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What are the reasons that the Fed should NOT be audited? For all those people who think I just insult folks on the board, I am going to make a concerted effort to have a meaningful discussion here. Hope you do the same.

Let's talk Fed.

At 6/7/13 11:48 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Easy answer Fire the assholes and make the Fed part of the Treasury Department therefore it gets audited annually.

Great, but the Fed is private and doesn't answer to the government, so they can't be fired except by forcible action. The only leverage the government has over the Fed is the armed forces. Will the government ever separate themselves from their banker friends enough to turn the army on them? Probably not.

It's up to the people to write in candidates for national elections with that item on their agenda. I for one will be writing in Rand Paul during the next Presidential election. Fuck Hillary right in the ear. I actually think if Chris Christie runs he has enough integrity to stand up to the Fed; however, he might not consider that important.

I'm all for it. My only qualm here is a cost benefit analysis. How much good would come from auditing a semi-governmental organization? I know it would cost an extreme amount ofmoney as the Fed is a behemoth. Would an audit of an organization that is still partially part of the government accomplish anything to justify the massive expense?

At 6/7/13 03:25 PM, Poniiboi wrote: Great, but the Fed is private and doesn't answer to the government, so they can't be fired except by forcible action.

Actually, as an economic entity that exists over all state border Congress has a great deal of power to control it under the Commerce Clause. Not to mention the Fed gets huge subsidies from the government, thus allowing the Tax and Spend clause to govern. This doesn't even include the coining money clause, or the necessary and proper clause. Congress has very strong power to govern the Fed.

The only leverage the government has over the Fed is the armed forces. Will the government ever separate themselves from their banker friends enough to turn the army on them? Probably not.

I for one will be writing in Rand Paul during the next Presidential election. Fuck Hillary right in the ear. I actually think if Chris Christie runs he has enough integrity to stand up to the Fed; however, he might not consider that important.

You run into serious problems picking candidates solely on one issue, especially one as scattered (politically) as the Fed. Are you willing to have Rand Paul's "I make the cotton gin look futuristic" style of governance just to rid the US of the Fed? I have a hard time believeing that even you think the Fed is THAT big of a problem.

Perhaps more important is that the President is largely impotent to do anything bout the Fed. You want change in the Fed? Take it to Congress, not the Executive.

At 6/7/13 11:46 AM, Poniiboi wrote: What are the reasons that the Fed should NOT be audited?

It does.

At 6/7/13 11:48 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Easy answer Fire the assholes and make the Fed part of the Treasury Department therefore it gets audited annually.

Come on Tony, you're making me pull out math again.

So Goverment spending looks something like this:

Government spending=tax revenue + change in borrowing + change in money

Makes sense, government spends (roughly) what it makes in tax revenue, how much it borrows, and how much money it prints. Now why is this important? Let's look back at our quantity theory of money equation,

MV=PY, where M is the total amount of money, V is the velocity of money, P is the price level of money, and Y is GDP. Once again doing log derivatives gives us this equation,

Change of money=inflation+change of GDP.

What the heck does this all mean? Well, as you can see with government spending, government can effectively "pay" for it's own expenditures by printing more money. But, as we can see with the growth theory of money, in doing so would increase inflation to the point of hyperinflation. And guess who gets to suffer from such an act? All of us holding currency. This is called seigniorage, or inflation tax. Governments tend to try to avoid this, because it doesn't end well. So they separate monetary policy from fiscal policy and give it to a central bank, who we hope is independent for this reason.

At 6/7/13 03:25 PM, Poniiboi wrote: Great, but the Fed is private and doesn't answer to the government, so they can't be fired except by forcible action. The only leverage the government has over the Fed is the armed forces. Will the government ever separate themselves from their banker friends enough to turn the army on them? Probably not.

It's definitely nor private. The President appoints the members of the Board of the Federal Reserve and Congress confirms them. If the President did that to a private company it'd be accusations of trying to create a Command Economy. Now you're right that it doesn't have to get decisions approved by Congress or the President but so does every other Federal agency.

Now we want the Central Bank to be independent, we want at least our monetary policy to be adequate especially when our fiscal policy sure as hell is not.

At 6/7/13 04:23 PM, Camarohusky wrote: I'm all for it. My only qualm here is a cost benefit analysis. How much good would come from auditing a semi-governmental organization? I know it would cost an extreme amount ofmoney as the Fed is a behemoth. Would an audit of an organization that is still partially part of the government accomplish anything to justify the massive expense?

most of the time, the price of a good watch dog is less than the cost of not having one. For example in my province we have some one who's job is to investigate government proposals for potential waste and inefficiencies, and that man as a person who has been very responsible and hard working for us tax payers, has seen to it that the cost of hiring him was outweighed by the money he helped us save by making a wasteful government body more transparent and accountable.

At 6/7/13 08:50 PM, BrianEtrius wrote: non application

*sigh* you and your useless Econ 101 equations that don't apply again. They'd be great if people didn't lie.

All you guys agree with me on this yet resist me in the other threads, yet this is a central tenet of what I believe. I can only think that you guys agree with me on other issues more than you want to and it bothers you. Just come on over to the right side and quit playing devil's advocate...you'll feel better.

At 6/10/13 09:44 PM, Poniiboi wrote: *sigh* you and your useless Econ 101 equations that don't apply again. They'd be great if people didn't lie.

If people lie how do I know you're speaking the truth? Prove that you're right. Otherwise, you could be lying, like the people you're describing. Are you saying you are a liar?

Yay logical fallacies, which you seem to be full of!

All you guys agree with me on this yet resist me in the other threads, yet this is a central tenet of what I believe. I can only think that you guys agree with me on other issues more than you want to and it bothers you. Just come on over to the right side and quit playing devil's advocate...you'll feel better.

Lol right. The only reason why people agreed with you is because they don't understand how the Fed works, but thanks to what's already been posted, it's pretty darn clear that the government looks pretty darn close at the Fed already for pretty damn good reason: the two closely relate on how there adjustments in the short run to deter recessions from happening due to the free market. Furthermore, I'll link it again: you want an audit of the Fed? Here it is.

And now, for a good Greek quote, but then again, you don't read.

"It's what the hawk said high in the clouds as he carried off a speckle-throated nightingale skewered on his talons. She complained something pitiful, and he made this high and mighty speech to her: 'No sense in your crying. You're in the grip of real strength now, and you'll go where I take you, songbird or not. I'll make a meal out of you if I want, or I might let you go. Only a fool struggles against his superiors, he not only gets beat, but humiliated as well.'"-Hesoid

At 6/11/13 03:43 AM, BrianEtrius wrote:

At 6/10/13 09:44 PM, Poniiboi wrote:

:Are you saying you are a liar?

yes. This is exactly what I've been saying this whole time. LMAO
You just linked me to a self audit of the Fed. Are you kidding?! MOAR LMAO

At 6/11/13 08:57 AM, Poniiboi wrote: yes. This is exactly what I've been saying this whole time. LMAO

So you're admitting that you are a liar, which means anything you've said so far could be a lie? That's an admission I would not be "laughing my ass off" at.

You just linked me to a self audit of the Fed. Are you kidding?! MOAR LMAO

You wanted an audit, you got an audit. Next be more specific.

"Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -Mark Twain

At 6/11/13 01:35 PM, BrianEtrius wrote: a bunch of bullshit

OMG YOU IDIOT LOL LMAO

At 6/11/13 02:03 PM, Poniiboi wrote:

At 6/11/13 01:35 PM, BrianEtrius wrote: a bunch of bullshit

OMG YOU IDIOT LOL LMAO

Aight I'm putting you on notice, next time you insult someone without providing any sort of point ( and I will be the judge of what constitutes a point ) I'll just ban you and you can feel free to curse my foolish unoriginal ways from your cavernous mansion which you will undoubtedly acquire by conquering the system and avoiding tap water.

This is basically a test for the rest of you, you complained endlessly about shaggy / leanlifter and those types of idiots while at the same time engaging them so there, you tell me if you're happier once he's gone if he keeps it up.

At 6/11/13 02:13 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 6/11/13 02:03 PM, Poniiboi wrote:

At 6/11/13 01:35 PM, BrianEtrius wrote: a bunch of bullshit

OMG YOU IDIOT LOL LMAO

Aight I'm putting you on notice, next time you insult someone without providing any sort of point ( and I will be the judge of what constitutes a point ) I'll just ban you and you can feel free to curse my foolish unoriginal ways from your cavernous mansion which you will undoubtedly acquire by conquering the system and avoiding tap water.

This is basically a test for the rest of you, you complained endlessly about shaggy / leanlifter and those types of idiots while at the same time engaging them so there, you tell me if you're happier once he's gone if he keeps it up.

I knew this was coming, and I don't back down from authoritarian nonsense. So if you ban me for nothing just because I am the dissenting opinion, I'll give you the same trouble I gave other mods when they tried to do the same thing. So go ahead and be unfair at your own peril.

At 6/11/13 03:14 PM, Poniiboi wrote:

I knew this was coming, and I don't back down from authoritarian nonsense. So if you ban me for nothing just because I am the dissenting opinion, I'll give you the same trouble I gave other mods when they tried to do the same thing. So go ahead and be unfair at your own peril.

Dude I think you need some mental help or counseling of some sort. You have pretty major issues.

At 6/11/13 03:45 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 6/11/13 03:14 PM, Poniiboi wrote:

I knew this was coming, and I don't back down from authoritarian nonsense. So if you ban me for nothing just because I am the dissenting opinion, I'll give you the same trouble I gave other mods when they tried to do the same thing. So go ahead and be unfair at your own peril.

Dude I think you need some mental help or counseling of some sort. You have pretty major issues.

I really don't. If you can look at this from an objective perspective, you might see differently. I understand that you see someone with a different opinion who tends to lash out at people making folks mad on the boards.

This is what I see.

I see folks coming down on anyone with an opinion that's too far different from theirs. They are unwilling to have those opinions anywhere near them, which makes them just as bad, or worse, as anyone who lashes back with a few insults.

This is me trying to have a civil discussion about this and come to a consensus of some sort. I spend a lot of Internet time on this board and I want to be respected. I'm more than willing to respect others if this is the case.

NOTE: I'm only talking to Pox with this message, so the rest of you kindly opine to yourselves on this (although I know you won't)

At 6/11/13 04:05 PM, Poniiboi wrote: folks coming down on anyone with an opinion that's too far different from theirs. They are unwilling to have those opinions anywhere near them, which makes them just as bad, or worse, as anyone who lashes back with a few insults.

Yeah see the thing is that your claims have been addressed fairly and accurately many times but you don't acknowledge any sort of response to anything and just repeat your mantra that people just can't deal with how awesome you are, and then you threaten me like a crazy person when you're warned.

You're basically like a horribly overweight fat black guy who's calling the Chippendalles a bunch of racists for not letting you dance in their company no matter how many times they tell you it's because you're an obese disgusting hog creature.

Right now, you're the crazy contestant on American Idol who thinks the judges are out to get them. You think you're going to take the world by storm with your amazing singing voice and the industry professionals are just evil and close-minded when the reality is that you suck and no one would pay to hear you.

That's what's going on right now, that's what we're all watching happen and you've dug yourself so far into a hole that the only way out for you now is complete and total denial lest you face the horrible consequence of having to admit you were wrong.

At 6/11/13 03:14 PM, Poniiboi wrote: I knew this was coming, and I don't back down from authoritarian nonsense. So if you ban me for nothing just because I am the dissenting opinion, I'll give you the same trouble I gave other mods when they tried to do the same thing. So go ahead and be unfair at your own peril.

This is why I love the internet

At 6/11/13 04:15 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 6/11/13 04:05 PM, Poniiboi wrote: folks coming down on anyone with an opinion that's too far different from theirs. They are unwilling to have those opinions anywhere near them, which makes them just as bad, or worse, as anyone who lashes back with a few insults.

Yeah see the thing is that your claims have been addressed fairly and accurately many times but you don't acknowledge any sort of response to anything and just repeat your mantra that people just can't deal with how awesome you are, and then you threaten me like a crazy person when you're warned.

You're basically like a horribly overweight fat black guy who's calling the Chippendalles a bunch of racists for not letting you dance in their company no matter how many times they tell you it's because you're an obese disgusting hog creature.

Right now, you're the crazy contestant on American Idol who thinks the judges are out to get them. You think you're going to take the world by storm with your amazing singing voice and the industry professionals are just evil and close-minded when the reality is that you suck and no one would pay to hear you.

That's what's going on right now, that's what we're all watching happen and you've dug yourself so far into a hole that the only way out for you now is complete and total denial lest you face the horrible consequence of having to admit you were wrong.

You want me to be politically wrong and morally wrong and I'm just not. Then you show your own racism by equating blackness with disgusting hogishness. Wow. Who's got the problems? I tried to step back and you pounce on it and take it as weakness, so it's whatever from now on. I can see you have no inkling of what fair is or how to incorporate any viewpoint other than your own into your worldview. You've put yourself down a couple of pegs in my book.

Have at thee! LMAO

At 6/11/13 05:47 PM, Poniiboi wrote:

You want me to be politically wrong and morally wrong and I'm just not. Then you show your own racism by equating blackness with disgusting hogishness. Wow. Who's got the problems? I tried to step back and you pounce on it and take it as weakness, so it's whatever from now on. I can see you have no inkling of what fair is or how to incorporate any viewpoint other than your own into your worldview. You've put yourself down a couple of pegs in my book.

Like seriously, no human with any basic reading comprehension would write things like this unless they had some kind of mental problem lol.

At 6/11/13 07:40 PM, poxpower wrote: something racist

*yawn*

Can we get back to talking about how the Federal Reserve is regularly audited by the GAO? Or have we completely given up on giving a shit about this person?

At 6/11/13 10:41 PM, Feoric wrote: Can we get back to talking about how the Federal Reserve is regularly audited by the GAO? Or have we completely given up on giving a shit about this person?

That's like your mom auditing your dad. C'mon. Truly independent audit is what needs to happen, especially after the questions about the bailout bill. How much was given? Why can't the public know where all of their money is? I'll ignore the personal swipe because they're just getting really weak now anyway.

At 6/11/13 11:04 PM, Poniiboi wrote: That's like your mom auditing your dad. C'mon. Truly independent audit is what needs to happen, especially after the questions about the bailout bill. How much was given? Why can't the public know where all of their money is? I'll ignore the personal swipe because they're just getting really weak now anyway.

This isn't independent? You haven't even bothered to look at the GAO reports, have you? No, of course not. That'd break your kayfabe. Oh cool, a TARP update was released today. Eh, whatever. Etc, etc, etc. Like I said before, your act is really transparent and has been done millions of times before on this forum. You're not even in the top 10.

At 6/11/13 02:13 PM, poxpower wrote: This is basically a test for the rest of you, you complained endlessly about shaggy / leanlifter and those types of idiots while at the same time engaging them so there, you tell me if you're happier once he's gone if he keeps it up.

I wholeheartedly agree with pox. Feed the trolls/kids who just annoy the piss out of you with constant fighting and I will also be drop kicking your asses out too. Also will drop kick the troll fuckers out too. But they already knew I'd do that :)

At 6/11/13 10:32 PM, Poniiboi wrote:

At 6/11/13 07:40 PM, poxpower wrote: something racist

*yawn*

Nothing he said in that response was remotely racist. That kind of baseless character assassination is the lowest, most despicable form of ad hominem. Whether he gives a fuck or not (and it's pox, so I doubt he does) you should do the decent thing and apologize for that bullshit and disgusting accusation.

At 6/11/13 11:11 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 6/11/13 11:04 PM, Poniiboi wrote: That's like your mom auditing your dad. C'mon. Truly independent audit is what needs to happen, especially after the questions about the bailout bill. How much was given? Why can't the public know where all of their money is? I'll ignore the personal swipe because they're just getting really weak now anyway.

This isn't independent? You haven't even bothered to look at the GAO reports, have you? No, of course not. That'd break your kayfabe. Oh cool, a TARP update was released today. Eh, whatever. Etc, etc, etc. Like I said before, your act is really transparent and has been done millions of times before on this forum. You're not even in the top 10.

Uh huh. Love how you assume I haven't read any of this. I think you're just as blind for assuming that just because a report exists that it is somehow correct and truthful when the government has just been caught targeting groups for tax evasion and working with private companies to monitor the information of citizens. I suppose if they gave a report on that you'd be like, "Ok. cool!"

The kayfabe is this paradigm of officiality and the tragedy is your belief in it.

Fact is any bank that overplayed their hand in derivatives should have been shut down. It's crazy that a little PDF file that YOU probably haven't even read can completely take your eye off the ball of the massive injustice that was done by the government saving these institutions, not just saving them, but upholding the huge salaries the top execs pay themselves and accepting that money back in campaign contributions.

And as for you, aviewaskewed, I actually thought we could have a meaningful discussion even though you think you know everything. I answered your post. You should go look at it and quit all this false outrage for something that could have definitely been construed as racist. You sound just like those MSNBC pundits you so derided.

At 6/11/13 11:18 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

Nothing he said in that response was remotely racist. That kind of baseless character assassination is the lowest, most despicable form of ad hominem. Whether he gives a fuck or not (and it's pox, so I doubt he does) you should do the decent thing and apologize for that bullshit and disgusting accusation.

I don't think he's knowingly malicious, I just think he has major issues with reading comprehension which probably explains a lot lol.