At 4/1/13 08:22 AM, TheMason wrote: The problem here is you're still looking at the threat through a Western lense. The ability to keep their population out of poverty is something that would effect a modern, developed country from being a threat. However, the DPRK is more like a feudal system (in fact, many scholars describe Juche and the regime as feudal communism). In short: the misery of the population is of little concern to the Kims (despite their socialist rhetoric).

I guess I am looking through the Western lense, you're right. But I was just making the point that if they haven't even got the resources for something as basic as keeping their citizens fed I don't know how much they can afford to pump into their military. In case you're interested, here is the Vice doc I was referencing in my earlier post, definitely worth a look if you want to see what life is like on the ground in NK Vice Guide To North Korea.

Also, they indoctrinate their children from an early age to kill Americans.

That's fucked up. hehe

So while I do not think military conflict is inevitable...I do not think it is wise to be dismissive because of the improvished state of their population or their economic infrastructure. Afterall, if there is one thing we can be sure of about Pyongyang is that the regime does not give a shit for anyone who is not named Kim.

True, but I think the powers that be in the US, SK, Japan and probably China (who aren't as friendly with NK as most people believe) will have set up some type of anti-warhead programme already for the worst case scenario that they are dumb enough to engage in hostilities. The fact is that they are massively outmatched, and any attempt at starting a war would be dealt with pretty quickly.

Also, I've just finished reading this, 4 reasons to not take the NK threat too seriously.

And it's basically saying that every time the government in NK indoctrinate a new leader they always step up the rhetoric to keep morale high for the citizens. It also takes attention away from the fact that the economy and the people really aren't doing that well. It's a war of words at the moment. No need to waste any sleep over this issue until NK actually does something.

At 4/1/13 05:03 PM, Warforger wrote: Just looking through the comments that video is a joke video and the translation is far off.

Yeah...I've kind of come to that conclusion myself. However, art sometimes imitates life. I have read about in defector accounts that the regime actually portrays the rest of the world in that light and that the DPRK is involved in aid efforts outside their country.

It fooled me because it is an acurate portrayal of actual propaganda.

Their population is told DPRK aid workers are coming to the US to hand out coffee (that isn't made with snow) and cakes! This is one of the reasons that when North Koreans defect...they defect to China. In interviews and the literature, the vast majority of refugees cite the belief that life is worse in the ROK than in the DPRK as why they choose not to try to get to SK after sneaking into China.

Where? ...

The Aquariums of Pyongyang is the account of a DPRK prison camp survivor. While the route to the South is heavily militarized, most go to China because they believe it is much in the ROK than they have it in the North.

Also, they indoctrinate their children from an early age to kill Americans.

... This is a problem even the USSR and China had, they often had to deal with the fact that they just couldn't have as much power as they would like despite making the appearance that they had absolute power. Even Stalin kept from doing things like destroying the Russian Orthodox Church (during WWII he even requested their support for the war)

A few things:
* The DPRK is a small country whereas the USSR and PRC have to control huge land masses.
* The DPRK is ethnically homogenous whereas the USSR and PRC have different ethnicities.
* The Korean culture was very nearly obliterated by Japanese Colonization, allowing Pyongyang to fill the void. So in terms of religion, the regime has been incredibly successful in establishing the Kim family as demi-gods.

The thing is that there is probably very low morale from all but the most elite soldiers (although even that is debatable considering how many high ranking North Korean officials defect). This was the case in Iraq where the military surrendered like crazy during both Gulf wars and in Romania where Ceausescu could not use his military to put down protestors who were trying to do away with Communism.

I'm actually not too familiar with high ranking Generals defecting. As for officials; these tend to be people who have run afowl of the regime and know that Yodok or some worse fate await them...and three generations of their families.

Secondly, we're not talking about Iraq or Romania...but North Korea. The cultures are radically different. In Iraq you have a largely conscript army made up of a diverse population...a population often at odds with each other and with tenuous loyalty to the state. In Romania, you've got people who (although East European) still have Western notions of the Enlightenment.

In NK you have a mythology around the Kim family as well as people who have lived their entire lives in Plato's Cave. War will either bring them victory and riches (in their mind) or death. Either way, things will be better for them.

i think hes just posturing

At 4/3/13 10:47 AM, Cruelti wrote: i think hes just posturing

I think it's obvious that this entire show is derived from internal issues, not external ones.

No, they are not. No one is on their side. While I've yet to read China or Russia's statements on NK's recent aggressive stance, i do know both f them are on really shaky grounds with Nk, especially when it comes to NK's foreign relations.

NK would be gone before they even started anything.

North Korea approves nuclear strike on U.S

I live on long island
should I get the fuck out of here...

At 4/3/13 04:27 PM, 372 wrote: North Korea approves nuclear strike on U.S

I live on long island
should I get the fuck out of here...

No. I highly doubt the Norks have any missile with that kind of range. Now, if you were in Honolulu...

But this is actually really interesting, because there has to come a point where North Korea backs themselves into a corner with their own rhetoric. I don't see how the rhetoric can escalate much beyond this point, now that the US is sending ABMs to Guam and North Korea is blocking South Korean workers who work in Kaesong from entry back into the country.

This will likely end as just another obscure chapter in the big book of North Korean insanity but I can't see exactly how at this point.

At 4/2/13 05:02 PM, TheMason wrote: The Aquariums of Pyongyang is the account of a DPRK prison camp survivor. While the route to the South is heavily militarized, most go to China because they believe it is much in the ROK than they have it in the North.

The only problem I have is that again North Korea doesn't have so much control as to stop the flow of information. You can tell because for a time there was an airlift from Vietnam to South Korea (Vietnam allowed this quietly so as to attract South Korean investment but not openly acknowledge it as to keep North Korea an ally) which North Koreans would go to until it was discovered. The ROK is the preferred destination for North Koreans most of the time, it's just in order to get there they have to go through China and from there go to some other nation like Vietnam, the Phillipines or Thailand and then go to South Korea. Obviously this is really difficult, but is much more plausible than sneaking past an electrical fence.

The problem with staying in China is that China doesn't protect them, it deports them back to North Korea where they're probably killed.

A few things:
* The DPRK is a small country whereas the USSR and PRC have to control huge land masses.
* The DPRK is ethnically homogenous whereas the USSR and PRC have different ethnicities.
* The Korean culture was very nearly obliterated by Japanese Colonization, allowing Pyongyang to fill the void. So in terms of religion, the regime has been incredibly successful in establishing the Kim family as demi-gods.

That doesn't mean that Communist regimes didn't exhibit the same defects everywhere they were implanted. They all followed a similar pattern, inefficiency abundant, fleeting moments of popularity for the regime during a war followed by a general apathy or downright hatred for the regime during peace time etc. etc. The DPRK exhibits these defects more than most states did. Regimes in Eastern Europe tried to convince their people that living in the West was shit, and they failed tremendously. During their existence they all knew how unpopular they were, for example in Hungary when the first elections after WWII were held the Communist won around 10% of the vote even with massive voter fraud and intimidation while another party won a majority of the votes, or better yet in November 1917 the Bolsheviks held elections and they lost them with a mere 20% of the vote. Other Communists got far by using violence against voters, voter fraud, being the only legal party etc. I fail to see how North Korea is any different.

I'm actually not too familiar with high ranking Generals defecting. As for officials; these tend to be people who have run afowl of the regime and know that Yodok or some worse fate await them...and three generations of their families.

Right, and their usual destination is South Korea.

Secondly, we're not talking about Iraq or Romania...but North Korea. The cultures are radically different. In Iraq you have a largely conscript army made up of a diverse population...a population often at odds with each other and with tenuous loyalty to the state. In Romania, you've got people who (although East European) still have Western notions of the Enlightenment.

In NK you have a mythology around the Kim family

You had the same thing in Romania and Iraq. North Korea's regime is the same as those in the USSR or Romania it's just amplified the personality cult. Given the track record for these kinds of regimes I really doubt it has as much influence on the people as the North Korean government would have us believe. I mean Monarchies in general did that kind of thing i.e. infuse religion to justify their rule and they still fell like in Russia, Ottoman Empire, Britain etc. yet they are not around today in the same form. They were only able to capture a minority of people usually, more or less younger, Mao for example was like that and he knew how unpopular he was. He started a campaign where he seemed to have granted people free speech and allowed them to criticize the government. People unleashed scathing criticisms at everyone in the government. Mao then ended the campaign and cracked down on these people. What North Korea is doing is not unique and nothing seems to say that they aren't going in the same direction.

as well as people who have lived their entire lives in Plato's Cave.

Um what? If you disagreed with Plato's conclusions about reality i.e. that what we think is real is actually an illusion and that there is a 2nd reality that is real and contains perfect forms, then you're in the cave. Anyone outside would be to us insane.

War will either bring them victory and riches (in their mind) or death. Either way, things will be better for them.

Again like in Iraq the army is largely conscripted or compelled to serve. North Korea has a larger military than Russia, and it can't even arm it fully much less feed them. I highly doubt that the North Korean military is that motivated to fight.

At 4/3/13 05:28 PM, Warforger wrote: The only problem I have is that again North Korea doesn't have so much control as to stop the flow of information. ... The ROK is the preferred destination for North Koreans most of the time, ...

Actually...yes they do. They control the airwaves as well as the internet pipeline into the country. Defectors are either killed on sight when they return or sent to someplace such as Yodok Prison.

Airlift from Vietnam to S. Korea? Huh? I'm not really sure how that fits into the information flow.

And no...South Korea is NOT the prefered destination. With a few exceptions, the average NK defector plans on staying in China when they leave. Now, when they arrive in China they are exposed to news about SK and the conditions there. There is an underground railroad that tries to get them to either the US or SK after de-programing them about conditions there.

The problem with staying in China is that China doesn't protect them, it deports them back to North Korea where they're probably killed.

Yep.

A few things:

That doesn't mean that Communist regimes didn't exhibit the same defects everywhere they were implanted. ... I fail to see how North Korea is any different.

Because you're not thinking about or addressing the factors I brought up. Also, those countries were unable to control their people's information about the outside world as much as in the DPRK. And this is where your first statement suffers from an erroneous assumption: that some of these defects are universal. See in Russia, China, and East Europe you have countries that had extensive contact with the West before the Commies took control.

In the DPRK, the Kim dynasty came into power over a peasant people whose history and culture had been largely erased by the brutal Japanese colonization. Hell, the Japs even tried to erase the Korean language! In many ways the Kim dynasty has returned the North back to fuedal times.

I'm actually not too familiar with high ranking Generals defecting. As for officials; these tend to be people who have run afowl of the regime and know that Yodok or some worse fate await them...and three generations of their families.

Right, and their usual destination is South Korea.

Part of this is because they have access to information about the outside world. Some of these become disillusioned with their lives and defect. They have knowledge about the truth...they've been diplomats, military attaches, or part of economic missions outside the country.

Fundamentally different from the vast majority of defectors who tend to have either escaped from Yodok (which gives them experience getting through something like the DMZ) or border regions where they can see the lights from China at night.

In NK you have a mythology around the Kim family

You had the same thing in Romania and Iraq. North Korea's regime is the same as those in the USSR or Romania it's just amplified the personality cult. Given the track record for these kinds of regimes I really doubt it has as much influence on the people as the North Korean government would have us believe. I mean Monarchies in general did that kind of thing i.e. infuse religion to justify their rule and they still fell like in Russia, Ottoman Empire, Britain etc. yet they are not around today in the same form. They were only able to capture a minority of people usually, more or less younger, Mao for example was like that and he knew how unpopular he was. He started a campaign where he seemed to have granted people free speech and allowed them to criticize the government. People unleashed scathing criticisms at everyone in the government. Mao then ended the campaign and cracked down on these people. What North Korea is doing is not unique and nothing seems to say that they aren't going in the same direction.

Nope...not the same thing at all.

There is a HUGE difference between a cult of personality and mythology surrounding a monarch. Afterall, monarchies lasted for centuries. It was only replaced whenever aristocrats rediscovered ancient Athenian philosophy and literature.

Secondly, in those other countries you had people who were aware that there were alternatives. In the DPRK you do not have that. Knowledge of other forms have been cut-off.

Finally, in China you have different ethnicities such as different Chinese cultures, Tibetans, Koreans, etc. Same thing in Russia: you have Russians, Pashto, Azerbaijani, Turkmeni, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Slavs, etc. In Iraq you have tribalism that has kept the country seperate since the first settlers in the Middle East. You do not have those ethnic tensions in the DPRK.

as well as people who have lived their entire lives in Plato's Cave.

Um what? If you disagreed with Plato's conclusions about reality i.e. that what we think is real is actually an illusion and that there is a 2nd reality that is real and contains perfect forms, then you're in the cave. Anyone outside would be to us insane.

Okay...you do realize you actually made my point...right? The reality of the average N. Korean has been carefully crafted by the Kim regime. Yes, there are some fractures...but these are dealt with harshly and effectively.

War will either bring them victory and riches (in their mind) or death. Either way, things will be better for them.

Again like in Iraq the army is largely conscripted or compelled to serve. North Korea has a larger military than Russia, and it can't even arm it fully much less feed them. I highly doubt that the North Korean military is that motivated to fight.

Many countries have conscriptions...including S. Korea. Now in Democratic societies where the community exists for the individual...conscription does not work. In Iraq, there was no national unity. Tribal factions undermined loyalty to the Saddam regime.

Now in the DPRK...you have a culture that is centered around filial piety and a collectivism that preaches (similar attitude in China, Japan, and S. Korea) that the individual exists for the community. While I do not completely dismiss the idea that the KPA will crumble...I do not think our experience in Iraq makes the same thing happening in the DPRK predetermined.

At 4/3/13 04:48 PM, Feoric wrote:

... North Korea is blocking South Korean workers who work in Kaesong from entry back into the country.

This scares me the most. Most of the conventional wisdom to this point has been that this is saber rattling to get economic and food aid. That they are closing down the Kaesong Industrial Zone is troubling because that would be inconsistent with those aims. (I know...I may be injecting Western bias into examining the DPRK.)

This will likely end as just another obscure chapter in the big book of North Korean insanity but I can't see exactly how at this point.

During Vietnam there was a low-level war fought along the Korean DMZ. They captured a US Navy vessel. They shot down and imprisoned the aircrew. There were ambushes of patrols along the DMZ. An Army Lt and Sgt were murdered with axes as they tried to cut-down a tree. The ROK president was almost assassinated by DPRK SpecOps. This is called in some circles the 'Second Korean War'.

So there are several options of how this could turn-out.

At 4/3/13 07:51 PM, TheMason wrote: Actually...yes they do. They control the airwaves as well as the internet pipeline into the country. Defectors are either killed on sight when they return or sent to someplace such as Yodok Prison.

Which is the case in countries like Iran or Syria or hell even Iraq.

Airlift from Vietnam to S. Korea? Huh? I'm not really sure how that fits into the information flow.

People in North Korea knew about it and went directly to Vietnam.

And no...South Korea is NOT the prefered destination. With a few exceptions, the average NK defector plans on staying in China when they leave. Now, when they arrive in China they are exposed to news about SK and the conditions there. There is an underground railroad that tries to get them to either the US or SK after de-programing them about conditions there.

Not sure about that. Otherwise this still proves my point, the extent of indoctrination is not that great.

Also, those countries were unable to control their people's information about the outside world as much as in the DPRK.

That is difficult to measure.

And this is where your first statement suffers from an erroneous assumption: that some of these defects are universal. See in Russia, China, and East Europe you have countries that had extensive contact with the West before the Commies took control.

To some extent the Koreans did as well. For example Vladivostok was originally a Korean city but the Koreans were deported to North Korea.

In the DPRK, the Kim dynasty came into power over a peasant people whose history and culture had been largely erased by the brutal Japanese colonization. Hell, the Japs even tried to erase the Korean language! In many ways the Kim dynasty has returned the North back to fuedal times.

Again the question is to what extent were such attempts successful.

Nope...not the same thing at all.

There is a HUGE difference between a cult of personality and mythology surrounding a monarch. Afterall, monarchies lasted for centuries. It was only replaced whenever aristocrats rediscovered ancient Athenian philosophy and literature.

Right, that does not mean that the majority of people supported the Monarchy but more that they lacked leadership to do bring down the monarchy. The aristocrats did just that. The lesson was that no matter how much you try to indoctrinate people if you oppress them to the point of starvation they won't buy it.

Secondly, in those other countries you had people who were aware that there were alternatives. In the DPRK you do not have that. Knowledge of other forms have been cut-off.

Not really. At the very least things have been getting worse in North Korea, in fact early on North Korea was actually relatively prosporous. However during the 90's there was a famine, now food rations shrink etc. etc. so they at the very least know that this regime isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

Finally, in China you have different ethnicities such as different Chinese cultures, Tibetans, Koreans, etc. Same thing in Russia: you have Russians, Pashto, Azerbaijani, Turkmeni, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Slavs, etc. In Iraq you have tribalism that has kept the country seperate since the first settlers in the Middle East. You do not have those ethnic tensions in the DPRK.

North Korea has minorities, there are around several thousand Muslims there even. But that doesn't change my point, if you starve your people they won't believe what you have to say.

Okay...you do realize you actually made my point...right? The reality of the average N. Korean has been carefully crafted by the Kim regime. Yes, there are some fractures...but these are dealt with harshly and effectively.

So you don't understand the Allegory of the Cave? North Korea is perhaps the closest thing there is to Plato's Republic today although it doesn't appear to be as oppressive at Plato's Republic. According to Plato if you didn't agree with his view of reality and the forms then you were in the cave, therefore you and me are in the cave and have spent our lives there. To him getting out of the cave means that you reject our reality as an illusion and have discovered the real world of perfect forms through thought. Plato from there thought that hose who made it out of the Cave understand what justice and what good is, therefore they should rule over everyone else as a tyrannical theology.

Many countries have conscriptions...including S. Korea. Now in Democratic societies where the community exists for the individual...conscription does not work. In Iraq, there was no national unity. Tribal factions undermined loyalty to the Saddam regime.

The point however was that this is a rather large amount which the government has difficulty maintaining.

Now in the DPRK...you have a culture that is centered around filial piety and a collectivism that preaches (similar attitude in China, Japan, and S. Korea) that the individual exists for the community. While I do not completely dismiss the idea that the KPA will crumble...I do not think our experience in Iraq makes the same thing happening in the DPRK predetermined.

I guess it's hard to determine unless people actually went to war.

For any war to happen, I think North Korea would have to make the first move, and they really can't. They don't have the technology to send a nuke our way, their air force it out dated, and they don't have enough fuel to make a trip here anyway, and the same for the Navy. Really, Kim Jong Un is just trying to get attention by threatening bigger countries. His father did it too.

At 4/3/13 11:35 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 4/3/13 07:51 PM, TheMason wrote: Actually...yes they do. They control the airwaves as well as the internet pipeline into the country. Defectors are either killed on sight when they return or sent to someplace such as Yodok Prison.

Which is the case in countries like Iran or Syria or hell even Iraq.

No...not to the extreme in the DPRK. Radios and TVs sold in the DPRK can only be tuned to state run media...whereas in Iran, Syria, or Iraq they had access to satellite broadcasts and news outlets from all over the region and the world. Also see my point below about the jammers.

In those countries people had/have access to the internet to a point that is unthinkable by many in NK. (Doctors have to work about four years to afford a refrigerator.)

Airlift from Vietnam to S. Korea? Huh? I'm not really sure how that fits into the information flow.

People in North Korea knew about it and went directly to Vietnam.

And no...South Korea is NOT the prefered destination. With a few exceptions, the average NK defector plans on staying in China when they leave. Now, when they arrive in China they are exposed to news about SK and the conditions there. There is an underground railroad that tries to get them to either the US or SK after de-programing them about conditions there.

Not sure about that. Otherwise this still proves my point, the extent of indoctrination is not that great.

There are several books on DPRK refugees. The Aquariums of Pyongyang and Escape from North Korea to name two. This preference for China over the South is prevelant in interviews with North Koreans who escape to either the US or SK via the underground railroad after de-programming.

In no way does it prove your point. The indoctrination is so bad that they initially do not want to go to a country where they will be reunited with branches of their family. They have to be de-programmed before leaving China for the US or SK.

Also, those countries were unable to control their people's information about the outside world as much as in the DPRK.

That is difficult to measure.

Not at all. From the DMZ you can see the jammers pointed to keep receivers in the DPRK from receiving radio frequences from outside the country. Also, the DPRK has the ability to jam GPS signals...so it is safe to assume they can jam communication satellite signals too.

And this is where your first statement suffers from an erroneous assumption: that some of these defects are universal. See in Russia, China, and East Europe you have countries that had extensive contact with the West before the Commies took control.

To some extent the Koreans did as well. For example Vladivostok was originally a Korean city but the Koreans were deported to North Korea.

Uh...irrelevent?

In the DPRK, the Kim dynasty came into power over a peasant people whose history and culture had been largely erased by the brutal Japanese colonization. Hell, the Japs even tried to erase the Korean language! In many ways the Kim dynasty has returned the North back to fuedal times.

Again the question is to what extent were such attempts successful.

They were very successful. Hence the fear of DPRK refugees to try and make it to SK or the US. Hell, many females are so scared of what they will find in SK and US that they sell themselves to Chinese farmers as brides...opting for sexual slavery instead of trying to go South!

There is a HUGE difference between a cult of personality and mythology surrounding a monarch. Afterall, monarchies lasted for centuries. It was only replaced whenever aristocrats rediscovered ancient Athenian philosophy and literature.

Right, that does not mean that the majority of people supported the Monarchy but more that they lacked leadership to do bring down the monarchy. The aristocrats did just that. The lesson was that no matter how much you try to indoctrinate people if you oppress them to the point of starvation they won't buy it.

Nope, not the lesson at all. After all, in feudal Europe the peasantry were starved for years and did not rebel until the Aristocracy came into conflict with the ruling monarchy.

Feudalism was not brought down by the suffering of the people resulting in an uprising...it was conflicts between the Monarchy and the Aristocracy (and/or a new merchant class).

Secondly, in those other countries you had people who were aware that there were alternatives. In the DPRK you do not have that. Knowledge of other forms have been cut-off.

Not really. At the very least things have been getting worse in North Korea, in fact early on North Korea was actually relatively prosporous. However during the 90's there was a famine, now food rations shrink etc. etc. so they at the very least know that this regime isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

The economic stagnation occurred long before the famines in the 1990s. The North held the edge until the 1960s over the South then their economy froze in time. About two or three generations of North Koreans have been born since then.

North Korea has minorities, there are around several thousand Muslims there even. But that doesn't change my point, if you starve your people they won't believe what you have to say.

Source please. Every source I have ever seen shows that the DPRK is ethnically very homogenous. The only tiny minorities mentioned are Chinese with very few Japanese.

Okay...you do realize you actually made my point...right?

So you don't understand the Allegory of the Cave?

I understand the allegory as well as its metaphysical meaning. And in no way does it support what you're saying. The Kim regime is able to project their view of reality upon the NK people to such a magnitude that their fellow prisoners will beat down those who try to interject reality into the collective consciousness.

While your paragraph displays your ability to understand the allegory according to the larger work of The Republic, but you offer nothing that contradicts what I've said. The point is the indoctrination is to a point in the DPRK that it is the closest regime that we know of that has been able to so completely bring the allegory to life!

Now in the DPRK...you have a culture that is centered around filial piety and a collectivism that preaches (similar attitude in China, Japan, and S. Korea) that the individual exists for the community. While I do not completely dismiss the idea that the KPA will crumble...I do not think our experience in Iraq makes the same thing happening in the DPRK predetermined.

I guess it's hard to determine unless people actually went to war.

Not really. We have seen such ferocity in several enemies we have fought in the second half of the 20th Century:
* Taliban
* Vietcong
* North Vietnamese Army (also starved)
* Japanese (in the 1980s a soldier who had been cut-off on some island stormed out of the jungle to attack American tourists...thinking World War II was NOT over!)

At 4/5/13 03:56 AM, Dignatio wrote: For any war to happen, I think North Korea would have to make the first move, and they really can't. They don't have the technology to send a nuke our way, their air force it out dated, and they don't have enough fuel to make a trip here anyway, and the same for the Navy. Really, Kim Jong Un is just trying to get attention by threatening bigger countries. His father did it too.

* An attack on the US would be a miscalculation that we are soft and our population would prevent another war following our war fatigue following Iraq, Afghanistan, and even Vietnam. He's not looking to take us over.
* He has enough WMD to attack US forces in Korea and Japan.
* The Korean terrain blunts the effectiveness of air power and even mechanized armor and infantry.
* Infiltration tunnels and mass of forces against ROK and USFK infantry could make taking ground extremely bloody.
* DPRK military doctrine emphasizes ground attacks. Air and missile forces exist only to take out US airpower that could respond to a surprise attack as well as close air support of ground forces.

I just saw on Knology news about North Korea planning to nuke the United States. I guess I was wrong in saying this new guy wasn't worse than Kim Jong-il, he most likely is in terms of threats. Of course, it probably wouldn't be called WWIII because WWII was caused by the problems left unsolved by WWI and I don't know much of any role NK played in the second world war, or the first for that matter. In fact, the communist party wasn't established in the country until about the 1950's.

If only they had Snickers in North Korea

At 4/10/13 08:05 AM, hecticjon wrote: Honest question: what does North Korea have that America and everyone else in the world don't? Aside from the most delusional leader on the fucking planet.

They have a real life version of the book 1984, along with the most brutal prison system in the world. They also have their own exclusive god (Kim Il Sung), which no other nation worships. Government mandated infanticide for those born disabled or to prisoners. Handicap-free nation! Oh, and the majority of the population is starving and/or malnourished. And recently, the sole country to put nuke claims in its "constitution."

Come to think of it, NK has a lot the rest of the world doesn't. Of course, only a sadist would be proud of that.

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Also, I have had these two thoughts.

1. I actually hope war does happen, with North Korea being wiped out and Korean reunification afterward. I know about the economic consequences and the refugee situation, but something in me wants NK gone. I have looked at articles involving the gulags, the starvation, etc. My humanitarian side is showing here. Do you think I should repress it, given the consequences of war actually happening?

2. We need to give Kim Jong Un a beanie cap like the one Meg Griffin wears on Family Guy. Then we take an image of him with the cap, and below it put "SHUT UP, MEG" or "SHUT UP, KIM" in response to all his bluster.

At 4/10/13 08:28 PM, Th-e wrote: My humanitarian side is showing here.

I can understand compassion toward the citizen of North Korea, but tens of millions of civilian deaths hardly seems humanitarian to me.

At 4/13/13 01:49 AM, Korriken wrote: well, the lab coats say the world is overpopulated anyway.

But Seoul and Tokyo (as well as the rest of SK and Japan) are models for how to most ecologically live as a society

thing that's annoying me about the whole situation is the entire world is just standing there, watching Fat Bastard make his preparations, giving him attention.

My guess is attention and face saving is all he wants. I predict he'll fire his missle into the ocean, maybe follow with another "test" and then back down claiming he got his victory for his people.

Fat Bastard might be more or less the supreme ruler of NK, but in the end, eliminating one person is simple enough, just ask Russia. they do it often enough.

What's the worst thing a dictator can do? Risk their power. Invading an unpopular country is fine, like when Iraq fought Iran. However, picking a fight with a big boy like the US is nothing but Un deciding to end his rule, and I bet that's the last thing he wants.

Russia Russia(Lay that Missile Down)

As close as I can manage to a real song about laying missiles down..

At 4/13/13 12:19 PM, Korriken wrote: which, to me, is precisely WHY we should drop missiles on his launch platforms. what's he going to do? go to war? that would be his end. Drop missiles on his launch platforms, drop missiles on his military runways, and say, "keep messing with us, we got plenty more."

That's not the message that would get accross. The message that would get accross is that Un was justified in ratchetting up the intensity, and war would be the likely result.

Yes and Saddam simply letting inspectors in would have neutered Bush's excuse to go in and take him out. Gaddafi would still be alive today had he not began killing his own civilians. Assad's day is coming for the same reason.

Saddam didn't really have any power by that point. After the first Gulf War Saddam's power was severely limited and his country was a mess. The act that ended Saddam's power was invading Kuwait, not being insolent with the UN inspectors.

At 4/13/13 12:53 PM, Korriken wrote: Strictly from a military standpoint, this is how I would bring an end to this problem.

If the world lets NK continue doing what it's going, it's not going to end well. If NK gets nuclear missile capability, it's going to use it to constantly make demands.

thats why there is a "no negotiation with terrorists policy"

What needs to happen is when Fat Bastard sets up a missile, the missile needs to be destroyed before it even leaves the ground.

thing that knowing the way NK has with missiles, it will happen alone

At 4/14/13 03:18 AM, Korriken wrote:

At 4/13/13 07:01 PM, kakalxlax wrote:

thats why there is a "no negotiation with terrorists policy"

Problem is, we're negotiating with them. When we agree to send them aid in order to stop doing whatever it is they're doing at the moment to piss people off, we're negotiating.

and how did it work so for?

At 4/14/13 03:18 AM, Korriken wrote: Problem is, we're negotiating with them. When we agree to send them aid in order to stop doing whatever it is they're doing at the moment to piss people off, we're negotiating.

Depends, most of the people who provide the aide do it for humanitarian reasons not to pander politically.

the fact that they shelled Yeonpyeong island, which is an act of war, and didn't get crushed beneath a wave of SK and American military might shows that we're being weak in front of them.

Um that shit happens all the time. The Soviets for example back in the 80's shot down an American jet, these tense events happen all the time.

The fact that they give out overt threats and get nothing in response is showing weakness.

On who? The North Koreans for not exacting their threats or us for taking them seriously?

The fact that they can test fire missiles and get no response is showing weakness.

They got a response, it's just no one really takes them that seriously.

NK knows we don't want a fight and they're using that to their advantage.

NK also doesn't want a fight either.

I'll put it like this, there is GOING to be a war eventually. Problem is, the longer we delay that war, the stronger NK gets. Once they develop a nuclear warhead they can put on a missile, it's game over. Like I said, if you think NK is crazy now, let them have an actual nuclear missile.

Debatable because if anything the opposite has happened; they've gotten weaker. Ever since the fall of the USSR they've been less able to feed their people and their economy has gotten even worse.

Also, if other nations stopped sending them aid, the entire country would collapse and the military would most likely revolt and toss Fat Bastard out on his ass, and probably fill him full of hot lead.

.....And what would they do? Unite with South Korea? And no North Korea already is one of the most isolated and poorest nations in the world, it should've fallen a long time ago. If they lose aid now what would probably happen is well nothing other than more purges.

other nations, like China, are keeping them on life support by sending them food and fuel enough to keep the military going.

Everyone is at this point because the aftermath of the fall of the NK regime would be too great.

Any major crisis in China to the point where they can't afford to support NK and NK is toast. Problem is, once that happens, NK has little choice but to go to war.

I'm sure if you asked anyone as late as 1988 what will happen between the Soviet Union and the USA and they would say a war. Obviously it didn't end up like that. Similarly I'd doubt that you can predict NK will go to war.

the fact that they shelled Yeonpyeong island, which is an act of war, and didn't get crushed beneath a wave of SK and American military might shows that we're being weak in front of them.

Um that shit happens all the time. The Soviets for example back in the 80's shot down an American jet, these tense events happen all the time.

The difference being war in the 80's with the Soviets would most likely of ended in a Nuclear WW

At 4/15/13 10:21 AM, Korriken wrote: true, but they're feeding the NK military machine and it needs to stop. I'm amazed that these 'humanitarian' organizations haven't gotten the memo that NK military seizes food shipments from their civilians and use it to feed the military.

There's multiple layers going on here. First off, any aid of any sort to an oppressive regime's people is aid to the regime. Even in cases where the regime does not take any of the aid from the people. Many think that food and medical supplies are not fungible, but they are. When aid is given to the people of a country that is less money, effort, and time the regime needs to spend on its citizens. For those regimes that actually would spend their money on the people (see Vietnam and many of the communist dictatorships) that money, which is no longer needed to be spent thnk to the aid, goes right back into the leaders' hands. In the more common case where a regime wouldn't be spending the money there either wy, the regime still gets the bonus of a more satisfied populous, which allows the regime to be more efficient, powerful and keep the will of their people longer. So ignorance is one factor.

The other factors are either a very blind naivete or an agreement with those in power. Some people are just so naive that they believe the gift is all that matters, not whether the gift is effective or useful (an example of this are those who give highway beggars money). Their gifts are FOB (shipping term) meaning that once they part with the gift, they no longer care what happens to it. Then there are those groups which tend to attract many idealogues who border on extremism, most often from the left, who don't mind if the warlord/dictators get some of it because they honestly believe that the warlord/dictator is fighting the good fight.

Maybe, but that's a standoff between 2 nuclear superpowers. we're talking about North Korea, a pesky gnat with a loud buzz just waiting to be swatted. there is no mutually assured destruction to deter us from going on and taking them out... not yet anyway. Once North Korea develops nuclear missiles, they will become a far bigger problem when they aim nuclear missiles at neighboring countries and US military bases.

You're very much underestimating here. When it comes to North Korea's ability to lay Japan and SOuth Korea to waste all nuclear wepons would do is add a degree of expedience. North Korea has a massive army and a large enough arsenal to accomplish severe destruction of both SK and Japan long before any outside powers (save China due to proximity) could really stop them. It's one thing to stop an army bent on strategic victory, it's a very different thing stopping one that is merely looking to create as much destruction as physically possible.

The difference between non-nuclear and nuclear Korea really only affects the medium range targets (Hawaii, Guam, Okinawa), and possbily long range ones (West Coast).

In a nutshell? Us for not putting a stop to the shenanigans. It wouldn't be all that hard to show NK who's boss. their military, outside of infantry, is very weak. They have have a lot of artillery emplacements, but even that is cold war era and wouldn't stand up to American weapons. They still rely on cold war era anti air artillery guns, none of which I don't think can reach the B2's maximum height of 50,000 feet.

That's nice and all, but you're forgetting the biggest obstacle to shutting Korea down. The 180 MILLION allied civilians within easy striking distances of their antiquated, but extremely large military. Close enough that NK could do flat out inhuman amounts of damage before our military readiness in th area could stamp out their offensive capabilities.

and THAT is exactly the problem. no one is taking them seriously. to be more specific, no one is putting them in their place.

How to you shut up a petulant child? By starving them of attention, not by engaging their attention. War is the utmost engagement.

You never know. It could very well be that the military rises up, kills the Kim family, then asks to merge with the south, even if just for food and fuel aid. If the situation gets bad enough, crazy things can happen. and looking at the situation in North Korea, it very well may happen.

Not likely. Most foreign affairs experts think that Un is ratcheting things up because the military doesn't like him. The military thinks he's too weak and soft. I find very unlikely the hardest of the hardliners in NK will ever voluntarily join the south.

At the end of the day, Both Koreas want to merge, naturally both Koreas want to be the one in charge. However, if the situation gets bad enough in North Korea, the military brass may come together and decide that the Kim family is going to take them and their families down and do something about it. Then, without a cult of personality to hold the people together, something will have to give in order to prevent utter chaos from erupting.

The military leadership IS the cult of personality there.

The soviet union also lacked a strong cult of personality figure to rally behind.

WHAT!?!? Are you even trying to insinuate the Lenin is any less of a God to the USSR Russian than Il Sung is o the North Koreans? The USSR had a very deep cult of personality, so deep that the people looked the other way when those personalities raped everything that they claimed was for the people.

The military can't unseat Fat Bastard because his grandfather's 'Great Leader' legacy is about the only thing holding the country together. If the military were to purge the Kim family, all hell would break loose. Also, none of the military leaders want to piss off Fat Bastard because he can very easily have them executed, perhaps even along with their entire family, with no trial. The only way the military could really rein him in would be all of the high ranking officers agreeing that they are in charge and not him.

The military has more power than Un does. I wouldn't be surprised if it's shown that Un is nothing more than a very well made marionette.

Also their media is locked down tightly, given that even their televisions and radios are preset to only receive specific channels, and modifying your equipment is illegal. the equipment also had to be registered with the government, is subject to random inspections and NK citizens have to get permission to even purchase one.

But videos and such from South Korea are smuggled in to North Korea like crazy. The state may have control over the broadcasts, but the people do see a lot of the outside world from other mediums.

Oh, and side note. Stop calling him Fat Bastard. We get the point, you don't respect Un. Neither do any of us. However, instead of conveying your disrespect of him, you're oly conveying your immaturity and making youelf look foolish. Just call him by his name, and let the disrepect come out in the tone of your arguments.

When a country has nukes, you don't get to just blow them up. NK has nukes, shitty nukes, but nukes nonetheless.

Leading nuclear experts have said all it will take to end life as we know is is the detonation of 10 warheads ANYWHERE on Earth. We shouldn't be so worried about NK. We should save our pants shitting for India and Pakistan. Much more likely to go crazy, fire nukes, and kill us all dead.

At 4/15/13 10:21 AM, Korriken wrote: The soviet union also lacked a strong cult of personality figure to rally behind.

Stalin's cult of personality is what Kim il-Sung based his model on, fyi.

At 4/16/13 10:24 AM, Korriken wrote: and guess whose children didn't inherit daddy's rule when he died. Stalin's cult of personality worked until Stalin died. Of course, given his successor botched everything by denouncing Stalin's use of repression, which hastened the demise of the soviet union.

I don't see how that's relevant. You made the claim that "the soviet union also lacked a strong cult of personality figure to rally behind" and that's not true.

At 4/16/13 03:43 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: When a country has nukes, you don't get to just blow them up. NK has nukes, shitty nukes, but nukes nonetheless.

Leading nuclear experts have said all it will take to end life as we know is is the detonation of 10 warheads ANYWHERE on Earth. We shouldn't be so worried about NK. We should save our pants shitting for India and Pakistan. Much more likely to go crazy, fire nukes, and kill us all dead.

North Korea would need hundreds of its nukes just to end all life on America

@Feo and Korri

Stalin died in 1953, can't you both be right on this one? But in terms of time frame Korri seems correct to me. In the same paragraph he mentions increasing the freedom of the media.