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Buoy
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let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 02:15 PM Reply

In light of this,

I'd just like to see how many people on here think we should consider broadening the scope for discussion on this forum to include music appreciation.

We are a community of musicians so clearly music appreciation is a larger and more important part of our lives than it is to the average community. We are all curious about what makes a song work, why we like one kind of music over another, there are so many things that we probably want to talk about that we can't really discuss together in this forum without first shoehorning some production/composition-related topic into the thread.

The General forum exist, sure, but do you really want to talk with these people? The music discussions there are FUCKING BORING. I don't feel like talking about music with a bunch of people who generally aren't passionate about music at all.

Also this forum is starving for content. Most times when I stop by, nothing new has happened since the last time. I wouldn't mind trading off some of the "specialization" for more discussion.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 02:41 PM Reply

I've had a problem with this for a long time but I've abided to the rules and like everyone else I've always told newcomers that this forum is about music creation, not appreciation. Recently it's been "upgraded" to also allowing appreciation of original works here on Newgrounds, but honestly, the only times I've ever seen someone try and do that is to advertise their own works. I'm also pretty sure that in the super rare instance that anyone tried to make a thread to share the awesome music s/he found on Newgrounds, s/he would probably be directed to the underdog thread where his/her post would get drowned out by self-nominations.

I agree that discussion on music in the general forum just sucks. I made two questionnaires for an important school project of mine. Here in the Audio Forum I got well over a page of long, detailed and helpful replies, and in General which is supposed to have way more regulars than we have over here, I got about half a page of replies that were mostly one to three words, with the occasional one-liner. So yes, it's generally better for musicians to discuss music among themselves instead of with regular people.

Whoever's opposed to this idea is probably thinking "why not discuss this stuff in the lounge?". Well, posts in the lounge get a lot less individual discussion than a whole thread. Another thing to worry about is having the regular people come to this forum to spam threads about how epic lady gaga songs are, but honestly this forum is almost solely visited by musicians or people looking for musicians, so that's not an issue.

So yeah I think I've got a solid argument here. We can probably pass this on to the staff if we get a consensus about this and see what they think.


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Ryskie
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 02:57 PM Reply

I have to say I agree with the both of yas. Back in the day things weren't much better, but at least you wouldn't get flak about discussing topics that in turn would boost communication and inspiration for fellow music artists.

As a community, to get stronger it is a must to be supportive of each other when it comes to possitive discussions and advances. This site by far gets the most traffic into the audio section than any other site that caterst to audio hosting, including soundcloud and bandcamp. If it were possible to up the ante on the social spectrum of this section, it could be turned into a very powerful promotional tool.

After taking such a long break from this site, I came back simply because I wanted another place to give out my music for free, and help promote myself. And in the last week, this site has given me more traffic than all the rest combined in months. This may not mean much to some people here, but as a professional artist, you have no idea the potential this site, and forum, has for growth and success.

This is why I feel most of the successful artists on here eventually move on, because there's not enough people who take this forum seriously. ParagonX and BOUNC3 would definately agree with me on this, two of the best producers from back in the day, one of which is still #1 on the site, and they both left the site behind.

I'm all for making some changes, even though there was nothing in the rules stating anything about my post being not allowed, yet almost every reply to the topic clearly breaks these two;

-Chasing / harassing / flaming other users, regardless of who instigated it.
-Backseat modding: pointing out what needs to be deleted, banned, locked or destroyed.

BrokenDeck
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:06 PM Reply

At 4/13/13 02:57 PM, Ryskie wrote: I'm all for making some changes, even though there was nothing in the rules stating anything about my post being not allowed,

http://www.newgrounds.com/wiki/help-information/forums/forum -rules/audio-forum-rules

Chemich
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:14 PM Reply

If self advertising is that much of a problem simply delete the posts, if it continues and they haven't read the rules just give a day ban telling them to read the rules. Sure it seems harsh but the only way to teach sheep is to give them the incentive to learn.

At 4/13/13 02:57 PM, Ryskie wrote: -Chasing / harassing / flaming other users, regardless of who instigated it.
-Backseat modding: pointing out what needs to be deleted, banned, locked or destroyed.

So well agreed, if we actually just go along with the thread where there's no initial audio advertisement then maybe this community wouldn't be such a joke.

On that note I know it's mainly for audio creation, but what's the harm in adding just general audio appreciation discussion? If it turns into a flame war it gets locked, I didn't think being an unpaid intern for Newgrounds was that difficult of a job.

Sure there's a risk factor, but you never know what the reward will be until you actually try.


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Ryskie
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:17 PM Reply

At 4/13/13 03:06 PM, BrokenDeck wrote:
At 4/13/13 02:57 PM, Ryskie wrote: I'm all for making some changes, even though there was nothing in the rules stating anything about my post being not allowed,
http://www.newgrounds.com/wiki/help-information/forums/forum -rules/audio-forum-rules

Music that motivates you and inspires you to create music is very much a part of the ceation of music. By not allowing topics that are more than just "hey look at this", and try to get people involved in the audio forum to discuss inspiration and new sounds and ideas they may not have heard before, all it's doing is holding back any potential artistic progress that is possible.

If you want to only allow people to post "hey look at my music" or ask questions that can't be answered accurately or at all most of the time, because by the time one would be knowledgeable about advanced techniques and recording knowledge they find little use of being in this forum, then what is the point of having this community?

Ryskie
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:21 PM Reply

On that note I know it's mainly for audio creation, but what's the harm in adding just general audio appreciation discussion?

If it's nothing more than a "check this guy out he's awesome" post, I would definately agree that it should go into a general thread like the audio lounge, but having a thread looking for discussion on a topic that includes both motivations and inspiration, as well as examples of artists and songs that do so, it's really not the same thing.

Ryskie
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:31 PM Reply

Also BrokenDeck, appreciate the links in the other thread, but not being a new user "joined in 2005 as RyanChampion", I'm very much aware of the rules, and from my point of view, I see such a topic as nothing but helpful for producers and song writers on here, and very much so relating to the creation of music... providing that users follow the codes of conduct, and only contribute when it's related to the topic at hand instead of trying to be self driven mods (intentional or not).

I bare no ill will towards anyone on here, I just would like to see a more positive environment and a place where anything related to or supportive of creating music or audio is welcomed, and not shat on and censored out. If this isn't what this group stides to be, then again, what are the mods pushing for, and what's the point of having a section dedicated to us, the music makers?

Back-From-Purgatory
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:40 PM Reply

We very much allow threads based on inspiration and discussion of non AP Music as long as it comes back around to creation, discussion of other artists techniques or unique talents and such is very much encouraged.

"Music that gives you the feels" could mean anything to anyone and doesn't at all promote any valid discussion on the topic of creation.

Just sayin'.


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Ryskie
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:47 PM Reply

At 4/13/13 03:40 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: We very much allow threads based on inspiration and discussion of non AP Music as long as it comes back around to creation, discussion of other artists techniques or unique talents and such is very much encouraged.

"Music that gives you the feels" could mean anything to anyone and doesn't at all promote any valid discussion on the topic

I can vouche for that, but given only limited space for topic names does limit the name options, and I clearly did point out what it was about the song that made the "feels", which is a technique that was used to craft the sample around the drums to give that effect.

Regardless, I feel there should be topics allowed that are more than just "audio creation" centered. Which I believe was the OP's original intent. Because most of the time the forum has nothing new to discuss and full of dead topics. I don't want this thread to be about my last one, as I don't want this to become a redundant conversation about what's over and done with.

Back-From-Purgatory
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 03:59 PM Reply

At 4/13/13 03:47 PM, Ryskie wrote: Regardless, I feel there should be topics allowed that are more than just "audio creation" centered. Which I believe was the OP's original intent. Because most of the time the forum has nothing new to discuss and full of dead topics. I don't want this thread to be about my last one, as I don't want this to become a redundant conversation about what's over and done with.

Audio isn't nearly as dead as people make it out to be. Regardless, there's a reason the "no appreciation threads" is there, because appreciation threads often turn into nothing more than people just dropping links to songs they like, and can quickly become a +1ing mess.

As I said before, you are free to discuss other artists work as long as there is some discussion value in it, and that falls on the OP to give posters a reason to actually discuss what's posted. We just don't need 15 threads on the first page of the audio forum saying, "Your favorite band?", "I like this song", "dubstepz is awsum!", etc. etc... that promote 1 line/word answers.


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Ryskie
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 04:05 PM Reply

At 4/13/13 03:59 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote:

We just don't need 15 threads on the first page of the audio forum saying, "Your favorite band?", "I like this song", "dubstepz is awsum!", etc. etc... that promote 1 line/word answers.

Agreed :)

Buoy
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 07:23 PM Reply

It seems at least a few people think likewise, it would be good to hear what other regs think

At 4/13/13 03:40 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: as long as it comes back around to creation, discussion of other artists techniques or unique talents

Right but I'm arguing that that shouldn't neccesarily have to be the case. I believe there is a potential for deep and interesting discussion about music which gets stifled whenever it isn't directly about music creation.

"Music that gives you the feels" could mean anything to anyone and doesn't at all promote any valid discussion on the topic of creation.

I agree that that particular thread could have been clearer than "the feels", but it still discussed a specific aspect of music and - since we are a bunch of musicians who care about how music works - the natural follow up question is, what is it about these particular songs that brings about these feelings and associations.

Regardless, there's a reason the "no appreciation threads" is there, because appreciation threads often turn into nothing more than people just dropping links to songs they like, and can quickly become a +1ing mess.

This is so far the only actual argument against my position (apart from a circular "we have the general forum for that"/"the rules say so"), it's a fair one but my retort to it is that 1) those kinds of "+1 post count" threads you're talking about are regularly locked anyway, they are easy to spot and lock. 2) I think appreciation threads could work out differently in this forum. As I said there is a remarkable difference between the quality of discussion in here and in the general forum and I DON'T think that would change if we widened the scope a bit.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 07:35 PM Reply

I'm okay with music discussions as long as it doesn't go into genre wars and shit like that.


lel

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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 09:00 PM Reply

let's just have intelligent, civil discussions regarding music appreciation. i don't think people will try to turn them to shit, but if they do and do so consistently then we'll know for sure that it was a bad idea. until then i don't think we have anything to lose by allowing those discussions, imo.


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Chemich
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 10:27 PM Reply

At 4/13/13 09:00 PM, midimachine wrote: let's just have intelligent, civil discussions regarding music appreciation. i don't think people will try to turn them to shit, but if they do and do so consistently then we'll know for sure that it was a bad idea. until then i don't think we have anything to lose by allowing those discussions, imo.

Basically this is what I was thinking, honestly I know it was filtered to the General forum for that very reason. But people that stick to General don't come to Audio for the very reason they know some things they can get away with in General, will not work in Audio.

Then again I could be wrong, worth the trial and error run honestly.

Risk and reward factor y'know? Never what's gonna happen until you actually try it.

At 4/13/13 07:35 PM, Sequenced wrote: I'm okay with music discussions as long as it doesn't go into genre wars and shit like that.

This.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 13th, 2013 @ 11:44 PM Reply

I think it's a mighty fine line being approached, but I'd like to try and discuss. It comes down to who's gonna break first? Heuheaehuaehuaehaueh!!!


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midimachine
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 01:36 AM Reply

At 4/13/13 11:44 PM, ZipZipper wrote: I think it's a mighty fine line being approached, but I'd like to try and discuss. It comes down to who's gonna break first? Heuheaehuaehuaehaueh!!!

shh, adults are talking


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frootza
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 03:20 AM Reply

I don't really care. So we make a few threads about how different artists write their music and try to analyze it in a civilized manner. What's the worst that can happen?

Will implementation result in a downward spiral resulting in chaos and snobbism? Yes.

Will it go through anyway? Probably.

What's certain is that Ryskie had no intention of advertising his own audio. His intention was to discuss the musical craft, and he may very well have started a revolution by doing so.


Check it! :) //// Never stop making music. Play MOTORJOUST!!!Check it! :)

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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 05:54 AM Reply

I think music analysis can be helpful, eg. (link) Oh this is great because......

Something that is related to music production and not just appreciation.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 06:39 AM Reply

At 4/14/13 05:54 AM, DjAbbic wrote: I think music analysis can be helpful, eg. (link) Oh this is great because......

Something that is related to music production and not just appreciation.

I agree, if we do this, we have to do it right. Posts have to have some limit, an outline to prevent the standard dropping below a certain point.
If we decide to open these topics I think the original post should have at least some kind of structure that outlines the discussion to follow, an explicit premise ("This song is a popular track but my view is that it's popular for one reason - it has great production. With that in mind, do you know of other songs like it? What's your view on the long term affect of this on the music industry? What are the key elements in it, and others, that give us the impression it's "well produced" and how would we go about making our own tracks stand out that way (any quick suggestions on topics to read up on?)"
This gives the answers an outline they have to follow to be valid - Answer the question with valid information, provide proof and expand on the original idea.

That's probably not the best example in content, but it shows what I'm trying to say.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 06:56 AM Reply

nah, we shouldn't have to write mini essays for every post. just none of this "huehuehue xD" shit, yea?


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 11:49 AM Reply

At 4/14/13 06:56 AM, midimachine wrote: nah, we shouldn't have to write mini essays for every post. just none of this "huehuehue xD" shit, yea?

And that's what I mean by fine line. It's gonna be hard to keep a steady flowing conversation going that isn't stick up the ass or heauehuheauehauh. "Yeah this band has great production. They did this, this, and this." "Yep...especially in this song and this song." "...yep." "...okay I guess next band." It's worth a try though, says the silly child to the adults.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 12:22 PM Reply

At 4/13/13 09:00 PM, midimachine wrote: let's just have intelligent, civil discussions regarding music appreciation. i don't think people will try to turn them to shit, but if they do and do so consistently then we'll know for sure that it was a bad idea. until then i don't think we have anything to lose by allowing those discussions, imo.

^ totally

Having a music appreciation thread would be great. Obviously threads like "omfg skrillex is the koolest link ur favs here" can and should be deleted, but I mean.. we get those anyway.. But if there was some cool threads where people could get together and bring up something interesting they discovered and have a great conversation about maybe different ways to achieve a sound/feeling/etc, I would think only positive things could happen.

And yeah, it's been pretty dead/boring around here :D I lurk at least twice a day and it's the same discussions over and over and over and over.

do eett.

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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 12:43 PM Reply

What about posting in and raising the quality of some of these already existing threads?

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1335657
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1324658
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1307444

You could also start a Club.

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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 01:10 PM Reply

At 4/14/13 12:43 PM, BrokenDeck wrote: What about posting in and raising the quality of some of these already existing threads?

We already argued against that, man. Most of us don't want to discuss music with general forum people. It may sound elitist but it's the truth. Music discussions here are so much more interesting that it's not even funny.

You could also start a Club.

Stuff like this isn't really ideal. I prefer just making it OK for people to post music appreciation threads on here. If we have just one thread in this forum where people discuss what music they like, it won't hit it off that well, whereas if individual threads are made habitually, they can lead to more meaningful discussion.

I honestly don't think people will just come in spamming threads about how awesome Skrillex is the instant the rule is altered, which I think is the main concern about altering the rule. It may mean that music appreciation threads get posted even if they've been posted before, but what's the big deal?

A new thread where a new guy proposes a discussion on music appreciation will only serve to harbour more discussion instead of repeating old stuff over and over again like zero-bombing threads do, since our music tastes change over time and even the community changes as well. A music-appreciation thread made in one month will have different answers by different people than a music-appreciation thread made a few months later.

The way I see it, the rule should simply be changed to "Please focus discussion on the creation and appreciation of music." That rule implies there should be some form of discussion, rather than in a thread like this where you just post what genre you like, which can easily become spammy.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 01:16 PM Reply

Forgot to add: if this ends up turning the forum into a mess, the staff can just take the rule back to how it was. I don't think it hurts to give it a chance. This forum needs more discussion-related threads among all the contest threads, plugin/sample-sharing threads, 'composer needed' threads and self-advertisements.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 01:26 PM Reply

At 4/14/13 01:10 PM, Step wrote: The way I see it, the rule should simply be changed to "Please focus discussion on the creation and appreciation of music." That rule implies there should be some form of discussion, rather than in a thread like this where you just post what genre you like, which can easily become spammy.

^ I'm full in agreement with this. I highly appreciate and enjoy reading threads where there is a good back-and-forth about artists that we aspire towards and how their styles differ and what's good and bad about them. I find that the discussions held here among musicians about music and other musicians can be quite enriching and enlightening for everyone involved. Anyone who decides to troll or spam can be dealt with, and should it become a huge rampant problem then I do agree that it could easily be reverted back.

Back-From-Purgatory
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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 01:29 PM Reply

At 4/14/13 01:26 PM, HalcyonicFalconX wrote: ^ I'm full in agreement with this. I highly appreciate and enjoy reading threads where there is a good back-and-forth about artists that we aspire towards and how their styles differ and what's good and bad about them. I find that the discussions held here among musicians about music and other musicians can be quite enriching and enlightening for everyone involved. Anyone who decides to troll or spam can be dealt with, and should it become a huge rampant problem then I do agree that it could easily be reverted back.

You... get on skype, I has question for you.

Also... on topic... I promise nothing, but we're talking possibilities.


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Response to let's discuss our discussions Apr. 14th, 2013 @ 07:13 PM Reply

At 4/14/13 01:29 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: ...we're talking possibilities.

Ok... Talking is done... You guys are free to create music appreciation threads...

However, we reserve the right to lock/delete any threads that end up as nothing more than link dumps or +1ing messes. Which I guess should be a given, but needs to be said anyways.

As long as there's some actual discussion going on, go right ahead.


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