Flash vs Toonboom?

[BabySteps]

I've used both, and i've gotten REALLY familiar with flash, but enjoy the features of toon boom.
i feel with toon boom, i can make my animation look so much better than i could with flash.
but with flash, i can animate faster than with toon boom and it's laid out better.

the cons of flash is that it crashes more than it should and brush strokes are sloppy
the pros are that it's easy to use, better laid out, and can operate faster on it.

the cons of TB is that it takes ME longer to animate with it.
the pros are that it seems to look better and has a lot more features animation wise.(excluding action script)

which do you prefer, toon boom? or flash?

discuss.

[devilsgarage]

I used to work with the earlier versions of toonboom, till I landed a job in the broadcast animation industry.
From my experience only a handful of companies that I worked with were using toonboom, either because they had a pretty decent budget to work with (time=money) or was eyeing for a more traditional look in the art direction.

Since the last seven years I have been working extensively with Flash, knowing that with each version Adobe is not exactly being pro-animator (rather pro interactive) and thus I have been slowly moving back to toonboom.

At 2/12/13 07:26 PM, BabySteps wrote: I've used both, and i've gotten REALLY familiar with flash, but enjoy the features of toon boom.
i feel with toon boom, i can make my animation look so much better than i could with flash.
but with flash, i can animate faster than with toon boom and it's laid out better.

the cons of flash is that it crashes more than it should and brush strokes are sloppy
the pros are that it's easy to use, better laid out, and can operate faster on it.

the cons of TB is that it takes ME longer to animate with it.
the pros are that it seems to look better and has a lot more features animation wise.(excluding action script)

which do you prefer, toon boom? or flash?

discuss.

[PeterSatera]

Ive used flash for over a decade, and toon boom for about what 8 years...and the two are fantastic.

Toonboom is far superior for animation, and although you've gained more experience from flash, if you stick it out with toonboom you'll become very fast with it, especially when you take some time out to learn the shorcuts. TBStudio has loads of features that destroy flash, but the onion skinning is pathetic. Animate pro however is far superior in everyway.

We're talking animation here though, not coding.
I do a mix of both, especially since they are sister exporters. I've always wanted to do a flash v toonboom video but i just havent had time. After showing some animators toonboom, they do usually convert. So don't think of it as changing from one to other, think of it as expanding your palette.

Just wait until you add more apps to your animation palette. Such as 3D, aftereffects, a sound program, premier, etc. Program integration is extremely important.

If you want to know what toonboom can do over flash and vice versa i can complete a list, but if youve used it for a while, you may already know.

[devilsgarage]

At 2/13/13 11:28 AM, PeterSatera wrote:

If you want to know what toonboom can do over flash and vice versa i can complete a list, but if youve used it for a while, you may already know.

Hey PeterSatera
Can you go ahead and shoot that list of pros and cons, Im curious how it compares with Animate Pro

[Max-Vador]

i can never give up flash. i use way to many actionscripted elements in my animation

[BabySteps]

At 2/13/13 01:46 PM, thedevilsgarage wrote:

At 2/13/13 11:28 AM, PeterSatera wrote:

Hey PeterSatera
Can you go ahead and shoot that list of pros and cons, Im curious how it compares with Animate Pro

I also am curious to hear this, because I know Peter has more exp with both programs.
I've seen his animations on stick page. But I believe that's 3D??

[PeterSatera]

It's usually a Mix. :)

So: Pros and Cons with ToonBoom. I'll start with the basics and head into features.

FLASH v TOON BOOM ANIMATE PRO and TOON BOOM STUDIO.
1. The TB Community v Flash:
So it may sound like a basic plus, but if you're looking to learn, there are hundreds of tutorials on flash rather than toonboom. Meaning accessibility and possibly your learning curve wonâEUTMt be as steep. YouTube is littered with Flash, but it also contains some basic toon boom guys, which is up on the increase.

2. Action Script and Nodes.
Toon Boom Animate Pro depends on a Nodal System. A system which you'll like or hate. Incase you donâEUTMt know what it is. A nodal system is when plugging in an instruction which gets plugged into another instruction to gain a desired effect. For instance To get 3D perspective in ToonBoom Animate Pro you may say plug in a Null node which is your handle into a camera node, into an X axis node, into a Y axis node into a Z axis (donâEUTMt get me wrong, this isnâEUTMt how you do it, but it explains the system you would have to work with). So it depends on a hierarchical system. If you've never worked with it before, it can be daunting. But it's powerful. Very, you can even create stereoscopic films for 3D. Toon Boom Studio does not support Nodes, so it's usable out of the box. It doesn't however have the features animate pro does. The nodal system is where you create your glows, blurs etc you would use in flash too.

Here you can see the nodal system in TBAnimate Pro:
http://www.gagneint.com/Final%20site/Animation/Saga_of_Rex/I nterface_ToonBoom.jpg

Action Script has a clear advantage as there is always someone who has tried to do what you have, and if not there is a good chance you'll find someone who will. The clear distinction between the two is that with action script you can program in a loader. I have yet to see this be done with nodes. Meaning if you depend on the SWF format, like 99% of the NG's community does, you'll most likely want to load a project and not depend on a high speed net connection. However personally I hate the SWF loader, which is why I stopped depending on it. It's also why Newgrounds should chuck it completely and go with the movie formats, because right now they close the door on every other animator. (This is another debate).

3. Format Support. Exporting and Importing.
Now, yes, they both export SWF. But Flashes SWF exporter is always up-to-date with the version of Flash Pro you own. Toon Boom AP and Studio are behind however I believe it to be intentional. So no matter what flash you export from toon boom, your flash version regardless of how old it is will import it.

Other support IâEUTMd like to put in Toon Boom's favour is the Raster Exporter, eg. MP4, MOV, AVI etc. In flash when you export a movie, you need to be aware of Effects which are created in movie clips, action script which creates timeline changes or effects and most importantly imported bitmaps. Import a jpeg, png, gif, anything which is raster to flash. Tween it slowly, zooming in or out, or left to right and you will know that the effect desired is never obtained. ItâEUTMs not smooth. Ever. It creeps from one state to the other pixelating in and out of its shape. As an artist or animator, youâEUTMll no doubt be somewhat of a perfectionist, and this is unacceptable. Flash puts a cap on pretty much anyone who wants to mix raster and vector and export a clean smooth animation. Vector exports well in a variety of formats from flash, however bitmap is absolutely appalling, even when exported back to bitmap. People have therefore turned to compositing programs like Adobe, After effects to blend these seamlessly. Another reason why AE now supports integration with the swf format.

Toon Boom on the other hand is built not for interactive media, but for animation. Therefore import a Jpeg, or bitmap, Tween it and when exporting to raster watch it transition smoothly, like a high end Premier, or After Effects application. However ToonBoom still falls when depending on flashâEUTMs player. Tweening Raster in that player causes the same undesirable effect in the original application. Over the years they have both slowly got better, but flash is very far behind in this area, as well as many others. So if integration and making movies for something like vimeo and youtube is your goal, you need to consider whatâEUTMs important.

Importing. Now flash has a great importer for things like video, as itâEUTMs designed with web in mind. So when you import a video, it wants to inbed a linked file and create you an mp4 to link to. Which is great if you want that. However bring in something like a black and white PNG with transparent background and hope to fill that in and forget it. To have your traditional animation manageable like a vector graphic youâEUTMre forced to convert by âEUoetracingâEU it. This causes pixilation and odd effects on smooth lines. ItâEUTMs also painstakingly long to do, with a considerable amount of testing to get your images looking right. Toon Boom Studio and Animate Pro handle Twain Acquiring. Meaning stick an image in your scanner hit scan, and also ask it to vectorize and it will pop up a preview window allowing you to decide on what you want it to look like before you commit to the change.

Such as nice pencil scanned art:
http://i.imgur.com/8OyF0.jpg

4. Drawing and Drawing Tools in The Application. Toon Boom v Flash.
Now this is where I become one sided to Toon Boom, because Flash irritates me because itâEUTMs so poorly done. Despite what many people think. Now try bare with me on this, it can get a bit confusing. In Flash, when you have the brush tool, and make a stroke of a smiley face at 100% that works fine, you then decide to draw eyelashes, still at 100%. Thats fine. Then you decide, that they are looking a bit odd, and wish to zoom in, to get a better handle on it, and use your tablets full size to make a nice broad smooth single stroke per eyelash. You zoom in to 200%, and suddenly youâEUTMre working with no longer the same brush size as 100%. YouâEUTMre working with a brush size of 50%. Creating an eyelash which is not as thick as the originals you drew, making details somewhat problematic for any artist who has come from any paint package or traditional animation.

Flash has decided that it would ALWAYS relate the brush size to your screen size, not pixel size, nor the canvas, nor the magnifying glass. Ive mentioned this to Adobe, and suggested they could create a simple on and off button in the brush properties which would allow us to keep this relative to the pixel size. Obviously they donâEUTMt a crap though. Toon Boom on the other hand is like Photoshop. When you zoom in on Photoshop, the brush size is still the same as you started, youâEUTMve JUST zoomed in. The same applies to Toon Boom, so brush strokes are consistent from character to character, from outline to eye detail.

You could always use the pencil tool people say, and then convert it. But the pencil tool is a single thickness, and why should we have to convert every frame from line to brush.

Another feature Toon Boom has I like is the canvas rotation, At any point you chose to rotate to draw at any angle, like the later photoshops, meaning you donâEUTMt have to rotate your massive tablet, you rotate the canvas to suit the way your hand likes to make strokes. Something flash doesnâEUTMt have.

Colour is another area. I actually like flashâEUTMs colour picker, itâEUTMs easy to use, but to be honest itâEUTMs fairly similar to Toon Booms, so similar that you feel right at home choosing colours and making palettes. However there is on distinct area which separates them, And once again, Flash loses out. Massively. In toon boom, you create palet

[PeterSatera]

Sorry about that...i'll continue here:

Colour is another area. I actually like flashâEUTMs colour picker, itâEUTMs easy to use, but to be honest itâEUTMs fairly similar to Toon Booms, so similar that you feel right at home choosing colours and making palettes. However there is on distinct area which separates them, And once again, Flash loses out. Massively. In toon boom, you create palettes to start with. Because itâEUTMs a professional package, it expects that you possibly know what colour palettes you need, and what colour decisions youve already confirmed through possibly concepting. So you make a library of colour. So say i may a palette, and this palette is titled Jacob, a character I have. In there I decide that I make a colour for his skin, a colour for his tshirt, and a colour for his Jeans. Say I create a frame by frame animation of 1000 frames, then realise Jacobs jeans are hardly visible when he is out at night in the forest. They are too dark blue and itâEUTMs merging with the background atmosphere. In flash, if i wanted to change that colour, iâEUTMd select the colour, and go through it, frame by frame colouring in his jeans. Spending hours of work - and say this isnâEUTMt for fun, say this is for a client then youâEUTMve waster hours. In toon boom because you made a palette for this character, that colour is assigned to your library. All you do is double click your palette colour adjust it, and watch your entire animation alter with the colour. This means you do though have to make palettes, but if your production values are strong, then you realise why this is necessary.

Flash has something though I like too. As this is another reason why software integration into your own pipeline will be important. FlashâEUTMs movie clip allows you to use blending modes. Once adobe got a hold of it, they changed what movie clips can do. So now, you can create an entire animation in traditional pencil. Scan it in, import to flash, and make every sequence a movie clip and use say the multiply layer and paint underneath it. This means export to SWF is probably not the final plan, but guaranteed it will make your animation look like it was done traditionally, rather than with a vector program. Something IâEUTMm very fond of, and looks like professional animation, such as Batman, The animated Series, Disney etc. I should also mention though, that Toon Boom is like photoshop, where you can create your own type of brushes. Animate pro, is more sophisticate in this area than studio.

I should add, a plus for flash is that Onion Skinned is practically unlimited. Whereas in Toon Boom Studio itâEUTMs limited to Plus 3 keys, and Minus 3 Key drawings. In Animate pro, itâEUTMs like flash, which allows you to expand a massive onion skinning area.

5. Both flash and Toon Boom have bones, so if you like bones, they both have them. Both IK and FK.

6. VCam v 3D.
With Flash, Vcam is flat. ThereâEUTMs no persepective, its like using a zoom lens. But when you physically move into an object, the perspective changes, objects nearer to you will dominate more space than things which were in the distance. When zooming all things simply get bigger at the same size ratio. Unless you tween the objects individually. In Toon Boom you work with a âEUoecameraâEU. This camera dictates what will be see in the screen. And whats best is you donâEUTMt have to wait for actionscript to make the change and export it to see it. ItâEUTMs all infront of you, in real time on the stage. Layers are set with distances apart in the Z axis to give depth. Like the Multiplane camera. This way you give depth to your scene, and give the impression of a camera movement, instead of a zoom, which is far more cinematic and appealing. In addition Flash depends on movie clips for this to work, so also forget about exporting to AVI or any other raster format with flash. YouâEUTMll have to convert it later. In Toon Boom, export away. Toon Booms Animate Pro supports 3D too. Links below show you what it can do. Flash has been slowly converting to the 3D market, and I believe will natively support without the use of plugins 3D objects and animation. Simply because of the HTML 5 V SWF Battle.

7. Lip Syncing.
Flash you have to do it all by ear/eye. In toon boom you can import a wav, and it will try makea suggestion of the mouth movement and timing for you. ItâEUTMs just a guide, but itâEUTMs a good starting point. The program Magpie Pro, is helpful as you lip sync first then just take your information into your package.
http://www.thirdwishsoftware.com/magpiepro.html

---
These are the main differences I feel make the massive work flow difference. The rest of the features are really similar, which is why you can use one, then jump to the other. As I say to others, never think of it as you are going from one package to the other, always think of it as you are expanding your skillset, because not one program does it all. So you can import and export until your heart is content, then hit it all over to an composition and then editing program.

To see videos of more things toon boom animate pro does, check out this:
http://beta.toonboom.com/professionals/animate-pro/features

I do suggest you try all three of them first if you plan on buying for commercial usage. :)

If you have any questions about anything ive mentioned let me know. ïS Hope this was informative for you. Just remember, no restriction and being biased, always expansion and accepting no single application is the answer. ;)

[PeterSatera]

Son of a .... every time i put in an apostrophe it wrote "âEUTM"

[devilsgarage]

At 2/19/13 11:08 AM, PeterSatera wrote: It's usually a Mix. :)

So: Pros and Cons with ToonBoom. I'll start with the basics and head into features.

Dude! thanks for the wall of information.
I have to say I find Flash's drawing tools very strange and for years had to work around it. Though my speed has increased quiet a bit, I do like TB drawing tools. Also TB is way more stable than Flash.
Thanks for all the info, much appreciate it

[PeterSatera]

At 2/20/13 01:04 AM, thedevilsgarage wrote: Dude! thanks for the wall of information.
I have to say I find Flash's drawing tools very strange and for years had to work around it. Though my speed has increased quiet a bit, I do like TB drawing tools. Also TB is way more stable than Flash.
Thanks for all the info, much appreciate it

No problem! :) Glad it's helpful to someone.

[Deadtuna]

At 2/12/13 07:26 PM, BabySteps wrote: I've used both, and i've gotten REALLY familiar with flash, but enjoy the features of toon boom.
i feel with toon boom, i can make my animation look so much better than i could with flash.
but with flash, i can animate faster than with toon boom and it's laid out better.

the cons of flash is that it crashes more than it should and brush strokes are sloppy
the pros are that it's easy to use, better laid out, and can operate faster on it.

the cons of TB is that it takes ME longer to animate with it.
the pros are that it seems to look better and has a lot more features animation wise.(excluding action script)

which do you prefer, toon boom? or flash?

discuss.

When It comes to TB vs. Flash, TB is far superior in my opinion. But if you don't want to spend tons more time animating than usual stick with flash.

[PlagueOfGripes]

I don't have a high opinion of Flash. Like celebrities being famous for being famous, Flash is still used mostly because people use it so much. It's hard to get away from.

Case in point: I can't upload any of my animations to Newgrounds because they're all made in Toonboom, using its tools. It can't export to SWF due to licensing mumbo jumbo. I can awkwardly using its resource files to move everything over to Flash, without audio, but it loses a lot of data, if you use something like the morphing tool, for instance.

So, use flash when you absolutely have to. Which is a lot of the time. Otherwise, TB is a much better option, although it also has its fair share of problems / crashes.

[PeterSatera]

At 11/1/13 11:51 PM, PlagueOfGripes wrote: Case in point: I can't upload any of my animations to Newgrounds because they're all made in Toonboom, using its tools. It can't export to SWF due to licensing mumbo jumbo. I can awkwardly using its resource files to move everything over to Flash, without audio, but it loses a lot of data, if you use something like the morphing tool, for instance.

Newgrounds accepts movie files. Toon boom is better at exporting a movie file, then composite and edit elsewhere. It's a professional package, however ive never had any licensing problems. But I do sugget when using TB you export and edit like a pro and dont depend on swf.

So, use flash when you absolutely have to. Which is a lot of the time. Otherwise, TB is a much better option, although it also has its fair share of problems / crashes.

If your TB is crashing theirs a conflict there. Im not having any problems with it. Some programs have conflictions with eachother such as Divx and Camtasia 7 have massive problems.