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Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex

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Saen
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:49 AM Reply

At 2/21/13 04:31 PM, TheMason wrote:
Dude...you do realize that there is a difference between a beach setting where there are wide open spaces, daylight visibility, ope family-orientated businesses, etc...and something like bar hopping or a frat party where a predator could relatively easily incapacitate and isolate a woman from people who would come to her aid.

So no...we were NOT discussing a scenario just like this one.

Not focusing on a beach setting, any public setting where dressing skimpily is common. That's why I gave the nightclub, bar, concert, house party examples.


A few things:
* You do not address the core of my point that women often wear clothing that makes rape easier while frequenting areas and activities that could help facilitate rape.

Yes I have been trying to tackle and focus on this the whole time! It's difficult when there haven't been any case studies or incident reports on this!

A good hypothetical experiment on this would be to have a group of women dress differently in different settings. Groups of women in a more conservative sundress, a women in jeans, women in a bikini/lingerie, and more in between if you'd like. Hypothetically all of these women would have to be identical in appearance and personality. Then drop these women off at a frat party and record the number of rape attempts and successful rapes preformed on each clothing class. Recording both addresses what may lure a predator into rape and what clothing made led to the highest successful rape percentage.

Obviously this experiment is nearly impossible to preform. A more realistic experiment would be measuring the "attention factor" each outfit has for a group of similar looking women. So instead of measuring rape incidences, you would record the number of times each clothing class gets approached and hit on by a guy.


-- The attractiveness/sluttiness of the clothing is a seperate issue. June Cleaver in her conservative, Stepford Wives sundress would be easier to rape than a submissive wearing a latex body suit (as long as their is no zipper in the crotch).

lol I hope you meant spandex, because latex is rather easy to rip.


--Wear a slinky dress to homecoming & dances, wear a bikini at the beach, or take it all off at a naked party. But if you're going to a frat party or bar hopping...you may want to wear jeans.

And the price to be paid? Put yourself in a woman's shoes, your mission of the night is to grab the attention and hook up with a specific cute guy you had in mind. You go to a frat party (where is it customary for Sorority members to dress high class, so every girl is in a dress) and you show up in jeans. Not only will you blown off by the one guy you were aiming for, but ridiculed and kicked out from the party.

As for the bar scene the same idea applies. A girl dressed in jeans will be outcompeted by a girl dressed classy or stunning on a night out.

Regardless, a predator will choose a victim who appears the most VULNERABLE.


No one deserves to be raped. Nor should how they were dressed or activities they were engaged in (I know a girl who was into the BDSM scene who was doing a bondage event and was raped)...EVER be a defense for rape. Do not confuse what I'm saying as assigning blame OR providing a basis for a criminal defense of rape.

I haven't accused you of blaming women for being raped or anything along those lines. The idea that the mechanics of women's clothing is a deciding factor in a predator's stalking process is just not true.

If you wan't women to protect themselves from being raped, there are much more effective measures they can take rather than the clothing they wear. Not drinking too much or drinking anything that's not yours, don't isolate yourself, keep your phone with you, always go out and leave with your group of friends, make sure you're familiar with the place you're going to, learn how to defend yourself, etc.

TheMason
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:56 AM Reply

At 2/21/13 08:16 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 2/21/13 07:31 PM, TheMason wrote:
Statistically speaking...the data just is not there.
Well you'll find a lot of sociologists and women's rights advocates say that the data shows it doesn't matter.
But everyone knows those two fields of study / activism are bullshit, so take that for what it's worth :D

I actually give sociologists a lot of props and do not consider their line of study to be bullshit. However, with women's rights activists...we're talking about political activists not academics. If you read my posts on gun control and check out the links I source, very rarely will you find links to the NRA or GOA to support my claim. The reason is they are politically and emotionally charged and motivated and very often skewed in accordance with an agenda. Therefore, they often lack validity and are filled with methodological errors.

But in terms of the sociology of this subject...I do not think it is very well understood. Part of it is there are barriers I see to collecting data:
* unavailability from law enforcement sources
* ethical considerations in conducting interviews with rape victims (it is reasonable to assume that asking about the clothes a woman was wearing could induce feelings of blame that would be counter-productive to her healing)
* rape is perhaps the most underreported crime involving a victim out there. Therefore a majority of cases are not available to be sampled. This produces problems of sample error and reporting bias.

So I think sociologists speaking on this topic are speaking from a theoretical perspective rather than a firm data perspective.


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TheMason
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 10:37 AM Reply

At 2/22/13 09:49 AM, Saen wrote: Not focusing on a beach setting, any public setting where dressing skimpily is common. That's why I gave the nightclub, bar, concert, house party examples.

Saen...it would have been far better to have just not responded. That is the best way to concede a point on a BBS discussion like this. Better yet is to acknowledge that you have nothing to come back with.

But...to try and weasel out of being pinned down is just bad form. You are the one who brought up the beach setting. You have also brought up public settings in a general sense, and naked/foam parties in the specific sense.

I'm the one who gave the nightclub and bar examples.

So yeah...you HAVE focused on public settings where skimpy dress is common...as well as nudity and I have addressed those arguments. You on the other hand have not addressed my points on this.

And now you try to squirm away from your point? Very bad rhetorical form.



A few things:
* You do not address the core of my point that women often wear clothing that makes rape easier while frequenting areas and activities that could help facilitate rape.
Yes I have been trying to tackle and focus on this the whole time! It's difficult when there haven't been any case studies or incident reports on this!

Academic/scientific sources are always the best to use. I totally agree with you and share this feeling. However, there are other sources of information that are not as good but still authoritative and valid. These would be things like law enforcement professionals and training on Sexual Assault Prevention and Response...something every military member goes through on an annual basis.

Now when many of them are talking about dress...I'd tend to error with them on the side of caution.


A good hypothetical experiment ...

You do good recognizing that this would never happen. Such an experiment would be highly unethical and no one would allow it.


Obviously this experiment is nearly impossible to preform. A more realistic experiment would be measuring the "attention factor" each outfit has for a group of similar looking women. So instead of measuring rape incidences, you would record the number of times each clothing class gets approached and hit on by a guy.

Let me say...I'm glad you're thinking about this scientifically. However, the main problem is you suffer from a fatal methodological error: you're not measuring rape incidences. You're measuring something else and including, as a vast majority of your data points, the interest of non-rapists. So this study would provide no useful responses.

Now what could be studied:

* prison interviews with convicted rapists
* interviews with persons who have served their time for rape/SA
* interviews with victims on their rape (suffers from ethical and methodological dilemnas thought)
* have law enforcement record type of clothing (also suffers from some ethical dilemnas)



-- The attractiveness/sluttiness of the clothing is a seperate issue. June Cleaver in her conservative, Stepford Wives sundress would be easier to rape than a submissive wearing a latex body suit (as long as their is no zipper in the crotch).
lol I hope you meant spandex, because latex is rather easy to rip.

True...but you've got to cut/pierce it first. The point I was trying to make though, is taking it off can be very difficult...and may provide a disincentive despite being very overtly sexual in nature.

But you are correct that it could become easily cut in a struggle and then be easily torn off.


And the price to be paid? Put yourself in a woman's shoes, your mission of the night is to grab the attention and hook up with a specific cute guy you had in mind. You go to a frat party (where is it customary for Sorority members to dress high class, so every girl is in a dress) and you show up in jeans. Not only will you blown off by the one guy you were aiming for, but ridiculed and kicked out from the party.

Okay...so?

Hate to break it to you...but I'd still encourage my daughter (who will be going to college in four years) not to dress in a way that makes her vulnerable. Furthermore, I'm going to talk with her about joining a sorority and try and disuade her from it. Because if she has to dress a certain way to get that cute guy...then he's not good enough for her.

I want my daughter to have the self-esteem that means that her self-worth is not a component of what she wears but who she is. I'm pretty sure that you can tell by now that I am college educated. So I've very well versed in multiple aspects of the college social scene. There are alternatives to sororities and frat parties where she can find the same level of social gratification as frats and sororities.

Furthermore, I have been to frat parties. And guess what? Outside of formals...I've seen girls in jeans. Designer, high-class, tight-fitting jeans. And guess what else? They were getting hit on just like the girls dressed in mini-skirts or dresses.

So this point fails.


As for the bar scene the same idea applies. A girl dressed in jeans will be outcompeted by a girl dressed classy or stunning on a night out.

Again...maybe FSU is different from St. Louis U, U of S. Carolina, U of Mo, or some of the other college nightlife scenes I've been around between 1993-2008. But the type of clothing does not matter...how she pulls it off does. If you're an attractive girl, you're going to get attention. Regardless of what you're wearing.


Regardless, a predator will choose a victim who appears the most VULNERABLE.

And clothing helps make you vulnerable if it facilitates the rape. You have not addressed this point but danced around it.


I haven't accused you of blaming women for being raped or anything along those lines. The idea that the mechanics of women's clothing is a deciding factor in a predator's stalking process is just not true.

Umm...its truthfulness has not been confirmed academically or scientifically. So you are technically correct. On the other hand...you have the professional opinion of people who deal with rape as part of their jobs saying it is a factor.

Secondly, it is not just about the predator's 'stalking process'. It is about how vulnerable the girl is in the situation. In the event of a rape attempt...will her clothing work for or against her.

Just saying something is not true does not make it not true. Nor does it address the point you are trying to counter.


If you wan't women to protect themselves from being raped, there are much more effective measures they can take rather than the clothing they wear. Not drinking too much or drinking anything that's not yours, don't isolate yourself, keep your phone with you, always go out and leave with your group of friends, make sure you're familiar with the place you're going to, learn how to defend yourself, etc.

Those are other measures, measures that I do advocate and support.

But simply stating them does not make them relevant to the discussion of the effectiveness of dressing defensively. So at this point my argument still stands.


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Camarohusky
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 11:12 AM Reply

At 2/22/13 09:47 AM, TheMason wrote: In the end, my point was that clothing is a situational factor in that it can make you easy to rape or hard to rape.

But that's not how rapes are done. They don't use "just enough" force. Predatory rapes are beasts of overwhelming force. Date rapes are beasts of stealthy suppression. In either case the amount of time it takes to get the clothes off is not much of a factor.

For the predatory rapist, it's extremely rare that the rape is done so hastily and poorly planned (the victim may not be planned but the MO almost always is) that the perhaps 1-2 minutes difference in removing full clothes versus a skirt means the difference between success and failure. The overwhelming force means that the rapist will subdue the victim and then remove the victim from a noticeable area that the attacker believers will give him (occasionally her) more than enough time to commit the crime and leave. It's not a timed event, nor is it a sort of attack that is done on a short schedule.

Date rapes are more likely to have a short schedule or a time crunch, but even then, the physical, but nonviolent suppression of the victim can give the attacker a large cover thus making less need for as much cover.

In short, and extra 1 or 2 minutes is hardly a make or break when it comes to a crime that is not very visible, involves complete control and the ability to move to a secluded location, and does not attract attention (compared to other crimes, where there almost always is a schedule and minutes can make a difference).

Nor has anyone shown where dressing defensively is a bad idea.

Not a bad idea, but it won;t really help (dressing an a manner difficult to take off). Dressing strongly and in a manner that gives the impression of the ability to physically defend onesself is different. The defense point in a rape, of both types, is the suppression. If you appear that you will be difficult or dangerous to suppress, your chances of being picked are much much lower. Once you are suppressed youare essentially at the mercy of the attacker and their ability to find seclusion, so any extra defenses there aremerely time wasters for the attacker, as they almost always have an overabundance of time.

I think if you re-read what I'm writing...you'll see that I'm making this point. Yes, I think that there could be a link between overtly sexual clothing and a very small increase in a woman's likelihood of being targeted. But as you point out...there is no data on it. But the data is rather silent either way, I've tried looking for studies on it and come up with inconclusive studies.

But there are studies that show what drives a rapist. Their attacks are sexually driven, but it's not the sex that they crave. Much like a bondage or S&M fetishist, the rapist derive sexual pleasure from the control, and then many of them add a pleasure link to violence as well. Because their sexual drive isn't driven by the sex, the regular indicators of sex and sexiness doesn't nessecarily fall into place. The focus of the women's body as 'sexy' has been a largely Western creation and while it has ebbed and flowed throughout history, is largely a recent fad. In Asian cultures and throughout the middle ages, wealth and status were the sexiness factors. A woman dressed to the nines was considered sexy because she was welthy and likely had a high status. That similar sort of non-body sex drive is likely what exists in predatory rapists. Because their pleasure derives from the control and the violence, they will likely see sexiness as a projection of vulnerability and weakness, not as a reflection of the curves of the body.


But my position is two-pronged. Dress defensively so that a potential rapist looks at you as strong and a challenge, not easy. Since rape is about power, then most rapists probably are not looking for a victim that would present the most challenge, but whose weakness would compliment their personal fable of strength. They may also be looking for a target that will be easy to subdue so that their risk of getting caught is reduced. Afterall, if you don't have to struggle with zippers and buttons and then pull tight fitting jeans off two kicking legs...you can instead focus on holding her down.

The supression always occurs prior to the actual rape. Once the victim has been suppressed the little differences and almost all of the defenses are out the window. The looks that will deter a rapist are not ones that make them think they will have to work harder after supression, but ones that make a rapist think they will have to work harder to supress in the first place. The difference between removing clothing for a rape is a post-suppression issue and thus is not much of a deterrent, if one at all.

Saen
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 11:51 AM Reply

At 2/22/13 10:37 AM, TheMason wrote:
Saen...it would have been far better to have just not responded. That is the best way to concede a point on a BBS discussion like this. Better yet is to acknowledge that you have nothing to come back with.

But...to try and weasel out of being pinned down is just bad form. You are the one who brought up the beach setting. You have also brought up public settings in a general sense, and naked/foam parties in the specific sense.

I'm the one who gave the nightclub and bar examples.

So yeah...you HAVE focused on public settings where skimpy dress is common...as well as nudity and I have addressed those arguments. You on the other hand have not addressed my points on this.

And now you try to squirm away from your point? Very bad rhetorical form.

This really isn't important enough to type this much about, who said what, but that's fine. What did I not specifically bring up, bars or nightclubs, you got me. Nothing to get worked up about.


These would be things like law enforcement professionals and training on Sexual Assault Prevention and Response...something every military member goes through on an annual basis.

Ok, name a sexual assault prevention program that has incorporated dressing in jeans, pants, latex suits (lol couldn't resist) as a part of prevention training.


Let me say...I'm glad you're thinking about this scientifically. However, the main problem is you suffer from a fatal methodological error: you're not measuring rape incidences. You're measuring something else and including, as a vast majority of your data points, the interest of non-rapists. So this study would provide no useful responses.

At most this type of realistic experiment would be supplementary statistics and data or some type of control.

Now what could be studied:

* prison interviews with convicted rapists
* interviews with persons who have served their time for rape/SA
* interviews with victims on their rape (suffers from ethical and methodological dilemnas thought)
* have law enforcement record type of clothing (also suffers from some ethical dilemnas)

The first three are not methods of experimentation, while the last is a method of observation.


Furthermore, I have been to frat parties. And guess what? Outside of formals...I've seen girls in jeans. Designer, high-class, tight-fitting jeans. And guess what else? They were getting hit on just like the girls dressed in mini-skirts or dresses.

So this point fails.

Really depends on the type of party and the prestige of the sorority/fraternity.


And clothing helps make you vulnerable if it facilitates the rape. You have not addressed this point but danced around it.

If there is clothing that facilitates rape, what clothing would adequately protect you from rape?


Secondly, it is not just about the predator's 'stalking process'. It is about how vulnerable the girl is in the situation. In the event of a rape attempt...will her clothing work for or against her.

Again, what clothing should a woman wear in order to protect herself from being raped?


But simply stating them does not make them relevant to the discussion of the effectiveness of dressing defensively. So at this point my argument still stands.

And one last time, what should a woman wear in order to prevent herself from being raped?

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 12:15 PM Reply

At 2/5/13 08:02 AM, Earfetish wrote: Recently, British 'national treasure' Joanna Lumley said something like 'women - if you get drunk and dress in skimpy clothing, you will get robbed or raped'. Many people accused her of 'victim-blaming', suggesting that she was saying some victims 'were asking for it'. What's the deal with that? Is it 'blaming the victims' to provide risk-management advice to women about rape, and if so, why is it ok to say 'don't leave your car keys in the ignition'?

I understand why getting drunk would increase the chances of assault or rape, but wearing skimpy clothing? No.
Serial rapists often target women that fit a specific profile, so I doubt that wearing pants instead of a skirt would change their mind. In other situations a woman might be raped by someone that she has a personal relationship with. There too the clothing she wears won't make much difference because the man already has another reason why he wants to rape her. Women don't cease to appear attractive or vulnerable when they're not wearing skimpy clothing.

Saying "wearing alluring clothing will get you raped" is dangerously close to "you're asking for sex if you try to look appealing to men". Why don't you ask them to wear a fucking burka while you're at it? It's just a conservative view that has no basis in reality.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 12:54 PM Reply

At 2/22/13 09:56 AM, TheMason wrote:
* rape is perhaps the most underreported crime involving a victim out there.

Did you know that every woman has been the victim of rape at least 4 times by the time they are 18?
78% of children are born of rape. No marriage in America has ever been rape-free after its second month. Whenever a woman has sex, she is raped. Whenever a man buys a Playboy magazine, he's raping.

Haha feminists.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 05:33 PM Reply

At 2/22/13 11:51 AM, Saen wrote: This really isn't important enough to type this much about, who said what, but that's fine. What did I not specifically bring up, bars or nightclubs, you got me. Nothing to get worked up about.

Again...you would do better just to accept that you have been bested and not try and manipulate things.


Ok, name a sexual assault prevention program that has incorporated dressing in jeans, pants, latex suits (lol couldn't resist) as a part of prevention training.

Umm...we've talked about it during annual SAPR training in the USAF.



Let me say...I'm glad you're thinking about this scientifically. However, the main problem is you suffer from a fatal methodological error: you're not measuring rape incidences. You're measuring something else and including, as a vast majority of your data points, the interest of non-rapists. So this study would provide no useful responses.
At most this type of realistic experiment would be supplementary statistics and data or some type of control.

Again...you would have to figure out some way of identifying which men hitting on the women would be capable of rape...much less inclined to it. Ergo...the mind reading technology to make this in anyway valid does not exist.


Now what could be studied:

* prison interviews with convicted rapists
* interviews with persons who have served their time for rape/SA
* interviews with victims on their rape (suffers from ethical and methodological dilemnas thought)
* have law enforcement record type of clothing (also suffers from some ethical dilemnas)
The first three are not methods of experimentation, while the last is a method of observation.

So? The first three are survey methods...from which you can derive trends in attitude and inclination. Also, observation is an acceptable means of scientific inquiry...especially for the social sciences.


And clothing helps make you vulnerable if it facilitates the rape. You have not addressed this point but danced around it.
If there is clothing that facilitates rape, what clothing would adequately protect you from rape?
Again, what clothing should a woman wear in order to protect herself from being raped?
And one last time, what should a woman wear in order to prevent herself from being raped?

I am curious...do you really think that repeating the same thing over and over again (I'll call it the 'Broken Record Gambit') is really an effective rhetorical tactic?

Furthermore, considering that I have already stated that tight jeans with a belt are means of dressing defensively. They make her appear less vulnerable because her vagina is harder to get to, and allows her more time to struggle or for help to arrive. This helps reduce her perceived vulnerability (especially relative other women who are dressed more accessible) as well as works for her in the event of an assault.

Now...you may be laying a trap for me by asking about what a woman can wear that will prevent rape in 100% of cases. But that is unrealistic...and intellectually dishonest.


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