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Drones Killing US citizens!

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Tony-DarkGrave
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Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 08:30 AM Reply

WASHINGTON -- A report Monday night on the nature of the administration's drone program has the potential to dramatically revamp the debate over President Barack Obama's foreign policy and the confirmation process for his incoming cabinet.

The report, by Michael Isikoff of NBC News, reveals that the Obama administration believes that high-level administration officials -- not just the president -- may order the killing of âEUoesenior operational leadersâEU of al-Qaida or an associated force even without evidence they are actively plotting against the U.S.

so the all the government needs is "suspicion" and they can frag their own citizens

and this isn't tyranny at its finest? maybe we should ask our Overlord Obama for his opinion.

Ceratisa
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 09:14 AM Reply

Who needs the NDAA when you have missiles?

Saen
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 10:39 AM Reply

Lmao oh it's hilarious to think which side of this issue you would be on during Bush's presidency.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 10:49 AM Reply

2 things to consider.

1. most americans overseas tend to stay inside of cities or on the outskirts. If you're in a position where the US can strike you with a drone missile, then you're probably A. in a nation where drones operate, B. way outside of a city. and C. you're in a place where the average american is very much in mortal danger, given that countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan have terrorist organizations who make a point of abducting "enemies" and ransoming them, or executing them to make a video and use it for propaganda.If you're traveling around Afghanistan, outside of the city, safely, then something is up.

2. the political backlash of killing a US citizen without some solid proof of them plotting against the US is more than pretty much any politician would be willing to handle. also, a drone strike inside the US would set off one hell of a shit storm. If the government wanted to assassinate an average US citizen, they would use the CIA to do it, given that they would be able to do it far more quitely than a drone launching a missile and would even be able to dispose of the corpse.

also, the government doesn't even know who the average american is. if you've done something to get the government's attention and make them want to hit you with a missile, then you've accomplished something.

a little common sense goes a long way.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 11:05 AM Reply

At 2/5/13 10:49 AM, Korriken wrote: Stuff

this is about Drones IN AMERICA. and there are drones operating in america.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 11:19 AM Reply

At 2/5/13 11:05 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
this is about Drones IN AMERICA. and there are drones operating in america.

and how many of these drones have weapons on them?


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 11:39 AM Reply

At 2/5/13 11:19 AM, Korriken wrote: and how many of these drones have weapons on them?

a few hundred flying around and a dozen or two armed ones.

Camarohusky
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 12:25 PM Reply

OK, 2 things here:

First off, if one has openly become a member of Al-Qaeda, they ARE hostile to the US and are at war with the US. They need not be actively engaged in an active attack on the US at the very moment of the strike. Think of war, (this is a war)an enemy soldier does not need to be actively shooting at your or your army in order to be killed as an enemy soldier. All they have to do is be an enemy soldier. EVERY member of Al Qaeda is an enemy soldier in this war.

Second, Please read the first paragraph of the document. "This white paper sets forth a legal framework for considering thecircumstances in which the U.S. government could use lethal force in a foreign country ..." Emphasis added. These drone strikes are not, and will not be used on American citizens on American soil. The drones that will be used on American soil are soped up versions of toy helicopters, no bigger than the kitty-copter. They will have cameras and measuring instruments, not weapons on them.

In the end, it's all just hysteria by the uber-left nutties and those who hate the letter D.

Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 12:42 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 12:25 PM, Camarohusky wrote: First off, if one has openly become a member of Al-Qaeda, they ARE hostile to the US and are at war with the US. They need not be actively engaged in an active attack on the US at the very moment of the strike. Think of war, (this is a war)an enemy soldier does not need to be actively shooting at your or your army in order to be killed as an enemy soldier. All they have to do is be an enemy soldier. EVERY member of Al Qaeda is an enemy soldier in this war.

rules of war apply you can only apply as much force given on you its not like you can take a strike team and go into said persons how and just shoot him. then of course there is collateral damage.

Second, Please read the first paragraph of the document. "This white paper sets forth a legal framework for considering thecircumstances in which the U.S. government could use lethal force in a foreign country ..." Emphasis added. These drone strikes are not, and will not be used on American citizens on American soil. The drones that will be used on American soil are soped up versions of toy helicopters, no bigger than the kitty-copter. They will have cameras and measuring instruments, not weapons on them.

no but they can be applied to americans on soil thats the fear of it. there has already been two US via target killings by drones by the Obama administration while completely ignoring other options to deal with them.

In the end, it's all just hysteria by the uber-left nutties and those who hate the letter D.

and the right also

LemonCrush
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 01:12 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 10:39 AM, Saen wrote: Lmao oh it's hilarious to think which side of this issue you would be on during Bush's presidency.

I know right?

Under Bush this was a huge, huge fucking deal. But just like every other Bush policy Obama has adopted (Gitmo, bailouts, gun restriction, so and so forth) it's okay under a democrat.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 02:47 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 12:42 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: rules of war apply you can only apply as much force given on you its not like you can take a strike team and go into said persons how and just shoot him. then of course there is collateral damage.

Yes you can. There is no rule of war saying that the enemy must be practicing his enemy duties. A Nazi soldier cooking in the kitchen is the same as a Nazi soldier shooting on the battlefield. And indiscriminate military attack is justified both times.

no but they can be applied to americans on soil thats the fear of it. there has already been two US via target killings by drones by the Obama administration while completely ignoring other options to deal with them.

Seriously, what other options? If an American is in a Taliban fighting unit, should the US unit not call in artillery support and not assault, but instead capture the the American and bring to a US civilian court at the cost of numerous American lives, just because that openly declared soldier in an army in an open war with the US happens to be an American citizen? Puh-lease.

I know you don't like Obama, but keep to the arguments that hold at least some water.

LemonCrush
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 03:02 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 02:47 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Seriously, what other options? If an American is in a Taliban fighting unit, should the US unit not call in artillery support and not assault, but instead capture the the American and bring to a US civilian court at the cost of numerous American lives, just because that openly declared soldier in an army in an open war with the US happens to be an American citizen? Puh-lease.

Capture said citizen, and try him in a military court. Or a civilian one. Doesn't really matter, and I ain't a lawyer.

Either way, he can be tried and punished accordingly. America likes to claim it's a beacon of justice and liberty...it should act like it.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 03:16 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 03:02 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
Capture said citizen, and try him in a military court. Or a civilian one. Doesn't really matter, and I ain't a lawyer.

Either way, he can be tried and punished accordingly. America likes to claim it's a beacon of justice and liberty...it should act like it.

if you could catch him when he's alone, sure, but to assault a jihadist caravan, motorcade, or base/camp in order to capture said American is silly. just drop a bomb on them all.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 03:21 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 03:16 PM, Korriken wrote: if you could catch him when he's alone, sure, but to assault a jihadist caravan, motorcade, or base/camp in order to capture said American is silly. just drop a bomb on them all.

they did it with Osama and various other extractions that we don't know the full details about and it came out just fine. but thats just silly because Obama's drone policy is the greatest thing ever.

Saen
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 03:34 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 01:12 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
I know right?

Under Bush this was a huge, huge fucking deal. But just like every other Bush policy Obama has adopted (Gitmo, bailouts, gun restriction, so and so forth) it's okay under a democrat.

If you recall it was the Republicans who were exclusively pushing for increasing executive power. That philosophy got us involved in places of the middle east where we should be. And now its pretty much flip flopped, with the exception that Republicans are afraid of the government and want less executive power, but at the same time they believes events occurring in the middle east are a matter of our own national security and demand intervention.

I believe our time and welcome in the middle east has long expired, increasing military strikes anywhere in the middle east at this point is lowering our own country's ego and further humiliating ourselves in front of the rest of the world.

I applaud Obama's efforts in the middle east until the point of killing Osama Bin Ladin. There is literally no reason left to have our troops in the middle east now and it's a shame that our executive branch nor congress has ordered a withdrawal.

But then again, if Obama withdrew our troops that would be too much gover'met power!!

LemonCrush
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 04:47 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 03:34 PM, Saen wrote: If you recall it was the Republicans who were exclusively pushing for increasing executive power. That philosophy got us involved in places of the middle east where we should be. And now its pretty much flip flopped, with the exception that Republicans are afraid of the government and want less executive power, but at the same time they believes events occurring in the middle east are a matter of our own national security and demand intervention.

I agree totally. Thing is, I opposed when Bush was in office too. Democrats opposed it pretty heavy back then too. But now that Obama does it, it's ok. Why?

FWIW, the middle east thing was a thing long before Bush.

I believe our time and welcome in the middle east has long expired, increasing military strikes anywhere in the middle east at this point is lowering our own country's ego and further humiliating ourselves in front of the rest of the world.

Agreed.

I applaud Obama's efforts in the middle east until the point of killing Osama Bin Ladin. There is literally no reason left to have our troops in the middle east now and it's a shame that our executive branch nor congress has ordered a withdrawal.

Agreed

But then again, if Obama withdrew our troops that would be too much gover'met power!!

Do you know what the purpose of the government is? Withdrawing troops to ensure our security (and our troop's safety), would a proper use of govt power, because that's what they're supposed to do.

Saen
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 05:06 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 04:47 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
I agree totally. Thing is, I opposed when Bush was in office too. Democrats opposed it pretty heavy back then too. But now that Obama does it, it's ok. Why?

I think the war in the middle east among some democrats, most of all moderates, and some Republicans has pretty much shifted from a "War on Terror" into "Providing military aid". Some Democrats such as myself still firmly believe that we shouldn't be in the middle east fighting senseless wars and are pretty disappointed with unfulfilled promises of withdrawal back in 2008. A few Republicans still continue to believe that the government has no authority to wage wars and spend the tax dollars in the middle east.

I believe it's this new mindset of, "oh we have to help Syria, Egypt, Iraq, etc." from the majority of Americans that is keeping us in the middle east. It's fucking disgusting and depressing and it's stemming from moderate "modern" portions of both the Democratic and Republicans parties.


FWIW, the middle east thing was a thing long before Bush.

Bush Jr. dug us into further unnecessary conflict in the middle east with Iraq.


Do you know what the purpose of the government is? Withdrawing troops to ensure our security (and our troop's safety), would a proper use of govt power, because that's what they're supposed to do.

But we don't need the government to protect us, build roads, enforce laws, oh wait...

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 06:36 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 10:49 AM, Korriken wrote:
also, the government doesn't even know who the average american is. if you've done something to get the government's attention and make them want to hit you with a missile, then you've accomplished something.

1.8 Gigapixel cameras..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxNyaXfJsA

With ^these^ types of drones, nobody who walks the street (or leaves their house at all) will be excluded. Case closed.

Who needs missiles? If you post on the net that you're gonna go slaughter some kids.. then they track you loading up ya truck with something that looks like weapons.. you can bet your ass that you're gonna be taken out one way or the other.

Oh yeah, and why shouldn't America have these if they are already used overseas on other nations territory?
Welcome to the new reality. Drones Everywhere. Controlled by Anyone and Everyone.

LemonCrush
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 07:07 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 05:06 PM, Saen wrote: I think the war in the middle east among some democrats, most of all moderates, and some Republicans has pretty much shifted from a "War on Terror" into "Providing military aid". Some Democrats such as myself still firmly believe that we shouldn't be in the middle east fighting senseless wars and are pretty disappointed with unfulfilled promises of withdrawal back in 2008. A few Republicans still continue to believe that the government has no authority to wage wars and spend the tax dollars in the middle east.

And that's great. But when it comes to the media and regular voting democrats, it seems to be a non-issue or even more likely, they don't even know about

I believe it's this new mindset of, "oh we have to help Syria, Egypt, Iraq, etc." from the majority of Americans that is keeping us in the middle east. It's fucking disgusting and depressing and it's stemming from moderate "modern" portions of both the Democratic and Republicans parties.

Agreed.

Bush Jr. dug us into further unnecessary conflict in the middle east with Iraq.

Sure, but that's just one item on the very long laundry list of US involvement in the mid east. This shit is nothing new. We've been building government and buying influence (and exerting it) since 1911, when they discovered oil in Iraq.

But we don't need the government to protect us, build roads, enforce laws, oh wait...

I don't know where you're getting this anti-enforcing laws or protecting us, stuff from?

I support the federal govt protecting the borders. I support local govt's protecting citizens however they can, as both of these things are in the constitution. I don't support them thinking I'm too stupid to know that pot is bad for me and therefore taking it away from me. I'm an adult, and I can make that decision myself.

I support the govt building roads, though I think the system of funding it is wildly inefficient.

And I support them enforcing laws. What I do not support is a bunch of overpaid bureaucrats in DC writing new, nitpicky, nanny state laws because they have nothing better to do. You want to enforce laws? Awesome! Let's go after the rapists and murderers, not make laws criminalizing not having insurance.

The govt. serves a purpose, of course. But most of the time, they WAY WAY overstep the line of what they should and are allowed to do.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 07:20 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 06:36 PM, JudgeDredd wrote: With ^these^ types of drones, nobody who walks the street (or leaves their house at all) will be excluded. Case closed.

No, goalposts changed.

I am sick and tired of this "new" definition of privacy where what someone does is private regardless of their location of surroundings.

The root word of "privacy" is "private". Not Public. Private.

What you do in public, whether it be walking down the street, driving your car, flirting with someone other than your wife, sitting, reading, and so on, is not AND NEVER HAS BEEN private. If a drone snaps a picture of you walking your dog, that is not an invasion of your privacy, as their is no privacy in public.

The ONLY case where these drones could invade any rational sense of privacy is by looking down into an uncovered area that is blocked from view for others on the ground, like a fenced in backyard. Even then, we let airplanes fly over our homes daily and think nothing of it. For all we know, numerous airplanes could be taking aerial photos of our backyards weekly, or daily. The addition of drones is no different than these airplanes, except we know the drone have the capability of taking pictures, whereas the airplanes may or may not.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 07:44 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 07:20 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
No, goalposts changed.
The root word of "privacy" is "private". Not Public. Private.

Agreed, it's mainly a percetion problem.
We definitely grew up thinking we're private citizens going about our private lives.
That has all changed. Cameras are already everywhere. In public. In and now in the home.
Kids toys, early robots, every device we buy pretty much has a camera, and most are now web connected.
At what point do we (all) just accept (this new perception of) reality?
Younger generation already accept this. Older folk not so much.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 08:27 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 12:25 PM, Camarohusky wrote: OK, 2 things here:

First off, if one has openly become a member of Al-Qaeda, they ARE hostile to the US and are at war with the US. They need not be actively engaged in an active attack on the US at the very moment of the strike. Think of war, (this is a war)an enemy soldier does not need to be actively shooting at your or your army in order to be killed as an enemy soldier. All they have to do is be an enemy soldier. EVERY member of Al Qaeda is an enemy soldier in this war.

: So lets say an american citizen who is an outspoken critic of the United States government and its policies and is a big supporter of AQ and it's affiliate organizations but isn't clearly linked with them decides to go over seas for one reason or another does the government have the legal right to kill them even though there is no intelligence to suggest otherwise? Where does the government have the authority to kill an american citizen with only assumptions? Where does the government get the authority to decide that Citizen X is a threat to national security?. My question is where does the line end?.

Second, Please read the first paragraph of the document. "This white paper sets forth a legal framework for considering thecircumstances in which the U.S. government could use lethal force in a foreign country ..." Emphasis added. These drone strikes are not, and will not be used on American citizens on American soil. The drones that will be used on American soil are soped up versions of toy helicopters, no bigger than the kitty-copter. They will have cameras and measuring instruments, not weapons on them.
So that makes it perfectly OK then for the Government to kill Americans in foreign countries as long as its not on U.S soil?...your right we are too smart for that. I get that your fine sucking on Obama's nut sack while he wipes his ass with the constitution but a lot of people believe in the due process and the supremacy of the constitution.
In the end, it's all just hysteria by the uber-left nutties and those who hate the letter D.
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 10:46 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 08:27 PM, Dominickaos wrote:
At 2/5/13 12:25 PM, Camarohusky wrote: So lets say an american citizen who is an outspoken critic of the United States government and its policies and is a big supporter of AQ and it's affiliate organizations

Right off the bat, supporting a terrorist group that, given the chance, will attack American citizens at the drop of the hat, is grounds for an arrest warrant. Of course, it's only with solid proof and reasonable cause, but I don't think that's too hard to get.

When it comes to public safety, they don't screw around. Treason is something you don't take lightly on either side of the coin.

but isn't clearly linked with them decides to go over seas for one reason or another does the government have the legal right to kill them even though there is no intelligence to suggest otherwise?

I'm fairly certain that they mention if you leave America to a warzone of a country, then they can't guarantee your safety beyond a certain point. {i.e get caught in a shootout} Plus, as I mentioned, if they get solid proof that if Joe Blow happens to work with AQ or any terrorist group in another country, then that's enough reasoning for elimination of Joe Blow. It's much easier that way, instead of a kangaroo court where the outcome is already known.

Where does the government have the authority to kill an american citizen with only assumptions? Where does the government get the authority to decide that Citizen X is a threat to national security?.

Read statement above. It's not like they pick some random person off the street for arrest or termination like they do in the Middle East, give them some credit.


Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 11:10 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 07:07 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
And that's great. But when it comes to the media and regular voting democrats, it seems to be a non-issue or even more likely, they don't even know about

I think an overall sense of complacency with war has developed. We have been fighting our "war on terror" for what almost a dozen years now, which a good portion of the voting public has spent most of their grown up life in. It's been so long that fewer people are passionate about withdrawing and ending this war.


I don't know where you're getting this anti-enforcing laws or protecting us, stuff from?

I support the federal govt protecting the borders. I support local govt's protecting citizens however they can, as both of these things are in the constitution. I don't support them thinking I'm too stupid to know that pot is bad for me and therefore taking it away from me. I'm an adult, and I can make that decision myself.

I support the govt building roads, though I think the system of funding it is wildly inefficient.

And I support them enforcing laws. What I do not support is a bunch of overpaid bureaucrats in DC writing new, nitpicky, nanny state laws because they have nothing better to do. You want to enforce laws? Awesome! Let's go after the rapists and murderers, not make laws criminalizing not having insurance.

The govt. serves a purpose, of course. But most of the time, they WAY WAY overstep the line of what they should and are allowed to do.

And everything you've said sounds perfectly reasonable now. But, when other discussions veer off about government and Obama, ridiculous ideas are brought up and encouraged. "The government is after my family, that's why I need my guns!", "Obama is a socialist AND a fascist AND Hitler AND not even a U.S. citizen!" Just genuinely stupid notions that rise from the Republican party.

But I agree, these increased drone strike authorizations by the executive branch are crossing the line of executive power. On top of this, attacks such as these are further committing our government to war.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 5th, 2013 @ 11:24 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 11:10 PM, Saen wrote: I think an overall sense of complacency with war has developed. We have been fighting our "war on terror" for what almost a dozen years now, which a good portion of the voting public has spent most of their grown up life in. It's been so long that fewer people are passionate about withdrawing and ending this war.

That definitely has something to do with it. My father said, when he was a kid, Vietnam footage, really fucked up shit,was shown on TV all the time.

This is not the case now. The media covers it up and pretends this war doesn't exist.

And everything you've said sounds perfectly reasonable now. But, when other discussions veer off about government and Obama, ridiculous ideas are brought up and encouraged. "The government is after my family, that's why I need my guns!", "Obama is a socialist AND a fascist AND Hitler AND not even a U.S. citizen!" Just genuinely stupid notions that rise from the Republican party.

Well, people say that because there have been times, not even a century ago, where governments did restrict firearms and lots of people were killed because they had no defense when the government started killing people. There's nothing wrong with being aware of the past and cautious of that potential today. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 6th, 2013 @ 12:03 AM Reply

At 2/5/13 11:24 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
Well, people say that because there have been times, not even a century ago, where governments did restrict firearms and lots of people were killed because they had no defense when the government started killing people. There's nothing wrong with being aware of the past and cautious of that potential today. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Name a democratic government which has done exactly this. Disarming citizens, resulting in them being defenseless and then subsequently murdered by their own democratic government. It will be blatantly obvious when citizens have to sincerely worry about our government wanting to declare war on it's residents. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. An FDR quote it seems almost half of our country has completely forgotten, half of our country is allowing itself to be manipulated by fear tactics from the media and adjacent party members.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 6th, 2013 @ 12:05 AM Reply

At 2/6/13 12:03 AM, Saen wrote: Name a democratic government which has done exactly this. Disarming citizens, resulting in them being defenseless and then subsequently murdered by their own democratic government.

All of the dictatorships of the 20th century started as "democratic"

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 6th, 2013 @ 12:42 AM Reply

Any procedure which aims to bypass the Bill of Rights is clearly unacceptable. This is just indefensible.

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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 6th, 2013 @ 01:27 AM Reply

At 2/6/13 12:05 AM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 2/6/13 12:03 AM, Saen wrote: Name a democratic government which has done exactly this. Disarming citizens, resulting in them being defenseless and then subsequently murdered by their own democratic government.
All of the dictatorships of the 20th century started as "democratic"

Still need to name at least one viable example (not going to be easy).

JudgeDredd
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Response to Drones Killing US citizens! Feb. 6th, 2013 @ 07:03 AM Reply

"Judge, jury and executioner: Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo"

..now where have i heard those words before?

.

"The Federal Aviation Administration is due to release regulations [in 2015] for unmanned aircraft
in domestic airspace. Once those regulations are in place, the FAA predicts that 10,000 commercial
drones will be operating in the U.S. within five years."
(2020)

.