Immigrants...Or brown people?

[ChloBro]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8142176/W hite-Britons-to-become-minority-by-2066.html

White media publishes papers of how they'll be the minority in this country and that country by this year and that year.
But is that really the problem...?
I don't think so.
I don't think there'd be a problem if white American "immigrants" were flooding the country.
It's brown people that they are against.
Same thing is happening here in America.

[Warforger]

At 5/1/13 04:14 AM, ChloBro wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8142176/W hite-Britons-to-become-minority-by-2066.html

White media publishes papers of how they'll be the minority in this country and that country by this year and that year.
But is that really the problem...?
I don't think so.
I don't think there'd be a problem if white American "immigrants" were flooding the country.
It's brown people that they are against.
Same thing is happening here in America.

It's a much bigger problem to keep them out than it is to let them in. Nations like Japan are proud of their heterogeneity and they severely restrict naturalization, even to the point where you could be born in Japan but if you don't identify your ethnic group as Japanese then you're denied the right to vote. At the same time Japan has a huge problem, they have a large population of elderly people but they have a negative population growth rate as in their fertility rate is below 2.1 since most parents prefer having 1 child over more. They're running low on funds to pay for their elderly at the same time their education budget is shrinking because they're getting less and less students. Thus Japan has fewer tax payers and a higher demand for government services it has to give out. This is something that happens in every developed nation, but the main solution for now has been to take in immigrants. In particular the US has been very successful at avoiding the problem Japan has (as much as it would seem otherwise) because it takes in so many immigrants, and since race isn't a component of the American nationality it doesn't produce as much controversy if they come in and settle down.

The real problem is always these people who are against it. Groups such as the Know-Nothings, KKK or other immigration restriction organizations come off today as irrational and intolerant. There was for example a long movement to keep Catholicism from "dominating America" and there was a fear that the Pope was trying to gain control of America through Catholics (Al Smith the first Catholic to run for President was accused of planning to build a fortress in DC which the Pope would come over and rule America from). What's sad now is that the KKK is now trying to reach out to Catholics..... which is incredibly ironic.

[Ceratisa]

The real problem is always these people who are against it. Groups such as the Know-Nothings, KKK or other immigration restriction organizations come off today as irrational and intolerant. There was for example a long movement to keep Catholicism from "dominating America" and there was a fear that the Pope was trying to gain control of America through Catholics (Al Smith the first Catholic to run for President was accused of planning to build a fortress in DC which the Pope would come over and rule America from). What's sad now is that the KKK is now trying to reach out to Catholics..... which is incredibly ironic.

Can you explain to me the irony?

English colonies were heavily protestant and very anti catholic as a whole. After the Glorious Revolution in England many colonies and settlements that had religious toleration changed.

The fear of "Popery" and other Catholic influence was reason enough for many Puritans to leave England. anti-Catholic sentiments in English colonies existed before the first 20 blacks arrived. (not slaves)

The only interesting connection I can make is the fact that Catholics during colonial times were largely Spanish or French.

[Warforger]

At 5/1/13 07:35 PM, Ceratisa wrote: Can you explain to me the irony?

English colonies were heavily protestant and very anti catholic as a whole. After the Glorious Revolution in England many colonies and settlements that had religious toleration changed.

The fear of "Popery" and other Catholic influence was reason enough for many Puritans to leave England. anti-Catholic sentiments in English colonies existed before the first 20 blacks arrived. (not slaves)

The only interesting connection I can make is the fact that Catholics during colonial times were largely Spanish or French.

Right, Anti-Catholicism though didn't die away until after WWII and even then it still sprang up occasionally until JFK became President. Back during the 1920's for example was the peak of the KKK and back then their principal opponent were the Catholics at the time. This is a good image for the election of 1928 in which Al Smith ran for.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Bal lot1.jpg/300px-Ballot1.jpg

Although it was ironic back then since the Democrats appealed to Klansmen back then, at the same time Al Smith was a Democrat and the KKK hated him.

Thus given the KKK's history of anti-Catholicism it's ironic that they're now trying to admit Catholics among their ranks.

[supergandhi64]

aren't white britons immigrants to america though . . . it used to be indians before! try finding any traces of hinduism left in america today

--supergandhi64

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 5/2/13 03:40 PM, supergandhi64 wrote: aren't white britons immigrants to america though . . . it used to be indians before! try finding any traces of hinduism left in america today

--supergandhi64

not Hinduism its the Indigenous Religion of Native American tribes (each has a different variation).

[SmilezRoyale]

For one thing, no one really calls for Asians, Africans, or Arabs to be made minorities in their own country.

Secondly, previous instances of immigration though where received with hostility. Eastern / Southern European immigrants were not seen as the same "Whites" as North western Europeans. In fact the whole "White" brush would have been seen as too broad for nativists of the turn of the century.

Nevertheless these European immigrants seemed to want to be Americans and more or less assimilated and at some point all European Americans became looked upon as generically "White"

First, start by accepting the fact that Xenophobia, as it is called, is "natural" in the same way that promiscuity is in some way natural. It can and should be tempered to a degree to ensure that the behavior is not self destructive. Nevertheless, Trying to achieve a society of pure tolerance is as pointless and destructive as trying to achieve a society of pure chastity.

The issue of race politics is relevant to immigration but not as the universalists would have one believe. People are more trusting of those who look and act more like them, they are also more inclined to civic mindedness and charitable behavior when they live in a society surrounded by people who look and act like them. [See Robert Putnam] Perceptions of having one's own society taken upon by people who appear different [race and/or ethnicity in the current case] and act different [culture] fosters feelings of resentment. --> This can explain past immigration anxieties and present immigration anxieties.

The desire to live among people who look and act like you is not the same as active antipathy towards other groups, nor is it a subconscious desire to subjugate or enslave people with darker skin than you. [Which as far as I can see is what saying "brown" serves to imply] -- Eastern and southern Europeans were distrusted for the same reason as Hispanic immigrants are distrusted today.

Liberals don't feel as much resentment in partially due to their own sense of post-racial piety but far more importantly because they themselves seldom live in the multicultural societies which they attempt to create. Multicultural college campuses being perhaps the one exception.

Normally I'm loath to the idea of saying "This time It's different" -- But this time around I actually do think it's different.

I'm guessing that on the average this new group of immigrants is less willing to assimilate and less "proud" of being American citizens than previous generations. This might be due to 21st century USA's lack of inspiration, or the fact that the cultural differences have some physiological basis that previous cultural differences between north-western and eastern / southern Europeans did not.

I don't propose deportation or strict immigration controls, however. What I propose instead is that the south-western United States be made into a Hispanic National State, and that further immigration into the remainder of the now partitioned US be made emphasizing high-skill and high intelligence.

I also propose that red states and blue states be separated so that Democratic politicians don't use immigration and racial hatred as a bludgeon against white voters.

[Ceratisa]

At 5/4/13 11:11 AM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

Secondly, previous instances of immigration though where received with hostility. Eastern / Southern European immigrants were not seen as the same "Whites" as North western Europeans. In fact the whole "White" brush would have been seen as too broad for nativists of the turn of the century.

You are talking turn of the 20-21st century right? When you mention turn of the century?

[SmilezRoyale]

At 5/4/13 01:05 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

At 5/4/13 11:11 AM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

Secondly, previous instances of immigration though where received with hostility. Eastern / Southern European immigrants were not seen as the same "Whites" as North western Europeans. In fact the whole "White" brush would have been seen as too broad for nativists of the turn of the century.

You are talking turn of the 20-21st century right? When you mention turn of the century?

The shift from north western Europeans to eastern and southern europeans began in the late 19th century early 20th.

[Kel-chan]

all it is an attempt to keep the ponzi scheme going.

The racial and cultural stuff are just the overtones for the small minded. Its all about money. Cheap labor and continuing to get more and more people to get into debt, buy crap they don't need, become wage slaves and pay for the gov't handouts for the previous generation.

Ideally you would want a contracting population but only in the sense that you would do away with welfare entitlements saving the gov't billions and citizens billions in taxes. Then you wouldn't need obamacare. The next generations would retool and have more opportunity to do something with their life. There would also be deflation in the cost of fixed finished goods. This would result in a mini economic boom in the longer run as people could afford things and not be in debt and save money leading to financial security which would turn into a mini baby boom as those that are now financially secure view children as an asset instead of a liability.

So in short immigration is a bunch of shit designed to keep the wheels turning instead of taking a natural correction

[Warforger]

At 5/8/13 12:14 AM, Kel-chan wrote: all it is an attempt to keep the ponzi scheme going.

The racial and cultural stuff are just the overtones for the small minded. Its all about money. Cheap labor and continuing to get more and more people to get into debt, buy crap they don't need, become wage slaves and pay for the gov't handouts for the previous generation.

Sounds very Marxist of you. And no, depending on the group that is not always the case. In particular Asians tend to fly under the radar in terms of politics because they tend to be very successful.

Ideally you would want a contracting population but only in the sense that you would do away with welfare entitlements saving the gov't billions and citizens billions in taxes.

No. In fact you have it completely backwards. If your population is contracting that means that you have less tax payers. This also means that the Elderly population becomes a bigger % of the population. So in fact if your population contracts you have to raise taxes or else go into deficit or find some other way to pay off the social services.

Then you wouldn't need obamacare. The next generations would retool and have more opportunity to do something with their life.

......What?

:There would also be deflation in the cost of fixed finished goods.

Deflation? Um you might be right in the sense that consumption will decrease after taxes have gone up to pay for more government spending, but that's deflation by contracting the economy which isn't something people like doing in politics (it usually only happens when there is a huge recession, the last time it happened was in 2008-2009). Otherwise when the number of people decline, the number of people in the Labor force declines, this causes what's called Cost Push inflation, where the economy contracts AND prices rise, it's what happened during the 70's. So in the Long Run it would actually raise prices in that case.

:This would result in a mini economic boom in the longer run as people could afford things and not be in debt and save money leading to financial security which would turn into a mini baby boom as those that are now financially secure view children as an asset instead of a liability.

No not really. You have to remember, inflation happens because business realize they can make a profit by selling at higher prices, when the economy is booming businesses want to cash in on the increased income so they raise prices. This is why inflation is bad during a booming economy. Deflation occurs when the economy is bad that businesses are forced to lower their prices in order to accommodate customers with lower income. The only way that there would be deflation and a booming economy is if it became cheaper to produce.

So in short immigration is a bunch of shit designed to keep the wheels turning instead of taking a natural correction

No because the opposite is true; immigration may be the only thing holding up the USA. Countries like Japan which champion homogeneity and will do anything to protect it are suffering as their population is declining and they don't have the money to pay for social services for the Elderly.

[Kel-chan]

if immigration is the only thing keeping the developed nations alive- then they are infact dead.

If your native population is subsumed by immigrants than your country as you knew it ceases to exist and it is now a new foreign land filled will people of a different culture speaking different tongues with different values

I think what people are complaining about is there is no effort being made to westernize all these immigrants.

Back when america was going through its first couple immigrant waves it was largely assumed immigrants would take on the roles and values of the country not adhere to the cultures where they came from. It wasnt just because those immigrants were from from europe. It was because they left their culture and language at home to become "american"

thats not happening these days.

Immigrants are refusing to assimilate and create little ghettos of wherever the hell they came from. this breeds what later turns into balkanization.

Then onto of that you have criminal invasion of the US which the govt actively encourage. that's a whole nother....enchilada

the asian cultures have it right- you can't have one nation if you don't have one people.

If a group of people are going to come into a country and then refuse to adopt that country's culture than they are basically invaders

[The-Great-One]

What is this white media you speak of?

[ChloBro]

At 5/8/13 01:12 AM, Kel-chan wrote:

If a group of people are going to come into a country and then refuse to adopt that country's culture than they are basically invaders"

Wow, this is a gross mentality.
Immigrants come into countries and pay taxes just like everyone else.
They have every right to maintain their culture.
You're preaching a basic level of genocide.

[ChloBro]

At 5/8/13 12:14 AM, Kel-chan wrote:

So in short immigration is a bunch of shit designed to keep the wheels turning instead of taking a natural correction

Now that I'm blazed I really know why this comment bothers me.
Immigrants who maintain their culture pass it down through kids.
These kids grow up with a multi-cultural outlook...
And that brings a kind of psycho-social diversity to a nation that allows it's core culture to become richer.

[Kel-chan]

At 5/8/13 02:15 AM, ChloBro wrote:

Wow, this is a gross mentality.
Immigrants come into countries and pay taxes just like everyone else.
They have every right to maintain their culture.
You're preaching a basic level of genocide.

nice hyperbole. It's not genocide to assimilate into a new country. Even america used to be the big melting pot. I.E. take folks from all over the world and throw them into the american stew. They all add a little flavor but in the end they are together in a stew. It's not genocide to expect foreigners to learn the language and customs and laws of the place they move to. It's also not genocide to expect them to NOT be treated as a special class of citizens under the law with certain exceptions.

Thats what it means to have equal protection under the law. Nobody is exempt because of a special or minority status.

The idea is if you go to a foreign country and want to maintain your culture so much. Maybe you shouldn't have left your old country if you like it so much.

I wouldn't expect to move to china and not learn the language and demand people speak to me in english and adhere to all of my western customs while at the same time refusing to adhere to theirs.

Guess what the Chinese would say to that.

If you like your old country and culture so damn much- why don't you move back there.

[Kel-chan]

At 5/8/13 03:17 AM, ChloBro wrote:

Now that I'm blazed I really know why this comment bothers me.
Immigrants who maintain their culture pass it down through kids.
These kids grow up with a multi-cultural outlook...
And that brings a kind of psycho-social diversity to a nation that allows it's core culture to become richer.

This is untrue.

What it DOES breed it separate citizens with totally different mini-cultures and a disparate sense of social cohesion. In the long run it leads to ethnic strife as people start to identify more with their mini culture that with their country as a whole. In the really long run it leads to balkanization and dissolution of the host state.

Yugoslavia ring a bell? South Africa? The Stahn's of central asia that used to be part of the USSR? Chechnya. The Kurds. The Palestinians.

Any minority group that forms its own enclave and refuses to assimilate into the majority culture of the place they live leads to balkanization and the break up of nation states and destruction of social cohesion.

[Warforger]

At 5/8/13 01:12 AM, Kel-chan wrote: if immigration is the only thing keeping the developed nations alive- then they are infact dead.

If your native population is subsumed by immigrants than your country as you knew it ceases to exist and it is now a new foreign land filled will people of a different culture speaking different tongues with different values

Really? Is that why German, Gaelic, Serbo-Croatian, Czech, Slovak, Dutch, Polish, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Spanish etc. are all languages used by the government?

I think what people are complaining about is there is no effort being made to westernize all these immigrants.

Well it's pretty apparent that what's the immigrant is supposed to do. I mean if I dropped you in Russia and you didn't know Russian, the first thing you would do is learn Russian. Otherwise no, I've lived among immigrants all my life from all over the world and I can tell you they are very assimilated. In fact many of them share many characteristics with the US before they migrate over, in particular many of them are Christian. It feels like they're killing their own culture whenever I see an Indian who is Christian and not Hindu or a Korean who is Christian and not Buddhist. Even then the immigrants children grow up in American culture while attending to their native culture as a secondary activity, so they tend to feel much more connection to America rather than the native culture.

But no, what makes up a nationality is constantly changing especially in the modern sense. To be an American for example you had to be white, Protestant and Anglo-Saxon at one point. At this point all of those have ceased to be components of an American, the only thing that remains is a shared political culture.

Back when america was going through its first couple immigrant waves it was largely assumed immigrants would take on the roles and values of the country not adhere to the cultures where they came from. It wasnt just because those immigrants were from from europe. It was because they left their culture and language at home to become "american"

thats not happening these days.

Yah no. People who've been arguing that immigrants were unassimilable have always existed and they have always ended up completely wrong and now appear as ignorant and racist. For example the Know-Nothings, Immigration Restriction league, the Chinese Exclusion Act etc. so no every notion I've seen of "these people are incompatible with America" is blatantly false every time I see it.

Immigrants are refusing to assimilate and create little ghettos of wherever the hell they came from. this breeds what later turns into balkanization.

Nope not at all. There are Pakistanni's, Bengali's and Indians at my school for example, and guess what? Not only do they tolerate each other but they're friends even. Hell I was hearing the other day in NYC a Muslim man came to the defense of his Jewish friend when people were going after him for objecting to "Merry Christmas". They don't create Ghetto's because most immigrants in fact migrate to more prosperous communities because they have college degree's and can get jobs. Also have you always noticed when people say "there's an assimilation crisis!" that they always refer to Latino's and not Asians? Because Latino's have more European culture and share many of our political beliefs while Asians come from a completely different culture.

In fact the very definition of the American nationality attracts people since they're tired of the intense race requirements for certain nationalities. This is why America is going to prosper while Japan begins to weaken.

Then onto of that you have criminal invasion of the US which the govt actively encourage. that's a whole nother....enchilada

Oh of course, because they're Democrats right? So you overlook the fact that Obama has deported more Illegals in his years in Office than George W. Bush did?

the asian cultures have it right- you can't have one nation if you don't have one people.

What do you mean? China and India have many many many different cultures and languages. India has around 3 goddamn Languages families, Indo-European, Dravidian and Sino-Tibetan. Yet aside from argurably Tibet these nations work very well at maintaining all of their cultures and languages (again there's exceptions like Manchu). So what to do you mean by "Asian cultures"?

If a group of people are going to come into a country and then refuse to adopt that country's culture than they are basically invaders

Right, but has that been the case lately? Better yet have you actually met immigrants before?

[Kel-chan]

At 5/8/13 07:54 PM, Warforger wrote:

Right, but has that been the case lately? Better yet have you actually met immigrants before?

I'm talking about a specific type of immigrant that refuses to assimilate into the host country. I'm not talking about those that successfully integrate into society. I'm talking about the ones that come to a country and are vehemently opposed to integration and want their own section where thier home countries rules apply inside a new host country

[Warforger]

At 5/8/13 08:42 PM, Kel-chan wrote: I'm talking about a specific type of immigrant that refuses to assimilate into the host country. I'm not talking about those that successfully integrate into society. I'm talking about the ones that come to a country and are vehemently opposed to integration and want their own section where thier home countries rules apply inside a new host country

I haven't heard of immigrants who refuse to integrate, perhaps to keep their culture yes but not to integrate.

[Kel-chan]

At 5/8/13 09:18 PM, Warforger wrote: I haven't heard of immigrants who refuse to integrate, perhaps to keep their culture yes but not to integrate.

What about immigrants that want special priviledges that aren't afforded to regular citizens?

[Warforger]

At 5/8/13 09:23 PM, Kel-chan wrote: What about immigrants that want special priviledges that aren't afforded to regular citizens?

You mean deportation? That sounds about it.

[Lumber-Jax12]

No I understand Kel-chen perfectly on this. There are immigrants who assimilate and that's fine. But there are these people who cling their culture.

Now I don't know what exactly American culture is, but I could tell what isn't. Look I'm a mutt genetically, so maybe that's why i don't associate myself with a particular ethnic group, but I'll say this, save for Italians, I feel as if whites have pretty much all blended together.

I mean do people actually boldly state their Irish,German,Swedish,French, heritage anymore? I don't and see it as a good thing. I mean I can understand clinging to your culture if you moved here, and even to a lesser degree if your parents are the immigrants, but when they're the grandparent's I have to question why.

[Warforger]

At 5/9/13 11:08 PM, Lumber-Jax12 wrote: No I understand Kel-chen perfectly on this. There are immigrants who assimilate and that's fine. But there are these people who cling their culture.

What's wrong with that?

Now I don't know what exactly American culture is, but I could tell what isn't.

It's an amalgamation of several different cultures into one.

Look I'm a mutt genetically, so maybe that's why i don't associate myself with a particular ethnic group, but I'll say this, save for Italians, I feel as if whites have pretty much all blended together.

Feelings are not the same as actuality. Especially when ethnic groups cluster with each other.

I mean do people actually boldly state their Irish,German,Swedish,French, heritage anymore? I don't and see it as a good thing. I mean I can understand clinging to your culture if you moved here, and even to a lesser degree if your parents are the immigrants, but when they're the grandparent's I have to question why.

There are people who do but it's hard to measure the degree. For example it's most prominently kept by food, they retain the recipe's of their people. Other than that what's wrong with it? People insisting on keeping their heritage is a bad thing?

[Fim]

I always found it pretty funny with the American debate on immigration, people seem be so patriotic, fearful of people coming to the country to work, and so 'proud to be American' when essentially the whole country is founded on the backs of immigrants and most people can only trace their American ancestory back about 200 years.

[Warforger]

At 5/10/13 10:38 PM, Fim wrote: I always found it pretty funny with the American debate on immigration, people seem be so patriotic, fearful of people coming to the country to work,

That's a misconception honestly. The majority of Americans have been in favor of immigration since the beginning of the country, it's just there is a far right wing constituency which isn't. That's the same with every country and it tends to bring out the worst in them. I'm still convinced the xenophobia isn't as bad as in Europe though (in Russia particular is pretty nasty, not to mention riots in places like Spain against immigrants), and it's still not as bad as other continents (Myanmar is perhaps the worst example I can think of, in order to be a Muslim citizen of Myanmar you have to trace your ancestry back before the 1820's or else you're treated as a foreigner).

and so 'proud to be American' when essentially the whole country is founded on the backs of immigrants and most people can only trace their American ancestory back about 200 years.

Actually I'm not really sure about that. I don't remember the statistic but very few modern Americans can trace their ancestry back to the original 13 colonies; most were immigrants afterwards.