitanMusic wrote: I am struggling slightly(an understatement) with working choirs and solo singers(Forgotten voices etc) into my music.
More often than not the choir sounds "okay" but this is not what I am looking for.

[Lachi]

are you looking for choirs as in pads or what?
take a look at GalactiX it has some really cool choir sounds.

also M1 vst

[TitanMusic]

At 6/12/13 04:01 PM, Bspendlove wrote: I use Symphonic Choirs and it sounds great and exactly what I need!

A lot of people I have talked to about getting a great sound is because their lack of Harmony and Choir writing!!

I would give a lecture about Harmony and Choir writing if you want? Haha..

I am not saying your harmony is bad at all! but you can achieve a lot if you take some time to find out new stuff about the VSTs...

I would say use different articulations and think a lot about the dynamics with choirs! you do not want all your dynamics of each note the same otherwise it will give it no colour...

If you need any help with choir writing give me another message!

At 6/12/13 03:33 PM, TitanMusic wrote: I am struggling slightly(an understatement) with working choirs and solo singers(Forgotten voices etc) into my music.
More often than not the choir sounds "okay" but this is not what I am looking for.

I think you might be right. It always seems that the choir and the strings aren't well suited and usually results in the choir becoming background noise rather than the driving force behind a song. I think this might also be due to my inexperience in postproduction. I don't really know how to go about mixing or editing a track with a large choral influence in it.
-How much reverb or after effects is too much?

I guess at the end of the day practice makes perfect but its just annoying when I have all these "songs" in my head.

[TitanMusic]

At 6/12/13 04:01 PM, Lachi wrote: are you looking for choirs as in pads or what?
take a look at GalactiX it has some really cool choir sounds.

also M1 vst

Well, I have the choirs I just need advice on how to utilize them properly. Its usually fine when the choir is just to help boost the song and each note is normally a full bar but when it gets to staccato...well thats another story.

[Bspendlove]

At 6/12/13 04:17 PM, TitanMusic wrote: I think you might be right. It always seems that the choir and the strings aren't well suited and usually results in the choir becoming background noise rather than the driving force behind a song. I think this might also be due to my inexperience in postproduction. I don't really know how to go about mixing or editing a track with a large choral influence in it.
-How much reverb or after effects is too much?

I guess at the end of the day practice makes perfect but its just annoying when I have all these "songs" in my head.

I know how you feel! Every song I compose sounds better in my head, some day you might notice that you actually got every detail out of your head, onto some sheet or on the computer!

A lot of the postproduction stuff can seriously be achieved from learning all the effects, what each parameter does, what they all do individually.. I would say mixing does improve a composition a lot...

I started to learn mixing after 2 years into composition and the outcomes on just one instrument can make the whole piece sound stronger!

What strings are you using??

[TitanMusic]

I started to learn mixing after 2 years into composition and the outcomes on just one instrument can make the whole piece sound stronger!

What strings are you using?

I started leaning two days ago so I have a long way to go! I already noticed the difference it can make though. I am using Miroslav Philharmonik and Symphobia 2. What are you using?

[Bspendlove]

At 6/12/13 04:29 PM, TitanMusic wrote: I started leaning two days ago so I have a long way to go! I already noticed the difference it can make though. I am using Miroslav Philharmonik and Symphobia 2. What are you using?

I used to use Philharmonik until I got Symphonic Orchestra and LASS, I personally do not like Philharmonik now, but I have heard Symphobia and have always wanted to try that out! Is it worth the money?? Thinking about saving some cash up to buy it!

[TitanMusic]

At 6/12/13 04:35 PM, Bspendlove wrote:

At 6/12/13 04:29 PM, TitanMusic wrote: I started leaning two days ago so I have a long way to go! I already noticed the difference it can make though. I am using Miroslav Philharmonik and Symphobia 2. What are you using?

I used to use Philharmonik until I got Symphonic Orchestra and LASS, I personally do not like Philharmonik now, but I have heard Symphobia and have always wanted to try that out! Is it worth the money?? Thinking about saving some cash up to buy it!

Its got some really cool sound effects but the strings can be quite limited. If you have the cash to spare I would go for it. Im trying to save up for 8dio Requim Pro..Some of the best choir stuff I have heard but its way out of my price range at the moment.

[sorohanro]

Just to add my input:
@TitanMusic - I listened to some of your music and I hear some things that I might do different. The problem might not be the lack of libraries or quality of choir sounds but more like a lack of experience with real orchestra. Some of your sounds stick out the mix (one guitar is louder that whole strings section, some metal percussion doesn't blend with the rest of the orchestra...), some things are way too loud (percussion in some places is clipping or sounds over saturated).
If you try to emulate a real orchestra with acoustic instruments, then you just have to balance things a bit different. 20-30 violins should sound thicker and louder than one guitar, one voice soloist should not cover a whole choir or orchestra...etc.
Best thing to do, go listen some real orchestras live or "sneak in" while rehearsals and try to emulate in your mix the position of instruments ( panning + reverb).
Also, if you're using Miroslav together with another library, you can use it as "stage microphone" to thicken up things.

@Bspendlove - if you try to save some money, there are some free and cheap libraries to help:
Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra - a free SFZ library
Papelmedia GS SoundFont SF2 - some useful instruments there (trombones sounds quite good and the choir is one of the best free)
Vowel Ensemble Choir Pack - a free choir library with morphing vowels capability

[TheBenjerman]

At 6/12/13 07:45 PM, sorohanro wrote: Great stuff

1st of all, listen to sorohanro. 2nd of all, using a virtual choir to try to sound like a live choir is a great exercise, but when you get right down to it, a virtual choir is not a real choir, and if you want your production value to be as strong as possible, you'll need to treat it as such.

Using full-choir patches and then adding individual sections into the mix until you have the balance you want is a good way to start mixing. That way your foundation is solid, and you don't have to worry as much about getting a good balance with sections that sound good on their own, rather than with each other.

Figure out the strong suits of each section of your choir library. If your sopranos sound like crap when they are low, move those parts to the altos. If the basses sound good when they are high, take advantage of that.

Knowing how to write for a live choir definitely helps a lot, but doesn't guarantee you can mock it up with fake voices, just like being able to use a choir patch doesn't mean you can actually write for choir (just ask a session singer). Do what sounds good in the medium you are using, and then see what you can take from the live side of things.

Have fun!

[PascalPalomino]

Just an idea. Might be a great exercise to do mock ups of Bach's choir. They are quite simple and very well written. Your Library seems amazing.

[gridcrawler]

I didn't know Forgotten Voices: Francesca (FVF). It is truly epic. I'm using Tonehammer Liberis and Requiem. FVF is more like chant collection, similar to Liberis and EW/QL Voices of Passion.

At 6/12/13 04:01 PM, Bspendlove wrote: I use Symphonic Choirs and it sounds great and exactly what I need!

It's the best choir VST out there. The only downside is the CPU level.

[TitanMusic]

At 6/12/13 07:45 PM, sorohanro wrote: Just to add my input:
@TitanMusic - I listened to some of your music and I hear some things that I might do different. The problem might not be the lack of libraries or quality of choir sounds but more like a lack of experience with real orchestra. Some of your sounds stick out the mix (one guitar is louder that whole strings section, some metal percussion doesn't blend with the rest of the orchestra...), some things are way too loud (percussion in some places is clipping or sounds over saturated).
If you try to emulate a real orchestra with acoustic instruments, then you just have to balance things a bit different. 20-30 violins should sound thicker and louder than one guitar, one voice soloist should not cover a whole choir or orchestra...etc.
Best thing to do, go listen some real orchestras live or "sneak in" while rehearsals and try to emulate in your mix the position of instruments ( panning + reverb).
Also, if you're using Miroslav together with another library, you can use it as "stage microphone" to thicken up things.

@Bspendlove - if you try to save some money, there are some free and cheap libraries to help:
Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra - a free SFZ library
Papelmedia GS SoundFont SF2 - some useful instruments there (trombones sounds quite good and the choir is one of the best free)
Vowel Ensemble Choir Pack - a free choir library with morphing vowels capability

Thanks for the crit, its rather helpful. I definitely agree that it is my inexperience with the sounds I am working with. The tracks I have uploaded are my first foray into "trailer music" so I am still getting used to the style (but that is no excuse). With regards to the realism of the sounds I am working with, I am not trying to create the most realistic sounding pieces, as long as it sounds reasonably realistic, but rather create what I consider to be "epic" pieces. I go and watch my local orchestra any chance I can (The Cape Philharmonic) and I do learn from it but obviously not enough quick enough. My mixing and mastering is atrocious haha but I have only been doing it for the last 3 or so days.

Thanks again for the crit, I will definitely look through it again next time I work on a track.

[TitanMusic]

At 6/13/13 03:49 AM, gridcrawler wrote: I didn't know Forgotten Voices: Francesca (FVF). It is truly epic. I'm using Tonehammer Liberis and Requiem. FVF is more like chant collection, similar to Liberis and EW/QL Voices of Passion.

At 6/12/13 04:01 PM, Bspendlove wrote: I use Symphonic Choirs and it sounds great and exactly what I need!

It's the best choir VST out there. The only downside is the CPU level.

And the price! I can't afford Requiem and I don't know how long its going to be until I can haha. I love FVF but I still need to get the hang of utilizing it in my songs.

[TitanMusic]

At 6/12/13 10:34 PM, PascalPalomino wrote: Just an idea. Might be a great exercise to do mock ups of Bach's choir. They are quite simple and very well written. Your Library seems amazing.

I am going to practice working solely on choirs for the day and see what that gets me. Thanks for the tip and yes my library is pretty cool I just need to use it properly haha.

[TitanMusic]

At 6/12/13 08:54 PM, TheBenjerman wrote:

At 6/12/13 07:45 PM, sorohanro wrote: Great stuff

1st of all, listen to sorohanro. 2nd of all, using a virtual choir to try to sound like a live choir is a great exercise, but when you get right down to it, a virtual choir is not a real choir, and if you want your production value to be as strong as possible, you'll need to treat it as such.

Using full-choir patches and then adding individual sections into the mix until you have the balance you want is a good way to start mixing. That way your foundation is solid, and you don't have to worry as much about getting a good balance with sections that sound good on their own, rather than with each other.

Figure out the strong suits of each section of your choir library. If your sopranos sound like crap when they are low, move those parts to the altos. If the basses sound good when they are high, take advantage of that.

Knowing how to write for a live choir definitely helps a lot, but doesn't guarantee you can mock it up with fake voices, just like being able to use a choir patch doesn't mean you can actually write for choir (just ask a session singer). Do what sounds good in the medium you are using, and then see what you can take from the live side of things.

Have fun!

Thanks! Yeah I realise I better start working with each plug in until I know it inside and out and, by then, I should know how to use it the most effectively. I have never been great with vst's but I am sure I will get the hang of it with enough practice and the right advice so thank you.

[sorohanro]

Don't get yourself down because of the prices of some libraries. You can achieve similar results "on the cheap side".
With the Papelmedia choir, Vowel Ensemble library (for Kontakt and MuLab, so you're not linked to just one expensive sampler but have a choice of a free one) you may get pretty good results.
If you can afford 19$ you can get the Olympus Micro which is pretty powerful despite of it's size.

[gridcrawler]

When I first start out on music. All I got was Magnus Choir.

[gridcrawler]

At 6/13/13 07:12 AM, TitanMusic wrote: And the price! I can't afford Requiem and I don't know how long its going to be until I can haha. I love FVF but I still need to get the hang of utilizing it in my songs.

Well, actually, do not get Requiem. Go for Voxos.

[TitanMusic]

At 6/13/13 11:08 AM, gridcrawler wrote: When I first start out on music. All I got was Magnus Choir.

I started with the VST's that came with Reason. It was horrible haha

[TitanMusic]

At 6/13/13 11:25 AM, gridcrawler wrote:

At 6/13/13 07:12 AM, TitanMusic wrote: And the price! I can't afford Requiem and I don't know how long its going to be until I can haha. I love FVF but I still need to get the hang of utilizing it in my songs.

Well, actually, do not get Requiem. Go for Voxos.

Thanks for the tip, I will definitely check it out

[Braiton]

At 6/13/13 11:25 AM, gridcrawler wrote:

At 6/13/13 07:12 AM, TitanMusic wrote: And the price! I can't afford Requiem and I don't know how long its going to be until I can haha. I love FVF but I still need to get the hang of utilizing it in my songs.

Well, actually, do not get Requiem. Go for Voxos.

Voxos is much more expensive than Requiem though.

[gridcrawler]

At 6/13/13 12:52 PM, Braiton wrote:

At 6/13/13 11:25 AM, gridcrawler wrote:

At 6/13/13 07:12 AM, TitanMusic wrote:

Voxos is much more expensive than Requiem though.

Voxos worth more than Liberis and Requiem added together

[JJM121]

I've only been using one of the choir soundfonts that I've found a long time again in one of the threads in the Audio Forum (I've used it a lot in my songs). With good tweaking and mixing, you really can get good use out of a few soundfonts and you don't necessarily need a VST.

But variety is always good.

[TitanMusic]

At 6/14/13 03:10 AM, JJM121 wrote: I've only been using one of the choir soundfonts that I've found a long time again in one of the threads in the Audio Forum (I've used it a lot in my songs). With good tweaking and mixing, you really can get good use out of a few soundfonts and you don't necessarily need a VST.

But variety is always good.

I just need to find that one sample that feels right for me then haha. But yes, I need to work on "tweaking" and mixing for these things before I can use choirs properly