At 2/22/13 09:49 AM, Saen wrote:
Not focusing on a beach setting, any public setting where dressing skimpily is common. That's why I gave the nightclub, bar, concert, house party examples.
Saen...it would have been far better to have just not responded. That is the best way to concede a point on a BBS discussion like this. Better yet is to acknowledge that you have nothing to come back with.
But...to try and weasel out of being pinned down is just bad form. You are the one who brought up the beach setting. You have also brought up public settings in a general sense, and naked/foam parties in the specific sense.
I'm the one who gave the nightclub and bar examples.
So yeah...you focused on public settings where skimpy dress is common...as well as nudity and I have addressed those arguments. You on the other hand have not addressed my points on this.
And now you try to squirm away from your point? Very bad rhetorical form.
Yes I have been trying to tackle and focus on this the whole time! It's difficult when there haven't been any case studies or incident reports on this!
A few things:
* You do not address the core of my point that women often wear clothing that makes rape easier while frequenting areas and activities that could help facilitate rape.
Academic/scientific sources are always the best to use. I totally agree with you and share this feeling. However, there are other sources of information that are not as good but still authoritative and valid. These would be things like law enforcement professionals and training on Sexual Assault Prevention and Response...something every military member goes through on an annual basis.
Now when many of them are talking about dress...I'd tend to error with them on the side of caution.
A good hypothetical experiment ...
You do good recognizing that this would never happen. Such an experiment would be highly unethical and no one would allow it.
Obviously this experiment is nearly impossible to preform. A more realistic experiment would be measuring the "attention factor" each outfit has for a group of similar looking women. So instead of measuring rape incidences, you would record the number of times each clothing class gets approached and hit on by a guy.
Let me say...I'm glad you're thinking about this scientifically. However, the main problem is you suffer from a fatal methodological error: you're not measuring rape incidences. You're measuring something else and including, as a vast majority of your data points, the interest of non-rapists. So this study would provide no useful responses.
Now what could be studied:
* prison interviews with convicted rapists
* interviews with persons who have served their time for rape/SA
* interviews with victims on their rape (suffers from ethical and methodological dilemnas thought)
* have law enforcement record type of clothing (also suffers from some ethical dilemnas)
lol I hope you meant spandex, because latex is rather easy to rip.
-- The attractiveness/sluttiness of the clothing is a seperate issue. June Cleaver in her conservative, Stepford Wives sundress would be easier to rape than a submissive wearing a latex body suit (as long as their is no zipper in the crotch).
True...but you've got to cut/pierce it first. The point I was trying to make though, is taking it off can be very difficult...and may provide a disincentive despite being very overtly sexual in nature.
But you are correct that it could become easily cut in a struggle and then be easily torn off.
And the price to be paid? Put yourself in a woman's shoes, your mission of the night is to grab the attention and hook up with a specific cute guy you had in mind. You go to a frat party (where is it customary for Sorority members to dress high class, so every girl is in a dress) and you show up in jeans. Not only will you blown off by the one guy you were aiming for, but ridiculed and kicked out from the party.
Hate to break it to you...but I'd still encourage my daughter (who will be going to college in four years) not to dress in a way that makes her vulnerable. Furthermore, I'm going to talk with her about joining a sorority and try and disuade her from it. Because if she has to dress a certain way to get that cute guy...then he's not good enough for her.
I want my daughter to have the self-esteem that means that her self-worth is not a component of what she wears but who she is. I'm pretty sure that you can tell by now that I am college educated. So I've very well versed in multiple aspects of the college social scene. There are alternatives to sororities and frat parties where she can find the same level of social gratification as frats and sororities.
Furthermore, I have been to frat parties. And guess what? Outside of formals...I've seen girls in jeans. Designer, high-class, tight-fitting jeans. And guess what else? They were getting hit on just like the girls dressed in mini-skirts or dresses.
So this point fails.
As for the bar scene the same idea applies. A girl dressed in jeans will be outcompeted by a girl dressed classy or stunning on a night out.
Again...maybe FSU is different from St. Louis U, U of S. Carolina, U of Mo, or some of the other college nightlife scenes I've been around between 1993-2008. But the type of clothing does not matter...how she pulls it off does. If you're an attractive girl, you're going to get attention. Regardless of what you're wearing.
Regardless, a predator will choose a victim who appears the most VULNERABLE.
And clothing helps make you vulnerable if it facilitates the rape. You have not addressed this point but danced around it.
I haven't accused you of blaming women for being raped or anything along those lines. The idea that the mechanics of women's clothing is a deciding factor in a predator's stalking process is just not true.
Umm...its truthfulness has not been confirmed academically or scientifically. So you are technically correct. On the other hand...you have the professional opinion of people who deal with rape as part of their jobs saying it is a factor.
Secondly, it is not just about the predator's 'stalking process'. It is about how vulnerable the girl is in the situation. In the event of a rape attempt...will her clothing work for or against her.
Just saying something is not true does not make it not true. Nor does it address the point you are trying to counter.
If you wan't women to protect themselves from being raped, there are much more effective measures they can take rather than the clothing they wear. Not drinking too much or drinking anything that's not yours, don't isolate yourself, keep your phone with you, always go out and leave with your group of friends, make sure you're familiar with the place you're going to, learn how to defend yourself, etc.
Those are other measures, measures that I do advocate and support.
But simply stating them does not make them relevant to the discussion of the effectiveness of dressing defensively. So at this point my argument still stands.